I'm Really Disappointed in the Decision to Keep Mandatory Mods

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, ashrah said:

u cant make drastic changes just like that......game would lost to many ppl... they are invaste lot time and cash in it...game hold  good wepons... ppl have fun...

The "Drastic change" would not only be well documented and given to players to read over through the dev workshops to where they would have ample time to prepare for the majority of the changes, but it is also something that a massive number of the players have been asking for specifically.

And if people invested cash into their mods to such a way that a change like this (designed to improve the game) makes them leave, maybe they invested their cash poorly and should have just stuck with investing time. Its not like they wouldn't be compensated with an equal payment back if mods are removed from the game.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Have you ever played tabletop games? Anything from Dungeons and Dragons to Warhammer or Warhammer 40k

These are games with random systems, and a playerbase that is absolutely deadset on making their builds as non-random as possible. The sense of progression for these players is the feeling that they have managed to make a build that's effective and reliable in an inherent random system

That's the point, or one of the points, in making a random system

That said, your argument doesn't just vanish, because Warframe does it wrong. In a good tabletop game, the more you focus on making your aspects non-random, the more you give up to do so.. It's specialization. Meanwhile in Warframe, there are two god-tier stats: raw damage, and crit chance. Whereas in DnD you're absolutely screwed if you load up for raw damage without any non-combat skills, or in 40k you're screwed if you load up for pure melee focus without any ranged cover fire, in WF you can load up with any Frost and focus everything, literally EVERYTHING on damage/crit for your primary and be perfectly effective

Yes. And it's a garbage system for a video game to emulate.

This is a visual medium. If I am dealing Fire damage, I should be able to SEE and HEAR that fact. Not just see a few numbers moved around in the inventory screen.

Over reliance on pen and paper mechanics such as levels, health bars and player death have drug video games down and held them back long enough. Let's not defend this any longer.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Yes. And it's a garbage system for a video game to emulate.

This is a visual medium. If I am dealing Fire damage, I should be able to SEE and HEAR that fact. Not just see a few numbers moved around in the inventory screen.

Over reliance on pen and paper mechanics such as levels, health bars and player death have drug video games down and held them back long enough. Let's not defend this any longer.

I really cant understand how you thought they were saying fire damage would not make fire effects, or somehow tied that into saying that the game shouldn't be held back by levels, health bars, and player death... Those three things weren't even remotely in the discussion.

This isn't monster hunter where a health bar wouldn't fit. I don't want to have to look carefully to notice the normal patterns of my enemy have changed to indicate that they are injured or close to death, not in a game where we have as many enemies to face as we do here. And I do in fact like knowing how close to death I am without having to look for blood spatter falling out of my body or a limp to indicate that I am hurt. Pretty sure if player death didn't hold a game back by punishing the player for failure that the game would be a worthless bargain-bin title since death had no disadvantages. Challenge is what people play games for to overcome.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Phatose said:

You said that right here:

 

That's at best reinstating mandatory mods - except it's mandatory based on the weapon, not globally, which I don't count as a whole lot of improvement.  Or it's never actually not a trade off, and is customization but not progression.

And why does progression have to be attached to mods? That doesn't make sense.

You can have level progression and gear progression without overriding customization. You just need effectively balanced base stats for weapons, and stat increases as you gain levels.

[DiabolusUrsus]

49 minutes ago, Phatose said:

Are you looking at what's being suggested?  Because that is exactly the scenario being suggested.

Every mod has a plus and a minus - therefore, on any given weapon, mods will be effectively required due to the lack of the minus being relevant.  We've seen this happen inwarframe already - old Heavy Caliber on recoil less weapons.  Fleeting expertise on any frame where duration wasn't used.

Make things plus/minus and all you accomplish is making mandatory mods mandatory on specific weapons or frames instead of globally which do not notice the minus.

 

They handled Heavy Caliber incredibly poorly.

Weapons without recoil don't mean that you can't have recoil as an effective drawback. The mod just needs to add recoil to those weapons.

Abilities without duration can be made affected by duration a la duration and efficiency.

Yes, there's a problem if drawbacks aren't universally effective, but there's nothing mandating that the drawbacks are implemented in exactly the same way across the board.

[BlackCoMerc]

10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

I really cant understand how you thought they were saying fire damage would not make fire effects, or somehow tied that into saying that the game shouldn't be held back by levels, health bars, and player death... Those three things weren't even remotely in the discussion.

