Euphona Prime Grossly Overpowered

[SevenLetterKWord]

The Euphona Prime remains the single worst point of balancing in Conclave.
Frankly, I'm appalled that it has been allowed to stand this long.

The primary fire outperforms normal bows.
Let's compare it to the Paris, arguably the most competitive of all normal bows.
The Paris shoots 1.42 uncharged arrows per second at a speed of 70m/s for 111.65 damage. (DPS = 158.54)
The Paris shots 0.59 charged arrows per second at 150m/s for 223.3 damage. (DPS = 131.75)
Meanwhile, the Euphona fires 1.5 slugs per second at 180m/s for 147.3 damage.
(DPS = 220.95, 39% more than the Paris uncharged and 68% more than the Paris charged.)

This kind of damage easily two-shots medium frames and may even two-shot some heavies.
So the Euphona outdamages, outspams, and out-flight-speeds the Paris.
The only redeeming areas for bows are that they are silent, have a higher headshot multiplier, and aren't limited by magazine size.
In the face of 39-68% superior DPS, these miscellaneous advantages are negligible.

The secondary fire outperforms the entire Tigris series.
Assuming you can instantly fire both shots of the Tigris weapons and you reload-cancel perfectly:
The Tigris Prime deals 288 damage (per burst) at 0.56 bursts per second. (DPS = 160)
The Tigris deals 290 damage at 0.56 bursts per second. (DPS = 161.11)
The Sancti Tigris deals 300 damage at 0.67 bursts per second. (DPS = 200.00)
The Euphona deals 281.6 damage at 1.5 shots per second.
(DPS = 422.4, 164% more than the Tigris Prime, 162% more than the Tigris, and 111% more than the Sancti Tigris.)

This kind of damage is capable of instakilling tank frames and will easily instakill mediums and lights.
The Tigris weapons have superior performance at range, but that's poor consolation when the Euphona can pump out OHK-capable shotgun blasts at nearly triple the rate. (And if a Euphona Prime abuser is forced to engage at range, he can simply switch to super-bow mode.)

There is no way to justify this much power and versatility in a single secondary weapon.
The Euphona Prime is a secondary, and it is a versatile secondary; it has no business outperforming two classes of primary weapons.
This weapon is disgustingly overpowered and demands balancing.

Edited June 6, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[(PSN)joshw1400]

I'm pretty sure the Tigris Prime two shots, while the buck 3 shots.

The Euphona has travel time so of course it's gonna be powerful(but I do admit it's hella strong in conclave).

[dstrawberrygirl]

Tigris prime can do 100% status easily, is way easier to fire, and you can build for that one mode without compromise. Euphona can't be a hybrid and be top-tier successful at both modes - you build one way or the other, which you can only do at MR14 and higher. It's quite glorious, and maybe yeh if it's strong at conclave then it could do with a look, but I think you're overstating it for PvE. If you work for long enough to reach 14, you deserve to get access to decent weapons.

And meh on the Paris - I only use it now when I feel like puncture damage and because I got a riven for it. I'd rather pick Dread or Rakta Cernos most days. I think we all have preferences, but I disagree that it needs changing.

Edit - thanks guys, feel like an idiot, saw the post in the "recent" list, didn't notice the section I was in! :)

Edited June 6, 2017 by dstrawberrygirl

[Lavenza]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

I'm pretty sure the Tigris Prime two shots, while the buck 3 shots.

The Euphona has travel time so of course it's gonna be powerful(but I do admit it's hella strong in conclave).

Euphona's slug mode deals more damage, faster firerate, higher flight speed than a uncharged paris shot, seems balance to me right?

Euphona's shotgun mode can 1 shot even overshielded tanks in close range, hitscan too. Don't forget is a secondary weapon aswell.  

[BrokenBullet]

Just ignore this post, didn't realise this is for conclave. My apologies.

Spoiler

Euphona Prime is locked behind a mastery rank wall anyways. For it being a powerful weapon, it is only for mastery rank +14. It's stats are justifiiable  for being literally the weapon at the highest mastery rank.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by BrokenBullet
Misunderstanding

[Lavenza]

Just now, BrokenBullet said:

Euphona Prime is locked behind a mastery rank wall anyways. For it being a powerful weapon, it is only for mastery rank +14. It's stats are justifiiable for being literally the weapon at the highest mastery rank.

Reminder, you're in a conclave feedback thread. And thats like saying a 1 shot 1 kill viper is balanced because is locked behind for MR30s only.

[SevenLetterKWord]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

I'm pretty sure the Tigris Prime two shots, while the buck 3 shots.
The Euphona has travel time so of course it's gonna be powerful(but I do admit it's hella strong in conclave).

The Euphona Prime's primary fire will kill most frames in two shots, not three.
And travel time on the primary fire does not justify this kind of raw power overall.

24 minutes ago, dstrawberrygirl said:

It's quite glorious, and maybe yeh if it's strong at conclave then it could do with a look, but I think you're overstating it for PvE.

