That Voice At The End Of The War Within.

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

there's been a lot of speculation as to who that voice is, but I think I've cracked it, and along with it much more. The main theories so far are the voice is: Ballas, Our Warframe, Our dad, Nef anyo, and some more, But I'm going to go a little further. (Please excuse the sloppiness, it's late and I'll fix it later)

Ballas: This seems very logical as he is an important character in the series and plays a huge role in lore and the creation of warframes.

Our warframe: As much as I would LOVE for this to be true, It's not. 

Nef anyo: Not my main theory, but the child in the glast gambit refers to Nef as the "Dark eyed man" and who else has dark eyes? The voice.

Our Dad: The voice calls us kiddo, And our character states that his dad use to call him the same thing... This obviously is the correct answer as otherwise it would just be sloppy writing... But who is our dad?... That's right, 

its Ballas.

Let me go even further and state marguilis is our mother, And here's why: In the second dream quest marguilis teaches us to dream before her murder. She quotes "This should stop the voices from taking hold, you will have to dream, my angel." And who else calls us angel? That's right,

Our mother. (On a side note, these voices she talks about are the same infested helminth virus we hear talking to us once nidus opens the door, I'll explain later)

During a sequence in the war within our character retains the memory of his mother and as narrated by the queen's, she tells him "But don't worry angel, youre safe with me" And who likes to keep us safe?

Marguilis.

Its pretty easy to connect the dots and see DE are hinting things at us... And heres some further explanation: 

The voice states: "Just remember kiddo, without me youre nothing"  and again, who created the warframes? Who gave us all our power? Who would we be nothing without? That's right,

Ballas.

So basically (Keep in mind I have lots more research on much more things to back all this up, can't post now) Ballas and marguilis were lovers and they most likely had a child (maybe marguilis tried hide this and it's the reason she tries protect us?) I think, since throughout the whole storyline we play as a "special" tenno (We wake up, meet the queen's, have ordis etc) That the reason we are so special, is because we are thw forbidden child of marguilis and Ballas. And just for sticking around and reading all this, Here's some more special info, The Lotus knew marguilis personally (Or was she marguilis??? More on that later), Alas V was most likely an extremely high ranking orokin who chose to keep himself alive through metallic bodies (Thus why he hates the tenno so much and why hunhow calls him an orokin) And stalker neither a tenno nor an orokin, but a lowly human servant to the orokin who experimented with transference.

Edited March 3, 2017 by (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom

[Latiac]

The thing is Hunhow is likely to call anything Vaguely human an Orokin, the corpus are descendants of the Orokin or were around during the time of the Orokin as merchant smugglers, According to the Mara Detrons lore text anyway - To him we're all the same, all Orokin and we must all die.

I'm not sure what it is, I'm thinking it's the void itself talking, the way the operators eyes glow and everything as it happens, and the slightly demonic sounding voice.

The infested room and Helminth to some degree mention the Operator as a void demon, but praise the warframes as masters.

Maybe it's ACTUALLY the other way around, We may appear to be in control. For now that is - 'You're nothing without me Kiddo'

We might learn (hopefully) that the warframes are alive and work in a relationship with the operators, they do our bidding, the work and protect us, and we in return do the same - The warframes might very well need the void to survive - So I'm pretty certain it isn't the warframes themselves speaking to us. for now atleast.

But interesting theories noneoftheless - But it's hard to determine what could exactly happen, We wanted to have quested answered and we got a bunch more.

 

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

Just now, Latiac said:

The thing is Hunhow is likely to call anything Vaguely human an Orokin, the corpus are descendants of the Orokin or were around during the time of the Orokin as merchant smugglers, According to the Mara Detrons lore text anyway - To him we're all the same, all Orokin and we must all die.

I'm not sure what it is, I'm thinking it's the void itself talking, the way the operators eyes glow and everything as it happens, and the slightly demonic sounding voice.

The infested room and Helminth to some degree mention the Operator as a void demon, but praise the warframes as masters.

Maybe it's ACTUALLY the other way around, We may appear to be in control. For now that is - 'You're nothing without me Kiddo'

We might learn (hopefully) that the warframes are alive and work in a relationship with the operators, they do our bidding, the work and protect us, and we in return do the same - The warframes might very well need the void to survive - So I'm pretty certain it isn't the warframes themselves speaking to us. for now atleast.

But interesting theories noneoftheless - But it's hard to determine what could exactly happen, We wanted to have quested answered and we got a bunch more.

 

But alad V also calls us betrayers, And states many times he himself remembers what happened on "The day" that all tenno can't remember. Also a long running belief of mine is that the warframes are 100percent alive, since at the end of the second dream they pull the sword out of themselves (most believe that to be the tenno using transference, but I don't think his skills were evolved enough)

[(XBOX)draknic]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

But alad V also calls us betrayers, And states many times he himself remembers what happened on "The day" that all tenno can't remember. Also a long running belief of mine is that the warframes are 100percent alive, since at the end of the second dream they pull the sword out of themselves (most believe that to be the tenno using transference, but I don't think his skills were evolved enough)

Also at the time a neck hug, meaning the Operator was having a hard time breathing at the time and I think it take a lot of brain power to focus on moving a warframe about...so likely have a form of life.

[Blakrana]

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Nef anyo: Not my main theory, but the child in the glast gambit refers to Nef as the "Dark eyed man" and who else has dark eyes? The voice.

Something having a similar description to something else does not make that the same thing.

Anyone making theories off that needs to step back and work on their reading comprehension.

5 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

But who is our dad?... That's right, 

its Ballas.

Except that's entirely impossible because that would mean Ballas would have been on the Zariman and thus driven mad by the Void like everyone but the eventual Tenno and ultimately dead with the rest of them. The Protagonist Operator's parents were on Zariman with them. They died there, with the rest of the non-Tenno crew.

It is stated repeatedly that the only thing to survive of the Zariman is the Tenno themselves. There is no evidence to the contrary as of yet. Indeed, that's the one thing that's been very consistent since far back to the Ember Prime codex; Zariman was empty but for the children.

5 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And who else calls us angel? That's right,

Our mother. (On a side note, these voices she talks about are the same infested helminth virus we hear talking to us once nidus opens the door, I'll explain later)

During a sequence in the war within our character retains the memory of his mother and as narrated by the queen's, she tells him "But don't worry angel, youre safe with me" And who likes to keep us safe?

Marguilis.

Two people using the same metaphor does not provide any evidence of which to claim they're the same person. Two people wanting to keep you safe does not mean they're the same person.

And again...Margulis couldn't be on Zariman due to the fact that only the Tenno survived it; that's why they're the Tenno...the survivors of Ten Zero. Everyone else? Driven mad and murderous. Margulis on the Zariman would mean nobody to develop Transference Therapy...nobody to argue for them to not be destroyed.

As for 'the voice is Helminth'...That's a leap of logic with very little to back it up. Not only do we not know the nature of the 'voices' Margulis is talking about, we also do not know anything of the content of what they said either. Helminth is meanwhile something for all we know unique, much as Ordis is unique...the only reason there's 'many' is per the 'Everyone's the hero' MMO writing headache.

Too little evidence for the leaps made.

5 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

The voice states: "Just remember kiddo, without me youre nothing"  and again, who created the warframes? Who gave us all our power? Who would we be nothing without? That's right,

Ballas.

Firstly, the entire focus of TWW is that the Tenno have been warded from their own Void abilities per it being tied up with the horror of Zariman, something that Margulis felt was too much for them to handle; indeed, Teshin isn't thrilled about having to undo that kind lie. The Orokin didn't give the Tenno their Void abilities, however...indeed, it's what allows them to resist the Queen at all. Both Teshin and the Queen also discuss the Void more akin to a borderline entity than a place, considering the language, particularly Teshin's '...the world that watches and dreams' comment.

Secondly, Transference was Margulis' invention, and Ballas hijacked it for the Warframe project for Orokin ends, not kindness. Transference therapy was helping the Tenno and Margulis' work was strictly humanitarian and healing per Silvanna's account...and she was executed by the Executors (of whom Ballas belongs) for 'apostasy' which may just be official jargon for trying to resist their efforts to weaponize the Tenno via the eventual Warframe project. As Ballas himself says in the Crewman Synthesis "The law is the Orokin and the Orokin is the law"...'our word is law' in essence.

Thirdly, a grand 0 Warframe specific events occurs, not even a TSD style sudden motion. The crux of the quest is the Tenno and their relationship to the Void and the events upon Zariman. Warframes aren't a direct factor, so whatever is talking down to the Tenno is tied into the Void in some form or other, most logically.

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Ballas and marguilis were lovers and they most likely had a child (maybe marguilis tried hide this and it's the reason she tries protect us?)

Sure. Ballas says "Hush my wilted love" that one time. Maybe they were lovers once...but seeing as even that is rather vague and in and of itself nothing to assume any form of tryst that'd result in a child. Wild speculation is all that is, as being lovers does not necessitate offspring whatsoever. 

Furthermore, Margulis tried to protect all Tenno. The singular perspective is, again, per the MMO standard writing problem: You're one of many, but when it comes to story things, you're 'The Hero'. See the same thing in Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, etc.

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

The Lotus knew marguilis personally

Unlikely. Not only does she talk about her largely in the past tense, but if we're to understand that the woman executed at the start of the Crewman Synthesis,  "The greatest scholar of genetics that ever lived", was Margulis, the same Synthesis entry that shows us the start of the eventual Sentients...Margulis and the Warframe project predate the Sentients outright, and thus Lotus only knows what she learned infiltrating as Natah.

Sure. We don't know if that woman is indeed Margulis in that entry...but seeing as it's an awfully specific start to things, it stands out as questionable why it's there. Should Margulis be the woman executed, her death comes a long, long time before the Sentient conflict.

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Alas V was most likely an extremely high ranking orokin who chose to keep himself alive through metallic bodies

No evidence for that whatsoever.

All people have for the 'Alad is Orokin' is the words of an entity that likely doesn't care for the differences between human caste groups and uses the same brush. For Hunhow, Orokin=Human and Human=Orokin. The only exception to that would be the Tenno themselves, and that's mostly to append Monster/Demon etc.

Alad V's calling us Betrayers is something that has been done since the fall of the Orokin by the survivors; Dax Menz in the Ancient Healer Synthesis even pauses to call the Tenno that when Ontella uses it to dig at his pride. And Alad V like many other Corpus higher ups (least before he got kicked out), likely has the ability to look at accounts and records from the fall of the empire...after all, calling the Tenno Betrayers is a common Corpus thing, ergo as a whole they have a collective account from which that stems.

Frohd Bek also calls us Betrayers, after all, despite Darvo's protestations to that. Doesn't make him Orokin though.

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And stalker neither a tenno nor an orokin, but a lowly human servant to the orokin who experimented with transference.

Except Hunhow is pretty blatant about drawing the comparisons between the Stalker and the Tenno, even noting he's asking the question 'Was I one of these wretched things?'

Sure. Stalker's relation to Tenno as a whole is open to reasonable doubt in either direction...but the implication certainly seems to raise the specter of him being formerly a Tenno.

If nothing else, Transference isn't a technology that regular humans can use easily or even safely it seems, seeing as Silvanna was rendered rather insensate after becoming a bunch of trees to say nothing of her noticing a presence when she employed a Titania for testing purposes. If Stalker is some random shlub who got access to it, it broke their mind like it did Silvanna.

---

All told, there is far too little to support the argument trying to make. We have far too little to work with considering this errant 'Voice', so...much like the Warframe's sudden motion at the end of TSD...we need further incidents such as this to build up a profile of events to draw logical conclusions as to what it may be. Till that time, it's a notable event that is recorded as a deviation from the norm until proven otherwise.

Jumping to conclusions with only one piece of information can't bring us to the truth of the situation in a reliable manner. Especially when the setting is wrapped in so many metaphors and ambiguities that we need to recognize how things are capable of being interpreted.

[Othergrunty]

Something i like to throw in as possebility.

It's the Tenno him/herself

Or a version of your character who got replaced with the current one.

The whole quest is about unlocking memories of a painfull event the Tenno went through. Memories that were locked away by Margullis in an attempt by her to help the kids. So it's possible it not only unlocked some informations but an entire personality which was then overwritten with the person your Tenno is now.

Perhaps Planescape Tormet is the reason this was the first idea that came to my mind at the end.

Though this doesn't rule out that this past personality could have been infused with something from the void which our current Tenno has not.

 

[Jeoxz]

Nice theory!

[Night10194]

It's your dad. It's why he calls you kiddo. That's his established verbal tick. He's the one who was among the first to get paranoid when 10-0 got void-mired. He's probably still out there, corrupted or something.

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

4 hours ago, Night10194 said:

It's your dad. It's why he calls you kiddo. That's his established verbal tick. He's the one who was among the first to get paranoid when 10-0 got void-mired. He's probably still out there, corrupted or something.

Please read the whole thing before you comment, otherwise irrelevant stuff like this comes up.

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

11 hours ago, Blakrana said:

Something having a similar description to something else does not make that the same thing.

Anyone making theories off that needs to step back and work on their reading comprehension.

Except that's entirely impossible because that would mean Ballas would have been on the Zariman and thus driven mad by the Void like everyone but the eventual Tenno and ultimately dead with the rest of them. The Protagonist Operator's parents were on Zariman with them. They died there, with the rest of the non-Tenno crew.

It is stated repeatedly that the only thing to survive of the Zariman is the Tenno themselves. There is no evidence to the contrary as of yet. Indeed, that's the one thing that's been very consistent since far back to the Ember Prime codex; Zariman was empty but for the children.

Two people using the same metaphor does not provide any evidence of which to claim they're the same person. Two people wanting to keep you safe does not mean they're the same person.

And again...Margulis couldn't be on Zariman due to the fact that only the Tenno survived it; that's why they're the Tenno...the survivors of Ten Zero. Everyone else? Driven mad and murderous. Margulis on the Zariman would mean nobody to develop Transference Therapy...nobody to argue for them to not be destroyed.

As for 'the voice is Helminth'...That's a leap of logic with very little to back it up. Not only do we not know the nature of the 'voices' Margulis is talking about, we also do not know anything of the content of what they said either. Helminth is meanwhile something for all we know unique, much as Ordis is unique...the only reason there's 'many' is per the 'Everyone's the hero' MMO writing headache.

Too little evidence for the leaps made.

Firstly, the entire focus of TWW is that the Tenno have been warded from their own Void abilities per it being tied up with the horror of Zariman, something that Margulis felt was too much for them to handle; indeed, Teshin isn't thrilled about having to undo that kind lie. The Orokin didn't give the Tenno their Void abilities, however...indeed, it's what allows them to resist the Queen at all. Both Teshin and the Queen also discuss the Void more akin to a borderline entity than a place, considering the language, particularly Teshin's '...the world that watches and dreams' comment.

Secondly, Transference was Margulis' invention, and Ballas hijacked it for the Warframe project for Orokin ends, not kindness. Transference therapy was helping the Tenno and Margulis' work was strictly humanitarian and healing per Silvanna's account...and she was executed by the Executors (of whom Ballas belongs) for 'apostasy' which may just be official jargon for trying to resist their efforts to weaponize the Tenno via the eventual Warframe project. As Ballas himself says in the Crewman Synthesis "The law is the Orokin and the Orokin is the law"...'our word is law' in essence.

Thirdly, a grand 0 Warframe specific events occurs, not even a TSD style sudden motion. The crux of the quest is the Tenno and their relationship to the Void and the events upon Zariman. Warframes aren't a direct factor, so whatever is talking down to the Tenno is tied into the Void in some form or other, most logically.

Sure. Ballas says "Hush my wilted love" that one time. Maybe they were lovers once...but seeing as even that is rather vague and in and of itself nothing to assume any form of tryst that'd result in a child. Wild speculation is all that is, as being lovers does not necessitate offspring whatsoever. 

Furthermore, Margulis tried to protect all Tenno. The singular perspective is, again, per the MMO standard writing problem: You're one of many, but when it comes to story things, you're 'The Hero'. See the same thing in Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, etc.

Unlikely. Not only does she talk about her largely in the past tense, but if we're to understand that the woman executed at the start of the Crewman Synthesis,  "The greatest scholar of genetics that ever lived", was Margulis, the same Synthesis entry that shows us the start of the eventual Sentients...Margulis and the Warframe project predate the Sentients outright, and thus Lotus only knows what she learned infiltrating as Natah.

Sure. We don't know if that woman is indeed Margulis in that entry...but seeing as it's an awfully specific start to things, it stands out as questionable why it's there. Should Margulis be the woman executed, her death comes a long, long time before the Sentient conflict.

No evidence for that whatsoever.

All people have for the 'Alad is Orokin' is the words of an entity that likely doesn't care for the differences between human caste groups and uses the same brush. For Hunhow, Orokin=Human and Human=Orokin. The only exception to that would be the Tenno themselves, and that's mostly to append Monster/Demon etc.

Alad V's calling us Betrayers is something that has been done since the fall of the Orokin by the survivors; Dax Menz in the Ancient Healer Synthesis even pauses to call the Tenno that when Ontella uses it to dig at his pride. And Alad V like many other Corpus higher ups (least before he got kicked out), likely has the ability to look at accounts and records from the fall of the empire...after all, calling the Tenno Betrayers is a common Corpus thing, ergo as a whole they have a collective account from which that stems.

Frohd Bek also calls us Betrayers, after all, despite Darvo's protestations to that. Doesn't make him Orokin though.

Except Hunhow is pretty blatant about drawing the comparisons between the Stalker and the Tenno, even noting he's asking the question 'Was I one of these wretched things?'

Sure. Stalker's relation to Tenno as a whole is open to reasonable doubt in either direction...but the implication certainly seems to raise the specter of him being formerly a Tenno.

If nothing else, Transference isn't a technology that regular humans can use easily or even safely it seems, seeing as Silvanna was rendered rather insensate after becoming a bunch of trees to say nothing of her noticing a presence when she employed a Titania for testing purposes. If Stalker is some random shlub who got access to it, it broke their mind like it did Silvanna.

---

All told, there is far too little to support the argument trying to make. We have far too little to work with considering this errant 'Voice', so...much like the Warframe's sudden motion at the end of TSD...we need further incidents such as this to build up a profile of events to draw logical conclusions as to what it may be. Till that time, it's a notable event that is recorded as a deviation from the norm until proven otherwise.

Jumping to conclusions with only one piece of information can't bring us to the truth of the situation in a reliable manner. Especially when the setting is wrapped in so many metaphors and ambiguities that we need to recognize how things are capable of being interpreted.

You wrote waaay to much to type out and counter it all (Not a bad thing, I love discussion!) But here's some pointers, I've already spoken about aladv in other replies, check them they debunk your theory. And here's some more stuff : marguilis and ballas didn't have to be there physically, as we know there are many alternatives. Also it's well known they were lovers, I could go find the info to back that up but since it's well known in the warframe community I think there's no need also about that helminth, it's pretty obvious that's what the voices marguilis talks about that (either that or the voice that talks to us in WW maybe that's what the voice is? It would make sense if my ballas theory is proven wrong) Since the helminth talks to us and is responsible for our powers, all tenno were and are infested "No crew aboard, only the children, only the parricidal monsters they had become" It's a well known fact in the community now that the tenno got their powers from the helminth, it is "your flesh" as lephantis would say.

Edited March 3, 2017 by (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

Also, I have MUCH more evidence for all this stuff I should probs type out eventually (trust me it'll blow your mind) But it's waaaay to awkward on a phone.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Since the helminth talks to us and is responsible for our powers

What "powers" exactly? Every supernatural ability the Tenno have are from the Void.

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

all tenno were and are infested

There's no proof of that outside of vague lines. Being immune doesn't mean they have it within them already, and Helminth is very unclear. Too much room for interpretation.

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

It's a well known fact in the community now that the tenno got their powers from the helminth, it is "your flesh" as lephantis would say.

I have never once seen this "fact" before. And again, what "powers" are you referring to?

[Blakrana]

Just now, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

I've already spoken about aladv in other replies, check them they debunk your theory

No they don't. They're just more of the general willingness to accept Hunhow's 'Orokin called Alad V' at face value. Something which, in a setting where you can make a drinking game out of the ambiguous statements, is an unwise play.

Consider after all that Alad refers to the moon as a myth, so he clearly wasn't around to actually know otherwise...something a true Orokin would know existed. And as stated, Betrayer has been used in reference to the Tenno by others long before, so him using it means nothing.

Toss in that Orokin also know how Warframes work and what Warframes are...Alad being Orokin is a confusion born solely out of people taking Hunhow's statement for more than logically makes sense. After all, see the Queens. Their knowledge of Tenno and Warframes basically had us dead to rights. Hunhow's knowledge put us in genuine danger. 

Best Alad could manage? Killing inactive Warframes and making the Zanuka abomination. Then he got infested and came sniveling for help when it got too much.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And here's some more stuff : marguilis and ballas didn't have to be there physically, as we know there are many alternatives.

There is nothing to state they were there in any capacity. And the Zariman predates the development of Transference so there's no 'Margulis and Ballas were using Transference!' out either. Continuity is also not an option, seeing as that's typically intended to be done within physical proximity and limited to the Orokin elite at that; Margulis being an Archimedian, I sincerely doubt she would be involved...to say nothing of her likely moral objections to the practice potentially.

Seeing as the Operator's mother was physically there to lead them to safety, their father was physically there to look into space with them...they cannot be Margulis or Ballas, in any capacity. They'd be dead if they were...or they'd be unable to help them if they weren't, breaking the course of events.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Also it's well known they were lovers, I could go find the info to back that up

"Hush my wilted love, I cannot protect you"

Hardly 'they were 100% lovers' material. Sure, it implies something but there's no reason it can't also just be one-sided. For all we know Margulis was just Ballas' squeeze at the time and, once she began resisting the Orokin edicts to weaponize the Tenno...well, "Seven hands raised! For your apostasy, the judgement is...death. Margulis...why?" followed step. Not all love is reciprocal, healthy or respectful, after all...But of course, that's just an interpretation of the material. Could go either way, needing further information to corroborate either account.

Still doesn't give any evidence of a familial connection to the Protagonist Operator at all. Indeed, it was Ballas who was arguing for the destruction of the Tenno outright until they found a way to make them useful with Transference and the events of the Rhino Prime Codex; the first account of Transference into a combat form, essentially.

"What they need Margulis is to be destroyed!"

"They're devils from that hell. Not human anymore."

End of the day...Ballas and Margulis' relationship isn't, surprise surprise, actually relevant to the plot. It's a minor character detail which...kind of emphasizes how much of a heartless bastard Ballas really is, expanding on what was shown in his first showing in Crewman Synthesis, his involvement with Ordis' fate, his involvement with Titania...Cross Ballas, you die if you're lucky. I'd cut him some slack if the vote had been 6:1 but, well...7 hands means it was a unanimous decision between Executors, which includes him as a result.

Such love, eh? Maybe for Orokin it was like loving a pet, though. We love our pets when we put them down, do we not?

But of course, that's just an alternative interpretation of events, needing more evidence to weigh in how valid it really is.

I enjoy theory...but it needs to be substantiated first, else it just reads like awkward, clunky fanfiction. More than enough to go around of that, certainly.

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

5 hours ago, Blakrana said:

No they don't. They're just more of the general willingness to accept Hunhow's 'Orokin called Alad V' at face value. Something which, in a setting where you can make a drinking game out of the ambiguous statements, is an unwise play.

Consider after all that Alad refers to the moon as a myth, so he clearly wasn't around to actually know otherwise...something a true Orokin would know existed. And as stated, Betrayer has been used in reference to the Tenno by others long before, so him using it means nothing.

Toss in that Orokin also know how Warframes work and what Warframes are...Alad being Orokin is a confusion born solely out of people taking Hunhow's statement for more than logically makes sense. After all, see the Queens. Their knowledge of Tenno and Warframes basically had us dead to rights. Hunhow's knowledge put us in genuine danger. 

Best Alad could manage? Killing inactive Warframes and making the Zanuka abomination. Then he got infested and came sniveling for help when it got too much.

There is nothing to state they were there in any capacity. And the Zariman predates the development of Transference so there's no 'Margulis and Ballas were using Transference!' out either. Continuity is also not an option, seeing as that's typically intended to be done within physical proximity and limited to the Orokin elite at that; Margulis being an Archimedian, I sincerely doubt she would be involved...to say nothing of her likely moral objections to the practice potentially.

Seeing as the Operator's mother was physically there to lead them to safety, their father was physically there to look into space with them...they cannot be Margulis or Ballas, in any capacity. They'd be dead if they were...or they'd be unable to help them if they weren't, breaking the course of events.

"Hush my wilted love, I cannot protect you"

Hardly 'they were 100% lovers' material. Sure, it implies something but there's no reason it can't also just be one-sided. For all we know Margulis was just Ballas' squeeze at the time and, once she began resisting the Orokin edicts to weaponize the Tenno...well, "Seven hands raised! For your apostasy, the judgement is...death. Margulis...why?" followed step. Not all love is reciprocal, healthy or respectful, after all...But of course, that's just an interpretation of the material. Could go either way, needing further information to corroborate either account.

Still doesn't give any evidence of a familial connection to the Protagonist Operator at all. Indeed, it was Ballas who was arguing for the destruction of the Tenno outright until they found a way to make them useful with Transference and the events of the Rhino Prime Codex; the first account of Transference into a combat form, essentially.

"What they need Margulis is to be destroyed!"

"They're devils from that hell. Not human anymore."

End of the day...Ballas and Margulis' relationship isn't, surprise surprise, actually relevant to the plot. It's a minor character detail which...kind of emphasizes how much of a heartless bastard Ballas really is, expanding on what was shown in his first showing in Crewman Synthesis, his involvement with Ordis' fate, his involvement with Titania...Cross Ballas, you die if you're lucky. I'd cut him some slack if the vote had been 6:1 but, well...7 hands means it was a unanimous decision between Executors, which includes him as a result.

Such love, eh? Maybe for Orokin it was like loving a pet, though. We love our pets when we put them down, do we not?

But of course, that's just an alternative interpretation of events, needing more evidence to weigh in how valid it really is.

I enjoy theory...but it needs to be substantiated first, else it just reads like awkward, clunky fanfiction. More than enough to go around of that, certainly.

Again about ballas and marguilis, ask anyone in the warframe community, it is known they were lovers. Of course, ballas is kind of a $&*^ so yeah, he probably did rule to kill her. And alad v Mightn't of been a very high ranking orokin, or maybe he was just corpus around the  time of the orokin and found some method to stay alive (much more likely than him being orokin now that you pointed it out) But he could also be confused at the fact that the tenno were originally supposed to be inside the frames. And no, not all Orokin know how warframes work, only a select few and even at that they barely understand the true origins of the tennos power (Although as the ending of the ember prime codex entry seems to suggest, they knew there was potential) There's also much of the lore yet to be uncovered, and things like: Were there other methods similar to continuity/transference? How did hunhow come back from the dead? And if we can't take hunhows word for the truth, how could we trust the queen's? Sure they're digging through the tennos memories, making them remember certain events but they're also trying to "Corrupt them with despair" She could of easily altered parts. I still am pretty sure about marguilis being our mother, use the same logic as the voice being our father ( be it ballas or not) The word use would otherwise just be bad writing (especially since we never hear the word "angel" from any other character) And even if we are not the child of marguilis, it's most likely she reproduced in some form. And here's a little speculation about The lotus: She's VERY similar and supportive of marguilis. She loves us as children just as marguilis did. Could the lotus have been taken over in some way by marguilis after natah died? Sentients were creations of the orokins and marguilis had knowledge of different technology that the orokin did not, she might of taken over a sentient body (This might sound crazy, I need to get more refreshed on my Lotus lore, it's been a while)

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Again about ballas and marguilis, ask anyone in the warframe community, it is known they were lovers

The community isn't the game. The fact is we only have one line that implies the two may have had a relationship. The only other source is the Saryn Prime trailer acting as a dossier directed to Margulis post death. There is no other information that supports this idea. As said above, it could be various other things, such as a one way feeling.

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Could the lotus have been taken over in some way by marguilis after natah died?

Lotus is Natah, the latter was just her original name. When she said "Natah was the daughter until I destroyed her", it was certainly not in the literal sense. The first thing she explains is that Natah was her old name; nothing more than a name.

"Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother". There wouldn't have been emphasis on 'I' if she wasn't addressing the fact that she cut off her ties to the Sentient (daughter) and decided to be the new caretaker of the Tenno (mother).

Edited March 4, 2017 by LazerSkink

[Blakrana]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

warframe community, it is known they were lovers

Considering how long the 'Mono v Poly Tenno' debate raged, saying nothing of the 'it's obvious they're energy/slugs/guyver!' affairs...Taking anything the community says as 100% gospel is what leads to flame wars when someone conveys someone else's fanon explanation as canon...see the 'Nova can't be primed' debacle for example.

It's implied there's some affection from Ballas...but any details of this supposed relationship don't exist as of yet. Ergo...open to being disputed.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

alad v Mightn't of been a very high ranking orokin, or maybe he was just corpus around the  time of the orokin and found some method to stay alive (much more likely than him being orokin now that you pointed it out)

Darvo is 105 years old. Teshin has been around since the fall of the Empire without having to resort to Continuity as the Queens did.

Death of old age is actually pretty uncommon for the elite and their lucky subordinates. It's thus a question if the Orokin get so ancient even their increased longevity isn't sufficient, thus leading to Continuity rituals.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And no, not all Orokin know how warframes work, only a select few

Considering that the Queens, Orokin who were explicitly shunned by their own caste, still knew about Transference, the Zariman, the nature of Warframes...I consider the question begged actually what Orokin didn't know. Heck, the Prime trailers are basically Ballas pitching the Warframes in some form.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

But he could also be confused at the fact that the tenno were originally supposed to be inside the frames

There is no 'originally meant to be inside'. Warframes are a result of Margulis Transference Therapy being hijacked by Davis' 'creature' coming close in the Rhino Prime Codex. Thus the Warframe Project was born; tailored and designed bodies, housing the mind and thus Void power, of the Tenno, locked in the Dream.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Were there other methods similar to continuity/transference?

Transference is in some ways similar to and related to the Infested, per Margulis' explicit request for Silvanna's assistance, Silvanna being an expert in Infested biology.

Which in turn begs questions on just how really different it is. All that differs between the Tenno and the Infested Hivemind is that we don't control multiple Warframes at once, and are only one mind compared to the Infested's seeming gestalt mind...Which in itself is similar in some ways to the Sentient and their 'all connected' aspect.

Past that, you've got whatever process was employed to turn Ordan Karris into the wreck that is Ordis. May be a Continuity alteration but too little we know as now to say either way.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

How did hunhow come back from the dead?

He was essentially playing possum. Under several metric tonnes of bedrock, perhaps, but that's the reality of their 'defeat'; they feigned it and the only point that faltered is Natah, or Lotus at that juncture, getting cold feet and claiming the Tenno for her own.

Super advanced machine entity that crossed untold ranges to wage war...What's a couple tonnes of rock?

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And if we can't take hunhows word for the truth, how could we trust the queen's?

Because unlike Hunhow, the Queen's have good ground to support their claims. Hunhow not being human, nor likely to appreciate the nuances of their castes, well...Course he mistakes a human for Orokin, far as he's concerned they're one and the same.

The Queens however know that a) the Warframes are Infested derived b) how to hijack Transference c) what happened on the Zariman. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Sure they're digging through the tennos memories, making them remember certain events but they're also trying to "Corrupt them with despair" She could of easily altered parts

Also helps Teshin is there corroborating events. Considering he's very firm about revealing Margulis' lie, revealing the Tenno's truth? The Elder was attacking the Operator with the truth, due to its potency for the ritual. The more people saying something, more likely there's a grain of truth when you pick apart what agenda they have.

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

The word use would otherwise just be bad writing (especially since we never hear the word "angel" from any other character)

No, bad writing isn't using an easily common pet name by different people. Characters do not have ownership of certain turns of phrase to an exclusive level, especially when they're singular statements. Consider that often characters invoke the Stars as we would these days invoke God or whatever. This doesn't make these characters the same person, it makes it an expression. Small scale world building touches.

For the sake of argument, for all we know "angel" is used by anyone as an affectionate deference to a child, not an isolated verbal tic.

And for the third time now: If it was Margulis that'd put her on the Zariman and mean she died there, which would contradict her execution later on. Bear in mind that the Operator's mother is being framed as leading them to safety...something that requires her physical presence, leading to her eventual death when all hell broke loose.

2 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

And even if we are not the child of marguilis, it's most likely she reproduced in some form.

Er...No. There's nothing necessary at all about Margulis having any children of her own. To say nothing of it would be 100% certified irrelevant to the story. All you're stating is an unsupported assumption.

2 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

marguilis had knowledge of different technology that the orokin did not, she might of taken over a sentient body

You're making stuff up.

Firstly: Margulis didn't have some secret technology knowledge the Orokin didn't have. There is nothing to support that claim whatsoever.

Secondly: If the suspicion that it is her being executed during the start of the Crewman Synthesis is correct, Margulis is literally vaporised before the Sentient were even Sentient. Kind of impossible to hijack something when you're mist and gore an untold amount of time before the object of possession.

Something being Similar does not mean it is the Same.

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

On 4/3/2017 at 5:05 AM, Blakrana said:

Considering how long the 'Mono v Poly Tenno' debate raged, saying nothing of the 'it's obvious they're energy/slugs/guyver!' affairs...Taking anything the community says as 100% gospel is what leads to flame wars when someone conveys someone else's fanon explanation as canon...see the 'Nova can't be primed' debacle for example.

It's implied there's some affection from Ballas...but any details of this supposed relationship don't exist as of yet. Ergo...open to being disputed.

Darvo is 105 years old. Teshin has been around since the fall of the Empire without having to resort to Continuity as the Queens did.

Death of old age is actually pretty uncommon for the elite and their lucky subordinates. It's thus a question if the Orokin get so ancient even their increased longevity isn't sufficient, thus leading to Continuity rituals.

Considering that the Queens, Orokin who were explicitly shunned by their own caste, still knew about Transference, the Zariman, the nature of Warframes...I consider the question begged actually what Orokin didn't know. Heck, the Prime trailers are basically Ballas pitching the Warframes in some form.

There is no 'originally meant to be inside'. Warframes are a result of Margulis Transference Therapy being hijacked by Davis' 'creature' coming close in the Rhino Prime Codex. Thus the Warframe Project was born; tailored and designed bodies, housing the mind and thus Void power, of the Tenno, locked in the Dream.

Transference is in some ways similar to and related to the Infested, per Margulis' explicit request for Silvanna's assistance, Silvanna being an expert in Infested biology.

Which in turn begs questions on just how really different it is. All that differs between the Tenno and the Infested Hivemind is that we don't control multiple Warframes at once, and are only one mind compared to the Infested's seeming gestalt mind...Which in itself is similar in some ways to the Sentient and their 'all connected' aspect.

Past that, you've got whatever process was employed to turn Ordan Karris into the wreck that is Ordis. May be a Continuity alteration but too little we know as now to say either way.

He was essentially playing possum. Under several metric tonnes of bedrock, perhaps, but that's the reality of their 'defeat'; they feigned it and the only point that faltered is Natah, or Lotus at that juncture, getting cold feet and claiming the Tenno for her own.

Super advanced machine entity that crossed untold ranges to wage war...What's a couple tonnes of rock?

Because unlike Hunhow, the Queen's have good ground to support their claims. Hunhow not being human, nor likely to appreciate the nuances of their castes, well...Course he mistakes a human for Orokin, far as he's concerned they're one and the same.

The Queens however know that a) the Warframes are Infested derived b) how to hijack Transference c) what happened on the Zariman. 

Also helps Teshin is there corroborating events. Considering he's very firm about revealing Margulis' lie, revealing the Tenno's truth? The Elder was attacking the Operator with the truth, due to its potency for the ritual. The more people saying something, more likely there's a grain of truth when you pick apart what agenda they have.

No, bad writing isn't using an easily common pet name by different people. Characters do not have ownership of certain turns of phrase to an exclusive level, especially when they're singular statements. Consider that often characters invoke the Stars as we would these days invoke God or whatever. This doesn't make these characters the same person, it makes it an expression. Small scale world building touches.

For the sake of argument, for all we know "angel" is used by anyone as an affectionate deference to a child, not an isolated verbal tic.

And for the third time now: If it was Margulis that'd put her on the Zariman and mean she died there, which would contradict her execution later on. Bear in mind that the Operator's mother is being framed as leading them to safety...something that requires her physical presence, leading to her eventual death when all hell broke loose.

Er...No. There's nothing necessary at all about Margulis having any children of her own. To say nothing of it would be 100% certified irrelevant to the story. All you're stating is an unsupported assumption.

You're making stuff up.

Firstly: Margulis didn't have some secret technology knowledge the Orokin didn't have. There is nothing to support that claim whatsoever.

Secondly: If the suspicion that it is her being executed during the start of the Crewman Synthesis is correct, Margulis is literally vaporised before the Sentient were even Sentient. Kind of impossible to hijack something when you're mist and gore an untold amount of time before the object of possession.

Something being Similar does not mean it is the Same.

A lot to read so gonna go through it later, most of what you said is either irrelevant or untrue after a quick glance though. Just a quick pointer, Vauban prime trailer "Lust was my sin" again it's obvious she's talking about marguilis it's just pure stupidity if you think otherwise. There is to much evidence to deny that and certainly a lot more evidence to prove it then most of these rebuttals you've come up with, You've said some intriguing things but to deny this obviously canon fact is mere stupidity. Also we know marguilis was an extremely talented orokin and it's possible she did develop things that we haven't even learnt about yet etc.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On March 2, 2017 at 9:22 PM, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

there's been a lot of speculation as to who that voice is, but I think I've cracked it, and along with it much more. The main theories so far are the voice is: Ballas, Our Warframe, Our dad, Nef anyo, and some more, But I'm going to go a little further. (Please excuse the sloppiness, it's late and I'll fix it later)

Ballas: This seems very logical as he is an important character in the series and plays a huge role in lore and the creation of warframes.

Our warframe: As much as I would LOVE for this to be true, It's not. 

Nef anyo: Not my main theory, but the child in the glast gambit refers to Nef as the "Dark eyed man" and who else has dark eyes? The voice.

Our Dad: The voice calls us kiddo, And our character states that his dad use to call him the same thing... This obviously is the correct answer as otherwise it would just be sloppy writing... But who is our dad?... That's right, 

its Ballas.

Let me go even further and state marguilis is our mother, And here's why: In the second dream quest marguilis teaches us to dream before her murder. She quotes "This should stop the voices from taking hold, you will have to dream, my angel." And who else calls us angel? That's right,

Our mother. (On a side note, these voices she talks about are the same infested helminth virus we hear talking to us once nidus opens the door, I'll explain later)

During a sequence in the war within our character retains the memory of his mother and as narrated by the queen's, she tells him "But don't worry angel, youre safe with me" And who likes to keep us safe?

Marguilis.

Its pretty easy to connect the dots and see DE are hinting things at us... And heres some further explanation: 

The voice states: "Just remember kiddo, without me youre nothing"  and again, who created the warframes? Who gave us all our power? Who would we be nothing without? That's right,

Ballas.

So basically (Keep in mind I have lots more research on much more things to back all this up, can't post now) Ballas and marguilis were lovers and they most likely had a child (maybe marguilis tried hide this and it's the reason she tries protect us?) I think, since throughout the whole storyline we play as a "special" tenno (We wake up, meet the queen's, have ordis etc) That the reason we are so special, is because we are thw forbidden child of marguilis and Ballas. And just for sticking around and reading all this, Here's some more special info, The Lotus knew marguilis personally (Or was she marguilis??? More on that later), Alas V was most likely an extremely high ranking orokin who chose to keep himself alive through metallic bodies (Thus why he hates the tenno so much and why hunhow calls him an orokin) And stalker neither a tenno nor an orokin, but a lowly human servant to the orokin who experimented with transference.

Or it's actually "THE" Void trying to assume whatever form best suits it's need to invade and consume your mind and usurp your body to spread into our Universe.

Tenno are a unique conduit, and the 3 "choices" are honestly just whatever this presence "is" getting us to reveal our mindset towards it so it can best manipulate and take over our minds now that the Margulis Safeguards are down.

It is a strategy for CONTROL that portends a true war within.

The memories of Tenno parents descending into the madness of roaming homicidal bands foreshadow dark times ahead.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Blakrana]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

A lot to read so gonna go through it later, most of what you said is either irrelevant or untrue after a quick glance though

So in the same breath as you admit you didn't actually read it, you read enough to know it's all 'irrelevant or untrue'?

Bold claim for someone who hasn't provided even one piece of actual hard evidence to support the argument they're trying to make.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Vauban prime trailer "Lust was my sin" again it's obvious she's talking about marguilis it's just pure stupidity if you think otherwise.

No. It's literally just stating Lust alone. It doesn't state at all what that lust was in relation towards. Lust for Power, Lust for Wealth, Lust for Glory...Could be anything. Saying 'it must be about Margulis!' is tenuous at best without further details.

Work with what's said. Not what you want it to say. Seeing as Ballas does not say 'Lust for Margulis was my sin', then it's Lust in general he's discussing.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

There is to much evidence to deny that and certainly a lot more evidence to prove it then most of these rebuttals you've come up with, You've said some intriguing things but to deny this obviously canon fact is mere stupidity.

Every time you invoke holding counter evidence, and then fail to present it, weakens your stance. Either specify which entries you're citing specifically, from the Synthesis, Cephalon, Codex or Prime trailers, or drop the 'I have evidence that proves my argument' claim. Burden of proof is on you by your own doing; deliver, or stop invoking vagueness as a defence.

Further, the fact you're now resorting to a petty insult is quite unnecessary, and rather telling seeing as you chose that rather than show me your evidence. 

46 minutes ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

Also we know marguilis was an extremely talented orokin and it's possible she did develop things that we haven't even learnt about yet etc.

We know Margulis was an Archimedian, not an Orokin, a lower caste seemingly involved with the study and advancement of the empire's technology; she was a citizen of the Orokin Empire, but not herself an Orokin as that was the ruling caste. Her only known, stated creation is that of Transference Therapy, which lead to the Dream construct as a way to help the Tenno handle their Void derived abilities. No more, no less.

Much as it is certainly possible for her to have made other things, we have no mention of them whatsoever at this time, thus hold no relevance should they exist until they're explicitly mentioned, and your original point was they'd be things the Orokin didn't know about...which is exceptionally unlikely as it's clear that the Archimedians have their work overseen by the Orokin Executors. Failing to satisfy them, or contravening the Principles, carries a hefty price as the Crewman Synthesis shows.

Maybes, what ifs and the like are all well and fine as part of theory crafting...but when they're not supported by evidence provided as part of the argument, they're just wild claims worth as much as the air it takes to speak them; no more, no less.

[Eldnacpeek]

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

it's just pure stupidity if you think otherwise.

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrSnakeyRandom said:

but to deny this obviously canon fact is mere stupidity

 

I'm surprised you received a reply from the other party if you're going to act like this. You haven't given any evidence to support your claims and are stating anyone to oppose your view to be stupid. If we're all stupid for disagreeing with you, where's the discussion? There's no point in continuing further if this is how the thread has ended up.