Ash Revisit: Part Deux

[Nazrethim]

I find mildly annoying that most feedback is directed towards Blade Storm (which at best could use a reduction in cost of about 5, so each mark costs 10 and 5 while invisible) while gleefully ignoring the other parts that REALLY need to be revisited, so I bring you:

-Rising Storm: 3s Combo counter isn't worth the slot really, there are 3 simple options to pick from:

 A)make it affect Drifting Contact and Body Count (DC awarding 20s and BC 24s respectively when RS is equipped),

 B)make it award a flat 12s counter (for a total of 32s combo counter if both DC & BC are equipped) or

 C)rework it into something else (for example making every attack by Ash award 5-10 hits to the combo counter)

-Teleport: the "teleport to object" is buggy annoying scrappy mechanic that wasn't asked for. Instead add a 'hold ability' function to allow Ash to teleport to the aimed location and a buff to Teleport's default range, also making the execution automatic by default (which help bypass buggy enemies that flat out ignore the stagger and aren't opened) and leave Fatal Teleport with bonus Finisher damage and 50% refund on kill (which are impressive and useful by themselves)

-Shuriken: 2 options.

A) make it's damage scale off the combo counter and/or

B) make casting Shuriken while Blade Storm marking mode is active throw a shuriken to each marked target at 10 cost each (base before effi modifiers)

C) Make Shuriken scale off Secondary mods

-Passive: 20% damage and 50% duration for bleeds sounds great on paper but frankly is lame too simplistic and it's impact in the game isn't really noticeable. I would like another, more on the flavor side, effect to it:

-All Claw, Nikana, Sword, Dual Sword, Dagger and Dual Daggers get new special Finisher animations (similar to what we see on the trailer)

-Enemies killed by Finishers dissolve, leaving no corpse.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[lukinu_u]

31 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Dat photoshop.

[Jackviator]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

 

I find mildly annoying that most feedback is directed towards Blade Storm (which at best could use a reduction in cost of about 5, so each mark costs 10 and 5 while invisible

 

I'd also add that they should remove the motion-sickness inducing animations and just have Ash send his clones out so we don't have to get stuck in animations.

Other than that little addition, I like the rest of the ideas, especially the Teleport idea. That could make for some interesting stealth play, and if it works similarly to how it worked in Dishonored, I think I'd enjoy the ability a lot more.  

[Nazrethim]

34 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I'd also add that they should remove the motion-sickness inducing animations and just have Ash send his clones out so we don't have to get stuck in animations.

Other than that little addition, I like the rest of the ideas, especially the Teleport idea. That could make for some interesting stealth play, and if it works similarly to how it worked in Dishonored, I think I'd enjoy the ability a lot more.  

I like Blade Storm animations because it allows screencaps like this:

Spoiler

A good solution that favors both sides would be adding a toggle option. Option A) regular blade storm camera. Option B) zoomed out camera, you essentially see the crowd of enemies from afar and Ash teleporting between them. This would keep the animations and ability the same and somewhat aleviate the camera angles for those that don't like them or can't stand them.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Nazrethim

[GTX49]

Shurikens should scale with the secondary mods

[Nazrethim]

9 minutes ago, GTX49 said:

Shurikens should scale with the secondary mods

That could work too, seeing as the shuriken weapons are secondaries.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

On 1/14/2017 at 9:50 AM, Nazrethim said:

I find mildly annoying that most feedback is directed towards Blade Storm (which at best could use a reduction in cost of about 5, so each mark costs 10 and 5 while invisible) while gleefully ignoring the other parts that REALLY need to be revisited, so I bring you:

-Rising Storm: 3s Combo counter isn't worth the slot really, there are 3 simple options to pick from:

 A)make it affect Drifting Contact and Body Count (DC awarding 20s and BC 24s respectively when RS is equipped),

 B)make it award a flat 12s counter (for a total of 32s combo counter if both DC & BC are equipped) or

 C)rework it into something else (for example making every attack by Ash award 5-10 hits to the combo counter)

-Teleport: the "teleport to object" is buggy annoying scrappy mechanic that wasn't asked for. Instead add a 'hold ability' function to allow Ash to teleport to the aimed location and a buff to Teleport's default range, also making the execution automatic by default (which help bypass buggy enemies that flat out ignore the stagger and aren't opened) and leave Fatal Teleport with bonus Finisher damage and 50% refund on kill (which are impressive and useful by themselves)

-Shuriken: two options.

