Advice for a strong mesa build.

[bowiespoon]

Hello fellow tenno! I've been wanting to make a good mesa build for some time, but honestly I have no idea how to play her, let alone make a powerful build for her. Could anyone give me a good build comp and advice on how to play her?

Thanks a ton!

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

7 hours ago, uAir said:

Without CP

And u don't need CP with PM if you are using dual stat mods. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Xzorn]

There's good reason for Mesa to stay on an open and flat surface while not being too mobile.

Far as the CP Vs Power Strength comparison....

 

Spoiler

@271% Power
10.1625x Peace Maker Multiplier
Shooting Gallery +67.75% = 30.79% Increase after Hornet
@200% Power
7.5x Peace Maker Multiplier
Shooting Gallery +50% = 22.73% Increase after Hornet

Difference
100 * (1 + .3079) * 10.1625 = 1,329.15
100 * (1 + .2273) * 7.5 = 920.5
(1329.15 - 920.5) / 920.5 = 44.39% More Total Damage

Lvl 300 Bombard = 99.43% Damage Reduction
CP x1 Lvl 300 Bombard = 99.18% Damage Reduction
100 * (1- .9943) = 0.57
100 * (1 - .9918) = 0.82
(0.82 - 0.57) / 0.57 = 0.4386 = 43.86% More Damage.

90% + 60/60x2
34% Corrosive Weight
Status Trigger per shot
(1 + 0.6 + 0.6) * .1 * 2.8 = 0.616
Corrosive Status Trigger per shot
0.616 * 0.34 = 0.20944
Corrosive Triggers over 3 Seconds assuming ~15 RoF
0.20944 * 45 = 9.423

60/60x2
23% Corrosive Weight
Status Trigger per shot
(1 + 0.6 + 0.6) * .1 * 2.8 = 0.616
Corrosive Status Trigger per shot
0.616 * 0.34 = .1422
Corrosive Triggers over 3 Seconds assuming ~15 RoF
0.1422 * 45 = 6.399

1 Corrosive proc = ~+33% More Total Damage.

Knowing her limitations and working to overcome them while playing to her strengths.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

On 6/23/2017 at 8:07 PM, Xzorn said:

There's good reason for Mesa to stay on an open and flat surface while not being too mobile.

Far as the CP Vs Power Strength comparison....

 

  Hide contents

@271% Power
10.1625x Peace Maker Multiplier
Shooting Gallery +67.75% = 30.79% Increase after Hornet
@200% Power
7.5x Peace Maker Multiplier
Shooting Gallery +50% = 22.73% Increase after Hornet

Difference
100 * (1 + .3079) * 10.1625 = 1,329.15
100 * (1 + .2273) * 7.5 = 920.5
(1329.15 - 920.5) / 920.5 = 44.39% More Total Damage

Lvl 300 Bombard = 99.43% Damage Reduction
CP x1 Lvl 300 Bombard = 99.18% Damage Reduction
100 * (1- .9943) = 0.57
100 * (1 - .9918) = 0.82
(0.82 - 0.57) / 0.57 = 0.4386 = 43.86% More Damage.

90% + 60/60x2
34% Corrosive Weight
Status Trigger per shot
(1 + 0.6 + 0.6) * .1 * 2.8 = 0.616
Corrosive Status Trigger per shot
0.616 * 0.34 = 0.20944
Corrosive Triggers over 3 Seconds assuming ~15 RoF
0.20944 * 45 = 9.423

60/60x2
23% Corrosive Weight
Status Trigger per shot
(1 + 0.6 + 0.6) * .1 * 2.8 = 0.616
Corrosive Status Trigger per shot
0.616 * 0.34 = .1422
Corrosive Triggers over 3 Seconds assuming ~15 RoF
0.1422 * 45 = 6.399

1 Corrosive proc = ~+33% More Total Damage.

Knowing her limitations and working to overcome them while playing to her strengths.

Yes, Ty for the math. I run dual stat mods on PM instead of CP, u don't need CP if you are using dual stat mods. Unless I'm in a group. And I just maxed out blind rage and her Power is now 289%. And my SS is 72% CP is really only good for Grineer. . but I see what your saying.  Ty

Edited June 26, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[uAir]

1) If you're saying the OP doesn't need to worry about level 200+ enemies then any Mesa build will kill the map. But since any Mesa build will kill the map it still stands that the best Mesa build would then be max efficiency, as high duration as you can go, rest into power strength, and ignore range or do whatever you want with range and power strength.

2) if you want to start talking about bragging rights and going to the limits of enemy difficulty then I really don't think FCastle ever did anything above Sorties or Raids. Intelligence or not you are not going to stop 30 grineers firing at you or three bombard rockets detonating around you. You will not disable enough enemies out at 30 meters. Your only hope of surviving and being meaningful past level 200 with FCastle's build is that your allies carry the hell out of you.

3) You can argue all you want about Corrosive Projection being trumped by Corrosive procs but you will be wrong.
It is FAR better to run x4 CP and then run Viral. Your kill speed increases so much if you do this in endurance survival runs. I don't even know why you are trying to debate this. You either have a plan to work around not having x4 CP or you run x4 CP. And there are VERY FEW ways to run without x4 CP in endurance survival missions. FCastle's build is not one of them. And certainly almost no good way to do so with Mesa.

I don't care if you're an Excalibur running Steel Charge. Or a Loki who thinks he needs Energy Siphon for stealth. The fact is you run CP or you end up doing a huge disservice to your allies in any run where the enemy has a good deal of armor.
 

I remember there being a level 100 Vay Hek event a bit ago. I got into a run with x1 CP only (my own). We were unable to win and everyone died so much. I survived but it would've taken too long to finish the fight so I quit.

Next run I ended up with x3 CP on my team and Vay Hek died in about 2 minutes.

It's often VERY easy to differentiate good players from bad ones simply by tabbing and checking to see if they have CP on or not.
You run CP for the group and for increased damage output, you do not run Energy Siphon or Steel Charge or something even more stupid just because you think it works better for you because however much better that one aura works for you I guarantee it doesn't work as good as x4 CP for endurance survivals.
But again, if we are not discussing 200+ bragging rights then any build will work but the best build is as I described above because everything dies to PM too easily on the map.

If you're just doing a spy mission and everyone knows how to do it well then yeah, no CP needed. But those are far and few in between, and again, we are discussing endurance survival missions here.

===========

One of the MAIN reasons why I think Mesa is not as popular as she should be is because too many people go to Warframe Builder and follow really unoptimized builds like the one FCastle is using. It's really inefficient, drains a lot of energy for what you want to be doing. Hell, if I remember correctly, one of the "most popular builds" on Warframe Builder for Mesa makes it so her 2 and 3 cost over 140 energy just to cast.them both. You won't be able to do anything significant with that kind of build. And your kill speed will be practically the SAME as a Mesa with 130% power strength but maxed efficiency and duration. But they'll do more PMs, and last longer in PM, and their 2 and 3 are cheap to cast and will last longer. They somehow don't think that efficiency is important on Mesa and try to base their build around the damage dealt by Peacemaker when they don't realize that 100% base PM can wipe the map and is adequate for even level 200 enemies if you build correctly and have a decent team. At 170% Power Strength your PM will shred most anything anyone would ever want to do. But x4 CP and Viral status plays a pretty big part.

One of the most popular Mesa builds on Warframe Builder.
http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Mesa/t_30_3223300220_5-0-5-6-5-5-12-2-10-13-4-3-55-6-5-411-1-10-479-7-10-481-3-10-615-9-5-780-8-5_5-5-411-8-12-8-481-7-13-7-6-11-55-11-479-7-780-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-31/130456/0

Oh man, so bad. 2/3 lasts about 25 seconds each and cost ~70 energy to cast both. But hey, gotta get that Pistol Amp so you can do 15 damage per shot to armored enemies and 199% power strength for that deeps.

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Mesa/t_30_3220324020_5-7-5-6-3-5-12-1-10-49-6-10-55-0-5-411-2-10-479-5-10-481-4-10-615-9-5-780-8-5_55-6-12-8-411-8-6-11-481-7-479-7-49-8-5-9-780-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-31/119889/0

Again, another Pistol Amp. But at least it's slight better. Still draining energy away at twice the rate of a better optimized build and a better build will still be vastly superior in group play by being more efficient and optimized.

These are the kinds of builds that are bad for Mesa. And FCastle's build looks pretty much like these.

Really, you don't have to take my word for it. Do any of the builds listed in this topic. Go run solo survivals or jump into a pub and attempt to do an endurance survival run. You will see, the more CPs there are in a  group the more likely they are to succeed. The more efficient and duration based the Mesa build, the better it performs in any player's hand because they will simply have more time in Peacemaker doing damage. Power Strength doesn't even begin to matter until around level 200 enemies for PM so long as you have a good team. And if you have an Octavia, Power Strength doesn't matter at all because she will supply you with all you need.

Do the builds, try them out.

Edited June 24, 2017 by uAir

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Yes, try them out. Do what ever build u feel comfortable with. The only power mod you really need is intensify, to get her shatter shield to 95% damage reduction..after that OP go crazy. But here is a video that helped me understand mesa better awhile back and then tweek it to be yours.

good luck to the OP 

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

On 6/23/2017 at 4:09 PM, Xzorn said:

 

Yea. I get caught up at times with numbers but in my defense, it was the lvl 200 comment that triggered me.

It's not that you can't. I just wouldn't recommend it. Esp for a new player who's more likely to make a mistake.

Even at Sorties levels a strong Slash proc will end her without a larger health pool and she can survive most mistakes at those levels while you're not really gaining much for the lack of security.

Just want to say, Ty again for the math, numbers don't lie, and rapid resilience is awesome on Mesa. I've recently changed my build. To CP PD then Blind rage, p flow, efficiency x2, duration x2, vitiliaty, rapid resilience. Efficiency is at 135% but I find it manageable with energize set and Zenurik with energy pizzas just in case. I am enjoying this build, thought u should know.  

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Just want to say, Ty again for the math, numbers don't lie, and rapid resilience is awesome on Mesa. I've recently changed my build. To CP PD then Blind rage, p flow, efficiency x2, duration x2, vitiliaty, rapid resilience. Efficiency is at 135% but I find it manageable with energize set and Zenurik with energy pizzas just in case. I am enjoying this build, thought u should know.  

 

Nice to hear.

Rapid Resilience is one of the bigger reasons I go Efficiency for that free mod slot.

I tried to put her survival to the test last night on Tycho - Lua Corpus Survival. A lvl 250 Tech Eximus is a horrid sight but she did alright.

Gunna try again with an Ancient Healer Specter so she can have lvl 300+ Vs all factions Solo.

[DatDarkOne]

 

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:41 PM, uAir said:

It's often VERY easy to differentiate good players from bad ones simply by tabbing and checking to see if they have CP on or not.
You run CP for the group and for increased damage output, you do not run Energy Siphon or Steel Charge or something even more stupid just because you think it works better for you because however much better that one aura works for you I guarantee it doesn't work as good as x4 CP for endurance survivals.

I do hope that you are just referring to Mesa with this statement.  Otherwise it's complete Bull!@$%.  Why I say this.  There are some frames that don't need CP at all and still have the longest Survival times.  Ash and Ivara are the two that come to mind.  If you think looking at someone's aura mod will tell you if they are a good player or not, then you might as well just go with thinking that high MR means they are good players too.  We all know that one isn't true.  

[uAir]

9 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I do hope that you are just referring to Mesa with this statement.  Otherwise it's complete Bull!@$%.  Why I say this.  There are some frames that don't need CP at all and still have the longest Survival times.  Ash and Ivara are the two that come to mind.  If you think looking at someone's aura mod will tell you if they are a good player or not, then you might as well just go with thinking that high MR means they are good players too.  We all know that one isn't true.  

On 6/23/2017 at 10:41 PM, uAir said:

3) You can argue all you want about Corrosive Projection being trumped by Corrosive procs but you will be wrong.
It is FAR better to run x4 CP and then run Viral. Your kill speed increases so much if you do this in endurance survival runs. I don't even know why you are trying to debate this. You either have a plan to work around not having x4 CP or you run x4 CP. And there are VERY FEW ways to run without x4 CP in endurance survival missions. FCastle's build is not one of them. And certainly almost no good way to do so with Mesa.

Here, I quoted a relevant part of my post for you since you like reading excerpts only.

Edited June 26, 2017 by uAir

[DatDarkOne]

23 minutes ago, uAir said:

Here, I quoted a relevant part of my post for you since you like reading excerpts only.

It was your statement about being able to tell good players from bad ones by seeing if they had CP equipped.  That's why I quoted that part.  The rest of you post (although good) was pretty much rendered void because of that statement.

You pretty much said that anyone not running CP was/is a bad player.  That what I called out.

Edited June 26, 2017 by DatDarkOne
clarification

[uAir]

26 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

It was your statement about being able to tell good players from bad ones by seeing if they had CP equipped.  That's why I quoted that part.  The rest of you post (although good) was pretty much rendered void because of that statement.

You pretty much said that anyone not running CP was/is a bad player.  That what I called out.

If you're talking specifically about that. Yes.

If we are not doing a Spy mission and you do not have CP on I automatically assume you are a less than stellar player with an unoptimal loadout and you don't understand how much armor impacts the game at higher levels, probably because you've never played anything above Sorties.

[rudman88]

actuallly mesa you can do a balance built.

as long you dont have arcane energize, dont go prime flow / flow but go for 2 efficiency.

 

the range is just to make your peacemaker easier. if you dont need it, you can put mroe duration

 

note : peacemaker energy consumption is affected by duration and efficiency

 

if you go for efficiency, you dont need to go so high duration. you can recast it easily.

 

i still put CP for mesa. why ?

-> at high level, the armor will reduce mesa peace maker.

-> And yes i dont bring mesa to non endless mission ( this is a turret not a stealth frame )

 

 

 

 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, uAir said:

If you're talking specifically about that. Yes.

If we are not doing a Spy mission and you do not have CP on I automatically assume you are a less than stellar player with an unoptimal loadout and you don't understand how much armor impacts the game at higher levels, probably because you've never played anything above Sorties.

LOL, then the same could be said for those with CP on non grineer endless missions.  Not everyone plays only grineer endless missions.  It's just not good practice to make assumptions.  Sometimes you have to think outside of the box.  Otherwise you never find new things that work and newer meta.  

I myself found other ways around armor that happens to work well for all the other factions also.  But then again, Mesa just wouldn't be my frame of choice for any endless type mission.  Nothing against Mesa, but I'm more familiar with my main frame for those things.

[uAir]

Some Corpus and Infested also have armor. Not to the extent that Grineer units do but enough to make a noticeable difference and enough to make it worthwhile to take x4 CP in Corpus/Infested endurance runs. Because again, the benefit they give outstrips the benefit of whatever other aura you would want to use instead.

[(PSN)Karelxss]

On 6/23/2017 at 1:54 PM, Xzorn said:

There's no doubt that more power is more damage but a 271% Power Mesa does 44% More Damage than a 200% Power Mesa including both Peace Maker multipliers and Shooting Gallery additive bonus after Hornet Strike.  While CP alone will increase her damage against armored enemies by 43.86% and armor is by far her weakness when it comes to dishing out damage with that base 10% status. A 90% + 60/60 gun build will also dish out 47% more Corrosive procs than a 60/60x2 Build due to the higher Corrosive proc weight. Together they perform considerably better than having 271% Power Strength.

But either way I find it hard to believe she can stay alive long enough for any difference to matter without a group protecting her.

No Health mods being 12,000 eHP against Vitality + P.Vigor being 31,800 eHP. I have doubts Mesa without health mods can even Solo an hour reliably in Tier 4 missions like MOT or any Axi Fissures let alone 2 hours in a normal mission where there's a longer period of time to catch bleed procs or make a mistake and she very much can survive those with Health mods.

If you're in a group going lvl 500+ then sure, health mods won't make a difference and neither will her Shatter Shield at that point. I looked through my footage and sadly did not find the part where a lvl 270 Eviscerator did not kill me thanks to HP + Rapid Resilience appose to a lvl 170 killing me but since Rapid Resilience brings Bleeds down to 2.5 ticks. It's not hard to imagine from my previous video that I would have survived and a Mesa with no health mods would die regardless of Rapid Resilience.

have you seen this? from the looks of it seems like its better to not run hornet strike

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Karelxss said:

have you seen this? from the looks of it seems like its better to not run hornet strike

I initially dismissed this out of hand...but then decided to do the math and the results depend on when Hornet Strike is factored into the equation as well as the power strength used in the build.

If Hornet Strike is factored into the damage as it is with every pistol (i.e. before any other damage is applied) then it is always better to use Hornet Strike.

This video seems to indicate that Hornet Strike is factored in as part of the damage ramp factor, which would mean it is additive with power strength.  If this is the case, and it's added after the elementals are applied, then everything is much trickier.

My calculations would indicate that at max power strength, dropping Hornet Strike for another elemental would actually give you more damage on Peacemaker once you're fully spooled up.  At 130% PS, however, it would still be better to use Hornet Strike.  The change-over is at 139.4493% PS, so if you use just Intensify, HS is better, but if you throw on any additional PS, then dropping HS is better.  This is all at maximum spool, however.

At minimum spool, HS outperforms non-HS builds.  This changes for 299% PS builds after the 12th shot in PM as the damage ramp up for non-HS builds is at a higher slope.

Disclaimer:  My math could be all wrong on this, so take it with a grain of salt.  Also, I don't actually know when HS is applied to the calculation, which is why I did it in many different ways.

[Xzorn]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Karelxss said:

have you seen this? from the looks of it seems like its better to not run hornet strike

 

They're not considering the attack speed bonus from Peacemaker which is also additive with mods.

72% Atk speed at full ramp results in +33% increase in DPS while Hornet Strike at full ramp results in 30% increase in DPS @ 200% Power.

I've taken a mod-less Peacemaker Vs Gunslinger Vs Hornet strike and captured at 60FPS put it into a video editor and timed it frame by frame.

Gunslinger is 33% faster at killing a lvl 145 Gunner than No mods at all. While both Hornet Strike and Gunslinger will kill the Gunner in Approx 35 seconds.

Anemic Agility is also 35 seconds though at 200% Power this should come closer to an 8% increase over Hornet.

At best you're gaining a 3-8% increase in DPS but ONLY at full ramp. At any other time you're getting the same or less damage.

The reason kill speed on a lvl 145 Armored enemy is better with atk speed is because you're getting more Corrosive Status Triggers per second. Not because Peacemaker has any meaningful increase in damage. Atk speed would be an improvement when dealing with lvl 150+ armored enemies and do very little for un-armored except reduce your reticle faster. It's also important to note that Peacemaker does not always ramp. It's buggy with targets acquisition and will not ramp at all until you re-cast it or change target distance, The ramp also resets the moment you do not fire for ~1 second.

[Arcainyx]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

-snip-

Response with changes to build

 

41 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

-snip-

Response with math for using/not using Hornet Strike

Thanks gents.  This is the one of the main reasons why I read these forums.  Nice to see this kind of information and make improvements to my game.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

15 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

They're not considering the attack speed bonus from Peacemaker which is also additive with mods.

72% Atk speed at full ramp results in +33% increase in DPS while Hornet Strike at full ramp results in 30% increase in DPS @ 200% Power.

I've taken a mod-less Peacemaker Vs Gunslinger Vs Hornet strike and captured at 60FPS put it into a video editor and timed it frame by frame.

Gunslinger is 33% faster at killing a lvl 145 Gunner than No mods at all. While both Hornet Strike and Gunslinger will kill the Gunner in Approx 35 seconds.

Anemic Agility is also 35 seconds though at 200% Power this should come closer to an 8% increase over Hornet.

At best you're gaining a 3-8% increase in DPS but ONLY at full ramp. At any other time you're getting the same or less damage.

The reason kill speed on a lvl 145 Armored enemy is better with atk speed is because you're getting more Corrosive Status Triggers per second. Not because Peacemaker has any meaningful increase in damage. Atk speed would be an improvement when dealing with lvl 150+ armored enemies and do very little for un-armored except reduce your reticle faster. It's also important to note that Peacemaker does not always ramp. It's buggy with targets acquisition and will not ramp at all until you re-cast it or change target distance, The ramp also resets the moment you do not fire for ~1 second.

Question.  My previous post in this thread looked at the question of when Hornet Strike is factored in.  The wiki seems to indicate that it's factored in not applied to the base damage of the weapon, but as a multiplier that's additive to the power strength of the frame.  Have you tested this and can you confirm one way or the other which is correct?  If it's added to the power strength, then my calculations show that you can output more damage without it in certain cases.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

 

[Anamid]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:09 AM, Xzorn said:

 

Yea. I get caught up at times with numbers but in my defense, it was the lvl 200 comment that triggered me.

It's not that you can't. I just wouldn't recommend it. Esp for a new player who's more likely to make a mistake.

Yeah but people fighting level 200s or going for more than a normal length endless mission are generally veteran players.
Id say if you get asked for a build to play mesa, link a min-max guide and for the meantime give him a quality effectiveness build for upto sortie 3.
It just makes more sense than a forum cockfight over builds.

[plasmox]

peacemaker doesn't benefit from rivens right? i got a really good vasto riven, but i don't think i can use it for mesa.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, Anamid said:

Yeah but people fighting level 200s or going for more than a normal length endless mission are generally veteran players.
Id say if you get asked for a build to play mesa, link a min-max guide and for the meantime give him a quality effectiveness build for upto sortie 3.
It just makes more sense than a forum cockfight over builds.

 

I don't think anyone is going to chastise OP for not having certain mods or gear. It's just a road map. Substitute and change at your leisure. Mesa isn't like some frames where building for higher levels means you have a minimum amount of survival for casual play. A build that can push lvl 400 will do just as well at lvl 100.

A decent amount of good came from that argument anyways.  Not really my place to guess where OP's progression is or how they intend to play. Some people jump into the game and start dumping plat, some might be returning players. They just asked for a powerful build and I posted one.

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, plasmox said:

peacemaker doesn't benefit from rivens right? i got a really good vasto riven, but i don't think i can use it for mesa.

 

Sadly Rivens do not work for Peacemaker or any ability-like weapons.

It's sad cuz we lose versatility in our weapon options for the sake of optimizing.

[DarthKadra]

My 2 cents. Mesa needs max efficiency, unless you're running Arcane Energize. Even with Zenurik turned on, and that's going away. A lot of duration, so that you don't have to recast her 2 and 3 all the time. The rest can be put into STR. Running Vitality is a matter of personal preference, both setups are viable at high levels. Corrosive Projection seems to be he best aura for now. 

My numbers:

DUR - 205 :: EFF - 175 :: RNG - 34 :: STR :: 200