This isn't monster hunter where a health bar wouldn't fit. I don't want to have to look carefully to notice the normal patterns of my enemy have changed to indicate that they are injured or close to death, not in a game where we have as many enemies to face as we do here. And I do in fact like knowing how close to death I am without having to look for blood spatter falling out of my body or a limp to indicate that I am hurt. Pretty sure if player death didn't hold a game back by punishing the player for failure that the game would be a worthless bargain-bin title since death had no disadvantages. Challenge is what people play games for to overcome.

dont disagree completely.

On the other hand... Elemental weapons should look, feel and play differently from one another. Differences should be visible and audible.

As for Death...That hasn't been a real punishment in games besides Dark Souls for years now. In narrative based games, it ruins pacing and delivery. In Warframe type games, it just means moments when a person isn't having fun.

Not saying Challenge doesnt matter. We need more of it. But we need it to come in ways that suit this game, not that are copy pasted from elsewhere again.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

dont disagree completely.

On the other hand... Elemental weapons should look, feel and play differently from one another. Differences should be visible and audible.

As for Death...That hasn't been a real punishment in games besides Dark Souls for years now. In narrative based games, it ruins pacing and delivery. In Warframe type games, it just means moments when a person isn't having fun.

Not saying Challenge doesnt matter. We need more of it. But we need it to come in ways that suit this game, not that are copy pasted from elsewhere again.

The main reason why Death isn't as severe a punishment in this game is because you can revive, which honestly without assistance of another player is a challenge for players unprepared to not use up. But players being able to die is a fundamental requirement in this game, unavoidable. There aren't too many ways to redesign that wheel.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

dont disagree completely.

On the other hand... Elemental weapons should look, feel and play differently from one another. Differences should be visible and audible.

As for Death...That hasn't been a real punishment in games besides Dark Souls for years now. In narrative based games, it ruins pacing and delivery. In Warframe type games, it just means moments when a person isn't having fun.

Not saying Challenge doesnt matter. We need more of it. But we need it to come in ways that suit this game, not that are copy pasted from elsewhere again.

Essentially this.

"Removing mandatory mods" is not about making it so that the "best" mods don't exist. There will always be the mathematical "best." It's about shrinking the gap between "best" and "next best" so that it's small enough to be relatively inconsequential. It's about making it so that the difference between equipping Serration and not equipping Serration isn't quite so much like night and day. It's about giving players more wiggle room with their builds.

When it comes to elements, flavor benefits like fire being effective against Infested should only be taken so far. Why should I care about taking Magnetic/Toxin against Corpus when it plays exactly the same as taking Rad/Viral or Corrosive against Grineer?

I would love to see fire more focused on the damage over time, electricity allowing you to damage groups, ice allowing you to slow, and poison allowing you to weaken enemy attack rates (don't need DOT overlap) instead of "This color element affords X% more damage against Y enemies."

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I would love to see fire more focused on the damage over time, electricity allowing you to damage groups, ice allowing you to slow, and poison allowing you to weaken enemy attack rates (don't need DOT overlap) instead of "This color element affords X% more damage against Y enemies."

Fire is a DOT already. Electricity is a stun since it makes logical sense, making it attack groups would probably make it unbalanced unless it was lower damage and doesn't really follow how electricity works without specific conditions. Ice already slows. Poison taking Ice's effect (slowed enemies attack slower) or Puncture's (lower enemy damage output) doesn't make sense.

[BlackCoMerc]

10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The main reason why Death isn't as severe a punishment in this game is because you can revive, which honestly without assistance of another player is a challenge for players unprepared to not use up. But players being able to die is a fundamental requirement in this game, unavoidable. There aren't too many ways to redesign that wheel.

That is true for this game. I will grant that. Not in all games, but here, yeah, death or getting downed is needed.

Other parts of the P&P System need to go though. Like random chance for crits.

[DiabolusUrsus]

 

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Fire is a DOT already. Electricity is a stun since it makes logical sense, making it attack groups would probably make it unbalanced unless it was lower damage and doesn't really follow how electricity works without specific conditions. Ice already slows. Poison taking Ice's effect (slowed enemies attack slower) or Puncture's (lower enemy damage output) doesn't make sense.

Fire has a DOT, but the DOT is a secondary benefit not the primary focus. The primary focus of fire is simply more damage with arbitrary modifiers.

Electricity chaining between enemies doesn't preclude the inclusion of a periodic stun.

Again, Ice has a slow but the slow is secondary.