A) make it's damage scale off the combo counter and/or

B) make casting Shuriken while Blade Storm marking mode is active throw a shuriken to each marked target at 10 cost each (base before effi modifiers)

-Passive: 20% damage and 50% duration for bleeds sounds great on paper but frankly is lame too simplistic and it's impact in the game isn't really noticeable. I would like another, more on the flavor side, effect to it:

-All Claw, Nikana, Sword, Dual Sword, Dagger and Dual Daggers get new special Finisher animations (similar to what we see on the trailer)

-Enemies killed by Finishers dissolve, leaving no corpse.

I understand what you mean by all the attention to his 4th, but in truth, that was the one that was hurt the most.

Rising Storm: Have no thoughts on, so I'll go with your's... they seems legit anyway ;P

Teleport (watch the whole video): I disagree with your hold function for teleport. It should just be a single move that enables a short to moderate-ranged, instant movement. Any hold functionality will slow down gameplay speed and though he deals a ton of damage, he is too weak to stop for long. If you want to give it a secondary feature, I would go with the mechanic from Shinobi on PS2. In this game, when teleport is used, it is more of a half-dash/half-teleport. It also has a feature where when used on an object, it brings Shinobi directly to it (in front) but when used on an enemy, it always brings Shinobi to the back of the target (and if the target is difficult, you could use it multiple times to strike/move and avoid attacks while always being optimally placed with at least enough time for one hit before the enemy turns around to face you). The video link below may show this (depends on the person playing. There is a guys who is nasty with it, but it's not the one in this video) but what it definitely shows is how fluid Ash's combat into movement should be and vice versa, along with how wall running/latching should be done.

 

Shuriken: Both of your options sound good. I like the idea of the second one even though it further cements the new "rework" as being good, though it's not, it just gives more use to the new functionality of the "targeting system." And, in that respect, the new targeting system should be fused into all his abilities allowing Ash to throw out smoke bombs like a boss, too.

To tell the truth though, I think Shuriken is the move in Ash's kit that warrants a quiver-style setup. 3 variations w/ new animations for speed:

- Throwing Star (Slash) - Slot A - Bleed Proc

- Throwing Knife (Puncture) - Slot B - Puncture Proc

- Throwing Dart (impact) - Slot C - Impact Proc

- Shurikens have innate stagger.

- New Animation (0:20): Not really new, just ported over from the regular thrown weapons. Using the same throwing style as the Hikou Prime (which is the Haymaker, two-handed style, like throwing a baseball with each hand, instead of the singular frisbee hold/throw). And if you hold down the button, Ash will consecutively (and without delay) start hurling blades with greater speed. At top speed, casting cost will be reduced to 1 power per blade. Just have to say, obviously, it won't be the exact same speed as the Hikou Prime, that would just be ridiculous. There would be a short wind up where the speed would gradually increase (and with each increase in speed, there is a decrease in casting cost until max speed is reached where the cost will be only 1 energy per blade) until reaching the cap.

 

Passive: While, I too, was kind of disappointed by Ash's passive, it does make sense for his damage type/style. I have always seen Ash as the other side of the Excalibro Coin (the other sword master) and felt like he should have something for that, too.

- Ash has increased crit chance with Nikana/Claw Weapons (wrist blades).

- Ash has increase fire rate with Bows/Thrown.

 

I've gone over all of this before, check it out:

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Nazrethim]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Teleport (watch the whole video): I disagree with your hold function for teleport. It should just be a single move that enables a short to moderate-ranged, instant movement. Any hold functionality will slow down gameplay speed and though he deals a ton of damage, he is too weak to stop for long.

Actually the functionality would be 'Tap' for regular teleport and 'hold' (similar to melee combo holds, which is a brief split second hold) to teleport to a location. The idea was a Teleport you could pull off in a convenient way to avoid detection or maneuver trough the battlefield.

57 minutes ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

 

Shuriken: Both of your options sound good. I like the idea of the second one even though it further cements the new "rework" as being good, though it's not, it just gives more use to the new functionality of the "targeting system." And, in that respect, the new targeting system should be fused into all his abilities allowing Ash to throw out smoke bombs like a boss, too.