I think it's quite clear that I'm not making any statements concerning PvE.

Edited June 6, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord
Removed response to since-corrected content.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

38 minutes ago, IMainFrost said:

Reminder, you're in a conclave feedback thread. And thats like saying a 1 shot 1 kill viper is balanced because is locked behind for MR30s only.

Forget the Tigris part. I'm here thinking you're partially talking about PvE.

[Perhelion]

In 90% of cases Euphona Prime kills my over-shield excal prime with one shoot in very close range. At the moment for me it's the most annoying weapon in conclave. I don't like it so much that I even haven't try it on my own XD If somebody ask me what should be nerfed in conclave than for me answer is obvious - Euphonia Prime. 

It's ridiculous situation when you respawn with  overshields and die in few seconds as you meet around the corner opponent who kills you with one bullet. Whole action takes just a fraction of a second. 

[ReChicken95]

You forgot to consider falloff. The rof might be a little high but the OHK potential is ok, it requires an specific playstyle that can be easily countered by being 10+ meters from the euphona ( primary lode is ok, it has poor accuracy and travel time ). It doesnt need a big nerf, plus there arent that many players using it anyways ( hard to use ).

[TH1S4L14S1SN074V41l4Bl3]

1 hour ago, ReChicken95 said:

You forgot to consider falloff.

Closing gaps is not hard and it never was. Balancing 1HK weapons around "but it has 0 damage at 12 meters" is a bad idea.

They either have to change the way it works in PvP(less falloff/fire rate) or nerf the max ammo & ammo clip to something like 3+6  
Nerfing the damage below 1 shot threshold on mediums without altering anything else will just make it worthless

[SevenLetterKWord]

4 hours ago, ReChicken95 said:

You forgot to consider falloff. The rof might be a little high but the OHK potential is ok, it requires an specific playstyle that can be easily countered by being 10+ meters from the euphona ( primary lode is ok, it has poor accuracy and travel time ). It doesnt need a big nerf, plus there arent that many players using it anyways ( hard to use ).

Patent nonsense.
The instakill potential is far too great and far too easily achieved.

Do not try to tell me the Euphona Prime is "hard to use".
The Tonkor is "hard to use". The Opticor is "hard to use". The Euphona? I could train a monkey to get kills with the Euphona.
The only reason there aren't more players abusing the Euphona is because the weapon happens to be difficult to acquire in PvE.

Do not try to tell me that I "forgot to consider falloff".
You will recall that I specifically noted that the Tigris series has "superior performance at range".
You will also recall that I explained how this marginal superiority quickly becomes meaningless when considering the Euphona's ridiculous damage output.

Do not try to tell me that the "primary lode is ok, it has poor accuracy and travel time".
The primary fire has an accuracy of 100. It is literally impossible to get more accurate than that.
Furthermore, a slug from the Euphona travels 20% faster than a fully charged Paris arrow.

The Euphona Prime's primary fire should be nerfed to require three shots to kill on medium frames (or about -20% damage).
The Euphona Prime's secondary fire should be nerfed to require two shots to kill on medium frames (or about -33% damage).

[ReChicken95]

2 hours ago, TH1S4L14S1SN074V41l4Bl3 said:

Closing gaps is not hard and it never was. Balancing 1HK weapons around "but it has 0 damage at 12 meters" is a bad idea.

They either have to change the way it works in PvP(less falloff/fire rate) or nerf the max ammo & ammo clip to something like 3+6  
Nerfing the damage below 1 shot threshold on mediums without altering anything else will just make it worthless

Yep I agree, if they nerf the damage the weapon would be worthless.

6 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Patent nonsense.
The instakill potential is far too great and far too easily achieved.

Do not try to tell me the Euphona Prime is "hard to use".
The Tonkor is "hard to use". The Opticor is "hard to use". The Euphona? I could train a monkey to get kills with the Euphona.
The only reason there aren't more players abusing the Euphona is because the weapon happens to be difficult to acquire in PvE.

Do not try to tell me that I "forgot to consider falloff".
You will recall that I specifically noted that the Tigris series has "superior performance at range".
You will also recall that I explained how this marginal superiority quickly becomes meaningless when considering the Euphona's ridiculous damage output.

Do not try to tell me that the "primary lode is ok, it has poor accuracy and travel time".
The primary fire has an accuracy of 100. It is literally impossible to get more accurate than that.
Furthermore, a slug from the Euphona travels 20% faster than a fully charged Paris arrow.

The Euphona Prime's primary fire should be nerfed to require three shots to kill on medium frames (or about -20% damage).
The Euphona Prime's secondary fire should be nerfed to require two shots to kill on medium frames (or about -33% damage).

So you want it to be a lex? There arent many people complaining about it, maybe you have a grudge against it and thats all.

[Dzecar]

51 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

The only reason there aren't more players abusing the Euphona is because the weapon happens to be difficult to acquire in PvE.

