Hydroid Alterations - Post Revisit

[Koliii]

11 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

People not playing something does NOT indicate what kind of spot a frame is in.

no but in the case for hydroid i think it is. prove me wrong

not sure why you are giving examples of other frames. we are talking about hydroid and the process of giving him some good/fun changes

imagine him without the pilfering swarm augment... i wouldnt even know why someone would use him unless you are into his theme. he doesnt fill any niche and his cc is poor especially on his 4 which is random and makes it sometimes harder to shoot the enemies.

all of the proposed changes by navarchus make sense and can actually improve the popularity of the frame which is good! not sure why you were against it in your first post that was deleted

11 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

Being immortal and able to 1 hit everything in an aoe doesnt seem a bit unbalanced to you? I mean, it is still a game at the end of the day. We shouldnt just want a "free win" button. 

 

i dont think any of the reworks had something like that so i dont know what you are scared of. limbobomb wasnt intentional and got fixed pretty fast by de and most ppl i talked with called it broken anyway and disliked playing with one unless it was a fixed farm group.

have some trust in the community

 

anyway im hoping hydroid gets some love instead of the neglection he's in right now

 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Koliii

[Iccotak]

3 minutes ago, Koliii said:

no but but in the case for hydroid i think it is. prove me wrong

not sure why you are giving examples of other frames. we are talking about hydroid and the process of giving him some good/fun changes

imagine him without the pilfering swarm augment... i wouldnt even know why someone would use him unless you are into his theme. he doesnt fill any niche and his cc is poor especially on his 4 which is random and makes it sometimes harder to shoot the enemies.

all of the proposed changes by navarchus make sense and can actually improve the popularity of the frame which is good! not sure why you were against it in your first post that was deleted

.

i dont think any of the reworks had something like that so i dont know what you are scared of. limbobomb wasnt intentional and got fixed pretty fast by de and most ppl i talked with called it broken anyway and disliked playing with one unless it was a fixed farm group.

have some trust in the community

 

anyway im hoping hydroid gets some love instead of the neglection he's in right now

 

 

I'll be honest, I don't have him because I don't want to do the Vay Hek mission.

[Achernaerii]

Awesome post filled with nice suggestions.

I used to play Hydroid quite often when he was released, but I got quickly tired of seeing the gelatinous water on every ability and the fact that it was quite easy to be
one-shotted due to lack of durability. I wanted to make him a go-to caster frame, but it didn’t really work. Scaling wasn’t bad, but having no control over ‘Tentacle Swarm (4)’, the only ranged ability that I was left was the “Tempest Barrage (1)” which, had not so great DMG, and was more of CC ability.

A little bit later I tried a full melee Hydroid build, and it worked fine. Expanded ‘Stamina’ pool helped with blocking, running and slashing my way to victory.
With ‘Stamina’ getting lost in the fog of the past, Hydroid started sitting on my ship’ shelf with hardly any purpose. I wasn't a caster frame I wanted to play, and no longer a warrior.

 

I was going back to him every few updates, to find any kind of use for his skillset. The last quality-of-life-improvement’s-that-arrived-way-to-late were a nice start, but the problem of Hydroid being “outclassed” by other frames still exists.

I like the concept and feel surrounding Hydroid, but I think there’s something missing in the play-style (and in the looks department: "Water, water, what hast thou donst...").

Tempest Barrage (1):
 

Spoiler

  I really like the new mobile ‘Tempest Barrage (1)’ casting and the augment mod for it is nice addition to the CC it offers. This simple change allowed me to use this ability, without having to stand still and getting killed. I found myself using it all the time. It was a good ability to begin with, and now with it proccing corrosion on vulnerable enemies, it became my favorite Hydroid skill.

 

On 5/10/2017 at 10:02 PM, Navarchus said:

Tempest Barrage (1) - Waste less energy: If no enemies are damaged with this ability, 100% of the energy cost is returned.

 

On 5/10/2017 at 10:02 PM, Navarchus said:

Tempest Barrage (1) - Anticlimactic duration: Increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.

I love the idea of making this skill last longer, and giving it the property of not wasting energy would make it a great "CC-wall" that you could use to split and lock down groups of incoming enemies. Other suggestions are also good, but if I had to pick, then these improvements would be most "gameplay-changing" for me.

Tidal Surge (2):

Spoiler

The only ability that I never use. Having no control on the wave once cast, and it scaling so weirdly with mods made me forgot about having the key "2" on my keyboard when I play as Hydroid. It either moves me 1 m or launches me into spaaaaaace (ofc. the second one is way more desirable). I think that most of the suggested changes would be nice to have, as this ability as it is now, is not only kind of weak, but it's hard to control and use right.
I like the animation, but hate the "water" texture sooo much... Looking at a charging slime wave is not a pleasant thing.

Dem Slippery Puddle (3):

Spoiler

As it is now, it's quite a nice CC and invulnerability combined in one ability that's called 'Undertow (3)' - the one that gives you time to rethink your life or make yourself some coffee. Wish I could just cast it on the ground and stay free to cast, move and fight. Invincibility is useful, but forcing you to just sit in a fixed location is not fun.
I use this ability often, as with the 'Curative Undertow' augment it's nice "Oh-sh*t button" that let's you heal yourself, CC all the enemies in range and allows you to re position yourself in the middle of fight. 
 

On 5/10/2017 at 10:02 PM, Navarchus said:

Maelstrom: Undertow Augment (3): No longer submerges Hydroid and his companion, 25/50/75% increased range, enemies nearby slowly get sunk, swirling into the middle where they get fully submerged.

So much this ^. With that augment it would be perfect for me. I don't really need to be invincible, I prefer to just not be one-shotted but still having to be careful about my surroundings. The idea of shooting tentacles from the puddle is quite interesting, and would make this skill something more than a "waiting simulator".

Tentacle Grape (4):

Spoiler

 A nice ability, with a good CC potential, with good DMG. What could go wrong with that? In my opinion, it's the lack of control over the tentacles and them spawning in weird (often useless) patterns makes this ability undependable. Sometimes it targets few enemies, and then it's great, but for me - it often spawns under just one or two enemies, and I have to recast it, to hit other targets. I prefer to use this skill with max duration, and just place it in the corridor. It works the best for me, as it actually fills
a whole space, slows enemies down, and deals nice amount of damage. Overall my favorite suggestion for 'Tentacle Fail (4) is:

On 5/10/2017 at 10:02 PM, Navarchus said:

Tentacle Swarm (4) - Self-positioning: Tentacle Swarm relocates to where an enemy is if it doesn't damage anyone for 10% of its duration, if there are no enemies or objects to target the tentacles will just turn into tiny puddles until there are enemies in the area to attack which will help with performance.

I would also like it to just hold enemies in place, as was also suggested. That would make it less annoying, when player is equipped with a sniper rifle or any slow shooting sidearm. 

Passive:

Spoiler

  I would really like to see more 'evasion' in this game. Hydroid would make a good use of it. In conjunction with this:

On 5/10/2017 at 10:02 PM, Navarchus said:

Hydroid Passive: Element: Hydroid upon being incapacitated gets an undertow form beneath him which submerges enemies but doesn't deal damage, doesn't scale off of any power mods. When knocked down turns into a small puddle that can't submerge enemies but is invulnerable to damage until emerging. This passive should be combined with whichever passive it is that DE finds optimal, I really think it makes up for his invulnerability being gone.

It would be both unique, and useful to have such thing.

 

Small rant about Hydroid' water not being water:

Spoiler

And, TBH I really hate the texture on his abilities. When the Uranus Sea lab tile set was added, I was hoping for new water textures for Hydroid, but I was left with disappointment. I love elements, and in games, I often find myself playing mage-like classes to be able to admire all the effects. Ember has nice looking skills, Frost has nice looking skills, even Atlas has nice looking effects and textures (not perfect, but still, nice). Hyroid has all of his skills made out of weird ooze, gel, goo, whatever.
It's hard to change the color of this 'sticky stuff', Hydroid uses, which makes things even worse. I prefer slender frames, but Hydroid' model is not that terrible.
I wouldn't mind it getting a PBR and some metallic parts here and there... 

Overall, I wish this frame got some love. If not a Oberon-sized-revisit, then at least PBR and ability texture update. I hope some of the suggestions that were posted in this thread will catch DE eye, and one day we will all have the new-old frame to play and have fun doing so.

Thank you Navarchus for making this list, and thanks to everyone participating in this discussion. Have a good one.


~thANTS

 

[Buddhakingpen]

2 hours ago, Koliii said:

no but in the case for hydroid i think it is. prove me wrong

not sure why you are giving examples of other frames. we are talking about hydroid and the process of giving him some good/fun changes

imagine him without the pilfering swarm augment... i wouldnt even know why someone would use him unless you are into his theme. he doesnt fill any niche and his cc is poor especially on his 4 which is random and makes it sometimes harder to shoot the enemies.

all of the proposed changes by navarchus make sense and can actually improve the popularity of the frame which is good! not sure why you were against it in your first post that was deleted

 

i dont think any of the reworks had something like that so i dont know what you are scared of. limbobomb wasnt intentional and got fixed pretty fast by de and most ppl i talked with called it broken anyway and disliked playing with one unless it was a fixed farm group.

have some trust in the community

 

anyway im hoping hydroid gets some love instead of the neglection he's in right now

 

 

I cant "prove you wrong" on something as subjective as whats fun.  And seeing as every frame at this point can do sortie level content, and every frame can do at least an hour on the hardest survival map on the game, I'm not sure what i'd be trying to prove. His ability to do a 6 hour solo run or something? 

I dont even use his pilfering swarm augment. I use a range build and his corroding barrage augment, because i mostly do endurance runs on mot. Spamming 1 where every salvo does a corrosive proc is a godsend on non cp4 endless missions. Its cool if you dont like it, but i do, and thats a niche I enjoy. The only other aoe duration based cc'ing armor stripping frame that exists is vauban, and you need both his shred and concuss grenades, used in conjunction with his bastille to do what hydroid does simply by spamming his 1. Even still, those 3 things are deployables, whereas tempest barrage has infinite casting range.  So yes, there is most definitely a niche for hydroid outside of a pilfering swarm guy.

My issue with the changes (honestly only some of them) is that they dont fix the things that i'm seeing people say are hydroids problems. They're just giving him perks on the chance that the hydroid player is playing poorly. Maybe its my age showing, but i'm used to games punishing you if you use a move improperly, and i feel thats how it should be. But getting energy back for whiffing skills? Having a move that makes you invincible and cc's enemies, but just in case you positioned poorly, having the option to pull enemies in and reposition? I guess i'm just used to games punishing you if you dont play well, not giving perks just in case you arent. 

Its not that i hate these changes themselves. Just what they represent for our playerbase. 

[Hammahness808]

I like your suggestions, they aren't direct number buffs to fix his problems and they aren't too over powered or underwhelming. What everyone and their mother currently agrees on, is that his abilities/kit are outdated, that his CC is inconsistent (mostly Swarm), Tidal Surge costs too much and needs an upgrade, and Undertow while useful - is ultimately boring. These and what he lacks to take him further into the game (stronger CC, tanking ability, or scaling damage) have been all addressed in these suggestions.

[Navarc]

6 hours ago, TGKazein said:

I like your suggestions, they aren't direct number buffs to fix his problems and they aren't too over powered or underwhelming. What everyone and their mother currently agrees on, is that his abilities/kit are outdated, that his CC is inconsistent (mostly Swarm), Tidal Surge costs too much and needs an upgrade, and Undertow while useful - is ultimately boring. These and what he lacks to take him further into the game (stronger CC, tanking ability, or scaling damage) have been all addressed in these suggestions.

Thank you, I'm really glad you feel that this isn't too over the top or would make his abilities too cluttered, just add what they already should contain to make them more reliable and enjoyable throughout the game.

 

16 hours ago, Khorroden said:

Awesome post filled with nice suggestions.

I used to play Hydroid quite often when he was released, but I got quickly tired of seeing the gelatinous water on every ability and the fact that it was quite easy to be
one-shotted due to lack of durability. I wanted to make him a go-to caster frame, but it didn’t really work. Scaling wasn’t bad, but having no control over ‘Tentacle Swarm (4)’, the only ranged ability that I was left was the “Tempest Barrage (1)” which, had not so great DMG, and was more of CC ability.

A little bit later I tried a full melee Hydroid build, and it worked fine. Expanded ‘Stamina’ pool helped with blocking, running and slashing my way to victory.
With ‘Stamina’ getting lost in the fog of the past, Hydroid started sitting on my ship’ shelf with hardly any purpose. I wasn't a caster frame I wanted to play, and no longer a warrior.

 

I was going back to him every few updates, to find any kind of use for his skillset. The last quality-of-life-improvement’s-that-arrived-way-to-late were a nice start, but the problem of Hydroid being “outclassed” by other frames still exists.

I like the concept and feel surrounding Hydroid, but I think there’s something missing in the play-style (and in the looks department: "Water, water, what hast thou donst...").

Tempest Barrage (1):
 

  Reveal hidden contents

  I really like the new mobile ‘Tempest Barrage (1)’ casting and the augment mod for it is nice addition to the CC it offers. This simple change allowed me to use this ability, without having to stand still and getting killed. I found myself using it all the time. It was a good ability to begin with, and now with it proccing corrosion on vulnerable enemies, it became my favorite Hydroid skill.

 

 

I love the idea of making this skill last longer, and giving it the property of not wasting energy would make it a great "CC-wall" that you could use to split and lock down groups of incoming enemies. Other suggestions are also good, but if I had to pick, then these improvements would be most "gameplay-changing" for me.

Tidal Surge (2):

  Reveal hidden contents

The only ability that I never use. Having no control on the wave once cast, and it scaling so weirdly with mods made me forgot about having the key "2" on my keyboard when I play as Hydroid. It either moves me 1 m or launches me into spaaaaaace (ofc. the second one is way more desirable). I think that most of the suggested changes would be nice to have, as this ability as it is now, is not only kind of weak, but it's hard to control and use right.
I like the animation, but hate the "water" texture sooo much... Looking at a charging slime wave is not a pleasant thing.

Dem Slippery Puddle (3):

  Reveal hidden contents

As it is now, it's quite a nice CC and invulnerability combined in one ability that's called 'Undertow (3)' - the one that gives you time to rethink your life or make yourself some coffee. Wish I could just cast it on the ground and stay free to cast, move and fight. Invincibility is useful, but forcing you to just sit in a fixed location is not fun.
I use this ability often, as with the 'Curative Undertow' augment it's nice "Oh-sh*t button" that let's you heal yourself, CC all the enemies in range and allows you to re position yourself in the middle of fight. 
 

So much this ^. With that augment it would be perfect for me. I don't really need to be invincible, I prefer to just not be one-shotted but still having to be careful about my surroundings. The idea of shooting tentacles from the puddle is quite interesting, and would make this skill something more than a "waiting simulator".

Tentacle Grape (4):

  Reveal hidden contents

 A nice ability, with a good CC potential, with good DMG. What could go wrong with that? In my opinion, it's the lack of control over the tentacles and them spawning in weird (often useless) patterns makes this ability undependable. Sometimes it targets few enemies, and then it's great, but for me - it often spawns under just one or two enemies, and I have to recast it, to hit other targets. I prefer to use this skill with max duration, and just place it in the corridor. It works the best for me, as it actually fills
a whole space, slows enemies down, and deals nice amount of damage. Overall my favorite suggestion for 'Tentacle Fail (4) is:

I would also like it to just hold enemies in place, as was also suggested. That would make it less annoying, when player is equipped with a sniper rifle or any slow shooting sidearm. 

Passive:

  Reveal hidden contents

  I would really like to see more 'evasion' in this game. Hydroid would make a good use of it. In conjunction with this:

It would be both unique, and useful to have such thing.

 

Small rant about Hydroid' water not being water:

  Reveal hidden contents

And, TBH I really hate the texture on his abilities. When the Uranus Sea lab tile set was added, I was hoping for new water textures for Hydroid, but I was left with disappointment. I love elements, and in games, I often find myself playing mage-like classes to be able to admire all the effects. Ember has nice looking skills, Frost has nice looking skills, even Atlas has nice looking effects and textures (not perfect, but still, nice). Hyroid has all of his skills made out of weird ooze, gel, goo, whatever.
It's hard to change the color of this 'sticky stuff', Hydroid uses, which makes things even worse. I prefer slender frames, but Hydroid' model is not that terrible.
I wouldn't mind it getting a PBR and some metallic parts here and there... 

Overall, I wish this frame got some love. If not a Oberon-sized-revisit, then at least PBR and ability texture update. I hope some of the suggestions that were posted in this thread will catch DE eye, and one day we will all have the new-old frame to play and have fun doing so.

Thank you Navarchus for making this list, and thanks to everyone participating in this discussion. Have a good one.


~thANTS

 

Hey! Thanks for this throughout post. I do think Hydroid same as Oberon will always be outclassed by other warframes in specific things with them being multiclassed but I know what you mean, they need to be able to be able to be seen as a good asset to a squad.
Hydroids old melee capabilities greatly made up for being an unreliable CC and not much good for other things. Since then he has got augments for utility & support but he's still fully the role of a caster which is really unfortunate as that's not how he was released or how he looks.

I'm really glad you've also noticed the capabilities possible with changes such as being able to re-cast for free if it deals no damage such as being ready with a broadside to any enemy and grant more control over his movement ability which more likely than not doesn't move you or ejects you from the tileset altogether.
Players who just sit as a puddle with undertow are a really bad representation of the playerbase & with giving the ability further CC for more energy cost, but also making it interactive so that you have something to do which is visible to allies I think is pretty important.
A hydroid being stationary as a puddle for 3 minutes in interception  you can't really tell if he's tabbed out, AFK or actually sitting there ready to emerge and kill energy draining eximus before they fall into the water and become invulnerable. In many cases it's not the last example.

But when it comes to his tentacles, people did and have requested for them to hold enemies stationary in place since the day he came out. While it would be good I feel it might be a bit too good if it was guaranteed that's why I suggested that prone enemies, as in enemies that are on the ground will be held in place like other warframe abilities would (nezhas spears, rhinos stomp, vaubans bastille, nidus tentacle ball) but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Keep in mind that all his abilities knock enemies down, so this gives his (4) synergy with any and all abilities you use which does prevent the "press 4 to win" gameplay we've had a lot of in the past.
I know it will still be the most important ability to most so that's a buff to it which doesn't just directly buff it but encourages players to try out the other abilities perhaps interesting them in the augments available for them if they prefer one especially much.

The passive I feel would grant him much survivability as well as the +30% evasion which I feel is a wasted stat because barely anything grants it in the game and the things that do aren't high enough numbers to actually be interesting enough to try as of right now.

On his visuals? I agree. Water is transparent. Hydroids water sure isn't. Personally I see it as clay but gelatin is pretty accurate too.

17 hours ago, KX297 said:

I shared this post in my clan's Discord server!

They really approved of some of your ideas and proposed additions!

Just thought I'd tell you that. ( :

Keep up the good work!

(Don't know why people are being negative about this. None of these proposed changes would fundamentally impact the way he is played, nor make him overpowered, nor alter who the frame 'is' character wise. They would just make him more interesting and fun).

Seriously? That's really cool, thank you for supporting the thread and I think it's really nice of you to share it with your friends & that they went through the thread and agree with it!

[Gravitus123]

Honestly his biggest problem is the accuracy of his abilities.His 1 and 4 have such terrible accuracy that even if they were endgame scaling abilties they would still be next to useless.Also his 3rd ability next to be changed theres almost no reason to use except for some afk interceptions but even then you need a full team of hydroids.

Fix the accuracy of his abilites to make them more consistant and change his 3 and perhaps his 4 too since its also pretty useless besides extra drops via its augment

[Somb3rBivalve]

This is probably one of the better hydroid reworks out there. Props to you OP.

Now, there are a few things I don't like here/things that I would like clarification on:

• for tidal surge, what I am getting is that enemies along the path are carried with hydroid as he goes forward. Now, when tidal surge ends or is cancelled, how do the enemies end up since you say that they are open to finishers? Are they deposited at hydroid's feet when tidal surge ends? Or are they flung forward (the way hydroid currently works)? This is pretty important considering whether an enemy is prone or not is vital to the way that this rework functions. I would rather it be the former
• This is really a nitpick, but for the 20% "screenshake" for enemy on his tempest barrage, really thinking about it, it doesn't make much sense. If allies WITHIN the field are gaining the evasion chance why should it be harder for enemies who aren't even getting hit by the shells (those who are outside the area) to hit those inside the area? Because that's what this is inferring to me. And if the impact from the shells is affecting their accuracy THAT far away, why does that evasion buff only apply to allies within that small area? Honestly, I think this should be changed to an accuracy debuff on enemies anywhere within tempest barrage's area. So in a way, the evasion chance still applies and even if your shots from tempest barrage don't hit, they will still adversely affect enemy accuracy.
• For undertow, with the "launching tentacles at enemies" thing, I think that part where the energy drain permanently increases for every non-prone enemy you pull in is a bit much. I would rather it simply be a flat amount for each enemy you pull in and still no cost at all for prone enemies. Otherwise, the energy drain would get out of control really fast even for just pulling in a few enemies.
• For tentacle swarm, reading his 3, it would seem that getting enemies into a prone position either for finishers or grabbing is a big part of his kit. How do the tentacles work with this? Assuming that roughly the same animations are used, the tentacles often slam people onto the floor. When the tentacles from tentacle swarm slam an enemy onto the floor, are they eligible to be pulled into undertow?
• Finally, I am a little concerned that, build-wise, power strength won't matter enough on him with this rework. Without exact numbers, it's hard to tell, but I'm assuming that his 1,2, and 4 still aren't going to do all that much damage, so building high power strength still won't be that rewarding with those abilities. As for his 3, if you want the damage to be percent-based like that, I would assume that that percent would be unaffected by power strength because that is how most similar %based damage abilities work. That said, taking into account a 3 that doesn't scale off power strength, I don't see power strength mattering enough here, which is a problem when it comes to trying to promote balanced builds.

Other thoughts:

• In terms of evasion chance you mention, as much as I agree that it makes sense compared to armor, I honestly don't see DE going for something like that. Think about it, you have so many warframes where durability is measured by health, armor, and shields, and then you have that one over there that has evasion instead, which is kind of awkward. Plus, as opposed to armor, you can't really mod for evasion, which slightly decreases build diversity.

[StabbyTentacles]

On 5/11/2017 at 7:00 AM, Koliii said:

it doesnt matter if he is viable or not....

most ppl dont even consider playing that frame which imo is a clear indicator that he is in a bad spot right now. he is just boring to play with.

changes to him are needed so better contribute to it

 

 

Ageed.

On 5/12/2017 at 8:16 PM, qiusef said:

what a great suggestion! Kudos to you and whomever helped you out! 

Hydroid is a good frame, but sadly his abilities beside his 4 kinda meh. I use him, mainly for farming pair him with sonar banshee = loots galore! 

i'm truly sorry if i can't make any suggestion with deep-analytic-thought, it's because i am just a casual player who just want to have fun. But from what i read, your suggestion is so great and well written :D Hope DE pick it up to alter Hydroid in the future.  

Hydroid aka Tentacle King, needs work; while his 4 works okey, it could be better; I've suggested that it be made more dark/corrupt, also that it scale to become more cc than damage as lvls increase.

I like your suggestions, and feel they should all be at the very least; looked at by the Devs.

[Navarc]

9 hours ago, Gravitus123 said:

Honestly his biggest problem is the accuracy of his abilities.His 1 and 4 have such terrible accuracy that even if they were endgame scaling abilties they would still be next to useless.Also his 3rd ability next to be changed theres almost no reason to use except for some afk interceptions but even then you need a full team of hydroids.

Fix the accuracy of his abilites to make them more consistant and change his 3 and perhaps his 4 too since its also pretty useless besides extra drops via its augment

I do address solutions to the RNG abilities and making his 3 interactive and (slightly) mobile at the cost of more energy drain, but so you can do something in the meantime instead of it being automatic and you just sitting there.

8 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

This is probably one of the better hydroid reworks out there. Props to you OP.

Now, there are a few things I don't like here/things that I would like clarification on:

• for tidal surge, what I am getting is that enemies along the path are carried with hydroid as he goes forward. Now, when tidal surge ends or is cancelled, how do the enemies end up since you say that they are open to finishers? Are they deposited at hydroid's feet when tidal surge ends? Or are they flung forward (the way hydroid currently works)? This is pretty important considering whether an enemy is prone or not is vital to the way that this rework functions. I would rather it be the former
• This is really a nitpick, but for the 20% "screenshake" for enemy on his tempest barrage, really thinking about it, it doesn't make much sense. If allies WITHIN the field are gaining the evasion chance why should it be harder for enemies who aren't even getting hit by the shells (those who are outside the area) to hit those inside the area? Because that's what this is inferring to me. And if the impact from the shells is affecting their accuracy THAT far away, why does that evasion buff only apply to allies within that small area? Honestly, I think this should be changed to an accuracy debuff on enemies anywhere within tempest barrage's area. So in a way, the evasion chance still applies and even if your shots from tempest barrage don't hit, they will still adversely affect enemy accuracy.
• For undertow, with the "launching tentacles at enemies" thing, I think that part where the energy drain permanently increases for every non-prone enemy you pull in is a bit much. I would rather it simply be a flat amount for each enemy you pull in and still no cost at all for prone enemies. Otherwise, the energy drain would get out of control really fast even for just pulling in a few enemies.
• For tentacle swarm, reading his 3, it would seem that getting enemies into a prone position either for finishers or grabbing is a big part of his kit. How do the tentacles work with this? Assuming that roughly the same animations are used, the tentacles often slam people onto the floor. When the tentacles from tentacle swarm slam an enemy onto the floor, are they eligible to be pulled into undertow?
• Finally, I am a little concerned that, build-wise, power strength won't matter enough on him with this rework. Without exact numbers, it's hard to tell, but I'm assuming that his 1,2, and 4 still aren't going to do all that much damage, so building high power strength still won't be that rewarding with those abilities. As for his 3, if you want the damage to be percent-based like that, I would assume that that percent would be unaffected by power strength because that is how most similar %based damage abilities work. That said, taking into account a 3 that doesn't scale off power strength, I don't see power strength mattering enough here, which is a problem when it comes to trying to promote balanced builds.

Other thoughts:

• In terms of evasion chance you mention, as much as I agree that it makes sense compared to armor, I honestly don't see DE going for something like that. Think about it, you have so many warframes where durability is measured by health, armor, and shields, and then you have that one over there that has evasion instead, which is kind of awkward. Plus, as opposed to armor, you can't really mod for evasion, which slightly decreases build diversity.

• "for tidal surge, what I am getting is that enemies along the path are carried with hydroid as he goes forward. Now, when tidal surge ends or is cancelled, how do the enemies end up since you say that they are open to finishers? Are they deposited at hydroid's feet when tidal surge ends? Or are they flung forward (the way hydroid currently works)? This is pretty important considering whether an enemy is prone or not is vital to the way that this rework functions. I would rather it be the former"

Tidal Surge deals damage 2 times. Once by the push, once by the ending where it deals SLASH damage to enemies & doesn't knock them over. It's hard to notice because there's no effect or anything real to signify it other than the enemies near the end of the ability suddenly bleeding very low damage - so I want that ending to open up enemies to finisher which would make it more powerful, give more melee opportunities & make it clear that the end of the ability did do something.

So what I would like to see is for when you hit 2, enemies struck by the wave get sunk into it similar to Undertow & they are dropped as prone infront of hydroid when his 2 ends - but any nearby enemies at the end are staggered (open for finisher) so that if your ability ends in a crowd of enemies because it gets stuck on something as it usually does, you're not instantly going to die but you have about a second to escape or attack.

• "This is really a nitpick, but for the 20% "screenshake" for enemy on his tempest barrage, really thinking about it, it doesn't make much sense. If allies WITHIN the field are gaining the evasion chance why should it be harder for enemies who aren't even getting hit by the shells (those who are outside the area) to hit those inside the area? Because that's what this is inferring to me. And if the impact from the shells is affecting their accuracy THAT far away, why does that evasion buff only apply to allies within that small area? Honestly, I think this should be changed to an accuracy debuff on enemies anywhere within tempest barrage's area. So in a way, the evasion chance still applies and even if your shots from tempest barrage don't hit, they will still adversely affect enemy accuracy."

No, I think you're entirely right. It doesn't really add up and it would feel right, it should reduce enemies accuracy within the AOE of the cast, not grant evasion to allies who get into the range of the AoE. I'll be changing that, thank you for the input!

• "For undertow, with the "launching tentacles at enemies" thing, I think that part where the energy drain permanently increases for every non-prone enemy you pull in is a bit much. I would rather it simply be a flat amount for each enemy you pull in and still no cost at all for prone enemies. Otherwise, the energy drain would get out of control really fast even for just pulling in a few enemies."

I'll have to re-read how I phrased it, I didn't mean it this way. Tentacles out drain energy while they are pulling someone, but prone enemies have tentacles automatically shot at them all at once costing no additional energy to pull them in to synergize with all of his abilities that knock enemies down so you can make sure you get some important crowds into the puddle. 

• "For tentacle swarm, reading his 3, it would seem that getting enemies into a prone position either for finishers or grabbing is a big part of his kit. How do the tentacles work with this? Assuming that roughly the same animations are used, the tentacles often slam people onto the floor. When the tentacles from tentacle swarm slam an enemy onto the floor, are they eligible to be pulled into undertow?"

Enemies already targeted by a tentacle from his 4 won't be targeted by the tentacles from his 3, since it would just mean tentacles would be getting stuck pulling the same thing until the duration of his 4 is over which can be around 40 seconds, it would be annoying for everyone. 
Currently their only interaction is that if you cast undertow in a cluster of tentacles the tentacles will dip enemies into the undertow but then quickly pull them out before any real damage is dealt so they don't work together well currently and I suppose with this change they wouldn't either unless you end Undertow, leaving enemies prone for the Tentacle Swarm to target & hold in place.

• "Finally, I am a little concerned that, build-wise, power strength won't matter enough on him with this rework. Without exact numbers, it's hard to tell, but I'm assuming that his 1,2, and 4 still aren't going to do all that much damage, so building high power strength still won't be that rewarding with those abilities. As for his 3, if you want the damage to be percent-based like that, I would assume that that percent would be unaffected by power strength because that is how most similar %based damage abilities work. That said, taking into account a 3 that doesn't scale off power strength, I don't see power strength mattering enough here, which is a problem when it comes to trying to promote balanced builds."

I think you're right, the most popular currently is duration & range ever since they nerfed Pilfering Swarms loot scaling off of Power Strength.
Despite him dealing finisher damage it's really too low to be worth doing a power strength build on your own, with a Banshee, Octavia, Equinox and so on people tend to combo Hydroid to be able to increase his damage since he's just not capable of having sustainable damage over level 80.
I can't think of scaling ways to improve on his damage at least not right now. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them your previous suggestion was definitely worth writing down.

• "In terms of evasion chance you mention, as much as I agree that it makes sense compared to armor, I honestly don't see DE going for something like that. Think about it, you have so many warframes where durability is measured by health, armor, and shields, and then you have that one over there that has evasion instead, which is kind of awkward. Plus, as opposed to armor, you can't really mod for evasion, which slightly decreases build diversity."

You're right there's just one or two mods to add additional evasion to yourself, but it does fit with his visually and with his ability kit where the aim isn't guaranteed.
I know realistically they would prefer to just slap on some armour but even going from 65 to 125 armour wouldn't really be enough to hold up in the late game and his 65 armour isn't really a noticeable problem until the late game where health & armour prevails.
I can see them doing it though with Nidus getting health regeneration as one of his stat, it is something they are capable of doing clearly.

For the future I hope DE adds evasion stats to wielding melee weapons with low damage reduction so  weapons with 35% damage reduction (daggers, rapiers etc) make up for it by granting a high evasion stat and weapons with 80% damage reduction (nikanas, greatswords etc) grant next to no evasion stat allowing diversity with this kind of thing and matching weapons with builds if you want to minmax. But that's a whole different thread isn't it? 

Thank you for reading through all this and considering how it would be used and the possibilities with them from a different perspective. I think this helps the thread out a lot.

 

Edit: Added this, let me know if you think it's too over the top or not enough.

• Tentacle Swarm (4) - Scaling: 2,5% Of the targets health is converted to damage for the next time a tentacle emerges on a new target, stacks continuously. Emerging damage increased, not capturing damage. The percentage scales with power strength.
  Example: 2,5% of 12 enemies at 100% and at 200% power strength that's 5% of 12 targets total health dealt in damage for all tentacles when re-emerging.
  So if you hit 12 leapers with 100 health, that's 5*12 (at 200% power strength) and you'll get a 60 health damage bonus on all tentacles when they capture a new target. 
  I don't want to increase the capturing damage as it already deals finisher damage and does so pretty rapidly. 
• Tempest Barrage (1) - Screenshake for enemy:  Enemies in the AoE of the targeted area immediately get -30% accuracy. Since self-casting it causes your accuracy to be horrible with the screenshake I think it makes sense for the enemy to suffer the same, whether they get knocked down or not they'll have a debuff on them.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Navarchus

[Somb3rBivalve]

6 hours ago, Navarchus said:

"Finally, I am a little concerned that, build-wise, power strength won't matter enough on him with this rework. Without exact numbers, it's hard to tell, but I'm assuming that his 1,2, and 4 still aren't going to do all that much damage, so building high power strength still won't be that rewarding with those abilities. As for his 3, if you want the damage to be percent-based like that, I would assume that that percent would be unaffected by power strength because that is how most similar %based damage abilities work. That said, taking into account a 3 that doesn't scale off power strength, I don't see power strength mattering enough here, which is a problem when it comes to trying to promote balanced builds."

I think you're right, the most popular currently is duration & range ever since they nerfed Pilfering Swarms loot scaling off of Power Strength.
Despite him dealing finisher damage it's really too low to be worth doing a power strength build on your own, with a Banshee, Octavia, Equinox and so on people tend to combo Hydroid to be able to increase his damage since he's just not capable of having sustainable damage over level 80.
I can't think of scaling ways to improve on his damage at least not right now. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them your previous suggestion was definitely worth writing down.

• Tentacle Swarm (4) - Scaling: 2,5% Of the targets health is converted to damage for the next time a tentacle emerges on a new target, stacks continuously. Emerging damage increased, not capturing damage. The percentage scales with power strength.
  Example: 2,5% of 12 enemies at 100% and at 200% power strength that's 5% of 12 targets total health dealt in damage for all tentacles when re-emerging.
  So if you hit 12 leapers with 100 health, that's 5*12 (at 200% power strength) and you'll get a 60 health damage bonus on all tentacles when they capture a new target. 
  I don't want to increase the capturing damage as it already deals finisher damage and does so pretty rapidly. 
• Tempest Barrage (1) - Screenshake for enemy:  Enemies in the AoE of the targeted area immediately get -30% accuracy. Since self-casting it causes your accuracy to be horrible with the screenshake I think it makes sense for the enemy to suffer the same, whether they get knocked down or not they'll have a debuff on them.

In regards to improving power strength scaling, what you have edited there for his 4 seems to be alright. There are 2 other changes I would make to improve that:

• For his tempest barrage, make the accuracy debuff be affected by power strength
• For undertow, I would put the damage at 100 finisher damage (scaling off power strength) at max rank for every enemy you have in the pool. So with 10 enemies in the pool, you are dealing 1000 finisher damage per second, which I think is still substantial enough even if the scaling is not %based. Likewise, if you had 200% power strength, you could get to 1000 finisher damage with only 5 enemies, and I think if you really want %based scaling damage, you could keep if how it is and it would be alright, but I don't know, that's your decision.

[Navarc]

1 hour ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

In regards to improving power strength scaling, what you have edited there for his 4 seems to be alright. There are 2 other changes I would make to improve that:

• For his tempest barrage, make the accuracy debuff be affected by power strength
• For undertow, I would put the damage at 100 finisher damage (scaling off power strength) at max rank for every enemy you have in the pool. So with 10 enemies in the pool, you are dealing 1000 finisher damage per second, which I think is still substantial enough even if the scaling is not %based. Likewise, if you had 200% power strength, you could get to 1000 finisher damage with only 5 enemies, and I think if you really want %based scaling damage, you could keep if how it is and it would be alright, but I don't know, that's your decision.

Making it static rather than percentage makes it easier to calculate, predict, easier to implement & comprehend and I actually think that's an excellent number to go with that won't be nuts for beginners and will hold up in the late game while further encouraging people to use the tentacles to pull enemies in to stack more damage.
Both have been improved with your suggestions, really appreciate the thinking you're doing to improve this thread & the potential for hydroid in the future, man.

I think with your additions he's already facing a lot more build variety when it comes to power stats!

• Tempest Barrage (1) - Screenshake for enemy:  Enemies in the AoE of the targeted area immediately get -30% accuracy. Scales with power strength
  Since self-casting it causes your accuracy to be horrible with the screenshake I think it makes sense for the enemy to suffer the same, whether they get knocked down or not they'll have a debuff on them
• Undertow (3) - Scaling damage:  Deals 100 Finisher damage for each enemy submerged. Scales with power strength.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Navarchus

[Noabettiet]

Now all that it takes is some dev to notice this and hopefully discuss, tbh

[blacklusterseph]

For me his skills feel split over play styles that don't really gel with each other. Personally, I think tailoring his abilities to a more mobile, run-and-gun kit would make him more enjoyable. What I'd suggest would be:

Tempest Barrage: make it conceptually like a lashing rain that gives a guaranteed blind proc in a cone in front of Hydroid (cone similar to Banshee's 1). The augment could still give a corrosive proc in addition to the blind. The utility would then be high even if the damage didn't scale and if you didn't want to use the augment.

Tidal Surge: as many have said, it really doesn't look nice visually compared to other effects in the game. Functionally, I'd like it to move like a bullet jump, but if you come into contact with anything (enemy or environment) it causes a blast proc and stops Hydroid immediately. How I imagine this gameplay-wise is you could be running around, see a mob, Surge into one of the  enemies and knock them all down while having a clear idea where you will end up. Similarly if you did Surge into a wall you would blast everyone near the point of impact, or if you were in mid air, you could surge into the ground like Zephyr. The main things would be bullet jump mobility (so you turn into a jet of water that is aimed with the crosshair), a hard knockdown (even if the actual blast dmg is low) and clear to the player where Hydroid will end up and what the result on the enemies will be.

Undertow: I feel this ability would be more fun if it encouraged mobility rather than camping. To that effect, I'd like to see this conceptually change to an aqua-plane. It would be re-castable as you are running and Surging around and would have Hydroid punch the ground and cause all enemies in an AoE to slip and fall (like Fire Quake). The area lasts for a brief time (so enemies that run in also slip) but the idea would be that you could cast it again if you were on the move rather than have it persist like Hallowed Ground. The augment could still give a heal but it would be a modest flat value per cast rather than over time (so you could use it to heal your team but it would not be as good as Trinity, Oberon or Equinox)

Tentacle Swarm: The toughest one since people have become so reliant on the augment. I think the OP's suggestions would suffice, but I think in addition, it might work better as a deployable similar to Nidus's tentacle trap. Hydroid can then control where the tentacles are spawning and they can keep pulling/slamming enemies into a set area. The damage can perhaps scale with the number of enemies you can trap in it as they slam into each other. The augment can still do what it currently does.

 

I think if his 3 and 4 worked like above, they would be more predictable/controllable and less annoying for Hydroid's teammates as you can still help kill Undertow victims and allies can focus fire/powers around where the Tentacle Swarm centre is deployed.

 

 

[Navarc]

1 hour ago, blacklusterseph said:

For me his skills feel split over play styles that don't really gel with each other. Personally, I think tailoring his abilities to a more mobile, run-and-gun kit would make him more enjoyable. What I'd suggest would be:

Tempest Barrage: make it conceptually like a lashing rain that gives a guaranteed blind proc in a cone in front of Hydroid (cone similar to Banshee's 1). The augment could still give a corrosive proc in addition to the blind. The utility would then be high even if the damage didn't scale and if you didn't want to use the augment.

Tidal Surge: as many have said, it really doesn't look nice visually compared to other effects in the game. Functionally, I'd like it to move like a bullet jump, but if you come into contact with anything (enemy or environment) it causes a blast proc and stops Hydroid immediately. How I imagine this gameplay-wise is you could be running around, see a mob, Surge into one of the  enemies and knock them all down while having a clear idea where you will end up. Similarly if you did Surge into a wall you would blast everyone near the point of impact, or if you were in mid air, you could surge into the ground like Zephyr. The main things would be bullet jump mobility (so you turn into a jet of water that is aimed with the crosshair), a hard knockdown (even if the actual blast dmg is low) and clear to the player where Hydroid will end up and what the result on the enemies will be.

Undertow: I feel this ability would be more fun if it encouraged mobility rather than camping. To that effect, I'd like to see this conceptually change to an aqua-plane. It would be re-castable as you are running and Surging around and would have Hydroid punch the ground and cause all enemies in an AoE to slip and fall (like Fire Quake). The area lasts for a brief time (so enemies that run in also slip) but the idea would be that you could cast it again if you were on the move rather than have it persist like Hallowed Ground. The augment could still give a heal but it would be a modest flat value per cast rather than over time (so you could use it to heal your team but it would not be as good as Trinity, Oberon or Equinox)

Tentacle Swarm: The toughest one since people have become so reliant on the augment. I think the OP's suggestions would suffice, but I think in addition, it might work better as a deployable similar to Nidus's tentacle trap. Hydroid can then control where the tentacles are spawning and they can keep pulling/slamming enemies into a set area. The damage can perhaps scale with the number of enemies you can trap in it as they slam into each other. The augment can still do what it currently does.

 

I think if his 3 and 4 worked like above, they would be more predictable/controllable and less annoying for Hydroid's teammates as you can still help kill Undertow victims and allies can focus fire/powers around where the Tentacle Swarm centre is deployed.

 

 

It sounds to me you want a completely different warframe if you're going to be replacing most of the abilities, man. Perhaps you should make a new thread on the concept section or write a Hydroid re-invented thread?

[Hammahness808]

Already posted saying these changes are great, however, will copy+paste a thread I made on him 6 days ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/69ze4e/problems_why_hydroid_isnt_popular_or_used_in_the/

 

Quote

Quote

*I'll preface this by saying that I'm a fairly casual player with 1400 hours into the game, I generally complete daily sorties, have completed both normal and nightmare LoR, and my longest time in a mission was probably around 1hr20min in Surival, 40 wave T4 Defense, and 20 wave T4 Interception. This is also a more revised form of [my post](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/794808-hydroid-thoughts-and-simple-changes-to-bring-him-into-the-frame-meta-group/) from the forums.*

 

His abilities are definitely outdated compared to recent frame releases and frame reworks. We know he's on DE's list for changes but, this is my thoughts on some simple changes that will make playing him more rewarding and scale more into the later game. Scroll to the bottom for the suggested list of changes. Otherwise, prepare for a bit of text trying identify why he isn't normally seen in later levels and how that could be fixed.

 

So, the "late game" or enemies higher than level 50 or so, **what incentive do we have to use Hydroid?** Well, he's good at area denial, knocking enemies down, and letting you take potty breaks when you need to. With his recent augment, Corroding Barrage (at max rank, guarantees a Barrage missile will apply a Corrosive status on an enemy), you may be tempted to take him out against Grineer. You could also be a Hydroid fan and say his abilities are unique or fun to use.

 

With good area denial skills, why don't we see him more often? Well, those of us who play at later levels generally have a lot more crowd control frames that do that and better. Whether it's cheaper, more consistent, better (enemies also debuffed or open to finishers), have more utility (healing areas), have a longer duration, a much larger area, or a combination of these. With his first two abilities being used for crowd control and barrage having a base duration of only 5 seconds, enemies being only knocked down, it's required that you recast these abilities often throughout the mission. For a frame that's supposed to control the battlefield (with abilities), he also a fairly low energy pool compared to other casters/crowd control frames.

•  * Tempest Barrage while being one handed and can be laid down in multiple spots, has a somewhat long casting time, and has a base duration of only 5 seconds.
•  * Tidal Surge energy cost is outdated. Compared to other charge attacks, has less damage/utility and simply knocks down enemies in a line.
•  * Undertow is a bit more consistent with it's crowd control, completely taking enemies out of the fight and generally knocking them down upon exit. However, the knockdown on exit is inconsistent and taking enemies completely out of the fight stops *anyone* from damaging them.
•  * Tentacle Swarm crowd control consistency has always been a topic of discussion. As an 100 energy ability and use for crowd control, only being able to target 12 enemies feels inefficient. I know the 12 target limit is there for controlling damage output and to reduce frame-rate issues on lower end devices. The best results come from casting it an area with 12 or more enemies in the effect radius as generally a tentacle will spawn under and immediately grab their initial targets, however, unless the tentacles are densely packed together - they will rarely grab another target. It also has same problem as Undertow in that, when it is affecting enemies (when tentacles are slamming enemies around), enemies are very hard to target without long reaching melee weapons or AoE weapons/abilities. This takes some of the incentive out of using the ability when in a squad. Other frames with crowd control abilities will generally group enemies together or in some form, halt them in place, making them easy targets.

 

Damage is not Hydroid's strong suit either, nor is tanking it. He has less energy than most crowd control frames and he's nearly just as weak as them (when taking damage), with a very slight edge of higher shields. The damage amount and type of damage from Tempest Barrage gets easily over looked in later levels. The flat and low damage from Tidal surge is also negligible in later levels. The flat damage from Tentacle Swarm, while being *finisher* type damage and bypassing shields/armor, doesn't do a lot to the high health base infested units and falls off at higher levels against heavier Grineer/Corpus units. Most of the ability damage potential also comes from having a higher duration, can only affect 12 targets at a time, and suffers from the smaller hitbox and AI of the tentacles spawned.

When trying to stay alive longer With Tidal Impunity, you can become immune to status effects for a short time and this can definitely diminish forms of damage that would normally be lethal. With Undertow, you can become invulnerable and regenerate shields (and health, with the augment) but, the regeneration feels very slow, the damage is practically in single digits, companions will still be vulnerable and targeted, and has no interaction with the game (aside from snaring enemies that run over you - passively). When you exit Undertow, you're now against just as vulnerable as when you entered. What I'm getting at, is that it is a resting place, not a form of true damage mitigation. Every other frame with a form of damage mitigation is allowed to stay and fight, has incoming damage negated or reduced by a percentage, while still being able to use abilities or weapons with [high] damaging capabilities.

 

His passive has a 50% chance to spawn a single Tentacle on a Melee Ground Slam, which has a rare chance of snaring an enemy and at later levels, does poor damage. In it's current state, it's just a cool factor, and anyone with a keyboard and a brain has said so.

 

Through my time of visiting the reddit and game forums, I've noticed a few comments that have pointed out that Hydroid seems to have an incentive to be a "in your face" type of playstyle. More suited to Melee use.

Equipping and blocking with a melee weapon provides the damage reduction that is lacking from his base armor and abilities. He has a charge ability, like the rest, which provides damage immunity that can be helpful when trying to get closer to enemies. His first three abilities provide knockdown effects which opens enemies to melee ground finishers which will help scale his damage output. And lastly, his passive - a tentacle has a chance to spawn from a melee ground slam attack.

However, one cannot block and attack at the same time. You cannot block damage from your sides or rear with an equipped melee weapon - while blocking your front and he doesn't have any abilities that directly interact with melee use.

 

SUGGESTED CHANGES:

Increase base Power pool by at least 25. Being a caster, this puts him closer to other frames with the same stats and ability usage.

Passive: Enemies suffering from knockdowns, caused from his first three abilities, take a longer time to get up and move slower for a small duration afterwards.

This will significantly boost the crowd control aspects of his first three abilities, putting him in line with other frames while also having the effect of needing to cast them less often - thereby reducing energy consumption.

Tempest Barrage: At max rank now has a base duration of 8-12 seconds and the damage over time has been altered to reflect the original total damage. Also, now has a Combo window time to reduce energy cost and increase damage.

These changes are twofold. Increasing the base duration and combo'd with the passive change, will drastically increase Barrage's area-of-denial effectiveness and increase the crowd control ability of Hydroid enough to be in competition with other CC/caster frames. The Combo window will let you control multiple areas for reduced cost. When also stacked in an area and built with Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, or a AoE viral status build gun - allows Hydroid to have a damage ability that scales much higher.

Tidal Surge: Energy cost reduced to 25-35. After emerging from "the tide" (when transforming back), Hydroid receives a buff of percentile damage reduction for a short period of time.

This will bring it in line with other charge abilities and increase Hydroid's survival by giving him some true damage mitigation. This will also make it easier, at higher levels, to charge a group of enemies - knock them down, and perform a ground finisher or two. I think 50% damage reduction (unsure at the time if it should be affected by mods) for 4-6 seconds would be fair.

Undertow: Increased energy cost from 10 to 15 and at rank 30, 3 energy drain. After emerging from Undertow, Hydroid receives a buff of percentile damage reduction for a short period of time. Duration and damage reduction increases up to a point, the longer you remain in Undertow. Enemies that emerge from Undertow also take increased damage from abilities and weapons, also increased by length of immersion. To balance this, increased energy drain over time for every enemy affected, every 5 seconds or so. Hydroid's other three abilities are able to be cast from Undertow with no additional changes.

These changes have many uses obviously. This cements Undertow as a defensive ability and allowing Hydroid's survival ability scale much higher. If you're in Undertow for a long time, you're recovering a lot of damage (which at later levels, comes often) or you're defending a point where enemies will be going, or you're going afk because your dog is barfing in the living room after eating out of the trash can (and is attempting to re-eat it). The debuff would allow Hydroid's damage to scale further into the game and reward you for trapping more enemies.

Suggested numbers for buff and debuff: 50% damage reduction for 3-5 seconds, can be increased up to 90% damage reduction for 6-10 seconds, unaffected by mods, max stats after 6-10 seconds of immersion. Damage debuff of 30%, increased up to 200%. Power strength would increase how fast the debuff goes up while the cap remains unaffected. Max debuff after 5-8 seconds.

Note: Being able to cast abilities from Undertow will stop it from being a more passive ability (stare at the screen for xx seconds) and allows the Devs to throw in some good old ability combinations (Synergy!)

Tentacle Swarm/4th ability:

Tentacle change:

Spoiler

If the AI, mechanic, and behavior is unchanged. Allow the tentacles to despawn+respawn to retarget, if no target is hit in two consecutive seconds. Individually being able to withdraw and respawn in a different area will make the crowd control aspect and damage potential of the ability much more consistent.

 

Mechanic suggested change (1):

Spoiler

Treat the ability like World on Fire. Give it a slightly smaller radius, reduce the amount of enemy wiggle/slam (for easier shooting), and give Tentacles the change as suggested above. This changes the ability from a set area denial ability and more into a better survival and self-area crowd control ability. You could argue this would make it too similar to Undertow in that it is a form of crowd control around one's self. But this is seperated from Undertow by allowing you and allies to target enemies affected.

Mechanic suggested change (2):

Spoiler

Tentacles no longer wriggle or slam enemies. Instead, they coil around enemies and hold them in place, dealing damage through constriction. I've read this suggestion somewhere and think it's an excellent idea. This turns Swarm into a much more team friendly crowd control method when you can target and easily hit the affected enemies. Something to think about adding to it, is the ability to do finishers on affected enemies, or ground finishers (similar to Nezha's ability). This would put another choice and form of damage scaling into Hydroid's kit.

Mechanic suggested change (3):

Spoiler

Scrap the ability entirely and give him something that completely controls (not constricted to limited amount of targets) and set defined area (like before) with decent range (like before), and duration (like before). I could write a dozen ideas down for this, for different names and how they would look and how they would be thematic but I leave that up to imagination. A consistent and solid crowd control ability this large would absolutely put him in competition with other crowd control frames and along with the other changes, incentivize people to use him again.

 

In Summary:

•  * Increased survival from damage reduction buffs from both Tidal Surge and Undertow. Along with changes to increase effectiveness of his crowd control.
•  * Increased crowd control effectiveness through the change to his passive and interaction with the knockdown effects from his first three abilities. As well as an increased base duration for Tempest barrage and changes to his 4th ability.
•  * Scaling damage through a combo window for Tempest barrage and the added debuff ability to Undertow. As well as more consistent or scaling damage from changes to his 4th ability.
•  * Undertow becomes slightly more stimulating than watching paint dry.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by TGKazein

[Toybasher]

I hope I don't get laughed at, but I really wish we could move in Undertow, to make it a more stealthy option to pass laser barriers, etc. without setting off an alarm etc by turning into a puddle and simply sliding underneth them. 

When I heard about Undertow that was my first thought, thinking it would be a stealth ability like Loki or Ash. 

 

[Navarc]

Just now, Toybasher said:

I hope I don't get laughed at, but I really wish we could move in Undertow, to make it a more stealthy option to pass laser barriers, etc. without setting off an alarm etc by turning into a puddle and simply sliding underneth them. 

When I heard about Undertow that was my first thought, thinking it would be a stealth ability like Loki or Ash. 

 

It is what it should have been from the start, you're entirely right. Thank you for supporting the thread, I want the same thing and so does much of the community.

• Undertow (3) - Mobility: Move very slowly but actually able to move around. Double energy consumption whilst moving & the range is halved while moving.
• Undertow (3) - Spy utility: Lasers that pass over you, such as those in Spy rooms won't detect you when you're in the Undertow form.

These were written specifically because of the reasons you've mentioned.

[Navarc]

19 hours ago, TGKazein said:

Already posted saying these changes are great, however, will copy+paste a thread I made on him 6 days ago:

 

 

I feel like we agree on most if not all issues but I don't think he needs so many properties of percentile damage reduction, I also don't really think it fits into the theme honestly. I've addressed alternate changes that would be more fitting such as evasion, accuracy reduction and so on in the first post which sticks to the theme better and keeps DEs will to keep him so chance based.
+30% Chance for the enemy to miss you doesn't necessarily mean 30% of the shots will miss you, you could still get hit by every single one just like it could mean in certain conditions you'll not be hit by any projectile when you normally would have. I feel like adding so much damage reduction while he already has 2 states of invulnerability without outputting any real damage would just be an overcomplicated version of armour except you can't gain it in no-energy sorties&nightmare modes meaning it's worse in many cases.

I think the way you describe his tentacles re-emerging which is one of the suggestions in the thread as being similar to World On Fire is spot on though, I hope you don't mind that I'll use it as an example to describe the effect.

Overall we agree on his issues & both want him improved and his problems solved just in different ways. Have you made your reddit post into a thread here on WF forums though?

[Hammahness808]

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I feel like we agree on most if not all issues but I don't think he needs so many properties of percentile damage reduction, I also don't really think it fits into the theme honestly. I've addressed alternate changes that would be more fitting such as evasion, accuracy reduction and so on in the first post which sticks to the theme better and keeps DEs will to keep him so chance based.
+30% Chance for the enemy to miss you doesn't necessarily mean 30% of the shots will miss you, you could still get hit by every single one just like it could mean in certain conditions you'll not be hit by any projectile when you normally would have. I feel like adding so much damage reduction while he already has 2 states of invulnerability without outputting any real damage would just be an overcomplicated version of armour except you can't gain it in no-energy sorties&nightmare modes meaning it's worse in many cases.

Pretty much, that's why I shared it. As far as the evasion vs damage reduction. I first thought evasion would be pretty cool for a water-themed frame but due to inconsistencies of that type of damage reduction and how it failed in the Diablo 3 series, I suggested damage reduction. Also, evasion would be a new mechanic that DE would have to play with, slapping on some DR% should be much easier to implement.

Invulnerable states mean nothing if you can't do anything in them. Which is the problem I find with Undertow. Every other frame in the game, using invulnerability states or damage mitigation abilities  can still fight but Hydroid can't do squat but recover shields (or health) while he makes enemies invulnerable to ally damage. As far as damage mitigation though, in higher levels you can take a breather and regen (feels like it takes forever) but as soon as you pop back up, there's a good chance you will be hit back to low health again and have to re-submerge after. Which is definitely why his CC needs to be stronger or he needs a formal way to reduce damage without having to equip and block with melee.

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I think the way you describe his tentacles re-emerging which is one of the suggestions in the thread as being similar to World On Fire is spot on though, I hope you don't mind that I'll use it as an example to describe the effect.

 

Don't mind at all.

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Have you made your reddit post into a thread here on WF forums though?

The reddit thread is actually a revised version of a thread I posted a day before, on the forums.

Edited May 16, 2017 by TGKazein

[Navarc]

24 minutes ago, TGKazein said:

Pretty much, that's why I shared it. As far as the evasion vs damage reduction. I first thought evasion would be pretty cool for a water-themed frame but due to inconsistencies of that type of damage reduction and how it failed in the Diablo 3 series, I suggested damage reduction. Also, evasion would be a new mechanic that DE would have to play with, slapping on some DR% should be much easier to implement.

Invulnerable states mean nothing if you can't do anything in them. Which is the problem I find with Undertow. Every other frame in the game, using invulnerability states or damage mitigation abilities  can still fight but Hydroid can't do squat but recover shields (or health) while he makes enemies invulnerable to ally damage. As far as damage mitigation though, in higher levels you can take a breather and regen (feels like it takes forever) but as soon as you pop back up, there's a good chance you will be hit back to low health again and have to re-submerge after. Which is definitely why his CC needs to be stronger or he needs a formal way to reduce damage without having to equip and block with melee.

Don't mind at all.

The reddit thread is actually a revised version of a thread I posted a day before, on the forums.

Just want to point out that evasion isn't a new thing in warframe, not even on warframes themselves. They're mostly unused systems, but they've been here since even before I joined.
DE has tried adding evasion to things recently even but it hasn't gotten much attention but that's better than getting negative attention. 


 

[Noabettiet]

21 hours ago, Toybasher said:

I hope I don't get laughed at, but I really wish we could move in Undertow, to make it a more stealthy option to pass laser barriers, etc. without setting off an alarm etc by turning into a puddle and simply sliding underneth them. 

When I heard about Undertow that was my first thought, thinking it would be a stealth ability like Loki or Ash. 

 

You wouldn't be the first person to think it would be cool

Walking poodle of doom, just sounds cool and dumb.

[blacklusterseph]

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Pretty much, that's why I shared it. As far as the evasion vs damage reduction. I first thought evasion would be pretty cool for a water-themed frame but due to inconsistencies of that type of damage reduction and how it failed in the Diablo 3 series, I suggested damage reduction. Also, evasion would be a new mechanic that DE would have to play with, slapping on some DR% should be much easier to implement.

Yeah, I don't think evasion is really worthwhile in any game where enemy mobs dominate the game loop. It becomes more and more meaningless for every enemy added. I'm not convinced it scales in Warframe either. What is the point of every 3rd shot missing you if the enemy only needs one to one-shot you.

[Mousarchy]

43 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Just want to point out that evasion isn't a new thing in warframe, not even on warframes themselves. They're mostly unused systems, but they've been here since even before I joined.
DE has tried adding evasion to things recently even but it hasn't gotten much attention but that's better than getting negative attention. 


 

ya. I WANT to say its been here since before Titania even I just dont remember exactly. but evasion basically sums up to "units have reduced accuracy when they target you" so basically if you have a units attention they lose a % value of there to hit meter. (which enemy accuracy scales on range of there perspective guns...but thats irrelevant to talk about)

but despite me thinking SOME of yoru changes are going overboard (sometimes you gotta go overboard inorder to get a splash) I personally WOULD love to see a passive they gave him Evasion during/after skill cast. Let hydroid "flow like water" you could say.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Ordosan

[Hammahness808]

58 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Just want to point out that evasion isn't a new thing in warframe, not even on warframes themselves. They're mostly unused systems, but they've been here since even before I joined.
DE has tried adding evasion to things recently even but it hasn't gotten much attention but that's better than getting negative attention. 


 

Oops, lol

18 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

Yeah, I don't think evasion is really worthwhile in any game where enemy mobs dominate the game loop. It becomes more and more meaningless for every enemy added. I'm not convinced it scales in Warframe either. What is the point of every 3rd shot missing you if the enemy only needs one to one-shot you.

A valid point.