Poison causing gradual paralysis resulting in lowered attacking ability makes plenty of sense. That's its most common implementation in the natural world.

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

That is true for this game. I will grant that. Not in all games, but here, yeah, death or getting downed is needed.

Other parts of the P&P System need to go though. Like random chance for crits.

We do actually have location based damage multipliers, people just don't take the time to notice them much. The head is the most well known one, but a lot of others exist that reduce damage dealt to the target since you are hitting a more protected area.

However I really cant see any way possible to do crits at all unless you are suggesting these location-based weakpoints be the only place one can crit and that they are guaranteed. Guaranteed IMO is... problematic. It would REQUIRE crit damage multipliers to be axed heavily.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

We do actually have location based damage multipliers, people just don't take the time to notice them much. The head is the most well known one, but a lot of others exist that reduce damage dealt to the target since you are hitting a more protected area.

However I really cant see any way possible to do crits at all unless you are suggesting these location-based weakpoints be the only place one can crit and that they are guaranteed. Guaranteed IMO is... problematic. It would REQUIRE crit damage multipliers to be axed heavily.

In order to implement the suggested system, we need better hitboxes. Or at least crosshairs that are properly aligned and don't require you to aim above the head to hit the head when the weapon doesn't have projectile drop.

We already have guaranteed crits with massive multipliers, and even have chance for double-crits... so I don't think axing crit multipliers would be that unreasonable. At least if it required players to be able to aim at weak-points there would be some justification for crit damage outscaling normal damage so severely. Currently it's just an arbitrary "this weapon scales great!" "This weapon scales poorly." That arbitration doesn't even do us the justice of making sense in the context of gear progression (expensive high-tier weapons are not always crit weapons).

[NeithanDiniem]

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

Fire has a DOT, but the DOT is a secondary benefit not the primary focus. The primary focus of fire is simply more damage with arbitrary modifiers.

Electricity chaining between enemies doesn't preclude the inclusion of a periodic stun.

Again, Ice has a slow but the slow is secondary.

Poison causing gradual paralysis resulting in lowered attacking ability makes plenty of sense. That's its most common implementation in the natural world.

The primary focus of all 11 different elements is the damage they deal because they deal more damage against different targets because said targets have armor and weaknesses against specific types of damage.

Fire has its DOT as well as a panic effect to CC the enemy while they suffer damage. Hardly arbitrary if applicable in a larger area.

Electricity doesn't chain at all unless very specific grounding conditions exist. Otherwise electricity only chains if individuals are in very close proximity and are forming a chain to the grounding point. That is probably why they made it a stun instead.

There is no other way to make the slow become the primary without removing the damage entirely or making it slow for a full minute. That would not be a fix at all what so ever.

It doesn't make any sense if we already have elements doing the exact same thing. And poisons that cause paralysis are neurotoxins and are not the most common form of poison. Most poisons that affect creatures actually cause sickness, organ shutdown, or tissue damage, hence damage applying over a time being the most apt equivalent effect.

Edited January 7, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[ashrah]

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The "Drastic change" would not only be well documented and given to players to read over through the dev workshops to where they would have ample time to prepare for the majority of the changes, but it is also something that a massive number of the players have been asking for specifically.

And if people invested cash into their mods to such a way that a change like this (designed to improve the game) makes them leave, maybe they invested their cash poorly and should have just stuck with investing time. Its not like they wouldn't be compensated with an equal payment back if mods are removed from the game.

DE is  made good decision... i have almost 4700h in warframe... and for 100% i would leave game same day if mods get removed...

[DiabolusUrsus]

30 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The primary focus of all 11 different elements is the damage they deal because they deal more damage against different targets because said targets have armor and weaknesses against specific types of damage.

Electricity doesn't chain at all unless very specific grounding conditions exist. Otherwise electricity only chains if individuals are in very close proximity and are forming a chain to the grounding point. That is probably why they made it a stun instead.

There is no other way to make the slow become the primary without removing the damage entirely or making it slow for a full minute. That would not be a fix at all what so ever.

It doesn't make any sense if we already have elements doing the exact same thing. And poisons that cause paralysis are neurotoxins and are not the most common form of poison. Most poisons that affect creatures actually cause sickness, organ shutdown, or tissue damage, hence damage applying over a time being the most apt equivalent effect.

