Simulor Nerf

[Tyrian3k]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

Actually all of her abilities aside from sleight of hand are fine. So I guess excalibur needs another rework too because people only use exalted blade and blind, loki needs a rework because all he does is invis and disarm.

Yes, if abilities aren't used, that's an example of an ability that is quite literally useless, so reworking them would be something to consider.

People use all of Lokis abilities, though. Decoy+Switch teleport is a common way to move past obstacles in spy missions.

12 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

So nothing you have suggested would be a good idea. 

At least I suggested something instead of just whining like you are currently doing.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

8 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

Yes, if abilities aren't used, that's an example of an ability that is quite literally useless, so reworking them would be something to consider.

People use all of Lokis abilities, though. Decoy+Switch teleport is a common way to move past obstacles in spy missions.

At least I suggested something instead of just whining like you are currently doing.

Saying that it's fine as is isn't whining, but keep crying kid.

[laysonbaal]

Mirage isn't the issue.

I run my synoid simulor with rhino in a Roar build and I pretty much explode all lvl 100 mobs around.

Same happens with Chroma in a vex armor build.

Simulor is just way too OP, it doesn't even require you to aim at the mobs to kill them...

Not just that but it has infinite ammo reserve if you have a Carrier with it's ammo mutation mod equipped.

Edited January 7, 2017 by laysonbaal

[KingNoobsta]

12 hours ago, radastir said:

Schopenhauer has even written a book about it: "Eristic Dialectic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right

And now u gave them a book

[radastir]

8 hours ago, KingNoobsta said:

And now u gave them a book

They would not understand it anyways...

Edited January 7, 2017 by radastir

[BBYipho]

Really if you effectively want to see less of the weapon just removed the distance in which the energy ball absorbs into eachother. This removes the no aim issue that makes this weapon overly effective. Less people would use it if they have to actually aim for the last ball of energy. I don't think the damage needs to be nerfed or the range. Just this feature that makes everyone extra lazy. In turn probably buff the individual explosions with alt fire if this happens.

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:06 AM, KyoBladezen said:

Ben, that's just going to cause more power creep. Nerfs are important to maintaining game balance. 

Well I'd prefer not to see a game I actually like just go on a nerf spree like Bungie did with Destiny.

[Bryntwulf]

On 1/7/2017 at 5:33 PM, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

Well I'd prefer not to see a game I actually like just go on a nerf spree like Bungie did with Destiny.

Sometimes those nerf sprees are absolutely necessary for keeping a game alive. Sure, Bungie did it badly, but that doesnt mean that DE will do it badly as well. 

[Soketsu]

Hey look, simulor + mirage nerf to oblivion thread number 186.

 

Btw it's fashion again to ask for this nerf, the other ones are not swag anymore ?

Edited January 11, 2017 by Soketsu

[Elyann]

On 23/12/2016 at 2:51 PM, ClockworkSpectre said:

yeah, and it is also boring as hell to have one on your team. 

 

If anything needs a nerf in this game its the (synoid)simulor.

Does it ?
The simulor itself is supposed to have to shoot 4 orbs in order to create a singularity....otherwise simulor is an average / slightly bad weapon.
The point is that combined with Mirage' Hall of mirrors it becomes really strong due to the fact it gets those 4 orbs at every shot.
You can not however just nerf the simulor or nerf mirage cause they are both balanced if not used in conjunction the one with the other....they should simply not make the orbs shot by Mirage's doppledangers not stack and create a singularity.

[Vermitore]

24 minutes ago, Elyann said:

Does it ?
The simulor itself is supposed to have to shoot 4 orbs in order to create a singularity....otherwise simulor is an average / slightly bad weapon.
The point is that combined with Mirage' Hall of mirrors it becomes really strong due to the fact it gets those 4 orbs at every shot.
You can not however just nerf the simulor or nerf mirage cause they are both balanced if not used in conjunction the one with the other....they should simply not make the orbs shot by Mirage's doppledangers not stack and create a singularity.

