If I Were to Rework: Archwing

[Rehtael7]

Again, a disclaimer to any moderators, this concept is a VERY in-depth rework, so I'd appreciate it if it were not moved to feedback. Thank you.

PREFACE:

Spoiler

I HATE Archwing. It is the most frustratingly boring experience in Warframe, and yes, I do mean the MOST boring thing in Warframe. My strong feelings on this mode are part of the reason why everything I say has to go through moderators these days. It's the worst. I love space combat a lot, and this mode is the worst example of space combat I've ever touched.

ISSUES (That I have)

Spoiler

Archwing currently feels like underwater combat. That's probably why it's used for underwater combat. Let me explain why Archwing feels boring:

The optimal way to fight is to either A) remain stationary while pointing at enemies that move straight at you very slowly B) move toward enemies and press melee as fast as you can, letting the game do the rest.

The melee weapons are all basically the same. You mash the melee key and things die. That's it.

The enemies are stupid. They just flight straight at you like skulls in doom, only slower.

The minimap is uselss. Now that the camera rotates properly, the minimap no longer acts as a guide in any capacity. A new 3D minimap, or radar is required.

The environments suck. Most of the maps on corpus tilesets have really poor collision detection, causing you to crash into invisible walls and such.

The guns make no sense. Why is a gauss sniper rifle projectile, when everything else is hitscan? That's broken as hell!

Warframe's version of space combat is not space combat, it's just a third person shooter without gravity.

SOLUTION(S)

Spoiler

Currently space acts more like water. I'd advise turning off inertia dampening, that is to say, if I floor it in a direction, I'll keep flying in that direction until I reverse. This allows for Luftrauser-like combat, in which you are firing independent of your movement. It also causes archwing in space to behave more like an actual object rather than an inertia-less jetpack. The camera will also need to be closer to the player, and strictly over the shoulder. Afterburners should now be a short burst to accommodate the lack of inertial dampening.

Next make every weapon besides the velocitus a projectile weapon. This means players will have to lead their targets while moving, creating more engaging combat.

With the new movement system, make every melee attack a large sweeping strike and have each one follow a different pattern, creating diversity in a stanceless melee category. They will also use unique reticles that indicate the direction of swing, and change color or shape when a target is within range.

As an example: Veritux will have a shorter, but faster wide horizontal swing, Knux will swing straight forward, Rathbone will swing in a vertical line, Kaszas will have a longer ranger diagonal swing, etc. Arch melee damage starts at its current value and deals more damage based on momentum.

Enemies will now move faster, some will use divebomb tactics, and will have a much larger turn radius. This will make them more difficult, and more dangerous targets that fly in less of a straight line.

 

FOMORIAN ASSAULT: Mission now has a timer before the Fomorian comes within range of relay defenses. Enemy spawns are now limited and increased. Killing units on your way to the Fomorian will now make assaulting the core easier. Once inside the core, the Fomorian will release Zepplens around the exits, to potentially trap Tenno hoping to escape the exploding core.

DEFENSE/ MOBILE DEFENSE: Now heavy units will come in to deal large amounts of damage to the objective. They will spawn further away and have an "Attack" waypoint affixed to them. This will encourage one or two players to seek and destroy the more distant danger, while one to two players guard against the immediate threat of smaller enemies.

 

That's all I've got for this one. I'll add more to it if I think of anything, or realize I forgot to add something. I also highly encourage people to check out Luftrausers for its dogfighting mechanics, which don't directly translate to 3D, but are an interesting concept all the same.

 

[Transformau5]

43 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

Why is a gauss sniper rifle projectile, when everything else is hitscan? That's broken as hell!

(((Velocitus is technically a railgun, just like Lanka)))

I like the ideas, especially the melee suggestion; this also reminds me of the enemy reworks and AW mode improvements that DE did showcase, but never implemented, even though it's been a while since the release of SotR, which was supposed to be the rebirth of this mode.

[Rehtael7]

1 hour ago, Transformau5 said:

(((Velocitus is technically a railgun, just like Lanka)))

I like the ideas, especially the melee suggestion; this also reminds me of the enemy reworks and AW mode improvements that DE did showcase, but never implemented, even though it's been a while since the release of SotR, which was supposed to be the rebirth of this mode.

(Last I checked the velocitus uses magnetic coils to fire a projectile faster than a conventional firearm, hence its magnetic damage, which would make sense considering it's name is derived from the word Velocity. And considering it's a sniper type weapon which should be boasting accuracy, power AND range, it would make sense in-game if it offered an advantage over standard guns in the range department, not a disadvantage as it currently does.)

And thanks! I'd really like to see the mode become something worth playing, not just the same gameplay as what we already have - gravity.

[Akavakaku]

I like these ideas overall, especially inertia, but I strongly disagree with the zoomed-in camera. We had that for a while after the archwing rework due to a bug, and it was awful, at least for me. 

I also hope that projectile weapons can be affected by the velocities of the characters. I.E., non-hitscan, non-explosive weapons deal more damage when you and your target are approaching, and less when you're becoming more distant. 

Eliminating outside noises would also help the space-y feel, they could be replaced with a sort of "audio HUD" that alerts you when enemies attack you or you hit them. 

[Rehtael7]

4 hours ago, Akavakaku said:

I like these ideas overall, especially inertia, but I strongly disagree with the zoomed-in camera. We had that for a while after the archwing rework due to a bug, and it was awful, at least for me. 

I also hope that projectile weapons can be affected by the velocities of the characters. I.E., non-hitscan, non-explosive weapons deal more damage when you and your target are approaching, and less when you're becoming more distant. 

Eliminating outside noises would also help the space-y feel, they could be replaced with a sort of "audio HUD" that alerts you when enemies attack you or you hit them. 

I agree that the narrowed vision can be an issue, but it's also a massive issue when your character model takes up half the screen, particularly if we're talking about needing to lead your targets in a three dimensional space. The camera either needs to be moved further horizontally from the player (Which can cause issues when flying in cramped spaces) or move it closer to the target (Which can cause motion sickness issues in more limited cases.)

And I think it could get very complex if non-hitscan weapons' damage changed with velocity, both from a gameplay perspective and a programming perspective.

I agree that a lack of audio makes it feel more authentic, but it doesn't result in the game feeling more satisfying. And when trying to make an un-fun mode fun, we need to preserve the satisfaction factor.

I appreciate the feedback!

[Akavakaku]

16 hours ago, Rehtael7 said:

I agree that the narrowed vision can be an issue, but it's also a massive issue when your character model takes up half the screen, particularly if we're talking about needing to lead your targets in a three dimensional space. The camera either needs to be moved further horizontally from the player (Which can cause issues when flying in cramped spaces) or move it closer to the target (Which can cause motion sickness issues in more limited cases.)

And I think it could get very complex if non-hitscan weapons' damage changed with velocity, both from a gameplay perspective and a programming perspective.

I agree that a lack of audio makes it feel more authentic, but it doesn't result in the game feeling more satisfying. And when trying to make an un-fun mode fun, we need to preserve the satisfaction factor.

I appreciate the feedback!

Yeah that makes sense, though I'd at least like the option of choosing the camera distance. 

[CandyManCriminal]

i didnt feel like this needed it own thread, so im leaving it here since this is an archwing issue

the radar really is just a useless hunk of crap
so instead why not something like

clearly im a professional artist, so i'll explain this complex piece /sarcasm
the dotted lines below/above the icons represent how far above/below your current position they are
the plane they point to rotates with you so "down" is always down on the radar 
 

[Rehtael7]

30 minutes ago, CandyManCriminal said:

i didnt feel like this needed it own thread, so im leaving it here since this is an archwing issue

the radar really is just a useless hunk of crap
so instead why not something like

clearly im a professional artist, so i'll explain this complex piece /sarcasm
the dotted lines below/above the icons represent how far above/below your current position they are
the plane they point to rotates with you so "down" is always down on the radar 
 

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I think we could use. Thanks for the post!

 

2 hours ago, Akavakaku said:

Yeah that makes sense, though I'd at least like the option of choosing the camera distance. 

Yeah, unless first person archwing becomes a thing (Which I strongly doubt) we'll probably have to keep trying to find creative solutions to the camera issue.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Rehtael7

[HitsuyonaKurarento]

Greetings Rehtael7! I've taken notice on your rework concept for the Corpus faction & I'm even starting to appreciate this rework as well. But... I wanna see if I can test your limits with a suggestion for another rework. Why not... Try your best to rework Stealth?

I wanted to see what you can do with a (hopefully) reasonable challenge of a rework.

Before I get back in the game, here's 3 main goals That I think could be addressed with this suggested rework.

1. UI changes and/or additions that can provide information on the enemy's current state of awareness of our presence & also our visibility states.
2. Awards for completing certain missions (Exterminate, Spy, ETC) without any raised alarms & small mission-specific consequences for breaking stealth that can only be removed by ending the missions (regardless if you extract or quit from them).
3. Anything else that you can think of that can make a better stealth experience in Warframe.

Once you reach number 3 you are free to come up with any other ideas for this stealth rework for Warframe.

& that's pretty much it for me right now. Good luck to you!

[CandyManCriminal]

also increasing the size of drops would be helpful
nothing massive, but a 25-50% increase in size could be extremely helpful in locating drops as they're very hard to see from a distance and against the dark back drop of space

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

On 12/12/2016 at 9:14 AM, Rehtael7 said:

Again, a disclaimer to any moderators, this concept is a VERY in-depth rework, so I'd appreciate it if it were not moved to feedback. Thank you.

PREFACE:

  Hide contents

I HATE Archwing. It is the most frustratingly boring experience in Warframe, and yes, I do mean the MOST boring thing in Warframe. My strong feelings on this mode are part of the reason why everything I say has to go through moderators these days. It's the worst. I love space combat a lot, and this mode is the worst example of space combat I've ever touched.

ISSUES (That I have)

  Hide contents

Archwing currently feels like underwater combat. That's probably why it's used for underwater combat. Let me explain why Archwing feels boring:

The optimal way to fight is to either A) remain stationary while pointing at enemies that move straight at you very slowly B) move toward enemies and press melee as fast as you can, letting the game do the rest.

The melee weapons are all basically the same. You mash the melee key and things die. That's it.

The enemies are stupid. They just flight straight at you like skulls in doom, only slower.

The minimap is uselss. Now that the camera rotates properly, the minimap no longer acts as a guide in any capacity. A new 3D minimap, or radar is required.

The environments suck. Most of the maps on corpus tilesets have really poor collision detection, causing you to crash into invisible walls and such.

The guns make no sense. Why is a gauss sniper rifle projectile, when everything else is hitscan? That's broken as hell!

Warframe's version of space combat is not space combat, it's just a third person shooter without gravity.

SOLUTION(S)

  Hide contents

Currently space acts more like water. I'd advise turning off inertia dampening, that is to say, if I floor it in a direction, I'll keep flying in that direction until I reverse. This allows for Luftrauser-like combat, in which you are firing independent of your movement. It also causes archwing in space to behave more like an actual object rather than an inertia-less jetpack. The camera will also need to be closer to the player, and strictly over the shoulder. Afterburners should now be a short burst to accommodate the lack of inertial dampening.

Next make every weapon besides the velocitus a projectile weapon. This means players will have to lead their targets while moving, creating more engaging combat.

With the new movement system, make every melee attack a large sweeping strike and have each one follow a different pattern, creating diversity in a stanceless melee category. They will also use unique reticles that indicate the direction of swing, and change color or shape when a target is within range.

As an example: Veritux will have a shorter, but faster wide horizontal swing, Knux will swing straight forward, Rathbone will swing in a vertical line, Kaszas will have a longer ranger diagonal swing, etc. Arch melee damage starts at its current value and deals more damage based on momentum.

Enemies will now move faster, some will use divebomb tactics, and will have a much larger turn radius. This will make them more difficult, and more dangerous targets that fly in less of a straight line.

 

FOMORIAN ASSAULT: Mission now has a timer before the Fomorian comes within range of relay defenses. Enemy spawns are now limited and increased. Killing units on your way to the Fomorian will now make assaulting the core easier. Once inside the core, the Fomorian will release Zepplens around the exits, to potentially trap Tenno hoping to escape the exploding core.

DEFENSE/ MOBILE DEFENSE: Now heavy units will come in to deal large amounts of damage to the objective. They will spawn further away and have an "Attack" waypoint affixed to them. This will encourage one or two players to seek and destroy the more distant danger, while one to two players guard against the immediate threat of smaller enemies.

 

That's all I've got for this one. I'll add more to it if I think of anything, or realize I forgot to add something. I also highly encourage people to check out Luftrausers for its dogfighting mechanics, which don't directly translate to 3D, but are an interesting concept all the same.

 

I agree with most of what you say but I do think that with the current gyroscope players should be able to lock it in order to gain better control cause on playstation it is absolutely horrid.

[Rehtael7]

4 hours ago, GigantEdge said:

Greetings Rehtael7! I've taken notice on your rework concept for the Corpus faction & I'm even starting to appreciate this rework as well. But... I wanna see if I can test your limits with a suggestion for another rework. Why not... Try your best to rework Stealth?

I wanted to see what you can do with a (hopefully) reasonable challenge of a rework.

Before I get back in the game, here's 3 main goals That I think could be addressed with this suggested rework.

1. UI changes and/or additions that can provide information on the enemy's current state of awareness of our presence & also our visibility states.
2. Awards for completing certain missions (Exterminate, Spy, ETC) without any raised alarms & small mission-specific consequences for breaking stealth that can only be removed by ending the missions (regardless if you extract or quit from them).
3. Anything else that you can think of that can make a better stealth experience in Warframe.

Once you reach number 3 you are free to come up with any other ideas for this stealth rework for Warframe.

& that's pretty much it for me right now. Good luck to you!

Not tonight because I just got back from a city that's an hour and a half drive away and it's about 10 at night at the time of writing this, but I'd love to give the stealth rework a pass. The issue is AI behaviors can get very tricky in terms of keeping a game running smoothly. The more complex the AI, the fewer of them need to be around at once for the game to run well. Not only that but most of the current tiles (Almost all of them) are TERRIBLE for supporting stealth gameplay. The other major issue is incentivizing stealth gameplay in a fast paced multiplayer environment. Generally speaking the best way to do stealth is solo and for good reason. So a stealth rework would honestly need to happen in the following forms: AI rework, Tile rework, Stealth System rework, "Stealth" weapon rework, Stealth incentive rework.

Oh, I guess I should mention I typed all this out after only reading the first two lines you wrote. But yeah, it's a very complex SERIES of things that need to be fixed, not just "the stealth system"

3 hours ago, CandyManCriminal said:

also increasing the size of drops would be helpful
nothing massive, but a 25-50% increase in size could be extremely helpful in locating drops as they're very hard to see from a distance and against the dark back drop of space

That is a VERY good point, however I think it would be best to just place a gigantic vacuum on the archwings. This is not a mode where pickups should even cross your mind.

[CandyDragon]

Easy fix for Archwing:

Redesign the levels to encourage moving around them rather than colliding and halting all momentum. The biggest flaw with archwing is that the levels are tedious to navigate. You cannot move around in any of the interesting ship maps. 

[Transformau5]

On 12.12.2016 at 8:18 PM, Rehtael7 said:

(Last I checked the velocitus uses magnetic coils to fire a projectile faster than a conventional firearm, hence its magnetic damage, which would make sense considering it's name is derived from the word Velocity. And considering it's a sniper type weapon which should be boasting accuracy, power AND range, it would make sense in-game if it offered an advantage over standard guns in the range department, not a disadvantage as it currently does.)

...And does Velocitus use coils at all? All I can see is the barrel. The only difference between railguns and gauss guns is the way of creating magnetic fields: gauss guns use coils, while railguns run electricity along the barrel.

[Rhekemi]

I've always wondered why the scroll wheel doesn't simply zoom the camera in and out when in AW mode. 

I'll make you a GIF of that from DCUO or something later. 

Maybe the wheel wouldn't work here since it's bound to scrolling our powers, but something similar is needed. I agree with some aspects of this post, overall, and now I want to play that game (but won't).

[Rehtael7]

4 hours ago, Transformau5 said:

...And does Velocitus use coils at all? All I can see is the barrel. The only difference between railguns and gauss guns is the way of creating magnetic fields: gauss guns use coils, while railguns run electricity along the barrel.

Railguns run the projectile along a rail, and if the barrel is wrapped in magnetic coils, it's a coilgun. Also note the innate magnetic damage.

[FoxFX]

It is an impressive take on the analysis as well as your suggestions to improve them. I commend those that take initiative to make fan concepts that address problems in the game and think up ways to improve them.

 

For gameplay control in Archwing, I believe it would be advised to remove weapon switching in Archwing. While it has been a useful tool in land combat in Warframe, Archwing only has 2 weapons to use: Arch-Guns and Arch-Blades. As there is little reason for Channeling Attacks as well as Combo Counter System in Archwing remaining the same as the Land Combat in Warframe, it would apear to some as a QoL change.

 

If there would be enough time for [DE], they could add in content that would create some level of importance into Archwing lorewise and mission-wise. However, there are some additional things I would like to mention some day about the weak implementation of the current Archwing Missions.