1. And those differences are freakin' uninteresting because there's very little visual indication of the elements, and there's no actual gameplay difference between them. It does the same crap except it kills some things faster and some things slower. I would much rather have elements that are potentially effective against most enemies depending on how they are used, not "this is effective no matter what and this is never effective no matter what." Especially when fighting the Grineer and Corpus basically feels the exact same.

2. This is a game, not a simulator. By that logic, Volt's shock has no reason to chain. I'm going off of what is entertaining, not realistic. Also, keep the stun. Just make the chaining happen on every hit and the stun happen periodically.

3. Make it slow on every hit and stack it up to freezing the enemy solid, which makes them more vulnerable to Impact damage. Also, prevent the slow from slowing attack speed.

4. The bonus damage outside of procs/effects should most definitely be removed from elements. There's no reason why making your bullets catch fire needs to provide you with 200 bonus damage in addition to the ability to set enemies on fire.

5. My point is that we should try to avoid effect overlap. We've got a DOT in the form of fire already, so re-write the lore into poison being a neurotoxin. Or make it stack up slowly into massive burst damage (lethal dose). Make it do something, I don't care, but we don't need another DOT. Also I was looking at it from the perspective of poison as venom, not "poisonous substances." So my apologies for being unclear on that point.

Edited January 7, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 minutes ago, ashrah said:

DE is  made good decision... i have almost 4700h in warframe... and for 100% i would leave game same day if mods get removed...

As with every time someone throws out this threat, you're being melodramatic.

Nobody says that mods have to be deleted. I'm suggesting that they remove the mandatory nature of some mods. Serration can still exist. It just shouldn't provide 150% extra damage effectively for free. There's nothing compelling about slotting Serration on every compatible weapon I have without thinking twice about it.

Let me put it this way:

Why do you use serration? Because you need that damage to be effective.

Does that mean serration is a good mod? No. It means that every weapon in the game's base damage at level 30 is too low by about 150%.

Let's say serration is removed, and built straight into the weapons. Obviously, DE being DE your credits and Endo that went into maxing serration are refunded. Have you lost anything? NO. You have gained an extra slot to use on whatever you want, and you can spend those credits and endo on other things.

Let's say serration is not removed, and instead changed to have a more reasonable effect so that it's useful if you want the damage but not so useful that you wouldn't consider using something else. That would still require increasing the base damage of all weapons because they would be too weak otherwise. So have you lost anything? NO. You will have gained more freedom of choice.

How can you defend perpetuating a false choice, outside of "I won't be able to make as much plat off of Serration?"

Edited January 7, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus
Clarity.

[Tanner_Lindberg]

honestly the amount of enemy warframe and just general nerfs and changes would drive so many people away i think they realized this :'/ lets just hope they do something good with it 

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Yes. And it's a garbage system for a video game to emulate.

This is a visual medium. If I am dealing Fire damage, I should be able to SEE and HEAR that fact. Not just see a few numbers moved around in the inventory screen.

Over reliance on pen and paper mechanics such as levels, health bars and player death have drug video games down and held them back long enough. Let's not defend this any longer.

I wasn't trying to imply "emulate", more "look at this for some cues on how to improve"

[NeithanDiniem]

42 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. And those differences are freakin' uninteresting because there's very little visual indication of the elements, and there's no actual gameplay difference between them. It does the same crap except it kills some things faster and some things slower. I would much rather have elements that are potentially effective against most enemies depending on how they are used, not "this is effective no matter what and this is never effective no matter what." Especially when fighting the Grineer and Corpus basically feels the exact same.

2. This is a game, not a simulator. By that logic, Volt's shock has no reason to change. I'm going off of what is entertaining, not realistic. Also, keep the stun. Just make the chaining happen on every hit and the stun happen periodically.

3. Make it slow on every hit and stack it up to freezing the enemy solid, which makes them more vulnerable to Impact damage. Also, prevent the slow from slowing attack speed.

4. The bonus damage outside of procs/effects should most definitely be removed from elements. There's no reason why making your bullets catch fire needs to provide you with 200 bonus damage in addition to the ability to set enemies on fire.

5. My point is that we should try to avoid effect overlap. We've got a DOT in the form of fire already, so re-write the lore into poison being a neurotoxin. Or make it stack up slowly into massive burst damage (lethal dose). Make it do something, I don't care, but we don't need another DOT. Also I was looking at it from the perspective of poison as venom, not "poisonous substances." So my apologies for being unclear on that point.

Potentially effective? Name one element that doesn't have a potential effect against an enemy that actually is visible or noticeable in the enemy's resulting actions or effects upon them. Slash is a health DOT, impact is a stagger, puncture is a damage output reduction, heat is a DOT+panic, cold is an overall slow, toxin is a health DOT, electric is a stun + close proximity chain, blast is a knockdown, corrosive is a permanent armor reduction, gas is a toxin AoE, Magnetic is a temporary shields reduction, radiation is a confusion, and viral is a health reduction. The only major overlaps are toxin/gas (both apply toxin), impact/blast/electric (open target for finishers), and slash/heat/toxin (DOTs). All your fixes so far either make different overlaps anyways or do the exact thing you say you are arguing against; add damage.

Volt is a Warframe that is using void technology to generate and release electricity to a targeted point. I'm fairly certain if he can create a forced channel for the electricity to follow to he can make it go to multiple targets over longer distances. He creates the situation to make it arch. Guns that have the ability to arch over large distances between targets are unique in their ability to do so. Yes they don't make sense and it bugs the hell out of me, but making EVERY gun do that would be even worse and completely invalidates their unique aspect.

Why prevent the slow from slowing attack speed if it is slowing movement speed to the point of making the target be encapsulated in solid ice? Are their fingers going to be immune? Are they going to swing their melee weapons with the same speed as if they weren't almost frozen solid? You are making zero sense at all.

You understand that the original plan for elemental mods' changes was to make them CONVERT existing damage that is on the weapon to that elemental damage instead of ADD damage, right?

Then stop making effects OVERLAP but keep it within logical sense. Your suggestions so far have no logic behind them and are just being suggested because you feel they would be interesting. They also lack any foresight as for what effect they would have on the game. Lethal dose of damage? Congratulations, you just made poison be the go-to element because you gave it added damage. Focus on separating toxin and gas instead.

 

I'm not against DE going in to the elements and sprucing them up. Your suggestions would not be a fix however.

Edited January 7, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I wasn't trying to imply "emulate", more "look at this for some cues on how to improve"

How to improve:

Stop relying on random mechanics used to emulate action combat when action combat is already a thing. There's no good reason for crits and procs to be random instead of controlled. Sure, give enemies resistances. Sure, make procs periodic. But not random.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

How to improve:

Stop relying on random mechanics used to emulate action combat when action combat is already a thing. There's no good reason for crits and procs to be random instead of controlled. Sure, give enemies resistances. Sure, make procs periodic. But not random.

Periodic = on timer or random. On timer = guaranteed, makes no sense. Random = what we already have.

Edited January 7, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

How to improve:

Stop relying on random mechanics used to emulate action combat when action combat is already a thing. There's no good reason for crits and procs to be random instead of controlled. Sure, give enemies resistances. Sure, make procs periodic. But not random.

Hmm...

You know, Killing Floor 2 had this discussion last year. Certain weapons had stagger and knockdown and stun procs, and the fanbase HATED it. It was retooled into a "proc threshold" system. Whereas before a weapon might stagger a zombie roughly 20% of the time, it was changed to a system where roughly four consecutive shots had a guaranteed stagger proc

Think that might work for Warframe?

[Xekrin]

I have two main problems with them deciding not to remove 'mandatory' mods.  

First, they promised (or hinted at, whatever) that weapons would 'grow' with ranks, without mods.  I was looking forward to that.  Just as warframe abilities increase with rank, so should weapons, regardless of the mods installed.

Second, 90% of weapons require at least 3 Madurai (v polarity) slots.  That in itself just feels very unbalanced to me, it hurts the customization of builds (in my opinion) when I know I'm going to need at least 3 V polarities right off the bat for any weapon (excluding melee, due mainly to stance mods).  This is especially true for secondary weapons.

I want more variety in polarity selection at least, I don't care how it happens.

---

What I do want to see come out of "Damage 3.0" is smoother transitions for modding.  Right now we have 3 weapons that feel severely gimped due to mod limitations.  Those are Dark Split sword, Stradavar, and Zarr.

Why?  Because those 3 weapons are effectively two weapons in one, yet we cannot mod them as such.  Zarr is a shotgun but we cannot use shotgun mods on it for its shotgun mode.  Split sword is a dual blade with one stance and a heavy weapon with another, yet we are forced to choose beforehand, with no way to switch in the mission.

Stradavar is a sniper'ish weapon that doubles as a rapid fire gun.  Can we mod for both?  Not really, its one or the other where the secondary choice will be a bit less effective at its role due to how we have to mod it.  Not to mention we cannot use sniper specific mods.