Better idea - one that has been raised before - send those who are complaining about the matter to fight some high level enemies. Problem solved.

[Elyann]

2 hours ago, Vermitore said:

Better idea - one that has been raised before - send those who are complaining about the matter to fight some high level enemies. Problem solved.

I like this idea

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

23 hours ago, Vermitore said:

Better idea - one that has been raised before - send those who are complaining about the matter to fight some high level enemies. Problem solved.

It's Always The Guys In LVL 10 Defenses who are complaining! HAHA!

[DreamsmithJane]

On 1/11/2017 at 10:00 AM, Vermitore said:

Better idea - one that has been raised before - send those who are complaining about the matter to fight some high level enemies. Problem solved.

Define "high level". People still spam the crap out of this thing in sorties.

On 1/11/2017 at 9:35 AM, Elyann said:

Does it ?
The simulor itself is supposed to have to shoot 4 orbs in order to create a singularity....otherwise simulor is an average / slightly bad weapon.
The point is that combined with Mirage' Hall of mirrors it becomes really strong due to the fact it gets those 4 orbs at every shot.
You can not however just nerf the simulor or nerf mirage cause they are both balanced if not used in conjunction the one with the other....they should simply not make the orbs shot by Mirage's doppledangers not stack and create a singularity.

Mirage gets 3, not 4. Only 2 of her holograms shoot. More to the point, as has been said and ignored countless times in these discussions, the singularities don't matter. Only the merge damage does. People defending Synoid Simulor don't seem to understand why it's effective. Yes, Mirage gets three times as much as everyone else, but that doesn't stop anyone else from spamming it. I've seen plenty of Embers and Ashes carrying the thing and spraying it all over the place. To be fair, the regular Simulor isn't so bad, but the Synoid has such a massive AoE that nobody using it even bothers to aim. They fire non-stop while they run. I'm just relieved that they at least turned down the gain on that awful noise.

[Elyann]

7 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Define "high level". People still spam the crap out of this thing in sorties.

Mirage gets 3, not 4. Only 2 of her holograms shoot. More to the point, as has been said and ignored countless times in these discussions, the singularities don't matter. Only the merge damage does. People defending Synoid Simulor don't seem to understand why it's effective. Yes, Mirage gets three times as much as everyone else, but that doesn't stop anyone else from spamming it. I've seen plenty of Embers and Ashes carrying the thing and spraying it all over the place. To be fair, the regular Simulor isn't so bad, but the Synoid has such a massive AoE that nobody using it even bothers to aim. They fire non-stop while they run. I'm just relieved that they at least turned down the gain on that awful noise.

Again...
Even though honestly....I don't see the problem with it...

It takes "x" orbs to create a singularity ( or black hole / aoe / vortex / however you want to call it ) , now....this makes the simulor be kinda balanced as a weapon....unless it's paired with Mirage and her Hall of Mirrors which makes the orbs stack and immediately create a singularity.
Mirage on the other hand is pretty balanced too so nor her nor the simulor can actually be nerfed.

Every frame  happens to have a "weapon of choice"  ( Valk , Excal , Rhino will usually go melee for example...saryn & ember will stick with Ignis..and so on.. ) simply because that weapon happens to optimize their abilities power , it's more or less the same concept as using role specific gear on some character whose skills and stats favor said role ( you'll try to play a dps as a dps , a healer as a healer , a tank as a tank....trying to make them be as efficient as possible in said profession).

Let's even suppose Mirage's Hall of Mirrors was scripted in a specific way not to let simulor's orbs stack ,which I believe it's unnecessary, she'd still be dealing much more damage than anyone else using the same weapon...because it's Hall of Mirror's effect....it will still be 3x hits vs any Ash / Ember / whoever's 1 hit.
Give Mirage a Soma , give her a tonkor , give her akstilettos, any weapon will do more damage than it would in any other frame's hands...and that will not be fixed as it's not supposed to be.

Talking about the AoE effect, the same thing could be done with any syndacate weapon. Does the sancti tigris need a nerf simply cause I can use it in conjunction with Mirage ? No.
Would it require some more attention in order to aim ? Maybe...it would depend on the weapon , we can't nerf all weapons that don't require the player to aim cause they can be sprayed/ they have a large area of effect...otherwise every grenade launcher / missile launcher / flamethrower / close range automatic weapon would have no reason to exist.

Outdamaging a Mirage using a simulor is actually quite easy for any skilled player .
It can be done with Ash , with Excal , Valk , Saryn , Rhino , Ember , Nidus , Mag , hell...I've seen people doing it with Loki who's not even a dps frame.
It only requires some skill and a weapon that's not at level 0 , non catalyzed or forma'd...

I don't mind if the simulor is going to get a "mirage only" nerf....but I still don't believe it's necessary.

That said...even though the question wasn't for me...if you are bringing a mirage to sortie it means you have to know how she's played ( to take advantage of her blind / traps / light & dark aura / hall of mirrors, even in order  not to get one shot ) or you are most likely going to get wrecked in a couple of minutes, no matter the weapon you use....and I honestly don't think I'd mind to see a skilled player using a simulor rather than any other weapon....let it even be a sicarus prime...everyone is free to use what they want...WF is a preference based game.
 

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Elyann said:

It takes "x" orbs to create a singularity ( or black hole / aoe / vortex / however you want to call it ) , now....this makes the simulor be kinda balanced as a weapon....unless it's paired with Mirage and her Hall of Mirrors which makes the orbs stack and immediately create a singularity.
Mirage on the other hand is pretty balanced too so nor her nor the simulor can actually be nerfed.

Again, the singularities are not the point. They don't matter. The goal is to merge orbs as rapidly as possible. Yes, Mirage is better at this than any other frame, but her ability to make singularities faster is totally irrelevant. The point is that the weapon's design encourages the player to spam, no matter which frame they're using. The problem isn't Mirage using it. The problem is Synoid Simulor's inordinately large AoE on merge damage, and utter lack of risks or consequences. It's the same reason people have problems with the Tonkor, but taken to 11 (meters).

Yes, Mirage will get three times the output. That's what she does, and in fact, she does it even better with most other weapons. Yet you still see the weapon in the hands of other frames — frames, in fact, which are notorious for "press 4 to win". The point is that the weapon is used in exactly the same way as those frames have been used in the process of earning those reputations. And even without the synergy of Mirage, merely spamming it gets results without effort, thought, or risk. Have you ever followed behind a Synoid Simulor user (rather than charging ahead to out-pace them) and seen the trail of glowing lights at perfectly regular intervals in a straight bloody line? They literally just walk through the level while spamming left click, and everything automatically dies. And if you notice the glowing orbs left behind, often, none of them is a singularity, so no, the need to stack up several shots to make a singularity does not balance the weapon. It does not therefore require synergy with Hall of Mirrors to unbalance it. It is already unbalanced on its own.

It doesn't need to do less damage. The problem is that it has an unrivaled AoE, each instance of damage staggers enemies, there is no risk at all to the user, and it has ammo economy so efficient that it can be ignored. Given the way it works, adding self-damage is not appropriate, and staggering targets isn't really a problem as long as your target is not "the whole room". So the prime candidates for bringing it in line are its AoE and ammo economy. Reducing those even a little would go a long way towards reining in the spam. In return, I would like to see more value added to the singularities and detonations (so there's a reason to even try to use them). I don't want it "nerfed" to be strictly less powerful. I want it literally rebalanced relative to itself, so its damage isn't so frontloaded and mindless to deliver.

[Bryntwulf]

I would love to see DE give self-damage to the Simulor, just so I can watch someone get downed for being incredibly lazy with their spam. 

[Vermitore]

17 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Define "high level". People still spam the crap out of this thing in sorties.

Lv200. You can dip slightly below that, or go over by a small margin, but yeah, once each enemy becomes a challenge for in itself for the well-geared player, rather than a challenge only as part of a horde, then that is high level.

[Unholyrequiem]

It's okay nerf it and people will just use the telos boltace,  etc.

[DreamsmithJane]

2 hours ago, Vermitore said:

Lv200. You can dip slightly below that, or go over by a small margin, but yeah, once each enemy becomes a challenge for in itself for the well-geared player, rather than a challenge only as part of a horde, then that is high level.

I see. And why would any player ever face enemies of that level, given the current state of the game? Level 200 enemies are multiple times stronger than those found in sorties, raids, and kuva floods. They scale exponentially, without a cap, and there is no meaningful reward for challenging enemies that you call "high level". You can't just pick an arbitrary level of enemy and say, "Look! This weapon starts to fall off here!" because there needs to be a reason to expect that situation to actually come up when playing. Players pushing endless missions as far as they can is not a viable standard for game balance.

[Elyann]

8 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Again, the singularities are not the point. They don't matter. The goal is to merge orbs as rapidly as possible. Yes, Mirage is better at this than any other frame, but her ability to make singularities faster is totally irrelevant. The point is that the weapon's design encourages the player to spam, no matter which frame they're using. The problem isn't Mirage using it. The problem is Synoid Simulor's inordinately large AoE on merge damage, and utter lack of risks or consequences. It's the same reason people have problems with the Tonkor, but taken to 11 (meters).

Yes, Mirage will get three times the output. That's what she does, and in fact, she does it even better with most other weapons. Yet you still see the weapon in the hands of other frames — frames, in fact, which are notorious for "press 4 to win". The point is that the weapon is used in exactly the same way as those frames have been used in the process of earning those reputations. And even without the synergy of Mirage, merely spamming it gets results without effort, thought, or risk. Have you ever followed behind a Synoid Simulor user (rather than charging ahead to out-pace them) and seen the trail of glowing lights at perfectly regular intervals in a straight bloody line? They literally just walk through the level while spamming left click, and everything automatically dies. And if you notice the glowing orbs left behind, often, none of them is a singularity, so no, the need to stack up several shots to make a singularity does not balance the weapon. It does not therefore require synergy with Hall of Mirrors to unbalance it. It is already unbalanced on its own.

It doesn't need to do less damage. The problem is that it has an unrivaled AoE, each instance of damage staggers enemies, there is no risk at all to the user, and it has ammo economy so efficient that it can be ignored. Given the way it works, adding self-damage is not appropriate, and staggering targets isn't really a problem as long as your target is not "the whole room". So the prime candidates for bringing it in line are its AoE and ammo economy. Reducing those even a little would go a long way towards reining in the spam. In return, I would like to see more value added to the singularities and detonations (so there's a reason to even try to use them). I don't want it "nerfed" to be strictly less powerful. I want it literally rebalanced relative to itself, so its damage isn't so frontloaded and mindless to deliver.

Warframe kinda is a "press x button to win" game....it has always been....and the fact a few players started complaining about it is just a recent fact.
Trinity spams EV , Excal  exalted blade / blind , Saryn & spores , Ember & world on fire , Ash & bladestorm , Loki & invisibility....and I could go on listing every single frame's "meta" abilty...

In any case....yes, I've been following Mirages spamming simulor hits....and I did never feel disturbed by that unlike the majority of the people in this thread...I did even out-dps them in many cases ;
still, as I already said....if the simulor aoe range / damage / whatever it is gets nerfed ( even though I don't think it's as necessary as you all claim it to be ) I'm not going to care about it, there's tons of other weapons...op ones as non op ones.

[Tyrian3k]

5 hours ago, Elyann said:

and the fact a few players started complaining about it is just a recent fact.

No, it is not a recent fact. People have been complaining about "press 4 to win" since before the open beta even started.