100% Status Gas Shotgun. How is the DoT Calculated?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I'm a little sick of asking these questions, and I miss testing stuff out myself. Being away from my console for over a month has taken it's toll on my knowedge. I'm basically living off warframe builder to get my warframe "fix". I've been testing out a build that I plan on testing out when I get back online. It's a 100% status gas/electric build. I wanted to know how the DoT and initial damage proc is calculated. Is the DoT calculated by the damage of the pellet that procced it, or the total damage of the weaoon itself?

for example. If I have a weapon that has 10 pellets and 10000 damage on a gas proc. Would the damage be based off of the 10000 damage or the 1000 damage of the pellet that procced it? 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

It is per pellet, same as any other weapon with multishot (innate or modded), but Gas Proc damage is calculated as IPS + Toxin (no other elements) as instant damage, then 50% of the pellet's Toxin damage per tic for 9 tics over 8 seconds, one tic at the beginning and then 1/sec after that. Non-Toxin damage does not affect the DoT. The only difference between Gas and Toxin is that Gas affects all enemies within 6 meters.

Edited January 26, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[(PSN)Crixus044]

7 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

It is per pellet, same as any other weapon with multishot (innate or modded), but Gas Proc damage is calculated as IPS + Toxin (no other elements) as instant damage, then 50% of the pellet's Toxin damage per tic for 9 tics over 8 seconds, one tic at the beginning and then 1/sec after that. Non-Toxin damage does not affect the DoT. The only difference between Gas and Toxin is that Gas affects all enemies within 6 meters.

Thank you. I guess my idea for a gas 100% status kohm is kinda out the window

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

The Kohm is different in how it displays damage, due to its mechanic. It actually displays its damage before spool-up, which means that it is per pellet(unless you add multishot).

The biggest problem with using gas on the Kohm is that it's status chance gets split between all of the pellets. So even if you have 100% status chance, each pellet has ~8.33% status chance at full spool (though some people are debating whether or not this is true, as testing has been inconclusive).

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[(PSN)Crixus044]

13 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The Kohm is different in how it displays damage, due to its mechanic. It actually displays its damage before spool-up, which means that it is per pellet(unless you add multishot).

The biggest problem with using gas on the Kohm is that it's status chance gets split between all of the pellets. So even if you have 100% status chance, each pellet has ~8.33% status chance at full spool (though some people are debating whether or not this is true, as testing has been inconclusive).

 

If I had my console with me right now, I'd grab my kohm, hit the simulacrum and test it out.  The best in my opinion way to test it would be to get a kohm with frigid blast, Toxic barrage, shell shock, nano applicator, and shotgun savvy, tainted shell (not fully ranked), and whatever other two mods you want, cast an ability (I'd go with a small snowglobe for quick protection), spool up the Kohm away from the target, then at full spool, aim at the target and hit him with a single shot. If every pellet procs, then it's confirmed that status does not decrease with pellet count. It's best to use corrosive and cold as both are visual procs with no DoT to get in the way of testing. 

Of course this isn't a good build for usage, but it would work well for testing. AAAAAHHHHH I wish I could get back online 😔 thanks for the notice anyways. That's interesting how the Kohm acts differently.

Edited January 27, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[InsomnIaC.]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:08 PM, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The Kohm is different in how it displays damage, due to its mechanic. It actually displays its damage before spool-up, which means that it is per pellet(unless you add multishot).

The biggest problem with using gas on the Kohm is that it's status chance gets split between all of the pellets. So even if you have 100% status chance, each pellet has ~8.33% status chance at full spool (though some people are debating whether or not this is true, as testing has been inconclusive).

I'm a little late to this discussion, but to answer your question on how status works for shotguns, if the weapon has a listed 100% status chance in the Arsenal UI before multishot is applied, all pellets will proc.

It is entirely possible to achieve 100% status with the Kohm with a status line on a Riven combined with as many 60/60 status mods as required, or as OP has suggested, 4 60/60s and Nano-Applicator. Since Kohm presently has a high disposition, achieving that 100% breakpoint is easy enough. Example below:

Spoiler

 

If you were below 100% status, the chance per pellet is significantly lowered. It isn't simply divided among the pellets; understanding probabilities will allow you to calculate the individual pellet chance. I won't go too much into the math, but you could ask if you wanted to know. For now, taking it as being distributed among the pellets will be a generally valid approximation.

Regarding what happens to < 100% status chance as the spool-up increases and more pellets are shot out, I'll take a leap of faith and hazard that the individual pellet proc chance still remains the same, but the overall status chance increases since you're shooting more pellets. I don't know this for sure though, but I find the line on the Kohm wikia stating "Linear status chance; as more pellets are ejected, the high status status is distributed between the pellets, reducing the overall chance to proc." to be dubious.

 

Additionally, be mindful of the data you're collecting from Warframe builder. I don't believe it provides any information on status damage over time effects, but what I find pretty disturbing is the fact that the calculations it uses don't necessarily apply to all weapons accurately. I just revisited some of the shotgun builds to check dps comparisons with Rivens and found this particularly trashy build for the Tigris Prime claiming to produce the highest dps:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_33220022_167-6-3-170-0-5-175-4-5-178-3-5-186-5-5-190-7-5-359-1-5-482-2-10_170-6-359-6-482-7-178-8-175-11-186-9-167-5-190-5/en/2-0-96/108631/0

Any sane person using the Tigris Prime knows that adding Shotgun Spazz or any other fire rate mod to a Tigris does NOTHING for dps, but the website doesn't include Tigris's firing mechanic so it considers an increased fire rate as contributing to burst dps. This is just one example of where well-established and highly popular systems produce numbers that can be misleading.

Edited January 29, 2017 by InsomnIaC.

[Inarticulate]

@-AoN-CanoLathra- @InsomnIaC.

To clarify how status is divided between pellets, the graph looks like this (numbers in the legend are number of pellets):

Multishot (as well as the Kohm and Kohmak's pellet spool-up) simply clones pellets, so the status per pellet is always the same before and after multishot.

While you can technically use the after-multishot weapon status chance and pellet count to do the same calculation, it's easier to work with the before-multishot numbers to avoid rounding error (99.999% weapon status chance corresponds to a mere 68% pellet status chance with 10 pellets, which is a massive difference) and to avoid the thorny situation of dealing with fractional pellet counts.

[InsomnIaC.]

So the listed status chance applies to only when the Kohm shoots its initial base count of pellets? I'm not a fan of the Kohm, but what I do understand is that it starts out with 1 pellet which increases to a maximum of 12. Does this mean that the first pellet actually functions identically to other single-projectile weapons (before multishot)? In that case the Kohm actually attains higher status chance probabilities per shot when at full spool than the listed chance, which is pretty good.

For 100% status chance before multishot, that would be irrelevant since all pellets would be proccing anyway.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

21 hours ago, InsomnIaC. said:

I'm a little late to this discussion, but to answer your question on how status works for shotguns, if the weapon has a listed 100% status chance in the Arsenal UI before multishot is applied, all pellets will proc.

It is entirely possible to achieve 100% status with the Kohm with a status line on a Riven combined with as many 60/60 status mods as required, or as OP has suggested, 4 60/60s and Nano-Applicator. Since Kohm presently has a high disposition, achieving that 100% breakpoint is easy enough. Example below:

  Hide contents

 

If you were below 100% status, the chance per pellet is significantly lowered. It isn't simply divided among the pellets; understanding probabilities will allow you to calculate the individual pellet chance. I won't go too much into the math, but you could ask if you wanted to know. For now, taking it as being distributed among the pellets will be a generally valid approximation.

Regarding what happens to < 100% status chance as the spool-up increases and more pellets are shot out, I'll take a leap of faith and hazard that the individual pellet proc chance still remains the same, but the overall status chance increases since you're shooting more pellets. I don't know this for sure though, but I find the line on the Kohm wikia stating "Linear status chance; as more pellets are ejected, the high status status is distributed between the pellets, reducing the overall chance to proc." to be dubious.

 

Additionally, be mindful of the data you're collecting from Warframe builder. I don't believe it provides any information on status damage over time effects, but what I find pretty disturbing is the fact that the calculations it uses don't necessarily apply to all weapons accurately. I just revisited some of the shotgun builds to check dps comparisons with Rivens and found this particularly trashy build for the Tigris Prime claiming to produce the highest dps:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_33220022_167-6-3-170-0-5-175-4-5-178-3-5-186-5-5-190-7-5-359-1-5-482-2-10_170-6-359-6-482-7-178-8-175-11-186-9-167-5-190-5/en/2-0-96/108631/0

Any sane person using the Tigris Prime knows that adding Shotgun Spazz or any other fire rate mod to a Tigris does NOTHING for dps, but the website doesn't include Tigris's firing mechanic so it considers an increased fire rate as contributing to burst dps. This is just one example of where well-established and highly popular systems produce numbers that can be misleading.

I was never a fan of the "burst dps" numbers that warframe builder shows, but it is helpful insight for those who understand game mechanics. For example, the kohm's dps is absurdly low on warframe builder because it doesn't account for the multishot spool up. Also, the sustained dps is also inaccurate as the kohm takes multiple shots at max spool, making the total shots per mag roughly 66, but builder shows 245. I knew the kohm had different status mechanics, but i was just unsure about how the gas will proc. Just to clarify, the damage of the gas proc is calculated by the pellet damage, not the overall shot damage. 

2 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

@-AoN-CanoLathra- @InsomnIaC.

To clarify how status is divided between pellets, the graph looks like this (numbers in the legend are number of pellets):

Multishot (as well as the Kohm and Kohmak's pellet spool-up) simply clones pellets, so the status per pellet is always the same before and after multishot.

While you can technically use the after-multishot weapon status chance and pellet count to do the same calculation, it's easier to work with the before-multishot numbers to avoid rounding error (99.999% weapon status chance corresponds to a mere 68% pellet status chance with 10 pellets, which is a massive difference) and to avoid the thorny situation of dealing with fractional pellet counts.

In game stats have this rounding error. Back in the syndicate days, I believed I had a 100% status hek with the new fancy multishot mod, until I learned how the mechanics actually worked. Thank you for the chart. I'm gonna use this extensively. 

[Inarticulate]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

In game stats have this rounding error. 

The rounding error does not occur with before-multishot values because the UI displays enough decimal points for all combinations of base status chance and mods (excluding the useless +15% status chance mods) when multishot is not accounted for.

The math of probability results in the after-multishot values being both closer to 100% and having more places past the decimal, meaning this this the only case where you'll actually have rounding error.

As long as you are always making sure to check for 100% status chance with multishot mods unequipped, you're safe from rounding error.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, Inarticulate said:

The rounding error does not occur with before-multishot values because the UI displays enough decimal points for all combinations of base status chance and mods (excluding the useless +15% status chance mods) when multishot is not accounted for.

The math of probability results in the after-multishot values being both closer to 100% and having more places past the decimal, meaning this this the only case where you'll actually have rounding error.

As long as you are always making sure to check for 100% status chance with multishot mods unequipped, you're safe from rounding error.

Scattered Justice 200% multishot is exactly what we're talking about lol. From around update 16, I eventually caught on how it works. Shotgun Savvy is the useless mod you're talking about, and yes, the 30% increase is just ridiculous when the event mods double that with damage also. I can't wait to get back online and basically "relearn" warframe. I'm just sitting here making a playbook to do when I get back. That's why I'm asking all these questions. Thank you again theorycraft 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Interresting question actually...isn't any kind of toxin dot calculated off the weapons base damage? Hit damage, multishot and reductions shouldn't rly affect it, given DE didn't make a exceptation for shotguns....

Edited January 30, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)Crixus044]

18 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Interresting question actually...isn't any kind of toxin dot calculated off the weapons base damage? Hit damage, multishot and reductions shouldn't rly affect it, given DE didn't make a exceptation for shotguns....

For most weapons yeah, Toxic dot takes 50% of your damage per tick over 9 ticks. The thing with shotguns is that the damage is spread between pellets and so is the status chance. I wasn't sure if each tick would be based off of the pellet damage or overall damage. For example, if I have a shotgun that deals 50,000 damage per shot with 50 pellets, each pellet will deal 1,000 damage. A gas proc will deal 1.25x the toxin damage of that shot as an initial explosion, then deal the 50% dot based off of the explosion. For simplicity sake, let's just say that 30,000 damage was toxin damage. That would be 600 toxin damage per pellet. If one pellet procs gas, then the gas damage would equal 750 initial damage (600*1.25), then 9 ticks of 375. That's what I was asking, and these guys helped me figure it out.

[Inarticulate]

On 1/30/2017 at 3:20 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Interresting question actually...isn't any kind of toxin dot calculated off the weapons base damage?

Entirely correct

On 1/30/2017 at 3:20 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Hit damage, multishot and reductions shouldn't rly affect it, given DE didn't make a exceptation for shotguns....

I believe I only mentioned hit damage (assuming you mean the actual damage that is dealt after armor and damage effectiveness are considered) when mentioning the Corrosive build for the Tigris Prime, which was a tangent conversation and wasn't directly related to the conversation about Toxin proc damage.

Multishot matters because it clones pellets, and the damage over time from Toxin is technically based off of the pellet's base damage and not the weapon's overall base damage. More pellets means more procs, but each individual proc is still the same damage as before.

It's not really that shotguns are exceptions to anything. Non-shotguns behave exactly as if they were shotguns with 1 pellet base, which makes their case simpler. Shotguns are the general case; non-shotguns are a special case with easier math.