Remove Boss Invulnerability Mechanics

[biggians]

They slow down the game unnecessarily. Remove the damage cap for how long the jackal will stay down. Have it be a timer where he stays down for like 7 seconds and then stands back up. It's ridiculous how long it can take to kill some of these bosses because of these silly and pointless mechanics. I honestly shoot the Jackal's leg 2 times with my Hek and he goes down, and in 2-3 more shots he stands right back up, invincible the whole time where myself and potential teammates would want to take advantage of him being in a weakened state. This drags the fight out when it should be over ages sooner. Is there even a point to these mechanics? is it supposed to be some kind of anti-rush thing?

 

I know I only cover the Jackal's, but this also applies to Vor's mechanic and all the other ones that exist. They're just a waste of time IMO.

Edited July 15, 2013 by biggians

[AscendantWyvern]

"They slow the game down..."

 

You do know these are boss fights, right? Not trying to be rude or anything, but they are supposed to require tactics and time to take out rather than shoot em till dead (well...the good bosses at least)

Edited July 15, 2013 by AscendantWyvern

[VinceBlood]

"They slow the game down..."

 

You do know these are boss fights, right? Not trying to be rude or anything, but they are supposed to require tactics and time to take out rather than shoot em till dead (well...the good bosses at least)

 

Lech Kril's invulnerability mechanic needs a good looking-at.  His AI can get stuck in 'only use Gorgon' mode and he may take upwards of 10 minutes to use a freeze attack.  This leads to 30 minute run-around fights where a team just needs to hide behind a box until Kril decides to trigger his freeze.

 

I agree with the OP.  Invulnerability mechanics are boring and make bosses less fun.  Vor is a great example.  He has tons of new powers but still uses an invul bubble.  Why not make him use a power so deadly that players have to find cover rather than wait out a bubble?

[Tsukinoki]

In Vor's case they actually signify that he is going to change tactics and attacks and are a time when he doesnt attack, meaning that lower leveled players can recoup their shields and prepare for the different attacks he's going to use.

For jackal its just part of the fight. It doesnt really make it last all that longer. And if it took him 7 seconds to get up he would be killed by one downing.

Overall the bosses are too easy and this does rectify it a bit.

And bosses are SUPPOSED to take a short time to kill, not just wipe out in 15 seconds like a trash mob.

The invulnerability makes them an actual...fight?

Guess you're just a speedrunner who doesn't want an actual fight and instead wants a complete cakewalk...so NO.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Angius]

It's boss for a reason. It's strong, invulnerable, hard to kill. That's the idea of enemy called "boss".
You want to kill something fast and without any problems? Go kill other mobs. Or not, because if you want bosses to be easier you are probably a speedrunner. And you want to speedrun bosses even faster.

 

Huge NO for your proposition.

[Zareek]

They should just make an "ADHD" mode like nightmare mode. everything is speed up 50%, bosses has no armor and no invulnerability mechanics. You also deal 200% more damage! weeee.

 

 

no.

 

[MetalGerbil]

bugs are bugs, those should be fixed.

as to total time. you can finish missions im 2-3 minutes if you just boss rush. even the ones with invulnerability.

what in the actual fudge.

really? how in the nine hells is this "slow".

[Casardis]

Lech Kril's invulnerability mechanic needs a good looking-at.  His AI can get stuck in 'only use Gorgon' mode and he may take upwards of 10 minutes to use a freeze attack.  This leads to 30 minute run-around fights where a team just needs to hide behind a box until Kril decides to trigger his freeze.

It never took that long for me. That's strange. I like the way it is, especially since it's reminiscent of Zelda-like bosses to me, and I like it. Bosses like Phorid bore me to death, so I'm eager to see the new Golem.

 

However, what I don't like specifically about this boss is his lack of aggressiveness; in my opinion, he needs to be WAY more aggressive. Seriously, why can't he do a lunge hammer slam to catch you ninjas offguard, and if you happen to dodge it but is on the ground, it will do a jump attack AoE that knocks you? Heck it can even trigger an AoE ice/fire wave. This can make things tense. Instead he just stands around.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Casardis

[Magarthryx]

Yes bosses are suppose to take time to kill but not because you can't damage them. It's like a phases of a race where no-one can move. Or a part of a movie where the screen is black, there's no audio, and you can't go to the washroom. There's a difference between "time to kill" and padding.

The Jackal is terrible because when it kneels you can only deal it so much damage before it gets up and with lag you end up just spamming the legs and body in hopes that something will go through. The battle becomes spamming and watching it's animation loop for 5 minutes. Lech Kril isn't so bad if you take a banshee and everyone shoots the orange after he freezes himself. Otherwise Lech is a long boring boss fight. My biggest beef is Europa-Naamah-Raptor. Sure you're upping the difficulty but why would you give that boss invulnerability. It can one hit most frames with IT'S CHOICE of HOMING MISSILES, LASERS, and LANDMINE. With invulnerability phases at least twice in the battle this boss eats time, sanity, and revives.

 

The worst part is it's not like they're more resistant to damage in a certain phases of the battle, they just flat up take no damage. 

[Kyte]

I agree that Jackal needs to remove the damage cap (it's terrible when doing high level assassination missions because it'll barely be 0.5% of his total HP and you'll be hitting the cap with a single shot), but disagree with the rest.

 

Vor's invulnerability is fine, you get grineer spawning everywhere during those periods. They're supposed to make you break off and deal with reinforcements.

 

If you're having trouble getting Lech Kril to use his ice attack then you need to bait him more. Don't stay safe, he'll just play it safe in return. If you stay behind a box of course he won't bother going for the ice.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Kyte

[Transvistinator]

The worst part is it's not like they're more resistant to damage in a certain phases of the battle, they just flat up take no damage. 

Wrong, Raptor takes a lot less damage when his wings are folded up and really, Your complaining about a boss that can kill you if you try and spam melee in its face. Raptor at the moment actually requires tactics ( Or a frost bubble... ) to kill, And id much rather have a tatical boss, Than a 50k hp bullet sponge

[AdmiralAvalanche]

the only honest parts of invul bosses that annoy me are just the out of invul animations, and even that takes only mere milliseconds in total

 

my final verdict:

 

 

 

p.s the jackals invulnerability is false, with enough sheer numbers you can break the boss instantly, but you need a metric !%&$& tonne of damage

 

Edited July 15, 2013 by AdmiralAvalanche

[Tsukinoki]

p.s the jackals invulnerability is false, with enough sheer numbers you can break the boss instantly

I can overpower Jackal's shields with either Hek or Despair and just hitting him in the head.

He never goes down, he never gets his shields back.

It just takes a little time if you're soloing it.

[Taranis49]

It's boss for a reason. It's strong, invulnerable, hard to kill. That's the idea of enemy called "boss".

You want to kill something fast and without any problems? Go kill other mobs. Or not, because if you want bosses to be easier you are probably a speedrunner. And you want to speedrun bosses even faster.

 

Huge NO for your proposition.

 

In some cases, it doesn't really make the bosses any more challenging though, quite the opposite. I very rarely speedrun (my primary frame is an FP, which ain't exactly the quickest kid on the block). However, there's a difference between tedium, and challenge.

 

Vor and Jackal are good examples, atleast at higher levels (and yes, I'm aware that Jackal isn't technically invincible). In their respective battles (outside nightmare mode anyway), they're the only actual threat on the field if you've got high-end gear (the Mine Ospreys in Jackal's battle are beyond useless no matter what, I'd like to see them get mines similar to Raptor's). Between the level 40-odd Vor I run into and his level 4 - 5 helpers, he's easily the bigger threat and he basically just... removes himself from the battle, his reinforcements don't even matter. At higher levels Jackal's battle basically degenerates into watching him get drunk and struggle to stand up ever again, nevermind being in a position to attack you again.

 

It's also why I don't gripe about Raptor's bit where he occasionally reduces/ignores damage; he remains in the fight and continues attacking, plus his helpers aren't irrelevant like say, Vor's are.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Taranis49

[Winterbraid]

The "invulnerability" on Lech Kril and Jackal is good. They're not really invulnerable, they just require you to perform a specific set of actions to kill them as opposed to just shoot, shoot, shoot.

 

The invulnerability of Captain Vor could use a tweak. It should go away as soon as you've killed all of his summoned mooks. Because there's that awkward moment where they're all dead and you just sit there waiting for his bubble to come off (I personally use it to jump up and down on him).

 

Haven't noticed the reported invulnerability periods of the Raptor, probably because I was too busy running from his rockets.

[Cauldrath]

Jackal is fine when he's low-level. The problem is when you run into a high-level Jackal on an alert and you have to knock him down 50 times to kill him. They just need to make the knockdown and stand up health amounts a percent instead of a flat amount.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

The invulnerability makes them an actual...fight?

 

But it doesn't. The OP even explained why its an issue. The fight is already ridiculously simple it just takes forever because of the boss' arbitrary invulnerability.

You people and your bloody strawman arguments, there aren't a whole lot of posts here arguing for invulnerability phases that aren't one.

Edited July 15, 2013 by DAWGUNITALPHA

[TheHeraldXII]

"They slow the game down..."

 

You do know these are boss fights, right? Not trying to be rude or anything, but they are supposed to require tactics and time to take out rather than shoot em till dead (well...the good bosses at least)

Well, the invulnerability doesn't actually change up tactics (except in the Jackal's case) it just forces you to wait, take a sip of coffee and wait until the fight starts up again. In Lech Kril's case it's more an issue of teammates mucking it up because he won't use his abilities if anyone's close to him and Vor just arbitrarily lengthens the fight time by making you wait for him to get himself ready again.

Lech Kril honestly doens't need the invulnerability, it doesn't make him any more tactically challenging, it just means that you have to play the waiting game for a bit before the actual fight starts. Vor, as I said, just pauses the fight occasionally which changes nothing about the boss fight except add time to it. Jackal is mostly ok, but needs his damage cap before returning to the invuln state to be a % of his health, not a flat number on account of the boss scaling mechanics.

[SanguineXIII]

At the very least while they're invulnerable they should be spewing out dozens of Adds for us to fight.  Like Vor, sort of, except at least 5 times as many mobs. 

 

Vor was awesome for the first couple hours of the update when he was like over level 100 and an actual threat.  I was laughing hysterically on our first run as he teleported away and curb stomped my clan mate into the ground 4 times in a row while she was puttering around three rooms back in the level looting crap.  I then had an adrenaline rush inducing blow for blow fight with him and was glad for those short cooldown periods where he bubbled.

[ToeSama]

The jackal's a bit of a pain, but I wouldn't beg for his damage cap to go away or increase any... Though it DOES get a bit tedious on Vampire Nightmare if there's a long lull in his little Ofspre backup mobs...

[biggians]

Invuln is pointless. Proponents of it are using the "it's a boss, it's supposed to be a time sink" argument. Which is a moot point. I spent a bunch of time leveling and forma-ing my weapon(s) so they could do high damage output, which gets completely neutered by invuln.

 

In response to Vor is changing tactics during invuln, the tactic shifts only matter to someone not using a strong enough weapon to put him right back into his bubble in a matter of seconds. I spend more time standing on top of his bubble and tea-bagging him than I do actually having to shoot him.

 

In response to shoot the jackal in the head to bypass invuln, unless you have a method to stop his machineguns from tearing through you while you do that, it takes longer. I'd just as well stunlock him by downing him over and over again because it saves me from having to run around. The invincibility mechanic on downing him is literally delaying the inevitable. There is no challenge in the boss fight, so why drag it out longer than it needs to?

[SilentCynic]

I suppose DE could make Vor's bubble have an HP bar of its own. While it's active, he's stationary and regains shields, but if you have the damage, you can punch through it and keep the pressure up.

 

As for Jackal... I think he's fine, mechanically, but they need to reduce the amount of 'cycles' players have to go through. Once you've blasted a limb to pieces and damaged him a little for the twelfth time, I believe it's obvious that the player has grasped this mechanic and knows how to implement it. Having six or so 'cycles' should suffice, I feel.