Lan Gaming

[RaianStar]

Hey all,

 

I really like that you accommodate for players like me bad by implementing a workaround for our slow, unstable internet connections by only connecting for the purpose of transferring the relevant information when necessary.  (Maybe a retry connecting button would be nice for after games?).

 

That function is great and will many more people worldwide to enjoy this wonderful game.

 

What I would like to see next, is the same system, but as an 'offline' (in the sense that solo is 'offline') mode where I can play with my friends in the same room, without our crappy connection (crappy squared...) getting in the way of the game being awesome.

 

Essentially it would be just a multiplayer version of the current 'Solo' mode (ironic that solo mode is to be my multiplayer salvation eh...).

 

This would also open the door for a lot more people to have LAN parties if they so choose.  Playing computer games together with, or in the presence of friends is great fun ^^

 

Please don't post messages telling me to get a better web connection, that simply isn't possible for a lot of people worldwide.  Probably not a majority, but  there is a gaming hungry niche that feels a bit left out you know?

 

RaianStar

[iamSippyCup]

Could be done, probably won't be done any time soon though. As you put it, you guys are part of a niche.

[LongDraw]

So basically... you're asking for them to make the game LAN party friendly?  Or you could get better internet hehe

[Tsukinoki]

I dont see too much of an issue implementing it.

What I would see the general flow of the game would be:

You sign into warframe like normal and then switch from online/private/solo to "LAN".

You then only see the games on your LAN and can join each other and use the LAN connection to play.

The game status, and everything else still gets to the servers and is still verified by them, to avoid hacking/cheating/whatever.

The only communications with DE's servers is checking for Alert missions and buying stuff from the marketplace as well as uploading stats and all the account stuff, such as what mods you picked up, daily revives remaining, affinity levels for weapons/frames and your mastery levels and xp.

None of the match making or connections occur online, that's all LAN stuff.

This would make it LAN compatible and shouldn't be too hard for DE to code in. The biggest thing they would be coding is making it detect only local addresses as well as handle all of the match stuff through those local addresses.

I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented in the game and it would be a lot better for a lot of people in various world regions.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[RaianStar]

Could be done, probably won't be done any time soon though. As you put it, you guys are part of a niche.

I'm more than willing to accept this being the case.  I really hope that this feature has a place on their roadmap :)

 

So basically... you're asking for them to make the game LAN party friendly?  Or you could get better internet hehe

oi cheeky :p

 

I dont see too much of an issue implementing it.

What I would see the general flow of the game would be:

You sign into warframe like normal and then switch from online/private/solo to "LAN".

You then only see the games on your LAN and can join each other and use the LAN connection to play.

The game status, and everything else still gets to the servers and is still verified by them, to avoid hacking/cheating/whatever.

The only communications with DE's servers is checking for Alert missions and buying stuff from the marketplace as well as uploading stats and all the account stuff, such as what mods you picked up, daily revives remaining, affinity levels for weapons/frames and your mastery levels and xp.

None of the match making or connections occur online, that's all LAN stuff.

This would make it LAN compatible and shouldn't be too hard for DE to code in. The biggest thing they would be coding is making it detect only local addresses as well as handle all of the match stuff through those local addresses.

I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented in the game and it would be a lot better for a lot of people in various world regions.

Exactly my thinking!  Fingers crossed that this becomes a thing :)

[Ketec]

Lan games cant be validated online - it would open up sooo many hackign options, injecting data to the DE servers (like adding plat, money, resources.. or any item you want).

 

Most if the lag comes due to the insane routing the data talkes across the world .... it doesnt use much bandwidth at all when i measured.

 

Solo mode is still connected to the DE servers.

Perhaps a VPN integration could help with the lag? It would help against any kind of ISP peer2peer connection throttling (tho needs extra computing power).

[RaianStar]

Lan games cant be validated online - it would open up sooo many hackign options, injecting data to the DE servers (like adding plat, money, resources.. or any item you want).

 

Most if the lag comes due to the insane routing the data talkes across the world .... it doesnt use much bandwidth at all when i measured.

 

Solo mode is still connected to the DE servers.

Perhaps a VPN integration could help with the lag? It would help against any kind of ISP peer2peer connection throttling (tho needs extra computing power).

I didn't realise there would be security issues... I figured it would be like running Solo mode but on more machines...

[Tsukinoki]

@Ketec

The client itself does have measures to prevent its data from being messed with while the game is in play, and does have a blacklist of programs that will cause an account ban if they are detected running.

Further, they can implement the same checks that they do to a solo match to the LAN gaming.

As they would still need to log in and such, the host of the LAN game can handle checking in and verifying the information with DE servers as necessary, the clients would need to pass on their checks to the host so that it can pass it onto DE and then return the response.

They can still play 100% local connection with only the host needing to communicate to DE.

That would avoid a majority of the issues that you brought up and wouldn't be that hard to implement.

Further, since nearly all of the lag is from the peers communicating to each other, the communications with DE servers is rather small, all of them can still verify everything with DE servers, but since the main game is P2P they can still play the game through the local connections at a much better speed and stability.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[RaianStar]

@KetecThe client itself does have measures to prevent its data from being messed with while the game is in play, and does have a blacklist of programs that will cause an account ban if they are detected running.Further, they can implement the same checks that they do to a solo match to the LAN gaming.As they would still need to log in and such, the host of the LAN game can handle checking in and verifying the information with DE servers as necessary, the clients would need to pass on their checks to the host so that it can pass it onto DE and then return the response.They can still play 100% local connection with only the host needing to communicate to DE.That would avoid a majority of the issues that you brought up and wouldn't be that hard to implement.

Thanks for your input. I'm not quite as security savvy as you two but this seems legit.

I do hope that this gets implemented at some point :)

It would be nice to say, log in using crappy phone Internet tethering and still be able to fully enjoy the game with friends :)

[Tsukinoki]

@RaianStar

That should be fully possible.

The verification information that is sent is rather light weight for the most part, so it should be able to have the only communication to DE being the verification, which could be handled by the host alone, while the actual gameplay happens purely through the local connections.

The only thing that this may cause, and it wouldn't be anything that would get too annoying (except for ammo maybe) is that there might be a small bit of lag between walking over an item and picking it up due to how the verification would have to be handled differently and relayed, but that shouldn't be too annoying or cause any real issues with gameplay.

Of course, all of this is assuming that there is a lot of stringent verification of pickups and stuff with DE, which may not be the case at all. I don't know all of the information that is transmitted between the client and DE mid game. It could be that the verification on DEs side waits till mission complete, which means that the issue that I noted above would never occur and would be even easier for DE to implement.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Trentendegreth]

the problem i see Tsukinoki, and this could be my mistake, but if the host still had to upload all that data to the servers wouldnt that, still be cramming a watermellon thrue a lemon issue? or am i misjudging the size of the packets being sent between the server and the "host of the lan"? if i am than i think your method would be the most efficiant, as its only one set of packets being sent to DE servers instead of <=4. I realy do think that this should be added, it showes love for the comunity (not that there lacking in the love).

[Xylia]

All they'd have to do is make the game use LAN whenever possible, if it sees that squadmates are on the same LAN. Perhaps when inviting someone into your squad, it could check to see if they're on the LAN?

 

Many programs can already auto detect peers on the LAN (Blizzard Updater does this, though it is unreliable at best. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't) so I don't see why a P2P game can't detect people on a LAN.

[Xylia]

the problem i see Tsukinoki, and this could be my mistake, but if the host still had to upload all that data to the servers wouldnt that, still be cramming a watermellon thrue a lemon issue? or am i misjudging the size of the packets being sent between the server and the "host of the lan"? if i am than i think your method would be the most efficiant, as its only one set of packets being sent to DE servers instead of <=4. I realy do think that this should be added, it showes love for the comunity (not that there lacking in the love).

 

Most LANs are 100Mbps.

 

It takes 2Mbps to reliably host a 4-person game.

[RaianStar]

@RaianStarThat should be fully possible.The verification information that is sent is rather light weight for the most part, so it should be able to have the only communication to DE being the verification, which could be handled by the host alone, while the actual gameplay happens purely through the local connections.The only thing that this may cause, and it wouldn't be anything that would get too annoying (except for ammo maybe) is that there might be a small bit of lag between walking over an item and picking it up due to how the verification would have to be handled differently and relayed, but that shouldn't be too annoying or cause any real issues with gameplay.Of course, all of this is assuming that there is a lot of stringent verification of pickups and stuff with DE, which may not be the case at all. I don't know all of the information that is transmitted between the client and DE mid game. It could be that the verification on DEs side waits till mission complete, which means that the issue that I noted above would never occur and would be even easier for DE to implement.

I'm getting pretty pumped for this! The easier it is to implement, the more likely it is to be included sooner (if at all). Thank you :)

[Xylia]

I'm getting pretty pumped for this! The easier it is to implement, the more likely it is to be included sooner (if at all). Thank you :)

 

Has anyone tested this? How do we know it doesn't already do this? OR is it like the Blizzard Updater in that it will SOMETIMES see people on the same LAN and sometimes not?

 

There'd be an easy way to check -- if someone has a crappy net connection but a decent LAN, do a Private game and invite the LAN person to your squad and see what happens.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Xylia

[Trentendegreth]

Thank you Xylia that was the information i was lacking, depending on how often they verify and when, i dont see why not, it would still be rugh on a dial up connection, but possible, (pardon my spelling errors i just woke up)

 

Edit: i dont beleve it works or is already implemented, i have a friend that plays at my house, he has dialup there, and as we attempted to play at his house the lag was horrible, but at mine its fine. though i do think that the matchmaking in this instance makes the party leader "host"

Edited August 9, 2013 by Trentendegreth

[Tsukinoki]

@Trentendegreth

It depends on how much information is really sent.

I dont know DEs netcode but I see two ways that they verify pickups and items gained and such:

1) As you pick up the item (which does not seem likely at all seeing as game crashes and quits cause you to lose everything(and if you have used a revive and the game crashes before the mission completes that revive comes back))

2) When the mission is complete it sends information to the servers saying you got a list of X pickups, affinity, and everything else (which is far more likely)

In either case most of the processing of affinity, death of enemies, ai and map generation is all handled by the clients as this is a P2P game. That means that the majority of the information is only handled between the peers. The information being sent to DEs servers is rather light weight, and its basically revives remaining, items gained, affinity gained and so on (as well as all shop transactions). That can all be compressed fairly easily into small objects and packets meaning that it shouldn't take that much bandwidth.

The only really noticeable effect that I can see happening is that when the mission completes it takes longer to go to the results screen where it shows the mission stats. And even then it wouldn't take that long to do.

Even if they still need each client to send its own information, instead of the host sending everyones, it would be the same relatively small amount of information, just over 4 streams instead of 1 and there really wouldn't be a difference. The gameplay would still be handled over the local connections.

[Xylia]

So it sounds like all they need to do is make it so that when you invite someone to your squad, it checks to see if they're on a local LAN and forms the connection over LAN instead of the Internet.

 

That's all they'd have to do, I'd think. Let Warframe listen on the LAN as well as the Internet.

 

Once they did that, then all you'd do is make a Private game, invite your friends (the game could give you a special little symbol to indicate the game knows that person is recognized as being on the LAN).

 

Or you could ALSO do it with Online games -- start an Online game, invite your friend, the game sees they are on the LAN and makes a LAN connection to them, and then you get 2 random PUGs from the internet. Warframe shares the data between you and your friend via the LAN; the PUGs get their data sent over the internet.

 

Don't see why it wouldn't work.

[Trentendegreth]

@Tsukinoki
That sounds about right, and just to play devels advocit here, lets say i have 256 modem (shudders, not that im saying this particular bandwith will work just an example,) in sending the data to DE which would be the best method of handleing the transfer? one or sevral packet streams? just the host or all clients? (my networking is a bit rusty, been a few years.

[Tsukinoki]

@Trentendegreth

If all you have is a 256 then a single stream would be a better option, because at that low of throughput the overhead of handling multiple concurrent streams would slow down the overall connection too much, though to be completely honest I doubt it would would slow it down much more than having a single larger stream and then the host having to be the relay in the communications. It would honestly require a bit of exploritory testing though.

@Xylia

Having it auto detect would by far be the best option, and could open up a few more options, such as playing over a VPN like Hamachi instead of just LAN.