HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Liminal]

19 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

Actually, it's more of a perspective than an opinion, which I believe he's just trying to get y'all to see from his point of view, but whatever...

At this point, no one is contributing anything new to this thread. All the facts and numbers and spreadsheets have been posted ad nauseum. There's nothing left to contribute. The point has been made, the facts presented, but DE is not budging. Now everyone is sour because Space Mom and Dad have put their foot down and said no. After 3+ months, 100 pages and 2500 replies, this thread is the equivalent of a ^(blubbering) teenager saying they hate their parents because they didn't get their way. Time to move on.

He's trying to dismiss our arguments by resorting to a ridiculous "it's no big deal" (ridiculous because it ignores all the arguments that "have been posted ad nauseum"), trying to shift the blame on those who called DE out on their BS. For some reason that user believes it's better to side with the devs on this matter, despite it being of absolutely no benefit to him.

No, it's not time to move on, and it won't be until a long time has passed without any more mistakes like this one, until we're sure they won't make a new Hema.
It's simple: we don't believe letting this go is the right move. They handled it wrong and their communication on this issue has been terrible (only referenced 2 or 3 times with flimsy excuses). If we forget about this chances are we'll have to go through the same thing again in the (not far) future.
That's why they have to be reminded of it in every single patch note. If we let it go the message they get is "they forgot about it, it's no longer a problem".

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

He's trying to dismiss our arguments by resorting to a ridiculous "it's no big deal" (ridiculous because it ignores all the arguments that "have been posted ad nauseum"), trying to shift the blame on those who called DE out on their BS. For some reason that user believes it's better to side with the devs on this matter, despite it being of absolutely no benefit to him.

No, it's not time to move on, and it won't be until a long time has passed without any more mistakes like this one, until we're sure they won't make a new Hema.
It's simple: we don't believe letting this go is the right move. They handled it wrong and their communication on this issue has been terrible (only referenced 2 or 3 times with flimsy excuses). If we forget about this chances are we'll have to go through the same thing again in the (not far) future.
That's why they have to be reminded of it in every single patch note. If we let it go the message they get is "they forgot about it, it's no longer a problem".

It's not DE's bs. They made it like that for a reason, you act as if they thought it was so evil to make it that high (15k for my clan before I farmed to finish it) and then made it high because of said thought.

It's your BS for not having it done already and still complaining about it months later. How petty is that? Most of these people already no-life this game because it's so great, and i'm sure you aren't an exception, so if you ever get bored while playing the game, why not farm? It's mere hours out of your way to get it done.

Then you'd understand what a piece of cake the research is. 

[Liminal]

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

It's not DE's bs. They made it like that for a reason, you act as if they thought it was so evil to make it that high (15k for my clan before I farmed to finish it) and then made it high because of said thought.

It's your BS for not having it done already and still complaining about it months later. How petty is that? Most of these people already no-life this game because it's so great, and i'm sure you aren't an exception, so if you ever get bored while playing the game, why not farm? It's mere hours out of your way to get it done.

Then you'd understand what a piece of cake the research is. 

Their excuse was literally "we cannot lower it because some people have already done it. We have to honor them". That excuse is complete and utter bullcrap. They haven't honored anything else ever except founder items (which included hard cash, so it's understandable in that case). Whatever reason they said they had for it didn't make sense if you dig a little bit.

I'd be full of it if I had given in and farmed it or bought it, but I didn't, because I don't support practices that aren't fair to the consumer.

Petty? Petty is punishing your playerbase because some guys have a ton of one resource (Sibear before this, for example). Since we are on it, petty is removing Sentient drops from a quest... petty is removing game content to sell it later as "Vault access" under the excuse of "dilution" even though my mother could come up with a better solution.

And no, it's not a piece of cake. I don't "power farm", I don't like being restricted to loot abilities in full parties (note: they said during a broadcast no resource requirement would ever be balanced around loot abilities.. yeah, right), I don't like being nudged towards buying boosters. I like playing the game just for fun, but while "just for fun" got me every single item in the game maxed out and MR23, it only meant 1500 mutagen samples in a 2-active-people ghost clan after 4 goddamn years (and quite a bit of money btw, I'm no freeloader).

So yes, it is DE's BS, because they are the ones who said "no loot caves", "it won't happen again" and "no loot abilities required", when in fact those were lies.

_{But again, everything I just said has been said a million times in this thread.}

Edited April 7, 2017 by The_Doc

[LazyKnight]

I think the amount a moon clan needs is just insane( i donated like 2k mutagen samples to the clan i am in and it basically counted for nothing in a moon clan). I understand DE wants a player to just buy the pack in the cash shop but Hema seriously is not worth grind required  at all.

Also, I purchased the Nidus collection because I did not want to do the quest then grind for nidus and Hema. I guess DE won lol....

Edited April 7, 2017 by LazyKnight

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

It's your BS for not having it done already and still complaining about it months later. How petty is that?

Your assumption contradicts multiple posts by people who farmed it and still think it's insane. Just a page before this one there is a post by @Buf00n, who is offering Hema and Ignis Wraith for free. But you still go for ''you didn't farm it yet? Stop complaining and farm''... How petty is that?

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

They made it like that for a reason,

Yeh. And before that they made every other Bio Lab research cost 10 times less combined!

There must have been a reason for that as well.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

so if you ever get bored while playing the game, why not farm? It's mere hours out of your way to get it done.

What logic is that?
So players should go do more boring farming when they get bored?

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

so if you ever get bored while playing the game, why not farm? It's mere hours out of your way to get it done.

Then you'd understand what a piece of cake the research is. 

Don't use any meta, loot frames, and boosters.
Then tell me what a piece of cake the research is.

[LazyKnight]

20 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Yeh. And before that they made every other Bio Lab research cost 10 times less combined!

There must have been a reason for that as well.

The people in my clan all but gave up donating. And the moon clan i am in has too many active players to downsize to reduce the cost. 

Its cost is so high, it has to be designed to make people give up and just buy. Or DE has some plan where they want the player base to unlock it sometime in 2018.

[Gamma745]

5 hours ago, Jobistober said:

At this point, no one is contributing anything new to this thread. All the facts and numbers and spreadsheets have been posted ad nauseum. There's nothing left to contribute. The point has been made, the facts presented, but DE is not budging. Now everyone is sour because Space Mom and Dad have put their foot down and said no. After 3+ months, 100 pages and 2500 replies, this thread is the equivalent of a ^(blubbering) teenager saying they hate their parents because they didn't get their way. Time to move on.

Agreed. Both sides have been too salty with the other side, and DE not saying anything. Really, it's time to just move on, play as you like, and practically ignore Hema. And hope DE doesn't do this kind of thing again. Not healthy for the playerbase.

Those who think it's ridiculous, you're free to stand with your boycott. Or help with the Hema sharing:

Those who think it's okay, go ahead and stand happy with your bragging rights. That's what you want, isn't it?

[Slayer116]

4 x 100 = 400 an hour it may be hard but it could be a lot worse.

[Ditto132]

5 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Agreed. Both sides have been too salty with the other side, and DE not saying anything. Really, it's time to just move on, play as you like, and practically ignore Hema. And hope DE doesn't do this kind of thing again. Not healthy for the playerbase.

Those who think it's ridiculous, you're free to stand with your boycott. Or help with the Hema sharing:

Those who think it's okay, go ahead and stand happy with your bragging rights. That's what you want, isn't it?

Who started the salt? Who is not contributing to this thread?
When some people spent time and effort to get the facts and number beforing coming to conclusion and proposing viable solutions that would make clan better and prevent issues that we see from this Hema issue. Some people who already researched Hema, gotten Hema and could already ignore this issue, still trying to make Warframe better for the others and new players.

When some people who don't see the issue, just outright dismiss those facts and number with baseless claims such as "just want to get it now", "just being lazy", and doesn't contribute any viable solutions except for work-around and bypass such as "just buy with plat", "join a clan with Hema", "farm with loot frames and boosers".

If you belong to the second group, make sure you maintain this obnoxious attitude even for those issues that affected you. Keep on living in delusion.
Don't ever complain about things being OP, don't suggest nerfs and buffs, leave things as it is currently at.
Tonkor and Simulor don't need nerf, weak frames don't need buffs, weapons and frames don't need reworks.
Limbo and Octavia is ok as it is right now, no need to have changes.
No need for Octavia sound sliders too, why bother, just don't play with people using Octavia, or mute your sounds.
No need for Damage 3.0, you have Riven mods.
No need to change armor scaling, just use 3-4 Corrosive Projection in your team.
No need for new contents and skins. Bored? Don't worry, you will find something to do, or like someone said "go farm".
What UI issues, just change your resolution and change your monitor.
What performance issue, what memory leaks. Just buy more memory and get better computer.
Why ask for quest replay. Just create a new account and play it again, saves DE so much work and avoid the many quest progression bugs.
Rewards not given when host migration occurs. It's ok, just play the mission again. It is a minority issue. Well, you can alway go solo too..

Just accept them. Since you prefer to be in delusion and I am sure you can come up with solutions excuses to bypass these issues and don't see the need to solve the issues.

Yeah, some players already moved on... to other games. Leaving Warframe to rot...

 

[Gamma745]

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

 - snip -

Yes, some people have already come up with multitude of solutions:

- Outright reducing the cost

- Increase the mutagen drop rate

- Make research materials drop from respective factions instead of planets

- Make the cost scale with the actual number of member / active member

- Give clan leader the tool to see clan contribution

- Make a time-contribution relation to the research (more people contributed, the faster the research)

- Anything I missed?

 

And those who defended the cost gave a (honestly absurd) suggestions:

- Get a full squad of Nekros, Hydroid, Speed Nova to the Derelict

- Get resource booster.

 

I can see both sides, and I already saw (not directly) what the cost did to some people:

- Major kick / exploit of Clan members

- Plat fee to enter a clan

- People OUTRIGHT LEAVING from the game.

 

And whoever said I agreed with this? Honestly speaking, the cost is anything but sane. My clan is only gone up to 4.5k/15k. Since my clan is mostly made up of newbies/low-MRs, I can just forget finishing Hema. Those who are "veterans", loosely speaking, in my clan have no interest in it. They still contribute and play, just on other stuff (Tenora, Pigments).

 

But the sad fact is, just like the thread title, DE refused to do anything! When was the last time we hear DE say anything? Even when people mentioned it on Devstreams or Prime Time, DE didn't even took notice.

Now we are practically screaming at each other, trying to convince the other side to agree with us. Those who agreed with the cost wouldn't even listen, and those who gave data to back up their arguments for alleviating the grind refused to stop.

 

Honestly, I think this thread has gone long enough. DE, and the Hema (grind) supporters, refused to listen, even when it is for the good of their own game.

All I wanted to hear, is just one statement from DE. Something they won't turn back on, much like how they won't budge on Founders items:

That they will not make anything requiring Hema.

No research with Hema as the requirement, no weapon that will use Hema as the ingredient.

 

Until they manage to alleviate the grind somehow, I hope those two things will never happen.

 

If they still wished to continue with this, then let them.

I suspect I might get banned for saying this, but if they wish to crash and burn, then by all mean, let them. They think it's a good thing to do, right? I quite believe in learning the hard way. Experience is the best teacher, right? Let us see how many people are willing to support them with the insane grind. That will be their hard data.

As for us, I agree that it will be a little sad when the game is shut down. But as you said, Warframe is not the only game in our life. Warframe is not our life. We will move on, with or without Warframe.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Gamma745

[Ditto132]

5 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

And whoever said I agreed with this? Honestly speaking, the cost is anything but sane.

My post was actually addressing everyone, not just you.
I just don't want you and those who contributed to lose hope and give up.

I know what you are trying to do, but your "crazy idea" wouldn't really convince Hema cost defender and have resulted conflict with people who are on your side.

Waiting for DE to do something about it. Because any future new clans would definitely hit this Hema issue and notice the discrepancy with other researches.

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

Waiting for DE to do something about it. Because any future new clans would definitely hit this Hema issue and notice the discrepancy with other researches.

Not clans. Players.

Before Hema I could honestly say that it's possible for a new player to get every item but vaulted primes and event items without spending money or joining any groups.

Public matchmaking is quite sufficient to get through missions that are difficult to solo for a new player with limited equipment. Research materials could be acquired through normal game play. There was grind, but it was not excessive. Apart from mutagen samples, that is. Those got pushed outside normal game play with removing prime parts from Derelict drop tables.

Now I can't say that.

And after the last event I can't even say: ''Well, you can get everything but Hema researched in reasonable time. You don't exactly need a clan.''

Because now you do. Devs clearly set up goals in assumption that there are no solo ghost clans. And the event showed, that DE won't budge on that ''get an active and full clan'' stance. With how little clans that scored in top 10% got to ''victory tier'', that gave the event weapon in exactly the same state as other event weapons were given.

And all the Hema defenders reiterate that point ad nauseam. ''Down size, join an active clan, buy with plat''

Exactly the things that were selling points before. The option to play solo (punished severely with relic system, research costs and the direction events seem to take). The option to get stuff without paying money. The option to play as you like with people you choose (again, relic system, from ''-Let's do a couple of t3c. - I don't have keys. - I have, let's go.'' to ''-Let's open some relics! - I don't have any Axi left and no time to excavate, sorry'').

And now we get more and more nerfs that are hitting the other major selling point of the game. You could feel powerful. You started with nothing, and in doing missions you became more and more powerful. Until nothing could stop you on normal star chart, and you started to stay in the void for the next C rotation because you could and because there was a thrill of losing rewards from all the rotations you already finished.

There is still a Lex Prime. But in the video you posted there was a talk about prospect of nerfing even that.

[Ditto132]

41 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Not clans. Players.

Before Hema I could honestly say that it's possible for a new player to get every item but vaulted primes and event items without spending money or joining any groups.

I said clans because players who doesn't have a clan or joined a fully researched clan wouldn't really notice the issue.

And with new contents that are acquired from clan, being a player without a clan just doesn't really make sense or beneficial.
Without clan, you lose so much.

• Dragon keys that previously doesn't require clan
• Nezha previously acquired from Sortie
• Rewards from clan events
• Weapons/frames, some that can't be purchased with plat
• Future clan related contents such as "Kingpin"

52 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

The option to play as you like with people you choose (again, relic system, from ''-Let's do a couple of t3c. - I don't have keys. - I have, let's go.'' to ''-Let's open some relics! - I don't have any Axi left and no time to excavate, sorry'').

I find the new fissure make it troublesome to open some relics.
I can only open the relics that matches the Era that I wanted to open, and also the mission type that I wanted to play, and during the time I was logged in.

57 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

And now we get more and more nerfs that are hitting the other major selling point of the game. You could feel powerful. You started with nothing, and in doing missions you became more and more powerful. Until nothing could stop you on normal star chart, and you started to stay in the void for the next C rotation because you could and because there was a thrill of losing rewards from all the rotations you already finished.

I personally feel this was because the sense of progression was sort of broken.

• Mods that are given out for free or sold to newcomers
• Veterans hand-holding newcomers
• The lower levels of the starchart
• The removal of the need of playing higher level endless missions
• The removal of the need to improve your skill since you don't have to play higher level
• The game trying to cater to all types of players, the masses

Personally, I prefer the old void system.
I could play a few missions to stock up some void keys during the weekdays at night.
Then I could schedule a long session to use the keys(especially survival) to try to get as much as possible out of them.
The risks and rewards of the void survival was exciting for me. It was rewarding to try to get as much as possible out of a key. It was risky to get nothing when you failed, blaming myself for being too greed. But you know, it is challenging. I considered it "end-game" content and reasons to forma and make our weapons/frames stronger.

But with fissure, there is no point in doing so, and also no point in having the so-called "OP" weapons/frames/setup. Just find a fissure mission to open your relic as fast as possible.
The endless fissure mission bonuses are not good incentives, especially for veterans who are the ones aiming to play longer in endless missions and challenging themselves.
Those mini boosters are ridiculous for veterans, and meaningless when you are aiming to go as long as possible that you are most likely bringing your best maxed gears.

With the new fissure missions, getting ducats is not really possible for me by playing normally.
I ended up spending more time trying to get relics than using the relics... and the ducat value changes due to relics being vaulted and new relics introduced.
I am currently "surviving" on my reserve of relics and prime items from the old void system, some relic packs from Syndicates, and are insufficient.
I skipped Aklex Prime and a few Baro visit.

Now that you mention these, I feel that it is becoming more of a Pay-to-Play and require even more time to play than previously was.

Like in the video, I am worry about the prospect of the game...

[Gamma745]

12 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Exactly the things that were selling points before. The option to play solo (punished severely with relic system, research costs and the direction events seem to take).

Just nitpicking, but I don't think the relic system punished solo play that severely. People can still play solo like they always do. I agree that it takes more keys(relics) to do so, but playing solo hasn't changed that much beyond that. In fact, players who find it a hassle to get into pre-made groups can just jump in provided they have the necessary relic.

Research cost, Hema is the only outlier at the moment (okay, people can argue about the Knux) and I sure hope it stays that way. Ferrox and Tenora didn't seem to follow the pattern, so here's to hoping it stays that way.

I got nothing to say about the event though. Victory tier was just crazy. but at least Participation Tier was reduced significantly.

 

But let's not get off topic here. I thought we're talking about Hema.

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

I agree that it takes more keys(relics) to do so, but playing solo hasn't changed that much beyond that.

Are you sure that spending only about 4 times more time relic farming than getting prime parts is not a big change? Are you sure that removing the option to not farm keys at all, and join someone else who did the farming is not a big change? The fact that with relics you are losing on chances for better loot if you are not in a full team?

How about relics dropping with lower than 100% drop chance in every mission? While keys were 100% drop from appropriate rotation?

You say it's off topic, but it's really related, IMO.

It's part of the course of ''solo players must suffer''.

And the defenders of both say exactly the same things ''just get a group''.

Defenders of relic system point out that in a squad of people bringing the same relic refined to radiant there is an unprecedented in the old void 34% chance to get a rare item.

Completely disregarding all the time you need to spend on getting the relic of a specific type, then getting enough traces to make it radiant, then find a group that has done the same, and is ready to open their relic at the same time you are...

While defenders of Hema point out that you need to ''only'' contribute 500 mutagen samples. All you need is a full and fully active clan. And they seem to think that's the only way clans should be.

Completely disregarding that it's still 10 times more than everything else in Bio Lab combined for a ghost clan if you were to have a full and fully active clan to share the grind...

In both cases people who defend those things do the same thing. They chose to point to an optimal situation being not that bad... completely ignoring that situation is rarely optimal. In the case of clans it's never optimal. Never.

And the same ''get boosters/buy with plat'' is thrown around a lot.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Flirk2

[Ditto132]

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Are you sure that spending only about 4 times more time relic farming than getting prime parts is not a big change? Are you sure that removing the option to not farm keys at all, and join someone else who did the farming is not a big change? The fact that with relics you are losing on chances for better loot if you are not in a full team?

I totally forgot about the keysharing and that you only need 1 key for the whole squad, and still get the reward even if you don't have the key.
Now I remember that I got quite a lot of helps from kind players in getting some primes where I would said something like "LF T3E", or request for invite when people goes "Having T3E" or "Having T3E keyshare" in recruit chat.
During weekend or free time, I would invite my friends to join me in void survival using the key that I had.
Now, it is less likely since you need to use your relic to get the reward. Even if you don't mind using relic, you still need to have even some crap relics to get the reward.
And sometime I declined invite to join my friends going into fissure missions, and said something like "I don't have any spare relics" or "I don't have enough traces for rad".

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Defenders of relic system point out that in a squad of people bringing the same relic refined to radiant there is an unprecedented in the old void 34% chance to get a rare item.

I find that the new void, require more time and investment to get rare item.
You need to farm for the relevant relic first, then farm for void traces to make it radiant, then play the fissure mission to get a chance at the reward.

Initially, the new void acceptable, it is much easier to get the prime part due to the option to radiant. Forgetting the portion that I didn't farm for the relics due to the conversion of keys to relics.
With the depleting relics from void keys and the vaulting and newly released relics, it is obviously harder to get the relics that you required to get the prime part that you wanted.
It might be easier when more new relics are being released at a later time. Since when new primes are released, each prime parts can only be obtain from one particular relic.

Quote

Banshee Prime Blueprint: Neo T1 Uncommon
Banshee Prime Neuroptics Blueprint: Meso S4 Common
Banshee Prime Chassis Blueprint: Neo B1 Rare
Banshee Prime Systems Blueprint: Axi B1 Rare

Helios Prime Blueprint: Lith N2 Uncommon
Helios Prime Cerebrum: Axi H1 Rare
Helios Prime Carapace: Neo N5 Common
Helios Prime Systems: Lith V3 Uncommon

Euphona Prime Blueprint: Axi B1 Common
Euphona Prime Barrel: Meso N3 Uncommon
Euphona Prime Receiver: Axi E2 Rare

 

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

While defenders of Hema point out that you need to ''only'' contribute 500 mutagen samples. All you need is a full and fully active clan. And they seem to think that's the only way clans should be.

I remember saying something like "Balance and resource cost shouldn't be based on the optimal scenarios, but the normal cases".

Quote

Because I doubt any normal players could get that much and having fun.
I just feel sad that those people that posted things like "see, I am able to do it, so why can't you?" :(
It is like saying "See, I am able to become a millionaire, so why can't you?"
or something related to Warframe
"See, I am able to survive 6hours of survival mission, so why can't you?"
Well... because that is not normal play, it require certain frames/weapons/team setups...

And so is asking for a full active clan participation to farm for a rare resource, found only in Eris(less chance) and Derelict(need keys), using a particular setup (Nekros) and recommending using both boosters (drop chance and amount) in order to start researching for Hema.

It is just unreasonable... especially for a person who spend more time on Warframe than Work/Family...

 

If we were to do balance and set values based on optimal scenarios, it would be ridiculous.
Things such as:

• Players claiming certain weapons being OP due to equipping specify Riven mod, certain frames being OP due to Primed mods.
• This weapon is OP and murdered everything because the squad got 3-4 Corrosive Projections.
• The Pacifism Defect event is easy, you just need 2 Trinity and 2 Vaubans.
• Hema cost is ok, you just need Nekros, Hydroid, Speed Nova, and boosters.

3 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

In both cases people who defend those things do the same thing. They chose to point to an optimal situation being not that bad... completely ignoring that situation is rarely optimal. In the case of clans it's never optimal. Never.

Exactly. Since when everything goes so smoothly and optimally, especially with so many players having RNG problems.

[Gamma745]

10 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Are you sure that spending only about 4 times more time relic farming than getting prime parts is not a big change? Are you sure that removing the option to not farm keys at all, and join someone else who did the farming is not a big change? The fact that with relics you are losing on chances for better loot if you are not in a full team?

Takes more times farming Relic: Um, I guess I'll just take your word on that, since I'm mostly a casual player so I didn't feel the pain. In fact, just by playing normally, I'm having an excess of Relics that I feel the need to drain them before it clutter up my inventory. Then again, the only prime I actively farmed since SotR is Helios Prime and Euphona Prime, so maybe that's the biggest factor. I agree that it takes more time to farm the newly released Prime, since you need to farm the new relic first then try to get the parts.

Joining someone else is still considered team play. You still look for groups and organizing. I thought we're talking about solo play there.

Loosing on better loot if you are not in a full team: Again, I thought we're talking about solo play. When you're playing alone, you're using your own stash. At least, for non-endless, how is that any different? Okay, endless mission does require far more relics, won't argue with that. But at least you will get a few relics back from the mission reward. It's not a 1:1 ratio, I have to admit that. And the fact that you probably don't get the relic you want, I guess it's also a problem

 

11 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

How about relics dropping with lower than 100% drop chance in every mission? While keys were 100% drop from appropriate rotation?

Okay, for this one I want to get some hard data, since the Wiki says that both relics and keys dropped alongside some random mods such as Vital Sense and Ammo Mutation. Or are you saying that the keys were dropping more frequently in rotation B and C compared to Relics?

 

11 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Defenders of relic system point out that in a squad of people bringing the same relic refined to radiant there is an unprecedented in the old void 34% chance to get a rare item.

Completely disregarding all the time you need to spend on getting the relic of a specific type, then getting enough traces to make it radiant, then find a group that has done the same, and is ready to open their relic at the same time you are...

Can't argue with the needing more effort and time. The fact that traces system only balances out the chance of getting the part is just lackluster in my opinion. When I see the difference with each refinement, all I can think is "that's what you mean by reducing grind, DE?". But I can suggest a small advice: use the time you farm ducat fodder to farm traces as well. This way ducat fodder farming also gives (arguable) progress towards future farming. Where as before, the time you farm for ducats didn't give any contribution towards new relic farming, especially when the new prime haven't been released yet.

Before you bash me on this, I will admit that this advice is of little help when you're doing an extensive farming, when you want to farm a lot of parts. I already said I agree that this system does take more time and effort.

 

IMO, the selling point of the relic System is removing leechers into the equation. I remembered players complained when doing a keyshare and the last player bailed out without using his/her key. It maybe a small minority, but leechers are never welcomed

Also, showing the pool reward directly. When you get into a fissure mission, you know exactly what you want to take and what (5 stuff) you're expecting to get. My small problem with the old void is that I keep on having to go back to the wiki to know which mission drop the part I want. My PC can't handle opening both Warframe and Chrome at the same time, so having the option to see reward table in-game is a nice addition. Okay, you can argue that DE can always put a Codex entry for Void rewards, so this is not much of argument.

But my biggest support for the relic system is this: Mission Variant. Where in the old void, if you want a specific part, you have to go on a specific mission on a specific rotation. I remembered back when I farm Volt Prime part (the System and Chassis), I have to endure rotation C on Survival. Personally, Survival and Defense is the biggest sleep-inducer, so I kinda avoid playing it if I just want to goof. With the relic system, I can just choose which mission type I want to go. Granted, the desired mission type may not appear when you want it, but at least it's not locked to one mission type for it's entire existence.

 

8 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

I totally forgot about the keysharing and that you only need 1 key for the whole squad, and still get the reward even if you don't have the key.
Now I remember that I got quite a lot of helps from kind players in getting some primes where I would said something like "LF T3E", or request for invite when people goes "Having T3E" or "Having T3E keyshare" in recruit chat.
During weekend or free time, I would invite my friends to join me in void survival using the key that I had.
Now, it is less likely since you need to use your relic to get the reward. Even if you don't mind using relic, you still need to have even some crap relics to get the reward.
And sometime I declined invite to join my friends going into fissure missions, and said something like "I don't have any spare relics" or "I don't have enough traces for rad".

I agree on that. When the relic system removed leechers, they also removed the ability for people to carry their friends.

[Gamma745]

Now, how about we go back to giving constructive feedback? I got a small idea that maybe could satisfy both sides:

 

Reduce the Hema research cost. Make it even with other research so that solo clan can afford it with reasonable time.

 

But for those who want to go the extra mile, give the clan an option to "upgrade" their research. For an extra cost, maybe like the current Hema cost (You know, counted with full clan and optimal condition), the clan can make the lab give fully crafted weapon with a catalyst installed, instead of just a blueprint. Those who wanted to just get the weapon are not locked out, but those who put some (okay, a lot of) effort are rewarded with something extra for their trouble. I'm kinda against it giving a slot as well though, since that is easily exploitable.

 

I'm going to give an unpopular opinion here, but I think the latest event is how clan participation is should be, at least post-reduced participation tier. It's the basic principle I heard from a game developer: Reward those who put the effort, not punish the casual players. I mean, after some time, can you tell the difference between the rewarded fully-built Ignis Wraith and the ones crafted from a blueprint?

 

There are still a lot of details that are needed for this idea, but I want to hear the opinion of this basic outline.

[Justice_Ember]

On 7/4/2017 at 3:45 PM, Flirk2 said:

As it is, you need to spend quite a bit of time if you were to fund the research even without the Hema.

''Right away'' that you are talking about is in the 2 - 3 months of playing almost exclusively towards research. Forma gear? Forget it. Every room in the dojo needs a forma.

Build stuff just to get MR points? Not for a solo ghost clan. MR 12 is what you are aiming for. Everything else resource wise will go for building dojo and research.

If you have not tried it yourself, you can't exactly feel the grind.

Now consider 10x increase. 2-3 months of ''right away'' x10 means 2-3 years of ''not right away''. How many people do you know that are up to such a commitment?

If you would just read the thread, you would see what ''working together" looked like. People get invited into a clan, contributing, then thrown out, for example.

And those who did work together? I don't remember any one person that said: ''Thank DE for the opportunity to run Derelicts for hours! We missed it badly''.

The closest thing I saw is ''At least it gives us something to do'' And that, IMO, is not a reaction a game developer should seek.

How nice of you to call everything I posted ''invented statistic and bs economics''. Do you have actual counter arguments to the points I made? No? Then kindly find some.

FYI.

http://steamspy.com/app/230410

Playtime total: 68:31 (average) 04:31 (median)

How about that for ''invented statistics''...

I won't even start with your ''bs economics'' statement. Too angry at the moment.

So a Ghost clan getting everything from scratch in about 3 months is not right away? and times 10 with the same amount of people? why? 
As for what working together looks like you are right, there was a problem there, that's not exactly the cost tho, is it?

Woah, hard hitting numbers from an official source, oh wait, right, sorry your angriness, you were right all along.

[Liminal]

2 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

I'm going to give an unpopular opinion here, but I think the latest event is how clan participation is should be, at least post-reduced participation tier. It's the basic principle I heard from a game developer: Reward those who put the effort, not punish the casual players. I mean, after some time, can you tell the difference between the rewarded fully-built Ignis Wraith and the ones crafted from a blueprint?

I agree except for one thing: only the top 10% got a research that gives out clan affinity.

[Gamma745]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

I agree except for one thing: only the top 10% got a research that gives out clan affinity.

Good point. Almost forgot about that. I don't know what DE planned for those clan.

[Ditto132]

3 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Reduce the Hema research cost. Make it even with other research so that solo clan can afford it with reasonable time.

I said it before: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/779000-octavias-anthem-hotfix-2004/?page=6#comment-8537764

Quote

At least reduce it down to reasonable value similar to the Javlok and Ferrox, to make it consistent with the increase in research cost. It been quite some time now.

 

3 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

But for those who want to go the extra mile, give the clan an option to "upgrade" their research. For an extra cost, maybe like the current Hema cost (You know, counted with full clan and optimal condition), the clan can make the lab give fully crafted weapon with a catalyst installed, instead of just a blueprint. Those who wanted to just get the weapon are not locked out, but those who put some (okay, a lot of) effort are rewarded with something extra for their trouble. I'm kinda against it giving a slot as well though, since that is easily exploitable.

This idea is feasible, since it is similar to The Pacifism Defect event.
 

3 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

I'm going to give an unpopular opinion here, but I think the latest event is how clan participation is should be, at least post-reduced participation tier. It's the basic principle I heard from a game developer: Reward those who put the effort, not punish the casual players. I mean, after some time, can you tell the difference between the rewarded fully-built Ignis Wraith and the ones crafted from a blueprint?

I said it before:

On 07/02/2017 at 0:03 PM, Ditto132 said:

The current way of trying to encourage group/clan team-play and effort is just not effective.
Kicking members and buying/selling membership just shows that players are exploiting and bypassing the so-called "stretch goal" instead of doing it as intended.
The situation becomes "it's every man for himself"

Personally, how I believe that clan goal should be implemented is the goal should be reasonably challenging and doable for solo clan, balanced and normal/default difficulty for partial clan and trivial for full clan participation.

This would encourage team-play just like Sortie does to some extend. Sortie is not really meant for solo play, but it is still doable, while it encourages players to try and play in full squad (even in public) as it would be trivial due to team synergy. Even Sortie doesn't need full meta squad and efficient to be able to complete it.

Another example to encourage team-play is Spy mission. It is to solo Spy mission in ~7 mins for 3 vaults from my experiences.
But it would encourage team-play with more players as each player could each take a vault, making it trivial. It indirectly reward team-play.

Can you imagine if the Sortie is being balanced around the idea that full meta squad with near perfect efficient and synergy to be able to pull off, with no room for mistakes?
That is currently how the Hema research cost is being balanced with. Full clan participation doesn't even have much benefits.

It does NOT encourage full clan participation, but it is punishing clans without full clan participation.

[Gamma745]

1 minute ago, Ditto132 said:

I said it before

Glad we're on the same page now. Should I post my idea to the clan thread? or have someone else do it before me?

[Ditto132]

20 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Glad we're on the same page now. Should I post my idea to the clan thread? or have someone else do it before me?

You decide. Your idea.
Not sure if you saw these and other clan related posts, see if it helps, add/link them if you want.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/744013-hema-final-word-no-mutagen-drop-or-cost-change/?page=88#comment-8494684

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/744013-hema-final-word-no-mutagen-drop-or-cost-change/?page=90#comment-8521286