I think you're overestimating how hard it is to get

 

not hard at all if you ask me

Also tigris can fire 3 shots(yep, it can utilize 1 extra round without any downside thanks to autoreload mods) in an instant without any downtime between those 3 shots if you bind it to mwheelup(down) or use a macro. Only valkyr can survive that if she casts hysteria on full health AND you dont land a headshot.

51 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

The primary fire has an accuracy of 100. It is literally impossible to get more accurate than that.

Thats just not true. It's listed as 100 but is nowhere near pinpoint. You clearly never used it without slide mod + ADS(or at all ever) because on the move without either of these it will never hit where you're aiming

51 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Furthermore, a slug from the Euphona travels 20% faster than a fully charged Paris arrow.

So what? You won't hit anything beyond 20 meters without taking your time to aim the shot due to heavy arc. Might aswell switch to a different weapon.

I'm not saying the alt fire doesn't need a BIG tonedown on it's performance, but please cease from giving balance suggestions based on JUST stats if you never bothered to try and use something yourself

Edited June 10, 2017 by Dzecar

[Lavenza]

Just now, Dzecar said:

I think you're overestimating how hard it is to get

  Hide contents

 

not hard at all if you ask me

Also tigris can fire 3 shots(yep, it can utilize 1 extra round without any downside thanks to autoreload mods) in an instant without any downtime between those 3 shots if you bind it to mwheelup(down) or use a macro. Only valkyr can survive that if she casts hysteria on full health AND you dont land a headshot.

Thats just not true. It's listed as 100 but is nowhere near pinpoint. You clearly never used it without slide mod + ADS(or at all ever) because on the move without either of these it will never hit where you're aiming

So what? You won't hit anything beyond 20 meters without taking your time to aim the shot due to heavy ark. Might aswell switch to a different weapon.

I'm not saying the alt fire doesn't need a BIG tonedown on it's performance, but please cease from giving balance suggestions based on JUST stats if you never bothered to try and use something yourself

 

Reminder, euphona prime is MR locked. 

[SevenLetterKWord]

51 minutes ago, Dzecar said:

I think you're overestimating how hard it is to get

Sure, the pieces are cheap.
Can you also buy Mastery Rank 14 with 44 plat?

51 minutes ago, Dzecar said:

Also tigris can fire 3 shots(yep, it can utilize 1 extra round without any downside thanks to autoreload mods)

"Without any downside"?
How about the downside of - instead of being able to reload and fire again in 1.5-1.8s - having to to swap weapons, wait ~5s for holstered reload, and then swap weapons back?

Quote

Thats just not true. It's listed as 100 but is nowhere near pinpoint. You clearly never used it without slide mod + ADS(or at all ever) because on the move without either of these it will never hit where you're aiming

So what? You won't hit anything beyond 20 meters without taking your time to aim the shot due to heavy arc. Might aswell switch to a different weapon.

Boy, that sure looks like a lot further than "20 meters" to me.

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord
Accidental Ctrl+Enter

[Dzecar]

22 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

"Without any downside"?

Tigris is situational weapon at best better used for ambushing or occasional backstabs. It feels useless in general compared to the Strun series.

22 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

snip

Did you just "tested" non-ADS moving accuracy while staying on the spot ADS shooting a wall?

Edited June 10, 2017 by Dzecar

[SevenLetterKWord]

On 6/10/2017 at 2:25 AM, Dzecar said:

Tigris is situational weapon at best better used for ambushing or occasional backstabs. It feels useless in general compared to the Strun series.

This is going dangerously far off-topic.

Quote

Did you just "tested" non-ADS moving accuracy staying on the spot ADS shooting a wall?

First of all, movement has no influence on a weapon's accuracy in Warframe.
Movement only affects human accuracy in that your aim is probably worse when you're moving at high speeds.

Secondly, are you attempting to argue that aiming down sights is some sort of drawback of the Euphona Prime?
Aiming down sights is literally as easy as pressing a button. It's easier than one-two-three. I don't even need to train the monkey for this one.

---

Spoiler

On 7/12/2017 at 8:49 PM, (Xbox One)Orcus Imperium said:

i don't even play pvp in this game often(i may have....4 hours in it.....8 tops.) and even i can say that a side arm should never out perform a primary in PVP.

5 hours ago, murdello said:

nice nekro

Smh, don't re-necro a thread just to comment on a previous necro.

To clarify, the Euphona Prime has since been nerfed, losing 38% damage on the primary fire and 11% damage on the secondary fire.
Additionally, it is no longer able to be modded with Blind Shot, which had previously been giving the alternate fire 40% additional range.
Finally, all weapons with base magazine size 5 or lower, the Euphona Prime included, are no longer able to equip mods changing the magazine cap.

I would have preferred a more significant damage nerf to the alternate fire in lieu of the crippling nerf to the primary fire.
Still, these changes have proven to be effective. The Euphona Prime remains incredibly powerful, but is no longer oppressive.

Edited July 15, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord