Enough With The Knockdowns

[Kyria]

I am finding the knockdown/knockback/stagger to be quite a nuisance at certain points. Limiting player control is something I feel should be used in moderation. My thoughts on this matter is three-fold.

 

1) Faulty surroundings

I think I would not be as annoyed with it if the tiles worked flawlessly for movement (if I did not keep running up on the hack table and yet I get stuck running against a bench, if I did not fail to parkour up and over when "too close" to a wall'n'railing, if I did not get stuck on an invisible item, if I could aim while close to a wall instead of seeing the back of my own head etc.). It feels bad to get caught in a knock-radius when the scenery was unpredictable.

 

2) Variety

I would like it more if the current knockdowns were a larger variety of different player inconveniences. The MOA's aoe stomp is terribly annoying (from a Tenno's point of view), but it is a great attack! I get so frustrated when they multi-stomp me and I get knocked down again just when I was almost back up, but it is - as I said -  a great attack. I like it, as much as it is frustrating to experience. The MOAs inhibit maneuverability and attacks. I would prefer others to do only one of the two and/or do it differently. My suggestions: 

 

KEEP: 

MOAs, Jackal, Healer and Scorpion -> fine as-is (with their current spawn-rate) and should give you the full monty.

 

CHANGE: 

Shield-dude -> nerf aoe and make it a direct hit knockdown only. Jumping or dodging the attack should reliably work.

Grineer Roller -> remove stagger/stun/knock, have it instead apply a quick zap as it zigs by temporarily jamming your primary/secondary weapon; disabling it from firing and reloading momentarily. Tenno has full mobility, can melee and use abilities.

Leaper -> knocks you flat, but you retain full use of abilities and aim+fire.

Disruptor -> remove knock-effect completely.

Ancient toxic -> remove the knock, remove the charge and increase base movement speed.

Runner -> keep the stagger and casting-time, but make the effect of the stagger diminish the further away you are from point of origin, give it a small DoT.

 

UNDECIDED:

Heavy

 

3) Animation and duration

As a space ninja I would of course jump right back up after a knockdown, right? No. I push myself back up as a bewildered meer human would. Getting back up feels just a hint too slow. I suggest:

 

*Increase the base recovery speed slightly or let us use Stamina to speed up the recovery-animation. Handspring/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKja4wv-Whs'>kip up should be the default animation.

 

*When knocked back the Tenno should have a small chance at transferring the force into the floor, keeping that momentum, continuing it into a backroll upon landing, rolling back up to his feet - ready to attack again. The Handspring-mod would increase the chance of this happening.

 

*Keep the current ("slower") animation for the Jackal. The belly-flop is great and he has the arena to warrant this knockdown.

 

 

Well, those are my 2 cents. :)

 

Kyria

<3

[Estred]

You are a space ninja with skills,weapons,melee weapons, a sentinel that shoots everything you shoot at.

 

You can sprint, wall run, flip,slide, air slide, backflip, roll, jump into a tumble, most probably the best thing to do to counter a ninja is to take away his ability to have alot of movement.

 

With everything you have at your disposal, and the enemy's abilities to actually give you a hard time is only knockback i suggest you avoid it, if you are having problems cause you get swarmed? or get mobbed you are doing something wrong. you can parkour to get out of sticky situations you can use cryo rounds to counter enemy movement ( which i think is the best thing to do) Like seriously man they had this knockback thing for months and you are the first guy i have seen to complain about it,

The issue is not that I have problems with it. The issue is that it is the only difficulty option seemingly available. I was thinking further and maybe even Disruptors shouldn't have a knockdown, losing all shield and power is already penalty enough.

 

Go to sleep, you are drunk.

 

Knockback is only a problem if you can't handle distance measures.

 

Since i got Dethcube, rollers are no problem since they die with vaporize before they can hit me. Runners are squishy as hell.

 

Grinner with shield, just jump melee, problem solved.

 

Ancient Healer/Toxic/Disrupter are hell slow, and slower if you have any freeze mod.

Shockwave MoA is the one you should be more careful, since it's an AoE, but still, just get behind a box, and problem solved.

 

I really don't see the need to reduce the knockback mob/effective

lol thanks for the catch I will correct that. Do keep in mind these are pure removals, the idea is to make enemies offer different situations not have the only thing be a knockdown.

 

ROFL

 

You get knocked down?

 

- Ancient Distruptors - They're slow, stay out of their range

- Ancient Healers - They're slow stay out of their range

- Grineer Scorpions - They're super squishy, shoot them before they get in range

- Maybe Grineer Heavy Troops (Bombard/Flamer/Gunner) They're slow, stay out of their range

- Shockwave MOA - They stop all together and do a liitle dance for a few seconds before they knockdown. Walk, don't run, away

- Grineer Rollers - A quick jump attack and these guys go pop

- Runners - They stop all together and do a liitle dance for a few seconds before they knockdown. Walk, don't run, away

- Ancient Healers - wait, you just said you *liked* them having a knockdown o.0

- Toxic Ancients - They're slow, stay out of their range

- Grineer Sheild Units - they're super squishy, shoot them before they get in range

Perhaps I am tired of the lack of diversity with enemies? This post is not about what happens to me it's about diversity in the game.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Estred

[Estred]

It wouldn't half as annoying if some were readily avoidable via skill more than luck. Shockwave Moas and Leapers, for example, are what I'd consider to be knockdown done right - odds are if you get knocked down by either, it was your own fault for failing to jump at the right time or move out of the way while they were winding up.

 

In the case of stuff like disruptors, shield lancers and scorpions though? If they're waiting behind a door you're almost guaranteed to get hit without any real opportunity to avoid or react. As noted, disruptor tentacles are hitscan, even if you get behind them before they finish striking, the tentacle'll magically go through their own chest to hit you. That's a case where skill doesn't really matter, just luck. That shouldn't be the case.

This is a differnt type of quote I wanted to address. You are correct in that Leapers are the knockdown unit of the Infested. This is why I felt really only disruptors/healers (even then maybe only Healers) also have knockdown.

[Nyx.tia]

Railgun moas? You basically get knocked down everytime when you try to get up. Don't even got 1 sec to use skills!

[Neuhnee]

Well, knock downs are *super* easy to avoid. But even if you haven't figured out how to do that yet, this whole post is irrelevant since they made a resistance mod specificly for knockdown

[Zhoyzu]

mass effect 1 had a "physics threshold" which was your resistance to knock down and stagger. it was an awesome mechanic, but one i did not use. maybe a future mod

[Estred]

Railgun moas? You basically get knocked down everytime when you try to get up. Don't even got 1 sec to use skills!

I thought they were Staggers not true knockdowns. I only wished to address the knockdowns that prevented your movement for 3 or more seconds at a time. Hm, seems I have some Corpus missions to run and not obliterate a Railgun the second I see it.

 

 

Well, knock downs are *super* easy to avoid. But even if you haven't figured out how to do that yet, this whole post is irrelevant since they made a resistance mod specificly for knockdown

A very uncommon mod that for all the hours I have racked up even doing farm runs I have yet to see more than

- 1 Split Chamber

- 0 Handspring

- 0 Barrel Diffusion

- 0 Thunderbolt

- 0 Primed Chamber

 

Just because it exists is not a reason to say it's balanced. Having such a mod should be a boon over the system, not a requirement. I would take gameplay that requires different approaches rather than copy pasting something all over and that is what Knockdowns are, copy-paste "difficulty" it's bland.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Estred

[stacey69]

Making Runners actually throw you back was stupid in my opinion. It seems most enemies now are focused on taking away a players ability to well.... play. This isn't hard it's frustrating. I have now lost count the number of times in group or solo that I have been watching Warframe play itself for about 10-20 seconds (providing I haven't died in this time frame).

 

Knockdowns are great, on a few select units.

- Ancient Distruptors*

- Ancient Healers

- Grineer Scorpions

- Maybe Grineer Heavy Troops (Bombard/Flamer/Gunner)

- Shockwave MOA

 

However they are not needed on the following.

- Grineer Rollers

- Runners

- Toxic Ancients

- Grineer Sheild Units

 

Rather each enemy should offer different situations I will elaborate to a few here.

Grinner Rollers: Just remove the CC they should be annoying damagers that are hard to hit, not capable of locking you down which 3-4 can do.

Grineer Shield Units: The rate at which they can knock you down is ridiculous. The shield is annoying to get around already, make them fire from around the shield without exposing themselves easily.

Runners: The biggest addition to the annoyance pool. These guys come in waves of about 40 of them at a time. If they knock you down like disruptor do, it's impossible to play the game. Leave them as a Stagger.

Toxic Ancients: Rather than knockdown have them throw globs of poison. These aren't clouds but rather slow moving projectiles mean we have to dodge.

 

A player should have to adapt to enemies right now enemies are built to screw a players ability to even play the game. This is not good design and it's called fake difficulty. It makes combat a "I kill you before you touch me" kind of combat. Given the only way to combat Knockdown is the rare mod Handspring, this isn't really a good form of design.

Estred this is 1 good reason why they are trying to avoid giving you all group PVP.

 

If the enemy is getting this close to stun you or knock you back its a playstyle issue. No offence but if I got within 30 feet of you or anyone else in Warframe I would tear you and your team mates apart.

 

I and others have videos on youtube showing each faction and how best to play against them and what mods you need to farm/aquire to make life not just easier for you but more fun. Its enjoyable when you Handspring back up and mow down 10 Infested and think wow I would have died before I even got up. How many use Handspring? Its the best mod in game and worth every penny or every minute of farming.

 

Search warframe Stacey or any other warframe x x x x x and have a look. It will help I promise.

[Neuhnee]

A very uncommon mod ~

 

Just because it exists is not a reason to say it's balanced. Having such a mod should be a boon over the system, not a requirement. I would take gameplay that requires different approaches rather than copy pasting something all over and that is what Knockdowns are, copy-paste "difficulty" it's bland.

 

This is a valid point.

 

It's also a valid point to say that knockdowns are so easily avoided that they're really just wasted space in the code.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Neuhnee

[eStecko]

I think those knockdowns need some...

 

[VeronikaStripper]

What is excessive is the runner's blowing up and giving you a delay in movement(whatever it is, knockdown or knockback). I've been chained by these guys.. one comes up behind while im fighting some other mobs.. and pow.. im delay.. another walks up directly after him.. pow.. delayed again... getting chained hit by these constantly for like 6-7 in a row allows the ancients to rip me up, its a bit ridiculous.  Sure, I know it is a necessary thing to have in the game to make it challenging.. but can we get a knockback/knockdown immunity for at least a second so we don't get chain owned?

[Xylia]

You forgot Railgun MOA... that knocks you down every 3 seconds... trough a wall.

 

Doesn't knock you down; it just staggers you.

[Hapcher]

Guys, honestly think how terrible the gameplay would be without knockdowns, either very slightly nerf them or don't touch them at all. 

[Destro6677]

I've been chain-knockdowned by 3 scorpions in a row and I think that's ridiculous. 

 

It doesn't even make sense to throw a harpoon so close to your friends if they're already busy whaling on a space ninja.

 

Imo, the ability is fine, but yes, +1 to the points which say there has to be a limit for these things.

[fatpig84]

The only annoying knock down is Railgun moa knock down, the rest aren't even close lol

[Estred]

Estred this is 1 good reason why they are trying to avoid giving you all group PVP.

 

If the enemy is getting this close to stun you or knock you back its a playstyle issue. No offence but if I got within 30 feet of you or anyone else in Warframe I would tear you and your team mates apart.

 

I and others have videos on youtube showing each faction and how best to play against them and what mods you need to farm/aquire to make life not just easier for you but more fun. Its enjoyable when you Handspring back up and mow down 10 Infested and think wow I would have died before I even got up. How many use Handspring? Its the best mod in game and worth every penny or every minute of farming.

 

Search warframe Stacey or any other warframe x x x x x and have a look. It will help I promise.

Sigh it's not my issue. I was voicing issues I heard from a number of squad mates. I have rarely died from this beyond when I get occasionally chain locked by enemies which is not fun. The suggestion was to introduce other options beyond just knockdowns. Perhaps I worded the title badly but it did get the point I wished to make across in some form.

 

I am not saying remove knockdowns, because they are a great penalty for failing to react. However it's overabundant in my eyes and I would love to see more engaging play beyond playing "Keep Away" with roughly 40% of the enemies (given how often certain ones spawn). Diversify gameplay and introducing new elements may be more difficult but it can be greatly more rewarding. Thank you for the offer on help though. If I do have problems I will look you up.

[eStecko]

Doesn't knock you down; it just staggers you.

Not since a new patch.

[Don_Von_Hulio]

I dont really have a problem with all the knockdown attacks. I think the issue is with non heavy weapons that dont stagger enemies on every hit. Because most of the time it takes like 2 hits to kill one enemy (light weapon non charge attack, enemy is at your level etc) and if you are using a weapon that doesnt hit multiple enemies you are definitely at a disadvantage when being mobbed.

 

But honestly, i think choosing some different weapons would help out alot for those getting killed in mobs. The only thing i get irritated by is the Scorpion Grineer and their ESP, and the fact you cant shoot them for the entire time you are being pulled.

[Trololol_Banana]

Ancient disrupters shouldn't be allowed to hit you down every attack. It's bad enough if they drain your shield and energy completely and make your sight blurry. If you play Xini, Eris, 5 Ancient Disrupters come together with 3 Toxic Ancients and 5 Ancient healers. The healers heal the Disrupters, the Disrupters chainlock, drain your energy and shield and make your sight blurry, which makes your aim inaccurate. And like that isn't enough, they make even your health and shield numbers blurry, so you don't know how much health you have. The Toxics are draining your health with 30 health per second, and you can't use your gear to heal you, because your mouse is blurry too and keep clicking wrong, and you don't know if you still have full health or if your health is 3. Some people would say: "That is what makes it difficult", but seriously, this is just impossible, you can't escape from it.

[wfrawn]

So far my only real problem with knockdown is the knockdown lock that 'laser sniper' robots do. They knock me down again as soon as i get up from the previous knockdown. There just is no time to lose line of sight.

[Azure98]

You know you can use your block button to negate 90% of all Knock downs and flinches right? or just dodge roll
I mean you can Block an Ancient Disruptor and not only will you not be knocked down but your Shields and Energy wont be drained either.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Azure98

[Trololol_Banana]

You know you can use your block button to negate 90% of all Knock downs and flinches right? or just dodge roll

I mean you can Block an Ancient Disruptor and not only will you not be knocked down but your Shields and Energy wont be drained either.

I tried multiple times but it didn't work. Do you know any video that shows how to block an Ancient?

[Fenrisyn]

I personally feel that stuns/knockdowns/movement impairment are bad ways to add difficulty to a game. It is what I would call "difficulty filler". GW2 is a good example of this being used in excess. It is as if they were trying to stop players from overpowering an otherwise 0 difficulty PvE by throwing a ridiculous number of stuns your way.

 

Last night I got knocked down by an exploding Runner, and other Runners started exploding in just the right sequence of delays to keep me chain stunned for about 20 seconds straight. That is just way too excessive a time to have no control over your character -- literally 1/3 of a minute you are sitting there waiting for the game to become interactive and playable again. Any mechanic that could have achieved the same effect with a 20 second lag spike or the game hanging up for 20 seconds is not a sound way to increase difficulty.

 

And I know it is easy to avoid knockdowns for the most part, but it shouldn´t keep you locked in that situation if you misstep or get caught off guard.

 

Remember how challenging Mercury and Venus were when brand new to the game? (Players who had high level friends or did public co-op with high ranked players farming materials don´t count). End game difficulty should feel more like that. Conquering the first 2 planets with low ranked warframes, without highly fusioned mods, without Redirection, and a poorly modded MK-1 Braton that took multiple headshots just to kill a Grineer Lancer...was actually a very well balanced challenge level, and was far more difficult than the current end game. You had to be very conservative of your ammo (especially if you didnt know about ammo boxes), and you were always on your toes due to your fragility.

 

It was challenging, without enemies feeling like bullet sponges, and it accomplished it without any stuns at all.

 

Stun locks are cheap whether used by NPCs or Players, because it shuts out the player from actually playing. At the very least, add a short period of immunity, even a half a second, between stuns to give the player a chance to counter the situation.

[JackTheHumpingCat]

Have to say I agree with Fenrisyn, seems like a bit of a cheap move to add knockdowns on the runners. I got ping ponged around the last map I played (in no real danger but really frustrating) for about 20 bloody seconds and could do nothing to stop us losing the objective. I like added difficulty but this isn't the way to achieve it.  

 

[Parfisright]

I agree too...... Its frustrating if your getting knocked down by the runners and ya can't get up because their exploding all around you. the last map i played, I was up and down like a bloody yo-yo, got fed up and quit the game.. Although i have no problem with it being more difficult, there's enough to knock you on your &amp;#&#33; with the healers and the disrupters....