First Kuva Siphon mission

[FierceRadiance]

Rant commences.

TL;DR Kuva missions look like Warframe, but once we get to the Siphon portion of the mission, the fun drains away almost instantly, because everything about our Warframe, and all of our previous WF experience, immediately becomes null and void.

Tried my first Kuva harvest tonight, and left with a very negative first impression. Exterminate mission, I'm an L21, they're decent-level enemies, but how hard can this be? Yup, not wicked hard. Over a hundred dead, four or five more to go....and at last we get to the real point of the mission: the Siphon.

Suddenly the room is full of 'regular' high-level enemies who respawn as fast as I can kill them-and I can kill them pretty fast. The mission type instantly becomes just a ruse. Then there's those big balloon-guys that can't be damaged by any weapon I own. Let me say that again: Enemies that can't be damaged, unless I use my Special Little Snowflake Boi. But it's a confined space, and every time I pop him out, one swing of the balloon-guys and I'm back to my Warframe, typically in no more than a second or two. So I'm not playing Warframe any more. I'm playing some new game, which uses WF art assets, but virtually nothing else that makes Warframe fun to play--no guns, no powers, no parkour, no blades. This is extremely frustrating, and is absolutely not fun. I have to try to use tactics from Final Fantasy whichever half a decade ago and stun the balloon-boys for a few seconds using an entirely different kind of attack (one I have no experience with, and don't need anywhere else in the game). Meanwhile, the undamaged Kuva Siphon is merrily doing it's thing, and the clock is ticking.  And the balloon-boys are no more than dizzy, and that only for a few seconds, because they are unkillable by every method I've been using for years playing the game. I'm no longer an L21 with hundreds of weapons to choose from--I'm a Level One, with one gun. Because reasons.

The mission requires an entirely new (for WF) gameplay mechanic, and I found it hard. Not challenging, not engaging, just hard. What's the lore behind the balloon-boys? Put another way, if these guys exist, WHY AREN'T THE TENNO ALL DEAD as a result?? Tenno cannot kill them, and we can't even seriously damage them. These guys are Superman gone too fat to fly, and are invulnerable to Warframes. I can't stress that strongly enough, and to me at least, it's maddening. Lore-wise, the Tenno should be mangled baggies.

I think if you play Warframe to prove something, to yourself or others, or to measure yourself against "hard", then this gameplay may appeal to you. I play for fun, I don't have anything to prove, and there's no fun fighting enemies who have been specifically designed to make all my experience and weapons useless. I'm reduced to the skill-set of a three-week-old kitten. Everything I've spent dozens-hundreds-thousands of hours practicing and getting better at....wasted here.

This is a rant. But I think the concerns expressed are valid (of course), because we're being forced away from everything we know and like, and told that's a good thing, for no reason other than DE's ongoing desire to force us away from what works. I respectfully disagree with this premise. Steve, Sheldon, Rebecca, try to imagine if one day, your supervisor came in and told you that all your game design experience, gaming creativity, programming, and customer relations skills -everything that makes you the valuable employee that you are- would now have to be devoted to assembling coffee-makers, with one hand tied behind your back, bent over, and one eye closed. I'm guessing you would find that frustrating, to have all the expertise and experience you've amassed, which you've worked hard for and accumulated over the years....rendered useless. Welcome to Kuva Siphon missions.

I can't imagine that DE would roll these missions back into something more Warframe-like, not with the amount of time and effort expended on creating them. So there's really nothing for me to do in response except choose not to play these missions--and I don't like that. I don't want to do that. I farmed all of Nidus' parts, and I'd like to own him (/her/it), explore it, level it, become familiar with it....which this mission type will then completely spit on. I'm pretty good at playing Warframe, but I'm useless at EmoBoiFrame, and there's no real incentive to get better at it. DE's history being what it is, the next single-use-resource+weapon combination will probably ignore Kuva.

Please consider abandoning this approach ("This time, let's make'em fight standing on their head!!") going forward.

Rant concludes.

[Pizzarugi]

I think DE mentioned some time ago that they had planned on merging the Focus system into the new Operator, hopefully to make them more useful as a result. I hope that's true, because there's currently no real reason to ever use the Operator except for this minigame.

When I completed TWW, I was kinda stoked. During that mission, you took control over a golden maw and that lead me to believe I've unlocked the power to hijack enemies after I disable them. That would've been awesome, too bad it was all a ruse.

[Syln]

The only issue i have with kuva siphon/flood mission is when the kuva spawn right on the siphon apart from that i completly disagree with you here :/

[Unholyrequiem]

Kuva missions are easily the worst mission design by DE thus far. It's obnoxious, it's intruding, it's out of place,tedious,  frustrating and there is nothing fun about it. The only good thing I can say is that you get something nice from it. 

[Tyrian3k]

I can't say I like the kuva missions all that much. I could be wrong, but from what you say, you make it sound like you were trying to kill the fatsos with you operator. Once they are disarmed, which you do have to do with the operator of course,  you can switch back to your warframe and kill them with your guns.

The logic behind the immunity is completely arbitrary. "I hold stick, I iz invulnerable!" is not all that great of a design.

[CommanderSwift]

Playing Kuva Siphons solo can be very hard, I agree. In a group though, it's way easier. Just wait until the Guardians are distracted by another tenno, and stun them and knock their weapons out. After that, they're just big moving bullet targets. And the Jesters are nothing more than annoyance.

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

I can see where you're coming from. Part of the problem is what you've already mentioned. The other part of the problem is who you're in a squad with. Almost everyone wants to be the one to "run the ball" so you have no one on defense to make sure your Operator doesn't get trampled while taking on Guardians and the Kuva cloud. I learned right away that you need at least one CC frame on duty while at least one or two Operators stun Guardians and go on Kuva Watch.

It's not as hard as some make it out to be if you can go into Siphon missions with a team who are willing to communicate. The main problem here is almost everyone trying to do the same role without any support. *No one's making sure the crowds aren't hitting or - even worse - not even trying to take out Guardians!* PUGs aren't gonna work like that but that's a risk you run. Best you can do is ask for someone to run defense or try to defend them yourself. With a good setup or just having a good defender, you'll have a much better experience with Kuva Siphon missions.

The Guardians (I call 'em "Big Berthas") are immune to almost everything you throw at em but they can be controlled to a degree. Bastille can't hold them but they can be slowed down by Night Equinox for example. The CC isn't just for the Berthas but for the mobs with high slash procs and AoEs. With those guys under control, your squad mates have time to attack the Big Berthas with their Operators. Once that's done, the CC members can pick them off and the Operators can go after the clouds.

[FierceRadiance]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions. Maybe this isn't a dead-end for me after all. My clanmates are pretty down on WF right now, and only one other one is playing ATM. Problem is A) I agree with them, although I do continue to drop in and play a mission or two a day, and B) We are either rarely on together lately, or when we are, they're playing some other game they like more than they do WF right now.

But if a couple of us get on WF together, I'll try some of these approaches.

[(XBOX)ChewyAM]

@FierceRadience and DE:

I have to agree with your original post – here’s my experience, FWIW and IMHO…but first, some background and a warning, this is long but I felt all this really needed to be stated to complete the picture of my utter frustration and disappointment…It’s also a bit of a rant, but with a purpose, so please indulge me, readers and DE alike.

As an xbox SOLO ONLY user, I loved warframe…then multiple things started being introduced that KILL MY FUN.  The new star chart system came and suddenly, a game that had a UI that was applicable to PC and console alike, fast and smooth, now is CLEARLY made for a PC keyboard and mouse and NOT for a console controller.  The reticle is STILL slow and sluggish; using the dpad is no where nearly as smooth as the old ring design, stopping on each planet and within each planet’s sections with pausing to show a new popup picture.  Clunky, unintuitive and sloppy for console users – I suspect that PC gamers reveled in the new design and clearly little to no thought given to what it means to control the star chart with a console controller.  I put up with this because, I loved the game.

With the new star chart system came the introduction of the dreaded “Network Not Responding” issue ON ALL RELAYS (not during gameplay) and failing to enter RANK UP.  I’ve tried everything from research and port experimentation, posting on forums, opening a ticket (only to be told thank you, we’re aware of the issue and a fix is coming) and then almost immediately closed WITHOUT a resolution.  So now, I still can not RANK UP MY WARFRAME PAST MR 15 to this day!  Ok then, so be it, DE must be really working on this, since it’s taking SOOO long..  I put up with this because, I loved the game.

Then came the Teshin backstory and Conclave.  I was really jazzed about playing the conclave, with new gameplay, content and mods.  To my dismay, my first try was my LAST try, since there is NO WAY TO PLAY SOLO.  So, now we have a whole new section that as a SOLO USER, I can not use!  As a SOLO ONLY console user, I find myself COMPLETELY SHUT OUT and I’m pissed off.  For crying out loud, even the holiday snowball event was a SHUT OUT to SOLO users.  I put up with this because, I loved the game.

Now TWW finally hits console and I loved the story!  I was looking forward to using the operator in a mission, instead of just utilizing him as just a glorified power-up.  I played my first “kuva” non-fortress mission and WOW…what an EXTREMELY FRUSTRATINGLY B-A-D EXPERIENCE. 

I went in with Frost at 1250 shields and 750 health – thinking to myself, this might be OK to get through.   I get to the siphon and suddenly find my warframe down with a hit from a Kuva guardian (IMHO a giant red and black Goomba with arms) and my shields are GONE.  I also find myself SLOW to stand (I don’t know why).  Ok, so I go “operator” and boom, my controls don’t really work right.  I tried the move to stun; left analog stick forward while simultaneously holding LB and tapping RB – and didn’t work.  I kept getting hit and going back to my warframe and BOOM, I'm dead (thank DE for the new 4 lives re-spawn).  I tried many times in the same way and achieved a 50/50 success rate getting stun to work.  When I finally lined up a guardian, didn’t get hit with enemy fire (guardian or other enemy), didn't die and achieved my stun move, I found trying to execute the dash maneuver EQUALLY DIFFICULT to successfully execute (another 50/50 chance).   

Ok, so after repeating this and failing to survive or failing the kuva part of the mission, on MANY missions, I was able to finally do this part with a very MINOR amount of success.  So now I can finally try to get some kuva!  Then it hits me; what a really ANNOYING sound this thing makes!  But Wait…TWW bought some REALLY REALLY COOL directional sound, with proportional and proximal distancing. RIGHT???…now I have this really loud and overpowering screech, not only overpowering to the senses, it is NOT directional and basically mutes everything else.  All the sound rework was gone. Ok, fine, so let’s try and find the “kuva clouds”…and boom, the kuva queen tells me she got some!  I have no idea how it got by me, but hey, I must be tired or something so I hear the screech again and basically hover and hop around the siphon and again, I missed it.  Well, for the next 10 mission retries or so, with little success in stunning the guardians and when I get them vulnerable to kill them off, I almost NEVER see the clouds…even when all stars align and was able to get all of these things to go my way,  boom, my operator can’t pull of the dash move.  Now I think I understand WHY…when I go operator mode, I read on a reddit thread that there was an OPERATOR ENERGY LIMIT!!! WHERE IS THE ENERGY BAR FOR THIS ENERGY?  I believe a lot of the issues in control revolve around the fact that my operator doesn’t have enough energy to DO the move, but where is the meter?  How long between different moves does it take before another execution?  How can you tell?  Are we supposed to guess?  Is it me or am I really that blind that I don’t see it (totally possible)? 

Ok, so now I have to balance the controller issues, do 2 different and staggered controller executions to kill the guardians or be killed, while keeping my operator and warframe alive, turn the brightness and contrast on my TV up to see the kuva clouds (watching the noodley appendage on the siphon DOES NOT HELP, IMO), execute another dash and pray it will execute either because of cumbersome and staggered controller sequence or the invisible gauge of operator energy, all while avoiding being killed by any amount of level generated enemies…After many, many missions all I was able to collect was 116 kuva – THAT’S IT!?!!? 

All this was bad enough, but now, FINALLY we get Nidus and I thought I was going to be able to get this warframe, after seeing it on youtube in action and totally loving it, and BOOM…I need KUVA to get this thing built and it’s 2000 kuva to boot!  I am ONCE AGAIN now effectively cut off from ever getting Nidus; without platinum.  That’s just not right.

All of this is far TOO frustrating to even attempt anymore.  There are simply no words to describe my level of loathing of this new gameplay.  Ridiculously weak operator endurance, misplaced and unneeded difficultly, arduous and tedious controls and last but not least, a new gaming mechanism that INVALIDATES the warframe for most of the new gameplay – the supposed strongest weaponized and ancient warrior suits in the universe.  I'm all for more difficulty / better rewards, but this; REALLY? WTF?!?!? 

I now find myself NOT loving the game as I used too.  In fact, I find myself greatly disappointed and feeling like DE has been penalizing me for my gaming platform of choice and gaming style (PC first in UI design, PC first in updates and whole swaths of gameplay ineligible to the solo user – a very unequal experience).  Now, with this crazy difficult kuva mechanism, I am beside myself.  I didn't even get into the decision of tying Riven mods to sorties that (at least for me) are nearly impossible to complete solo!  (again, perhaps it's my skill level - maybe I'm just that inept, so be it - I can do without riven mods - then again, yet another unnecessary game design decision that is completely myopic to SOLO only players, barring them from yet again, another piece of warframe).

I have played warframe for 2,002+ hours and counting. I have seen most Dev Streams, Prime Times and Mondays with DE_Megan.  I absolutely love the lore that TWW brought to the game, but with all these experiences, I will simply NOT be playing warframe for kuva, Nidus or anything related to kuva unless there are OTHER WAYS TO GET KUVA and major changes made to the current operator/kuva missions to PLAY IN A FUN WAY and be achievable (not necessarily easy, but NOT ridiculously difficult) . 

I still put up with all of this because, I still love the game but if this trend continues, I fear I will not love this game anymore and just stop playing.

Once again, sorry for the length of this post, but I hope this has a positive effect for change.

[Snib]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ChewyAM said:

As an xbox SOLO ONLY user,

If you have Limbo or any invis frame you can trivialize siphons/floods because you can just ignore the kuva guards. Exterminates might be challenging depending on your gear level but everything else is usually easily done solo.

[(XBOX)ChewyAM]

Thank you for the suggestion, Snib!  I generally agree that solo is usually easily done, it's just lately (as I tried to indicate above) solo and console seems to be more of an afterthought by DE than an equal consideration..

I have Ivara (which I love for Spy type missions; too squishy for much else), but my thinking was a tank build, not sneaky...I'll definitely try your suggestion!  Thanks again!  

[Madotsuki]

The funny thing is, this can all be fixed just by removing the fatties' arbitrary invuln. I can use my Emo Within to stun them for an easier kill, but I don't HAVE to. But obviously DE won't do that considering their track record.