The whole "It's a free game so stop complaining" people.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Irorone said:

Also saying that just because other games with the AAA moniker have lowered their bars doesn't mean the bars of measure here has changed when talking about warframe itself. 

If you are going to judge Warframe or any game by quality standards, then price and perceived value becomes one of those measures also.  How many games can you get as much value (playtime, etc) out of as you can with Warframe for the same price?  Not many if any.  I know that this is subjective for everyone.  I think it does matter when you consider everything. 

Now I do agree that the research cost of the Hema is high.  I also remember other games that have similar if not worse grind while still charging you to play.  Heck, Lineage 2 had/has a grind that's amazingly high while still charging monthly fees.  I can't comment on grind in WoW because I didn't play it.  Then there is grind in some single player games to unlock items/gear/costumes(Skyrim and Ninja Gaiden 3 come to mind).  Players have paid an upfront cost to play those games and still have a grind of sorts. 

When you compare cost, grind, and time/value of the games, where do you consider Warframe to be in comparison to other games?  Whenever I can get lots of playing time from a game with little money spent, I consider that a good value.  For me, Warframe is like a Ninja Gaiden with Guyver and Tenchu elements that I can play for free.   

Again, I'm not saying that "It's a free game" is a valid argument all the time, but it should be considered when used in the right context. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by DatDarkOne
corrected slightly

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

If you are going to judge Warframe or any game by quality standards, then price and value becomes one of those measures also.  How many games can you get as much value (playtime, etc) out of as you can with Warframe for the same price?  Not many if any.  I know that this is subjective for everyone.  I think it does matter when you consider everything.

Considering that I've spent more money on Warframe than virtually any other game I've ever played (in 35+ years!), does that mean I should have even higher expectations for it?

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Considering that I've spent more money on Warframe than virtually any other game I've ever played (in 35+ years!), does that mean I should have even higher expectations for it?

I'm kinda glad that you made this point.  I myself have spent quite a bit on Warframe also.  Here's the thing, neither of us had to do that to enjoy or play the game.  There really aren't that many games that offer the same.  I like to consider my spent money as donations to DE to help keep Warframe free for others.  :D

[Teadude]

Finally someone else who realizes this.

Sometimes i actually think people on here are indoctrined to think this game is perfect because it's free

[Irorone]

26 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

If you are going to judge Warframe or any game by quality standards, then price and perceived value becomes one of those measures also.  How many games can you get as much value (playtime, etc) out of as you can with Warframe for the same price?  Not many if any.  I know that this is subjective for everyone.  I think it does matter when you consider everything. 

Now I do agree that the research cost of the Hema is high.  I also remember other games that have similar if not worse grind while still charging you to play.  Heck, Lineage 2 had/has a grind that's amazingly high while still charging monthly fees.  I can't comment on grind in WoW because I didn't play it.  Then there is grind in some single player games to unlock items/gear/costumes(Skyrim and Ninja Gaiden 3 come to mind).  Players have paid an upfront cost to play those games and still have a grind of sorts. 

When you compare cost, grind, and time/value of the games, where do you consider Warframe to be in comparison to other games?  Whenever I can get lots of playing time from a game with little money spent, I consider that a good value.  For me, Warframe is like a Ninja Gaiden with Guyver and Tenchu elements that I can play for free.   

Again, I'm not saying that "It's a free game" is a valid argument all the time, but it should be considered when used in the right context. 

First my post about how warframe's own bars of quality shouldn't change because other games' bar of quality have changed.  TF2, Path of Exile, If we exclude toxicity a mass of MOBAS (Dota 2, League of Legends, Paragon), and probably more.  The FTP category has a lot of contenders Warframe's just one of the more notable out there.

Just because other games are worse doesn't mean Warframe has that much room to slip in terms of quality and makes feedback to prevent said slips in quality that much more important.  Also in most cases pay up front games do have less grind but on the Hema it's the change in the grind vs. cash that's gotten people's attention.

People have noticed that it's a free game.  So when people that there's a change in the ratio between free and not so free people have the right context to leave feedback and at least expect a rational answer if nothing else.

So to sum it up, just because other games are worse or have gotten worse doesn't mean warframe can do the same without expecting similar consequences.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Irorone

[DatDarkOne]

9 minutes ago, Irorone said:

So to sum it up, just because other games are worse or have gotten worse doesn't mean warframe can do the same without expecting similar consequences.

I agree.  We as players should make sure that we give quality feedback.  It has become too easy for good feedback to get lost in numerous rant posts.  A recent example of this is what has happened in the Hema topics. 

Nice to have a good debate for once on the forums.  I thank you Irorone for that.  :D

Edited December 30, 2016 by DatDarkOne
corrected slightly

[ChuckMaverick]

13 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm kinda glad that you made this point.  I myself have spent quite a bit on Warframe also.  Here's the thing, neither of us had to do that to enjoy or play the game.  There really aren't that many games that offer the same.  I like to consider my spent money as donations to DE to help keep Warframe free for others.  :D

No one individual Warframe player has to pay to play the game, but taken as a whole a reasonable proportion of the players need to pay or the game will fail financially. Using a F2P business model is not a decision companies take because they want to make less money, they do it in the expectation that it will give the best financial return for their game.