To tell the truth though, I think Shuriken is the move in Ash's kit that warrants a quiver-style setup. 3 variations w/ new animations for speed:

- Throwing Star (Slash) - Slot A - Bleed Proc

- Throwing Knife (Puncture) - Slot B - Puncture Proc

- Throwing Dart (impact) - Slot C - Impact Proc

- Shurikens have innate stagger.

 

I like the Quiver idea. Though it could also be more drastic in changes.

A) Throwing Star: Slash, Bleed proc, tracking.

B) Throwing Knife: Puncture, no tracking, straight line, 3.5 Punch Trough.

C) Caltdrop cluster: Impact damage, creates a 2m radius AoE field of caltdrops on impact. No tracking. Unalerted enemies walking on caltdrops are stunned and open for finishers briefly. Alerted enemies get a little slash proc and have their movement speed crippled drastically.

1 hour ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

- Ash has increase fire rate with Bows/Thrown.

Also: Missed arrows/Knives lure enemies in a small radius instead of alerting them.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

On 1/15/2017 at 2:09 PM, Nazrethim said:

Actually the functionality would be 'Tap' for regular teleport and 'hold' (similar to melee combo holds, which is a brief split second hold) to teleport to a location. The idea was a Teleport you could pull off in a convenient way to avoid detection or maneuver trough the battlefield.

You should actually read my Conglomerated Post, I have a split teleport move in there that is reminiscent of your idea but each version has its own specific uses.

TLDR: renamed Teleoprt to Smoke Dash and Smoke Strike (yes, the names aren't great, I know)...

Smoke Dash: Free to aim. Short to moderate range. drops enemy targeting on cast. Ash is able to Quick Melee Attack, and shoot guns (whatever) as normal.

Smoke Strike: The same as Smoke Dash except Ash can only utilize this move while he has Melee equipped. Which means you can do channeling teleport attack moves.

Basically, Smoke Dash enables you to go around enemies, Smoke Strike lets you go through them. The combinations of attacks are varied and many.

- There is (or maybe now, was) a feature to Exclibro's Slash Dash that enabled you to equip his melee weapon by pressing E in the middle of the slide attack so that the ability's strike would be enhanced by the full power of the weapon at the point of impact. If this mechanic is imported into Ash's skill set, this would make for how Ash could teleport around and utilize the full ranged of his kit, all the while being extremely fast and agile.

In text terms, it would be like this:

Ash shoots Badguy A. Ash teleports away from A to right behind Badguy B for finisher. Ash then teleports back to an area near Badguy A and shoots him dead. Ash then teleports to Badguy C (who just entered the room) and while teleporting, equips melee and takes him out with a few choice power attacks. Essentially, my version would allow the player to exactly control Ash and perform combination moves as seen in the Trailer/Cinematic.

In this version of my rework. Ash's BS would just be a stance (or whatever you prefer to call it) that just enhances all of Ash's other abilities to be either stronger, faster or stronger and faster... kinda like a mario super star without the invulnerability.

Edited January 17, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Nazrethim]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

You should actually read my Conglomerated Post, I have a split teleport move in there that is reminiscent of your idea but each version has its own specific uses.

TLDR: renamed Teleoprt to Smoke Dash and Smoke Strike (yes, the names aren't great, I know)...

Smoke Dash: Free to aim. Short to moderate range. drops enemy targeting on cast. Ash is able to Quick Melee Attack, and shoot guns (whatever) as normal.

Smoke Strike: The same as Smoke Dash except Ash can only utilize this move while he has Melee equipped. Which means you can do channeling teleport attack moves.

- There is (or maybe now, was) a feature to Exclibro's Slash Dash that enabled you to equip his melee weapon by pressing E in the middle of the slide attack so that the ability's strike would be enhanced by the full power of the weapon at the point of impact. If this mechanic is imported into Ash's skill set, this would make for how, Ash could teleport around and utilize the full ranged of his kit, all the while being extremely fast and agile.

In text terms, it would be like this:

Ash shoots Badguy A. Ash teleports away from A to right behind Badguy B for finisher. Ash then teleports back to an area near Badguy A and shoots him dead. Ash then teleports to Badguy C (who just entered the room) and while teleporting, equips melee and takes him out with a few choice power attacks. Essentially, my version would allow the player to exactly control Ash and perform combination moves as seen in the Trailer/Cinematic.

In this version of my rework. Ash's BS would just be a stance (or whatever you prefer to call it) that just enhances all of Ash's other abilities to be either stronger, faster or stronger and faster... kinda like a mario super star without the invulnerability.

