What Fun

[KingOfHearts]

Hello everyone. I would like to talk about the challenge aspect of the game, which is well none existant in the game right now. This probobly concerns older players much more then new ones, since we already have it all and done it all. When new content is comeing out it is most of the time reduced to an easy walk in the park by warframes ability's or a very suiteble gun for the task, sometimes a combination of both. A very good example of this is the Mirage and Synoid Simulor combination, even after the nerf its a monster on low enaugh level content, a runing, jumping 20m meatgrinder that doesnt need any thought or a degree of engagemnt in the game, you just press W and continue pressing LMB untill you are at an extraction point. Now there are many more of very strong frames, weapons and combos of both that in general do the same and it is perfectly fine it really is, if you dont want to spend 20 minutes on an extermination mission with a Lato why would you have to? But im sure there are many players who want the game to challenge them, make them think how to overecome this or that, how to make a squad teamplay viable because outside of endless missions everyone's just raceing to the exit and im not talking about crowd control god this thing makes the game even more boreing then it can be. I am really tired and bored out of my mind trying to think what bad or useless gun to use next to not one shot enemy's or which less suiteble frame for the task at hand to use so it would be fun. I want the game itself to challenge, well us. I want cc resistant monsters, bosses that dont die to a 1 shot from tigris but would need a coordinated play from a squad just an example of beeing vulnerable to 1 elemental damage or damage type at a time changeing it with less hp it has while stil beeing vulnerable to normal atacks with a ton of damage reduction to anything but that element or damage type, that would make the fight even if just abit more but engageing you would have to pay attention to the game even if just for 5 seconds longer. None of that invulnerable to damage (crap) its just bad. Now im not a game developer nor am i by any means an expert on warframe. So a better  AI for monsters is probobly to much to ask so that monsters would stay inside frost eximuses protective barrier or under nulifier shields, now im not saying these changes are in any way good but they are something... Please DE we need something to engage us to make us think! I guess damage/hp/armor scaleing of enemy's is pointless to talk about since its been talked about and i still beeing a concer for everyone and everything and nothing is beeing done about it.

From replays it seems like it would be a huge well lets say problem for any real changes to gameplay it self, so why not add a 4th game mode, a nightmare cooperative mode if you want to call it that where the game would be hard and practicly unwinable solo or without a coordinated squad, with its own rewards or points or bonuses or all of them. That would not hurt general game population and would add challengeing gameplay aspect to older players where you simply could not cheese the game. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Sziklamester]

The answer and the challange is there. The game can be challenging if the spawns are really bad or you just unlucky in your missions.

My other challenge factor is what I suggest to everyone if want more challenge is try to go through to the solar system with a frame "without" mods and with skana lato and braton / mk1 braton without mods applied. Then the challenge is significantly raise because on harder levels and in the early levels aswell you won't kill enemies with one shot.

If you do this without mods and kill the bossess one by one I will pay you 100 platinum. The rule is do not use any mods and use the basic weaponry. 

[KingOfHearts]

15 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

The answer and the challange is there. The game can be challenging if the spawns are really bad or you just unlucky in your missions.

My other challenge factor is what I suggest to everyone if want more challenge is try to go through to the solar system with a frame "without" mods and with skana lato and braton / mk1 braton without mods applied. Then the challenge is significantly raise because on harder levels and in the early levels aswell you won't kill enemies with one shot.

If you do this without mods and kill the bossess one by one I will pay you 100 platinum. The rule is do not use any mods and use the basic weaponry. 

I am really tired and bored out of my mind trying to think what bad or useless gun to use next to not one shot enemy's or which less suiteble frame for the task at hand to use so it would be fun. I want the game itself to challenge, well us. Yes there is a fun aspect in challenging you'r self in one way or the other but it has no randomness no suprise factor to it, you know exactly what your doing and what you'r going for and for what reasen. And if you dont hey wiki time. As you probobly dont understand im talking about the GAME BEEING CHALLENGING, DE MAKEING IT CHALLENGEING FOR ME. Not me makeing it challengeing for me.

 

How many mission have anyone failed lately? Outside of it beeing someone elses foult? or some sortie spy where u couldnt get it right etc. some nische moments that happen 1 time per day where you need some really random things to happen, How many times you even died in a mission, and if you cant fail and you cant die what is the next challenge? Or even if you do die someone who has 8 forma loki/ash w/e frame can still finish the mission without even noteceing that you died

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Xaero]

A part of the problem is ehp/damage scaling system.

IMO it'd be better if all those damage, multishot, ehp mods gave a boost of, let's say, 20% at max. This would allow players to ignore current mandatory mods and use more utility-oriented ones without making their builds unviable.

Enemies' levelling system could be replaced with tiers, where different types of enemies pose different level of threat to players. With difficulty increasing trash mobs are continually replaced by higher-tier enemies until the whole map is swarming with eximi and mini-bosses, for example.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ksaero

[KingOfHearts]

9 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

A part of the problem is ehp/damage scaling system.

IMO it'd be better if all those damage, multishot, ehp mods gave a boost of, let's say, 20% at max. This would allow players to ignore current mandatory mods and use more utility-oriented ones without making their builds unviable.

Enemies' levelling system could be replaced with tiers, where different types of enemies pose different level of threat to players. With difficulty increasing trash mobs are continually replaced by higher-tier enemies until the whole map is swarming with eximi and mini-bosses, for example.

Why not make it a nightmare mode, as in nightmare mode that is like archwing/conclave/cooperative/nightmare mod where everything you said applies. With its own awesome rewards/points/bonuses w/e. Wont effect generaly gameplay but would provide fun alternative to endgame. 

[k05h]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

But im sure there are many players who want the game to challenge them

I would be less certain about this because it is PvE.

I know a lot of players that enjoy the mindless meatgrinder after dressing up with the latest Tennogen. Me and my friends like the lightweight way to blow off some steam after work. 

If we want a challenge we go with PvP (Dirty Bomb, Paladins) or classic strategy games. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by k05h

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, k05h said:

I would be less certain about this because it is PvE. I know a lot of players that enjoy the mindless meatgrinder after dressing up with the latest Tennogen. Me and my friends like the lightweight way to blow off some steam after work. 

If we want a challenge we go with PvP (Dirty Bomb, Paladins) or classic strategy games. 

It might be so, but "mindless meatgrinder" is promoted all the time and add in content all the time, while challenge is neglected for those who really want it.

[Kyryo]

33 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Enemies' levelling system could be replaced with tiers, where different types of enemies pose different level of threat to players. With difficulty increasing trash mobs are continually replaced by higher-tier enemies until the whole map is swarming with eximi and mini-bosses, for example.

and without those mandatory mod that would result in a suicide. the idea is awesome, but those mod needs to stay.

[Kyryo]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

while challenge is neglected for those who really want it.

And thats the good thing about this game. if you want a challenge, you can have it by removing some mods or doing infinite missions, but if   you like to be the god the warframes are supposed to be, then you are welcome too.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

Just change punch through to affect only enemies. No longer shoot through walls or cover, game instantly gets back its challenge. Or don't use meta load outs that min max status or crits. I have plenty of fun, aside from having had to start over, just getting good fire rate and reload on my weapons, with some multishot.

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

And thats the good thing about this game. if you want a challenge, you can have it by removing some mods or doing infinite missions, but if   you like to be the god the warframes are supposed to be, then you are welcome too.

Again with this, but why can you be god of warframe with no effort but have to "look for the challenge" to have it? Its not really fair is it? 

I dont want them implement the hardness for everyone i just want to for example on a sunday when im rested relaxed and ready for some warframe brutality to jump and have it hard on me. But i cant because half of that energy is spend on figureing out how to make that happen with all the godlike powers and weapons we have

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kyryo]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Its not really fair is it? 

Becouse this is a pve-based game. made in Canada. If you want a challenging pve, korea is over there.   

Why must i be play dark souls in space to make someone happy? 

Don't get me wrong, i love when the enemy is a threat (lv 250+) but i also like to simply destroy an entire civilization by pressing a simple combination of keys.

Challenge should be "locked" behind choices, like the actual Kuva missions. 

OR in a completely new planet/System , and i think this is going to happen soon with the sentients. As you should have seen,  DE is working a lot on the "early game" for now, but is also throwing in the basics for the future "Late game" (which does not mean End Game). You could consider 90% of the content we have right now as a Tutorial. 

Looking how the main story is progressing, i would assume that SOON^TM  we'll have some hard time with Lotus daddy. Corpus/Grineer/Infested as preparation for the major threat. 

If you look even lore-wise, it is normal for us to destroy those 3 factions with ease, as the Warframes were made to destroy the Sentients which are tremendously more powerful and advanced than the enemies we actually have. 

[Xaero]

16 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

and without those mandatory mod that would result in a suicide. the idea is awesome, but those mod needs to stay.

I'm not saying any mods should be removed, I'm saying the increase they give should be toned down so they are no longer mandatory. Ofc that means reworking enemy scaling system as well.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Kyryo said:

Becouse this is a pve-based game. made in Canada. If you want a challenging pve, korea is over there.   

Why must i be play dark souls in space to make someone happy? 

Don't get me wrong, i love when the enemy is a threat (lv 250+) but i also like to simply destroy an entire civilization by pressing a simple combination of keys.

Challenge should be "locked" behind choices, like the actual Kuva missions. 

OR in a completely new planet/System , and i think this is going to happen soon with the sentients. As you should have seen,  DE is working a lot on the "early game" for now, but is also throwing in the basics for the future "Late game" (which does not mean End Game). You could consider 90% of the content we have right now as a Tutorial. 

Looking how the main story is progressing, i would assume that SOON^TM  we'll have some hard time with Lotus daddy. Corpus/Grineer/Infested as preparation for the major threat. 

If you look even lore-wise, it is normal for us to destroy those 3 factions with ease, as the Warframes were made to destroy the Sentients which are tremendously more powerful and advanced than the enemies we actually have. 

Just like anyone els i get lazy and dont want to spend eny effort on mission sometimes. 
But when i actualy do when you want to have unforgiving cercomstances where any misstep would mean death, when you want to be sweating with impatience and enxity of what will happen next or what to do next when lotus isnt gideing you're every move. 
There is nothing. You can unmod you're gear for a minor challenge of wasted time shooting enemy's not 1 time but 10 or 100 times. 
You can spend 2h of you'r time in an endless to get bored. 

And for the last time i want to have an option for the game to be hard(NOT FOR EVERYONE) because i like warframe not some korean game. 

[_Vortus_]

6 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

And thats the good thing about this game. if you want a challenge, you can have it by removing some mods or doing infinite missions, but if   you like to be the god the warframes are supposed to be, then you are welcome too.

He mentioned being tired of nerfing himself to make it interesting.    Also tired of the hour + it takes infinite missions to get remotely interesting.   Been there, done that, have the tshirt and pretty tired of wearing it.

29 minutes ago, k05h said:

I would be less certain about this because it is PvE.

I know a lot of players that enjoy the mindless meatgrinder after dressing up with the latest Tennogen. Me and my friends like the lightweight way to blow off some steam after work. 

If we want a challenge we go with PvP (Dirty Bomb, Paladins) or classic strategy games. 

He isn't alone.   There are methods for DE to allow those that want a challenge to get it without limiting anyone who prefers slaughtering hordes of enemies.   As of right now, there really isn't anything other than self nerfing to do so. 

Some options...  Normal - Medium - Hard tier on each node.  New nodes on planets with much higher levels.  Nightmare sorties.   These are just a few, am sure there are others.   

 

We are getting better and better gear, call it power creep or whatever.   Old weapons slowly getting buffed.   Rivens buffing weapons to levels way beyond anything needed in the game unless going for records for time played.    They have a steady stream of new content.   Weapons, gear, frames, etc   Even the worst of which can clear the star chart and almost all of them, maybe even all, can go to sortie level and beyond.   But sadly, there is no content being made for "beyond".   There has not been for a long time.   Even if we have the gear for it.

 

[Volinus7]

Warframe in a nutshell.....

More challenges? Fair difficulty? You want to put some needles in bubble wrap?

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe in a nutshell.....

More challenges? Fair difficulty? You want to put some needles in bubble wrap?

Sometimes, i want it to have an option of beeing challenging, cause if you have bubble wrap all the time you'd get bored

[_Vortus_]

6 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe in a nutshell.....

More challenges? Fair difficulty? You want to put some needles in bubble wrap?

Right now its not even the soothing snap and pop of squishing them by hand.   That's actually more challenging.  Currently, its running over it with a steam roller and its over.   Not very satisfying.

Ok, a bit satisfying once in a while.   But not all the time.

Edited April 3, 2017 by _Vortus_
added a bit satisfying once in a while, but not all the time

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Sometimes, i want it to have an option of beeing challenging, cause if you have bubble wrap all the time you'd get bored

There's a reason why buffet style difficulty is not successful in this game and many people keep asking for challenges.

The lack of challenge doesn't come from parameters but it comes from core mechanics.

[blazinvire]

'Challenge' in this game is just cheese fighting cheese until they rework the core infrastructure, make it more stable and modular so they can ease the difficulty up and down in steady increments and throw curveballs whenever they like.

But who knows when the core mechanics are gonna get touched, one thing I've learned about people nowadays is they're mortally afraid of any kind risk.

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

There's a reason why buffet style difficulty is not successful in this game and many people keep asking for challenges.

The lack of challenge doesn't come from parameters but it comes from core mechanics.

I dont think its hard to implement conclave style mod gearing for a cooperative mode(which would make it 4th game mode) obviously not the same conclave modes but nerf the existing cooperative mods for that mode only etc. core machnic's wouldnt be touched and lvl 30 enemy's would pose a challenge now its just a thought and obviously needs more but it is better the nothing

The big problem with changeing something old is that everyone got used to it and alot of people cant handle relearing, but intraduceing something new without bothering most of games population wouldnt hurt anyone but only add to gameplay

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Sziklamester]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I am really tired and bored out of my mind trying to think what bad or useless gun to use next to not one shot enemy's or which less suiteble frame for the task at hand to use so it would be fun. I want the game itself to challenge, well us. Yes there is a fun aspect in challenging you'r self in one way or the other but it has no randomness no suprise factor to it, you know exactly what your doing and what you'r going for and for what reasen. And if you dont hey wiki time. As you probobly dont understand im talking about the GAME BEEING CHALLENGING, DE MAKEING IT CHALLENGEING FOR ME. Not me makeing it challengeing for me.

 

How many mission have anyone failed lately? Outside of it beeing someone elses foult? or some sortie spy where u couldnt get it right etc. some nische moments that happen 1 time per day where you need some really random things to happen, How many times you even died in a mission, and if you cant fail and you cant die what is the next challenge? Or even if you do die someone who has 8 forma loki/ash w/e frame can still finish the mission without even noteceing that you died

I died hmm dunno last time 4 months ago accidentaly by a one shot given from stalker otherwise not often die and really not lose so much. I am very careful with my stats and trying to achieve a perfect stat. I am agreeing with you the game itself need to be challanging enough maybe they could separate the lobby someway like in killing floor 2 where there are normal, hard and extreme hard levels and whom wanted to be challanged could choose the hardest instances and levels instead the current level system of we have.

The AI improvements are requested many times by now and they doesn't working on instead making bandaid articifal difficulty stuffs like nullies, hard bosses and weakspots. Personally I would like a better AI which can use tactics against us and not idiot mobs which running in circles or run away from you without any idea what to do. They are partly intelligent to use the cover system but often they are just challenging us with bulletsponge levels.

It's depend on DE what kind of game want to make and it seems they prefer the casuals more because they make the money and the less veteran whom still playing. I want a challange but not mindless levels I want skill play but which not depends on weapons and mods.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Sziklamester

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

good luck with this discussion, OP... you'll need it. prepare for "gimp yourself", "pressing 4 is fun", "choosing loadout takes skill", "play solo" and "change game" ad nauseam.

i'm with you 100% btw.

if they don't wanna risk alienating a large part of the playerbase by an extensive rebalancing of numerous core mechanics, broken energy economy / skill costs etc. at least having an option in form of proper "nightmare sorties" or however you wanna call it would be nice... but that'd take alot of effort and thought put into it and i'm not sure if it'd be worth it from the devs' point of view unfortunately...

i mean sometimes they do show they care about actual gameplay by reworking afk skills like shield polarize, bladestorm or weapons like recently... but then just around the corner waits stuff like amesha, resonant quake and most recently insane buffs from bard frame and scaling limbo nuke as if they learned absouletely nothing from the past. i don't know if it's a reasoning i don't understand or just a lack thereof, but they seem quite schizo about game balance to me.

41 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe in a nutshell.....

that's... actually pretty dang accurate XP.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[skinotik]

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

A part of the problem is ehp/damage scaling system.

I agree.  It's boring to always mods corrosive.  Armor stripping > everything else.

Also,  I think the game need a Nightmare Mode Overhaul.  Nightmare mode is kinda old and would benefit a little vamp up,  Like maybe :

1. More node per planet with special random bonus (affinity boost, ressource drop boost, etc ... like 5-10-20% increase).  
2. Higher level range (40-60 mission, harder stuff at 60-80, 80-100, sortie level stuff).  
3. Special boss spawn chance (aka why not reintroduce Acolyte ...*cough**cough*).  
4. Nightmare mode quest for high MR ? (or replay quest in hard mode with special reward (exilus adapter, potato, Sculpture, lens)
5. Add more nightmare mod (maybe spread per planet ?)

Nightmare mode could be part of the solution to give player with high gear a place to farm/play with their toys.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

10 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

The AI improvements are requested many times by now and they doesn't working on instead making bandaid articifal difficulty stuffs like nullies, hard bosses and weakspots. Personally I would like a better AI which can use tactics against us and not idiot mobs which running in circles or run away from you without any idea what to do. They are partly intelligent to use the cover system but often they are just challenging us with bulletsponge levels.

y'know, but an IQ of 300 doesn't help when you're hanging helplessly in the air for the whole match (bastille... and lots of similar skills actually)...

rathuum did show potential in that regard but yeah... in the end it's always cheese or be cheesed.