'Free' players are just as vital to a F2P game as paying players, and have just as much right to criticise.

Whether someone has paid or not, "it's a free game" is never a valid argument to rebut criticism.

[DatDarkOne]

36 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

'Free' players are just as vital to a F2P game as paying players, and have just as much right to criticise.

Whether someone has paid or not, "it's a free game" is never a valid argument to rebut criticism.

You have very good points in your post. 

It's use in the forums as valid really depends on argument being presented, and is very situational.  I don't think it should be used at all as a blanket argument against critique.

As to Steve's use of it, I can understand where he was coming from.  If I give you something and you are rude to me after receiving it, I would give a similar "bite the hand that feeds you" reply.  It's not the proper response to criticism, but it is a good response to rudeness.  :D

 

[(XBOX)I Killed brunts]

On 29/12/2016 at 0:10 AM, IKenofoxI said:

Just thought I'd mention that I've seen many people use that excuse to attempt debunking or countering valid arguments or feedback to the game. (In bold so that you know these are

not to be confused about flat out complaining with no proper basis) I believe that it's a very regressive act of anti-criticism and should be stopped.

I just wanted to say that warframe has a store that people can purchase items from. With people purchasing their product, for them their experience with this game would no longer be free.

They would have every right to make complains or voice their concerns.

As with people who play this game for free, indeed while it's a free game some people spend over thousands of hours into this game, which shows the company their marketing potentials with dedicated players spending time into their game. 

Rather than dismissing legitimate concerns over the game just because it's a free game, I think these people like them need to realize the importance of feedback people are attempting to give to this game to further improve it's experience.  Tldr:No. It's a free game so stop complaining is a bad argument and needs to be stopped because it's regressive.

Depends on the arguement being dismissed. Content additions. It's a free game, shut up and appreciate it. Player market prices? It's free and you can get Plat free, get over it. Prices of items in game for plat, they're game they're choice get over it. 

Going against their word, (Hema after saying grind reduction after Sibear) or outright lying. No, it's bad practise and morally wrong. Not bug fixing, making parts of the game glitchy or unplayable (Jordas) not ok. 

[TeaBegging]

You know what else is Free ?

Free speech, Should we all now shut our mouth and remain silent? Because hey its free ?

[ChuckMaverick]

6 minutes ago, TeaBegging said:

You know what else is Free ?

Free speech, Should we all now shut our mouth and remain silent? Because hey its free ?

Free speech isn't as free as most people think it is, and it often doesn't mean what they think it does either.

[shadrad]

There's nothing wrong with criticism, expressing disappointment, or reminding developers of things they've said that the community expects. However, from my viewpoint as a player who is ultimately a satisfied player and customer, I feel like the expectations many people have are often unrealistic, leading to their inevitable disappointment.

This isn't necessarily their fault, it's more a general lack of understanding of the actual workings of game development. From the outside, things that seem easy to fix are often just the opposite, but one wouldn't know that unless they were well versed in the inner workings of both the game and the company. This is true across many industries-- film, comics, art, technology, etc. 

I see a lot of these rant posts making assumptions with no factual basis about DE's motivation, capabilities, etc etc, and they go on and on as people work themselves up over things that have no facts backing them up, which seems foolish and a waste of energy (especially the ones that claim any percentage of the community thinks or says X, Y, or Z.). Again, not that people don't have the right to be upset and to talk about that, but lately it gets taken to such a ridiculous extreme that I honestly lose a lot of sympathy for them.

DE wants your feedback, and if people are feeling passionate about a given change, it's good for them to know and hear that. But there are ways to make those points and express that passion without being rude, paranoid, and incredibly dismissive of the work that DE does for you that you'll never see or hear about. Case in point, people complaining about how the Helminth Charger is 'just a regular charger', expecting a new model, animation, or something else? For what reason? Here is DE giving players something neat and different, and people are upset because it isn't AS neat or AS different as they'd hoped for. And especially the comparisons to TWW and earlier patches, as if they don't understand what kind of incredible burden DE put on itself for part 3 of TWW and that resources after a crunch like that are understandably thin. Not to mention, the turnaround times.

Personally, I wish people would realize there's a difference between saying "I really wish this was different" and "I don't like this, DE must hate us and never listens and are definitely scamming moneygrubbers". Therein lies my primary dissatisfaction with many player responses on the forums.

[Guest]

Something just sparked in my mind:

When I was playing WoW people on the forum said:

"You only paid $15 what you expect?"

 

I don't doubt people b*tchin is annoying, but the same thing goes to people who do this.

Spoiler

 

[Rhekemi]

On 12/29/2016 at 7:47 PM, MirageKnight said:

1. Agreed. Never said they didn't though.

Okay.

On 12/29/2016 at 7:47 PM, MirageKnight said:

2 & 3. Not quite as much as someone seem to think.

Subject to interpretation and facts we don't have, so speculation. I guess we'll just have to leave those points there.

On 12/29/2016 at 7:47 PM, MirageKnight said:

See, here's the thing. As callous as it may sound, I'm not going to play and fund a game that's going south due to bad decisions made by its dev studio, just because I feel sorry for its employees. 

[...]

 

I love this game...but I hate the direction it's heading in.

At no point in my post did I ever, once, say you (or anyone) should blindly support the game financially if you disagree with its direction.

That's a fundamental right of the consumer: vote with your wallet. If you're not a paying customer, speaking out, criticizing their choices (that are poor in your opinion) is also a great option (and is why "it's a free game, stop complaining" is nonsense in the face of real feedback).

What I did say, however, was that the notion that our decisions don't matter (or affect DE because of Leyou) was wrong.

Ironically, you actually proved my point the quoted post: you decide not to fund the game because you love it and don't like its direction. That is going to affect DE, and Leyou, and DE can either decide to change course, or continue on.

What they choose is up to them. We can only try and affect those choices through proper feedback and voting with our wallets.

On 12/29/2016 at 7:49 PM, trunks013 said:

First guys i want to apologies for my rly bad explaination ( i'm missing a lot of sleep so my translation skills are super bad )

 

So the TL:DR : "Stop complaining its a free game" is a sophism ( the false argument version of a spit in the face ) dont use it. But i honestly think that the root of the problem is non-constructive feedback , Bashing and personal attack. In the situation of a real constructive feedback "Stop complaining its a free game" Makes no sense at all. That why i never saw in 3 years of warframe "Stop doing constructive feedback its a free game" either.

 

Once again guys rly sorry for the big misunderstanding hope this will clarify the whole thing.

No worries, mate. And thanks for the tweet. That's about the best context to use "it's a free game" in.

On 12/30/2016 at 0:28 AM, Toppien said:

alright...heres another one then

so stop complaining about a free game...oh wait...

I honestly always laugh when I see this.

Does anyone actually take it seriously?

Didn't someone in the crowd shout it out and Steve (or someone) echoed it (during the Australia con a few months ago shortly before TWW's release) and then everyone laughed?

[MirageKnight]

30 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

At no point in my post did I ever, once, say you (or anyone) should blindly support the game financially if you disagree with its direction.

I wasn't implying that you were saying that, but I sincerely apologize if I gave you that impression. Also, what I said in that last wasn't directed at you exclusively. I was only voicing my feelings on the matter in general and trying to make myself clearer, nothing more.

Yes I do agree that perhaps in a small way, I might actually have some positive affect on the course this game is taking - even though my feedback coupled with my reluctance to support DE's actions financially might only amount to a mere drop in the bucket as it were and go unnoticed. Enough drops though and someone might notice.

I think it's important to note that people who decide to protest the direction a game is going by not supporting it financially should make it clear WHY they are taking this course of action, assuming they want the situation to get better. It sends a clearer message to the devs and the publisher that something is wrong with the game and that its player base really cares and only wants the best for the game and its devs. 

Simply saying "Screw it - I'm out." without offering a reason why and then bailing helps no one if you really care about the game's future. It only proves you don't care anymore.

Edited January 1, 2017 by MirageKnight

[Rhekemi]

Oh, I see. My bad for jumping to that conclusion, and thanks for the clarification. I agree overall.

[Fahrea]

I believe clicking play on it will put it at the proper time.

Since I'm too lazy to type up my opinions on these type of people, I will simply let this guy use his generated voice to do it for me.

 

Also, a someone elses screenshot

I do indeed love warframe, while I agree with a lot of things people are saying, it could be worded a bit nicer.

But because someone worded it like they had a stick shoved up their arse, doesn't mean it's any less valid. I think nullifying opinions is the biggest issue.

But that's just my 2 cents, what do I know?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Lysta

[--RV--Hyenah]

Valid feedback provided by the playerbase of a F2P game is as or more important than the feedback of the playerbase of a P2P game, as content delivery on a free to play title is way more important than on a P2P title. Once you paid for a P2P title, they have the money. Mabye not as much as they could, but the point remains.

True, some people are vocal about their issues with Warframe in a very "vivid" way, but the attitude of said people does not imply any risk for fair points aimed towards flaws and possible improvement for ingame content. When you don't like something, you should be vocal about it. That's the whole point of feedback. (This doesn't include people who send death threats to the devs, those toddlers can go f*** off for all I care.)

Some people might argue that people should also kiss DE's backline when they do something great, but I'd rather waste gargantuous amounts of plat on worthles cosmetics than post on the forums saying "wow de, good job, proud of you". Because that's my feedback. I like your content, I am going to invest time and ingame currency on said content.

NOTE: No, this game is not in beta, and DE or the playerbase saying that it is in beta is as close to be a bad joke as it is a lie. You don't charge real money for ingame content on a regular basis with your game being several years old with your game still being on beta. Stop using this as a counter point if you are actually using it. Please. It's sad.