I did read that, amaizing work right there. I like the Smoke Dash/Strike ideas. Really makes for a fast and awesome gameplay.

The BS as a stance ultimate without raw blunt force (like exalted blade, hysteria and primal fury) but rather boosting Ash's other capabilities is an idea I agree on

But all those cool rework ideas are "complex" stuff that are unlikely to get added at all.

This thread is more an expansion on DE's Ash Revisit to make it look like a full rework instead of a half finished one.

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

On 1/15/2017 at 3:53 PM, Nazrethim said:

I did read that, amaizing work right there. I like the Smoke Dash/Strike ideas. Really makes for a fast and awesome gameplay.

The BS as a stance ultimate without raw blunt force (like exalted blade, hysteria and primal fury) but rather boosting Ash's other capabilities is an idea I agree on :3

 

Yay! Compromise :D

Now you know why it's "Conglomerated," It's the work of Myself, Dragonblack, Akkilla, LordxKoga, Some of your stuff probably, and a few others. After much debate, the post was what we agreed on and was published. Much effort went into its creation. Thanks for reading it.

Edited January 17, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Bladestorm could use a reduction in damage too. He has no business dealing 2000 finisher, when every frame that cant bypass armor and shields at factory settings deal somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 or less.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Rising storm: Bladestorm, believe it or not, (still) scales off the combo multiplier... 3 seconds isn't that much but it stacks to the basic combo reset, 2? seconds, and can be prolonged by duration

veteran ash's don't need it at all but you having body count doesn't mean everyone has.

A farmable, beginner friendly augument that's stretching combos is pretty darn decent to have in the game.

 

Fatal teleport: Fast, agile, perfect.

Shuriken...it's a first ability >.> it's also quite decent for that...

 

What's left IS Bladestorm rly. I personally like what they made of it but i can not quite agree to them deleting the shadows...it got a build-up...why does it have to be slow to execute as well?...

Edited January 16, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

veteran ash's don't need it at all but you having body count doesn't mean everyone has.

There's Drifting Contact. And Rising Storm still doesn't justify it's slot with 3s combo counter, 6s if you are maxed duration, yes, maxed.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Bladestorm could use a reduction in damage too. He has no business dealing 2000 finisher, when every frame that cant bypass armor and shields at factory settings deal somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 or less.

Considering he attacks targets one by one when, say a Nova can MP the whole planet, and most other mass killin don't actually require aiming or having LoS with targets at all BS dealing 2k Finisher is fine as it is.

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

Yes! A hold to teleport would be awesome. I like the shuriken and passive ideas too.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

On 1/15/2017 at 10:18 PM, Nazrethim said:

Considering he attacks targets one by one when, say a Nova can MP the whole planet, and most other mass killin don't actually require aiming or having LoS with targets at all BS dealing 2k Finisher is fine as it is.

An unlimited number of enemies doesn't matter in this equation? Nova hasn't affected the entire map for a very long time. I know seven people that quit the game when they gave her the wave treatment.

Novas power doesn't cause anybody to bypass armor. Nova doesn't become invincible or invisible. Her ult deals no damage whatsoever on its own. Her power doesn't become more affordable by using another power. 

The bottom line here is the fact that he ignores the greatest form of damage mitigation available in Warframe, and deals anywhere from 300 to 1600 more than any ult that is mitigated, and that isn't even taking into account the fact that  he doesn't have to worry about any penalties from damage 2.0 factors. 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

An unlimited number of enemies doesn't matter in this equation? Nova hasn't affected the entire map for a very long time. I know seven people that quit the game when they gave her the wave treatment.

Novas power doesn't cause anybody to bypass armor. Nova doesn't become invincible or invisible. Her ult deals no damage whatsoever on its own. Her power doesn't become more affordable by using another power. 

The bottom line here is the fact that he ignores the greatest form of damage mitigation available in Warframe, and deals anywhere from 300 to 1600 more than any ult that is mitigated, and that isn't even taking into account the fact that  he doesn't have to worry about any penalties from damage 2.0 factors. 

Only unlimited if you have unlimited energy, which is impossible unless you have an EV trinity at your side (which is due for a nerf since forever but that's another topic). Nova spends 100 energy on MP without effi, has no LoS requirement, and makes every enemy explode with the tiniest damage. BS still costs more energy now even with effi, requires you to actually aim it and doesn't kill everything instantly, but rather one by one, which takes a lot of time if you don't have at least Fury equipped.

Think of it like this: What if Volt, Loki, Ember, Nova, Rhino, Frost, Saryn and all the other AoEs had the mark mode and single target kill Ash has, and also made you invulnerable but unable to continue firing your weapons? Let that image sink in. Blade Storm deals tons of damage because it has other drawbacks.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Only unlimited if you have unlimited energy, which is impossible unless you have an EV trinity at your side (which is due for a nerf since forever but that's another topic). Nova spends 100 energy on MP without effi, has no LoS requirement, and makes every enemy explode with the tiniest damage. BS still costs more energy now even with effi, requires you to actually aim it and doesn't kill everything instantly, but rather one by one, which takes a lot of time if you don't have at least Fury equipped.

Think of it like this: What if Volt, Loki, Ember, Nova, Rhino, Frost, Saryn and all the other AoEs had the mark mode and single target kill Ash has, and also made you invulnerable but unable to continue firing your weapons? Let that image sink in. Blade Storm deals tons of damage because it has other drawbacks.

I guess I'm looking at a different tier enemies. I'm looking at well beyond standard star chart, because star chart is just too easy. 

Considering he is an effective health/rage tank, unlimited energy is easily self sustained, and with the advent of Zenurik, the only frames that really have to worry about energy are toggle frames.

I fail to see any drawbacks. The other frames don't bypass all forms of damage mitigation. Saryn is the closest thing, which only really works on shields, and Hydroid as well, but to a far lesser degree.  

Weapon damage fails to keep up with BS damage, so the fact that they can continue to fire their weapons isn't a benefit. It's chip damage by comparison, and they are entirely vulnerable while dealing it. 

A nerf of 500 would be fair and deserved, and wouldn't be out of balance. Hell, some frames couldn't manage his base damage even maximizing their own, due to scaling armor mitigation, and damage 2.0 vulnerabilities.

When Ash deals 2k, it's 2k, unless buffed. When other frames deal 1100, it winds up being 800, maybe less. Still others deal even less. Depending on how far along a mission is, that is effectively dealing a few hundred thousand damage, with what it would like for a frame or weapon to manage while dealing with mitigation.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

I guess I'm looking at a different tier enemies. I'm looking at well beyond standard star chart, because star chart is just too easy. 

Frames are balanced around Starchart levels, not endurance runs and sorties

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Considering he is an effective health/rage tank, unlimited energy is easily self sustained, and with the advent of Zenurik, the only frames that really have to worry about energy are toggle frames.

And that's the key word, "effective". He's no Nidus or Inaros, he's no more tanky or effective than Excalibur, albeit from different angles.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

I fail to see any drawbacks. The other frames don't bypass all forms of damage mitigation. Saryn is the closest thing, which only really works on shields, and Hydroid as well, but to a far lesser degree.  

Saryn can nuke a big chunk of enemy corps (with a bit of work) and Hydroid is known as Oberon's best friend due to his abilities having no scaling whatsoever, only being summoned from the depths when it's time to pilfer swarm resources.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Weapon damage fails to keep up with BS damage, so the fact that they can continue to fire their weapons isn't a benefit. It's chip damage by comparison, and they are entirely vulnerable while dealing it. 

Gun damage keeps being effective up to lvl 150~ and by that point Blade Storm starts struggling to kill enemies unless you are a melee player with 3x combo counter to boost it. And that's important, Ash is a melee oriented frame, like Excalibur and Valkyr, who can neutralize/finisher kill a whole army if modded for it and being functionally inmortal respectively.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

A nerf of 500 would be fair and deserved, and wouldn't be out of balance. Hell, some frames couldn't manage his base damage even maximizing their own, due to scaling armor mitigation, and damage 2.0 vulnerabilities.

Yes, but unlike other frames, Ash lacks mass CC, he's a killer frame and a damn good one. If, say, you add a mass CC to Ash, then we can talk about nerfing BS damage.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

When Ash deals 2k, it's 2k, unless buffed. When other frames deal 1100, it winds up being 800, maybe less. Still others deal even less. Depending on how far along a mission is, that is effectively dealing a few hundred thousand damage, with what it would like for a frame or weapon to manage while dealing with mitigation.

Well, 2k baseline. It is affected by combo counter, power strenght and Steel Charge aura (like the other melee ultimates).

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Frames are balanced around Starchart levels, not endurance runs and sorties

And that's the key word, "effective". He's no Nidus or Inaros, he's no more tanky or effective than Excalibur, albeit from different angles.

Saryn can nuke a big chunk of enemy corps (with a bit of work) and Hydroid is known as Oberon's best friend due to his abilities having no scaling whatsoever, only being summoned from the depths when it's time to pilfer swarm resources.

Gun damage keeps being effective up to lvl 150~ and by that point Blade Storm starts struggling to kill enemies unless you are a melee player with 3x combo counter to boost it. And that's important, Ash is a melee oriented frame, like Excalibur and Valkyr, who can neutralize/finisher kill a whole army if modded for it and being functionally inmortal respectively.

Yes, but unlike other frames, Ash lacks mass CC, he's a killer frame and a damn good one. If, say, you add a mass CC to Ash, then we can talk about nerfing BS damage.

Well, 2k baseline. It is affected by combo counter, power strenght and Steel Charge aura (like the other melee ultimates).

 If they were balanced around star charts, then some would not scale endlessly.

So he's not as broken as Inaros, and that means he cannot be a rage tank?  I guess rage tanks  never existed before Inaros? NOBODY is as effective of a rage tank as Inaros, because his health is broke as hell.    Even if he had the normal maximum amount of health, he would still be more effective as a rage tank because he doesn't have shields in the way. Just because somebody isn't as effective as a frame with a broken mechanic, doesn't mean they don't excel at it.

Youre both missing and making my point about Saryn and Hydroid. The point I was making was that other frames cannot so easily bypass defenses. Even her Radial nuke isn't capable of bypassing differences.  I was referring to her ability to deal  toxic damage to bypass shields. As for Hydroid,  I find him to be more useful than most people believe he is, but to say that he doesn't scale is only further proving my point that Ash deals a broken amount of damage. Thank you for supporting my point. 

Ash  can have mass crowd control. He doesn't need to stay invisible lake other stealth frames. He can life strike and perpetually sustain his health.  Many people find the stagger of his smokescreen to be more useful than the invisibility, given his survivability.  With negative duration, which only impacts smokescreen, you have the mad bomber build, where you can regularly stagger closer enemies, while simultaneously  Breaking the targeting of more distant enemies.  It's quite effective. 

Yes, baseline. The point was that the amount of damage he deals is the amount of damage he deals,  and it is not mitigated.  If only other frames had the ability to equip an aura that made their ultimate  automatically scale up by an additional 1200 damage, and not to be mitigated at all. 

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

NOBODY is as effective of a rage tank as Inaros

Wukong laughs strongly at this

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Many people find the of his smokescreen to be more useful than the invisibility, given his survivability.  With negative duration, which only impacts smokescreen, you have the mad bomber build, where you can regularly stagger closer enemies, while simultaneously  Breaking the targeting of more distant enemies.  It's quite effective. 

 

Tbh, the stagger on smokescreen isn't as useful as you make it as. It last for a second which is barely makes it a CC and has a small range, in other words it's the worst CC like ability in the game. Also again ash is the assassin of Warframe, if bladestorm did any other type of damage instead of finisher, ash will easily be overshadowed by frames like Mesa, Excalibro, Ember, Sayrn and so on. It's even worse that bladestorm is slower then peacemaker and exalted blade in term of sustain damage. Bladestorm is a weak AOE(you can mark a lot of enemies,but ash attacks them one by one) and even with invisibility synergy you can spend a crap ton of energy just to kill 10+ enemies which can be a pain in the butt to new players who doesn't have corrupted mods/ zenurik focus tree. Even if you have the best build in warframe for ash, You will still have to put ash in a lvl 70+ mission in order for him to be more useful than Mesa,Excalibro,and Ember in terms of killing enemies, but Mesa and Excalibro would still be preferred, since they can reliably CC enemies and help keep the team alive. The only reason I see people wanting bladestorm's damage to be nerfed is "ash does more damage than most Crowd control frames, please nerf him DE". Does ash have one of the strongest abilities in the game in terms of damage? Yes, but ash also has plenty of flaws, which usually leaves him untouched/overlooked.

Edited January 17, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

 The point was that the amount of damage he deals is the amount of damage he deals,  and it is not mitigated.

Oxium Ospreys are resistant to Blade Storm damage, Ancient Healers aura makes enemies more resitant too and absorbs the deadly bleed BS would leave behind (tho the ancient dies of it shortly after), Ancient Disruptor aura makes every enemy resitant to blade storm too. The only faction without any defense whatsoever is Grineer... who are vulnerable to pretty much every other frame in the game, even Oberon, largely known as a jokeframe, can beat Grineer to a pulp (until level scaling kicks in, that is).

 

But enough talk about Blade Storm, that ability is fine. This thread is supposed to be about everything else DE left untouched or touched in the wrong way.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)bigsnake84 said:

Wukong laughs strongly at this

THats fair. I wouldnt really call him a Tank, but I get your point.

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Tbh, the stagger on smokescreen isn't as useful as you make it as. It last for a second which is barely makes it a CC and has a small range, in other words it's the worst CC like ability in the game. Also again ash is the assassin of Warframe, if bladestorm did any other type of damage instead of finisher, ash will easily be overshadowed by frames like Mesa, Excalibro, Ember, Sayrn and so on. It's even worse that bladestorm is slower then peacemaker and exalted blade in term of sustain damage. Bladestorm is a weak AOE(you can mark a lot of enemies,but ash attacks them one by one) and even with invisibility synergy you can spend a crap ton of energy just to kill 10+ enemies which can be a pain in the butt to new players who doesn't have corrupted mods/ zenurik focus tree. Even if you have the best build in warframe for ash, You will still have to put ash in a lvl 70+ mission in order for him to be more useful than Mesa,Excalibro,and Ember in terms of killing enemies, but Mesa and Excalibro would still be preferred, since they can reliably CC enemies and help keep the team alive. The only reason I see people wanting bladestorm's damage to be nerfed is "ash does more damage than most Crowd control frames, please nerf him DE". Does ash have one of the strongest abilities in the game in terms of damage? Yes, but ash also has plenty of flaws, which usually leaves him untouched/overlooked.

I am not saying that he shouldnt deal finisher. Im saying he shouldn't be able to deal more damage that goes unmitigated, when other frames deal less and IS mitigated. Its an unfair combination.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Oxium Ospreys are resistant to Blade Storm damage, Ancient Healers aura makes enemies more resitant too and absorbs the deadly bleed BS would leave behind (tho the ancient dies of it shortly after), Ancient Disruptor aura makes every enemy resitant to blade storm too. The only faction without any defense whatsoever is Grineer... who are vulnerable to pretty much every other frame in the game, even Oberon, largely known as a jokeframe, can beat Grineer to a pulp (until level scaling kicks in, that is).

 

But enough talk about Blade Storm, that ability is fine. This thread is supposed to be about everything else DE left untouched or touched in the wrong way.

Let me clean the coffee I just spit out off of my screen...Without any defense whatsoever? You've got to be kidding me. Grineer have the most powerful defense in the game.

Level 80 is fair, right? Thats only Sortie level 2, right? Thats not TOO far scaled, right?

Armor gives them the greatest effective Health of any faction. I can see why we dont see eye to eye. I'll break it down for you.

A level 80 Corpus Tech has 45,062 Health, and 8,171 Shields, giving them 53,223 EHP.

A level 80 Ancient Healer has 37,846 health, which is also its effective health pool.

A level 80 Heavy Gunner has 23,628 health, with an armor rating of 4949, which mitigates on a scale that provides them with 413,411 EHP.

A level 80 Bombard has 28,384 Health, with an armor rating of 5,733, which mitigates on a scale that provides them with 570,802 EHP.

A single corrosive proc vs a 140 Bombard will effectively deal damage at over a million. With Ashs Shuriken augment, completely stripping a 140 Bombard, you can effectively deal over 4 million in seconds.

Using a level 80 Bombard as an example, lets take Oberon and put him up against this "defenseless" Grineer.

Oberon, with maximized power strength, using reckoning, will normally deal 3737.5, but since Bombards are weak vs Radiation, the damage is amped up to 6540.6 vs Ashs 2000.

But thats where armors mitigation comes in. With Oberon, it took 37 Reckonings, and cost 2405 energy. Ash took 2 castings, costing 15 total energy.

But hey, go ahead and tell me more about how inconsequential his damage is. Scaling hits hard, and it hits early enough that his damage is BS, pun very much intended.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by (PS4)Fenrushak