Removing RNG from base gameplay mechanics

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

I like the ideas proposed as RNG in combat should be more for turn-based games as you can't actually aim in those... 

The only thing I don't agree with is the multi-shot with rifles and the crit-chance with melee as both again should not have extra gimmicks on whether I'm going to give an enemy a critical and then reset... Again, this should be more about where you aim. 

The real problem in this game is the hording of enemies (and the exponential growth on armor scaling). This only gives you room to use a lot of AoE abilities and weapons that really rely more on RNG than aim (Miragulor). The drop rates on things like health and energy orbs seem a little abysmal as well when you factor in how much energy/ammo used to kill the enemies, with the return rate of drops to keep damage output even. 

One way to address thing is to increase the drop rates, status/crit-chance percentages across the board, lower the number of enemies, and make them a little hardier. If this were the case, status might be more useful as well. Giving you the opportunity to inflict status and then being able to line up amazing crit-shots to reward aim. 

The other problems that are in this game with damage can be summed up with one phrase: "fighting cheese with more cheese." 

An example would be: 

"Is that level 400 Bombard giving you trouble with his insta-death rockets and infinite armor?" "No worries, Tenno!" Just get out your Simirage equipped with Telos Boltace and spam to your heart's content!" "No need to worry about  skill, critical shots, or low DPS ever again!" 

I could go on, but I think you get my point. 

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

On multishot my opinion is it shouldn't increase status and should simply do what it says it actually does... 

If the mod says 90% multishot then it should put another round out with 90% of the damage as the original round fired, but with the same status and crit-chance. 

I understand how multishot works and the damage output (Total Pellets = Weapon Pellet Count × (1 + Multishot Modifier)), but it seems very inconsistent. (So, extra rounds + % to fire another round = extra damage. What this means is that it is also RNG as to how much damage is generated.) 

So, as stated above, I wish that the extra rounds would occur with the same damage as original rounds, but "round-up" to fire an extra round instead of RNG mystery bullets... 

In the end though it is better to have an extra bullet chance than to simply fire the same number of rounds every time, but rounding up would simply give you a solid base and decrease RNG... 

(It is sure going to create some loopholes, like a Tonkor that fires 3 grenades every time instead of a multishot of 2 + 20% extra shot chance...) 

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by (XB1)ZenithLord 42
Parentheses

[JayJayTheScrub]

5 hours ago, BeeOverlord said:

Proposed: Counter Stacking. Every hit generates counters for your weapon equal to your status chance/crit chance. Once you reach 100, your next shot is a guaranteed proc/crit and resets the counter.

I can see a problem with this making attack speed and fire rate dominate stats after the change since they'll be able to stack these counters much faster, then to balance that it will require a fair amount of numbers tweaking for most weapons. Take the Soma Prime right now for example, at its current state, it fires 15 rounds/sec with 30% crit chance (at base). With this proposal it means that it will crit every 5th shot making it crit 3 times a second. Compare that to say the Dex Sybaris (4.17 rounds/sec with 35% crit) which under this system will crit every 4th shot making it crit about once every second. Then add the crit dmg multipliers and... you can see where I'm going with this. Just needs a bit of revision in my opinion if you do want to go for minimal work on DEs part. (edit: probably arent the best weapons to compare but you should still see my point with them)

Edited March 23, 2017 by --RV--JayJay

[PerishedFraud]

28 minutes ago, --RV--JayJay said:

I can see a problem with this making attack speed and fire rate dominate stats after the change since they'll be able to stack these counters much faster, then to balance that it will require a fair amount of numbers tweaking for most weapons. Take the Soma Prime right now for example, at its current state, it fires 15 rounds/sec with 30% crit chance (at base). With this proposal it means that it will crit every 5th shot making it crit 3 times a second. Compare that to say the Dex Sybaris (4.17 rounds/sec with 35% crit) which under this system will crit every 4th shot making it crit about once every second. Then add the crit dmg multipliers and... you can see where I'm going with this. Just needs a bit of revision in my opinion if you do want to go for minimal work on DEs part. (edit: probably arent the best weapons to compare but you should still see my point with them)

Isn't this already a thing though? People are slapping fury+berserker on their melees or making high rate somas/sybaris just for this purpose.

I mean, on paper a fixed crit chance is the same as a random one as long as the actual chance is the same, the random one will just randomly spike to higher or lower values. 

Right?

If I'm missing something, please tell me, jojo.

[Skaleek]

I really like these ideas.

[Kanaima]

I just wish guns also had a headshot/weakspot multiplier like they do in conclave. It kinda sucks that crit weapons take up that role. High headshot multipliers on previously lackluster guns could really give some of them a decent niche.

Edit : "With pinpoint accuracy, the Grinlok lever-action repeating rifle can easily find the soft spot on any target."

Edited March 23, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima

[PerishedFraud]

1 hour ago, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

I just wish guns also had a headshot/weakspot multiplier like they do in conclave. It kinda sucks that crit weapons take up that role. High headshot multipliers on previously lackluster guns could really give some of them a decent niche.

Edit : "With pinpoint accuracy, the Grinlok lever-action repeating rifle can easily find the soft spot on any target."

It's a bit amusing because this could work with what I proposed anyway (better than random crits at least, but worse than a legit new crit system).

[Fugana]

This will end up on one of these 'warframe forum generator'  videos.

[PerishedFraud]

8 hours ago, Fugana said:

This will end up on one of these 'warframe forum generator'  videos.

I think you mean simulator and I think you're wrong.

[rudman88]

why not you just suggest to make new mods with those things instead.

Changing a game mechanic will be troublesome and alot ppl may or may not agree with you.

 

Make it simple i wwant these new mods with this things. but definately the proc thing is completely stupid

[JayJayTheScrub]

Guess that was a bad comparison, so, let's compare those rifles to the dread (or any charge weapon really). Even at 100% critical chance they'd need to hit something first to activate and instantly stack the counter right? If this is the case then these slow weapons are put even further below rifles since they can no longer just crit after crit after crit.

Another thing to consider is how the current multishot would affect it (assuming DE likes the counter idea but not the multishot one) if each "hit" means each projectile (or I guess tick for continuous weapons) then shotguns can stack that counter to full with just a shot or two. How would that activated crit then be applied to the shotgun, would it be just 1 of the pellets or would it be all of them.

Speaking of shotguns, how would your multishot proposal affect them since their pellets are essentially innate multishot.

Btw we agreed on JJ >_>

[PerishedFraud]

3 hours ago, --RV--JayJay said:

Guess that was a bad comparison, so, let's compare those rifles to the dread (or any charge weapon really). Even at 100% critical chance they'd need to hit something first to activate and instantly stack the counter right? If this is the case then these slow weapons are put even further below rifles since they can no longer just crit after crit after crit.

But uh...they already can't crit consistently. How is randomly not critting any better than knowing when it will and when it won't crit?
 

Also just because shotguns have multiple bullets doesn't mean anything should work differently. What I suggested in general applies fine to them too lol.

[JayJayTheScrub]

Not all of them can, even with the right builds, correct, but the ones that can, like dread, are at least being used. Yes only a few weapons would be affected negatively by that but it's still there.

And the reason I see shotguns not working as intended with this change is first because of how "hit" would be defined. Again, if it's per projectile shotguns will quickly be able to stack counters in just a shot or 2 even with low stats. Also with how the counter would be applied, a Tigris shot where every pellet crits seems a bit op to me, while, the opposite, just one of the pellets criting seems very underwhelming after having to stack a counter.

[Kanaima]

On 3/23/2017 at 6:29 AM, KirukaChan said:

I like the idea of this thread. Taking RNG out of combat would make me very happy. Crits in particular.

As far as crits go, though, I'm more of a fan of making crit damage mods add to damage dealt to weak spots, while crit chance mods increase the size of a weak spot (you'd still have to actually hit the enemy for it to count, but more of their model would allow for headshots etc.).

I like this idea, but instead of crit chance increasing weakspot size, I feel like it should remain similar to how it is now, except instead of being a crit, it basically registers a headshot regardless of where you actually hit. It'd make crit chance optional if you're confident in your aim (except on targets that don't have actual weakspots, where it'd be better than no crit chance.)

Basically crit multiplier becomes weakspot multiplier, and crit chance becomes chance to inflict said weakspot multiplier regardless of location hit.

Edit: This should also be a bit of a buff to sniper rifles and other marksman weapons like the Grinlok, since you won't be headshotting and not getting your crit multiplier occasionally like you do now.

Edited March 26, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima