Noob with Ash: any suggestion for me please?

[Hypernaut1]

13 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Considering FT does exactly the same and isn't an energy devouring marking mode and both kill roughly at the same speed, except FT scales way better than BS, BS only function now is a very expensive Cool ability, and that's it. It's cool but nearly pointless. Except in Conclave, where it's downright detrimental to the user in every sense of the word, making it completely useless.

Man, give it up. If you don't know how to use BS, then just say that. It's not a useless ability and from my experience Ash doesn't really run into energy problems too often. It's balanced.

FT is single target ability, BS can target a multiple enemies. Simple concept really. Spammers are mad they can't delete a room of trash mobs at the press of a button, but that is not Ash's purpose anymore. He's there to kill high level targets. He's an assassin now. He's one of the best as killing multiple high level enemies, faster than even most weapons. 

So yeah, BS is definitely not pointless. Some people just don't know how to use it.

If you keep it running it synergizes well with his other abilities. You can use it while assaulting a room, then activate it to finish off the rest while also becoming invulnerable. FT doesn't do that.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Man, give it up. If you don't know how to use BS, then just say that. It's not a useless ability and from my experience Ash doesn't really run into energy problems too often. It's balanced.

Math backs me up here. Big time. Ash doesn't run into energy problems as long as you DON'T use BS, at all. Maybe you should play him on default efficiency for once without Zenurik to see my point. 15 energy per target, 45 if you apply 3 marks and all of them are used, equals a whooping 150 to 450 energy for 10 targets, that is insane.

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

FT is single target ability, BS can target a multiple enemies. Simple concept really. Spammers are mad they can't delete a room of trash mobs at the press of a button, but that is not Ash's purpose anymore. He's there to kill high level targets. He's an assassin now. He's one of the best as killing multiple high level enemies, faster than even most weapons. 

FT is a single target ability, but with the already mentioned insane BS mark cost, BS falls into the same category, otherwise you waste ridiculous amounts of energy on grunts. BS was supposed to be Ash¡s mass murder tool, hence why it has only a 50 enemy cap (yes, that's the cap). And FT scales much better on high level than BS for a THIRD of the energy cost.

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

So yeah, BS is definitely not pointless. Some people just don't know how to use it.

Some people don't run with Zenurik, Max Efficiency, Rage and Arcane Energize+hugging a Trinity to use it.

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

If you keep it running it synergizes well with his other abilities. You can use it while assaulting a room, then activate it to finish off the rest while also becoming invulnerable. FT doesn't do that.

It doesn't synergize sh^t. Do you know what the word "synergy" even means?!

Wait, so it IS a mass murder tool according to that "use" you describe, despite saying on the same comment that it ISN'T a mass murder tool?

Simply put, you know nothing about game balance, what synergy is, what kind of game you are playing or what Ash's theme and abilities are supposed to be for.

[Hypernaut1]

29 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

 

Math backs me up here. Big time. Ash doesn't run into energy problems as long as you DON'T use BS, at all. Maybe you should play him on default efficiency for once without Zenurik to see my point. 15 energy per target, 45 if you apply 3 marks and all of them are used, equals a whooping 150 to 450 energy for 10 targets, that is insane.

FT is a single target ability, but with the already mentioned insane BS mark cost, BS falls into the same category, otherwise you waste ridiculous amounts of energy on grunts. BS was supposed to be Ash¡s mass murder tool, hence why it has only a 50 enemy cap (yes, that's the cap). And FT scales much better on high level than BS for a THIRD of the energy cost.

Some people don't run with Zenurik, Max Efficiency, Rage and Arcane Energize+hugging a Trinity to use it.

It doesn't synergize sh^t. Do you know what the word "synergy" even means?!

Wait, so it IS a mass murder tool according to that "use" you describe, despite saying on the same comment that it ISN'T a mass murder tool?

Simply put, you know nothing about game balance, what synergy is, what kind of game you are playing or what Ash's theme and abilities are supposed to be for.

There isnt a frame i use in this game without some form of energy efficiency. Most frames in this game run into issues if you spam their ult without any efficiency mods, so i see no point in using him without them. The only mods i use on Ash is a non maxed fleeting combined with streamline. I dont use zenurik (naramon) and i definitely dont use rage (who takes damage with Ash?), and i use Trickery for my arcanes in both slots. What kind of Ash player are you? Thats a terrible assumption to make.

First off...Synergy does NOT mean dependency. It simply means that the abilities work well together during gameplay. When im playing Ash i can get into a very satisfying rhythm with him. SS works well with BS, not just because it reduces the cost, but it lets you survey a room, mark enemies, and position yourself to attack and possible retreat if necessary. FT works well with BS because you can mark while also using the skill to target the most difficult enemies. Ash also continues to mark during the FT animation. So you can FT into a group, and then unleash BS.  They also function slightly differently. FT brings you directly to the target, while BS returns you to the spot where you cast from. A smart Ash players uses both effectively.

BS doesnt synergize with shuriken too well though, there is really no reason to use them in conjunction. 

I never did say that BS was not a mass murder tool. I said that its not made to delete trash mobs anymore. Thats not his purpose. In low level Star chart missions, your teammates will be done with most enemies by the time you finish BS. Where the ability shines is in high level play when enemies are tougher and your teammates arent just cruising through rooms killing everything easily. This is when you start to mass murder enemies before your teammates can, along with a dash of invulnerability. Go in the simulacrum and spawn 20 max level enemies. Ash can kill all of them faster than almost any other frame- not ONE enemy, a group. BS is also good at getting rid of multiple corpus drones, my teammates are usually terrible at targeting those. Ash can lock onto all of them with a sweep of the cursor. (though lately i dont notice as many drones at once anymore, they were probably nerfed)

simply put- if you arent effective with Ash, it means you have no idea how to play him.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Sipau Fade]

I run my ash with a focus on getting status procs and doing more damage and healing with melee. In other words I face tank with ash and melee. 

For that I use the two arcanes that give armor boost with a finisher or getting hit.  (guardian and finisher). 

 

With running a maxed possible armor build for ash I end up with 69% damage mitigation when both arcades are on. (Up from 56%) 

 

if that hat sounds good to you, try those two arcanes

 

 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There isnt a frame i use in this game without some form of energy efficiency. Most frames in this game run into issues if you spam their ult without any efficiency mods, so i see no point in using him without them. The only mods i use on Ash is a non maxed fleeting combined with streamline. I dont use zenurik (naramon) and i definitely dont use rage (who takes damage with Ash?), and i use Trickery for my arcanes in both slots. What kind of Ash player are you? Thats a terrible assumption to make.

First off...Synergy does NOT mean dependency. It simply means that the abilities work well together during gameplay. When im playing Ash i can get into a very satisfying rhythm with him. SS works well with BS, not just because it reduces the cost, but it lets you survey a room, mark enemies, and position yourself to attack and possible retreat if necessary. FT works well with BS because you can mark while also using the skill to target the most difficult enemies. Ash also continues to mark during the FT animation. So you can FT into a group, and then unleash BS.  They also function slightly differently. FT brings you directly to the target, while BS returns you to the spot where you cast from. A smart Ash players uses both effectively.

BS doesnt synergize with shuriken too well though, there is really no reason to use them in conjunction. 

I never did say that BS was not a mass murder tool. I said that its not made to delete trash mobs anymore. Thats not his purpose. In low level Star chart missions, your teammates will be done with most enemies by the time you finish BS. Where the ability shines is in high level play when enemies are tougher and your teammates arent just cruising through rooms killing everything easily. This is when you start to mass murder enemies before your teammates can, along with a dash of invulnerability. Go in the simulacrum and spawn 20 max level enemies. Ash can kill all of them faster than almost any other frame- not ONE enemy, a group. BS is also good at getting rid of multiple corpus drones, my teammates are usually terrible at targeting those. Ash can lock onto all of them with a sweep of the cursor. (though lately i dont notice as many drones at once anymore, they were probably nerfed)

simply put- if you arent effective with Ash, it means you have no idea how to play him.

^^^^^^^this. The whole "ash will have energy problems without efficiency mods" is kinda pointless since nearly every other frame will too. Bladestorm is meant to be used when the time actually calls for it. Plus it's one of the strongest damage abilities(that doesn't need CL) in the game, of course it's going be one of the most expensive ability too. Tho I never really ran into energy problems thanks to the invisible synergy it has. 

[Tesseract7777]

6 hours ago, DP_KRoM said:

I would like to know what are the arcanes which fit better with ash?

Thank you so much.

Arcane Trickery is nice, but if you are going for more of an armor/rage build where you aren't invulnerable or invisible as much, arcane ultimatum triggers on finishers and gives you a nice reliable armor boost. 

I have had good success with using one set of each in the past on my Ash. 

You could also use Arcane Ultimatum + Arcane Guardian for a full on armor rage build if you want to do so. I have had a lot of success with similar builds in the past, all the way up to sortie 3 -- it works great. 

It doesn't sound like Ash should be able to rage, as his armor isn't that high, but he has a high health pool, and with at least one armor arcane + steel fiber and armored agility, you can take enough hits at sortie 3 level at least that rage is effective without you going down. I personally love rage builds in general on any frame, and will stuff rage builds on frames like Vauban where it shouldn't make any sense at all. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There isnt a frame i use in this game without some form of energy efficiency. Most frames in this game run into issues if you spam their ult without any efficiency mods, so i see no point in using him without them. The only mods i use on Ash is a non maxed fleeting combined with streamline. I dont use zenurik (naramon) and i definitely dont use rage (who takes damage with Ash?), and i use Trickery for my arcanes in both slots. What kind of Ash player are you? Thats a terrible assumption to make.

That's the thing, I don't spam abilties, BS drains you dry on default effi (or even with Streamline) just by using it on small groups. Also, my powerbuilt friend, you may fail to grasp the idea of someone using actual EHP on Ash with rage, after all, before Inaros and Nidus showed up, Ash was the frame with the largest health pool in the game.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

First off...Synergy does NOT mean dependency. It simply means that the abilities work well together during gameplay. 

In gaming sense, it means the abilities do their job on their own, but don't require each other to be good at it.  Dependency is when you are required to use abilities to make other abilities worth using, Saryn is a good example of this.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

When im playing Ash i can get into a very satisfying rhythm with him. SS works well with BS, not just because it reduces the cost, but it lets you survey a room, mark enemies, and position yourself to attack and possible retreat if necessary.

Or enter the room, survey the area, stealth kill or teleport kill the highest threats, then dispatch the rest with your guns or melee. Without all the energy sink of BS.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 FT works well with BS because you can mark while also using the skill to target the most difficult enemies. Ash also continues to mark during the FT animation. So you can FT into a group, and then unleash BS.  They also function slightly differently. FT brings you directly to the target, while BS returns you to the spot where you cast from. A smart Ash players uses both effectively.

Now tell me how you mark when you have zero energy because you just happened to stare into 5 or 6 dudes clumped together. BS returning isn't really that useful unless you casted it from a safe spot, which means that, in a direct fight, you need first to disengage the enemy. And on a stealth run is cr*p too because Ash is fully visible and will alert everybody.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

BS doesnt synergize with shuriken too well though, there is really no reason to use them in conjunction. 

Point given.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I never did say that BS was not a mass murder tool. I said that its not made to delete trash mobs anymore. Thats not his purpose. In low level Star chart missions, your teammates will be done with most enemies by the time you finish BS. Where the ability shines is in high level play when enemies are tougher and your teammates arent just cruising through rooms killing everything easily. This is when you start to mass murder enemies before your teammates can, along with a dash of invulnerability. Go in the simulacrum and spawn 20 max level enemies. Ash can kill all of them faster than almost any other frame- not ONE enemy, a group. BS is also good at getting rid of multiple corpus drones, my teammates are usually terrible at targeting those. Ash can lock onto all of them with a sweep of the cursor. (though lately i dont notice as many drones at once anymore, they were probably nerfed)

Until you factor in that trashmobs need to be destroyed too on high level, less they overwhelm the team or Ash if he's playing alone. Yes, you will mass murder them, but yo will also need like 2k energy PER cast to actually clear. Also, you mean a "small group". Try to mark near the BS cap of 50 and you will see how broken and sh*tty it really is. Getting rid of corpus drones, wow, such awesome POWER!

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

simply put- if you arent effective with Ash, it means you have no idea how to play him.

Oh, I am effective, I can go alone for large amounts of time vs any level range, and even vs Corpus. I also have around 3.5k hours of playtime with Ash, and I have used nearly every build. I can also work well in a group setting, carrying my own weight and generally being a supportive player (I even brought Smoke Shadow back in pre-revisit times, which made me one of the 5 or 6 actual players who did so instead of spamming BS)

What I'm trying to convey to you (in vain probably) is that:

"That something works doesn't mean it's right"

[Kronxito]

Ok thx all for your suggestions. I tried ash.... But I dont like him.... So he will return to my vault :-p

Edited May 18, 2017 by DP_KRoM