We have unique weapons that are rendered generic due to mod restrictions.

---

Physical damage mods is another sore spot with me.  They are far inferior to elemental mods, in resistances on enemies AND damage % increases.

Status effect mods and status in general needs an overhaul too.  So tired of being forced to equip another element just to increase status chance because the pure status chance mods are absolutely worthless.

---

 These are just a few of the things I want to see changed in the future.

[DiabolusUrsus]

25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Potentially effective? Name one element that doesn't have a potential effect against an enemy that actually is visible or noticeable in the enemy's resulting actions or effects upon them. Slash is a health DOT, impact is a stagger, puncture is a damage output reduction, heat is a DOT+panic, cold is an overall slow, toxin is a health DOT, electric is a stun + close proximity chain, blast is a knockdown, corrosive is a permanent armor reduction, gas is a toxin AoE, Magnetic is a temporary shields reduction, radiation is a confusion, and viral is a health reduction. The only major overlaps are toxin/gas (both apply toxin), impact/blast/electric (open target for finishers), and slash/heat/toxin (DOTs). All your fixes so far either make different overlaps anyways or do the exact thing you say you are arguing against; add damage.

Magnetic: + damage against shields. - damage against alloy armor. Why? Because. I'm saying the emphasis should be taken off of the damage and put on the effects. As in, if I shoot someone with a fire bullet they should catch fire, not maybe catch fire.

My suggestions provide less overlap, instead of slash, DOT. Fire, DOT. Poison, DOT. Gas, DOT. The overlaps are also intended to have purpose. Slash DOT is for preventing/slowing regeneration. Fire DOT is for working in some soft CC. Some overlap is okay; you want people to have options after all, but the overlap shouldn't be indistinguishable outside of "this is good for Infested. This is good for Corpus."

25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Volt is a Warframe that is using void technology to generate and release electricity to a targeted point. I'm fairly certain if he can create a forced channel for the electricity to follow to he can make it go to multiple targets over longer distances. He creates the situation to make it arch. Guns that have the ability to arch over large distances between targets are unique in their ability to do so. Yes they don't make sense and it bugs the hell out of me, but making EVERY gun do that would be even worse and completely invalidates their unique aspect.

You're cherry-picking your suspension of disbelief. Following your logic, Warframe's electric augments are sufficiently advanced to cause arcing. Tadah. Arcing from electric mods also doesn't have to overshadow say, Amprex. Electricity also doesn't have to arc. I'm not dead set on one specific auxiliary effect for any element; it's just an example.

25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Why prevent the slow from slowing attack speed if it is slowing movement speed to the point of making the target be encapsulated in solid ice? Are their fingers going to be immune? Are they going to swing their melee weapons with the same speed as if they weren't almost frozen solid? You are making zero sense at all.

Because encapsulation takes longer, and the slow is still useful in the meantime. Sure, make the slow affect melee, but don't make it affect how fast a gun shoots when the trigger is pulled. This would make it a consideration next to fire for Infested. I'm not making sense to you because I'm speaking in broad terms of examples, and you're taking my examples as comprehensively defined systemic mechanics. Do I have every detail spelled out? No. But the problems you're raising aren't somehow unsolvable, and you're missing the overall point I'm trying to make.

25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You understand that the original plan for elemental mods' changes was to make them CONVERT existing damage that is on the weapon to that elemental damage instead of ADD damage, right?

Yet that's not what actually got implemented, so...

25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Then stop making effects OVERLAP but keep it within logical sense. Your suggestions so far have no logic behind them and are just being suggested because you feel they would be interesting. They also lack any foresight as for what effect they would have on the game. Lethal dose of damage? Congratulations, you just made poison be the go-to element because you gave it added damage. Focus on separating toxin and gas instead.

I'm not against DE going in to the elements and sprucing them up. Your suggestions would not be a fix however.

As in a "simulation of a lethal dose," not "instant kill." Just burst damage. This would be balanced out by taking longer to reach that threshold than say, fire.

The only thing I'm asking for is for elements to have differentiated utility instead of an emphasis on massive amounts of bonus damage (e.g., physical damage is more viable on its own)... and while some flavor bonuses against factions (e.g. fire vs infested) are acceptable, the elements shouldn't be so extensively divided between factions.

PS:

Periodic: adjective- occurring at intervals.

In other words, decisively not random, but also not guaranteed on every hit.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus