Sword Alone needs some love

[Murph_HKM]

Hello Warframe PvP community! It has been a long while since I've played, but after a few days of coming back to the game, I have to report that I am overall happy with the current state of melee in Conclave. However, as a player who enjoys going at it Sword Alone, I do think it is not in a good state.

Let it be known that I have done a fair bit of Conclave; certainly not the most, but as an almost exclusive melee player I am aware of many of the issues that plagued "competitive" play when it came to melee. I am NOT advocating for the return of early Conclave melee status, which included things such as:

- Coptering into players for instagib damage

- Infinite Stunlock/Knockdown from powerful melee weapons

- Enormous Jat Kittag slam attacks with knockdowns

- Martial magnetism and the inherent "lock on" that was present whenever melee combat would be engaged

The extra mobility gained does not give quite enough benefit; I'd suggest a damage buff of 15-25% when you're "wielding" your melee weapon (so as to give an advantage over those using quick melee). Also, melee seems to have a dreadful habit of animation locking the player who is performing it. That is to say, players effectively get "stuck" swinging their weapons and cannot cancel the animation to avoid damage.

I don't see any particular reason why this should be; with our guns, we are able to quite easily animation cancel out on reloads and such to save our lives. Letting us either bullet jump or roll out of the middle of combos would be a welcome addition I believe.

I am happy that melee is not a spammable, abusable mechanic as it has been in the past. However, to compete against (or at least have the CHANCE to compete against) some of the remarkably talented gunplayers this community possesses, these buffs would go a long way.

Thank you for reading!

[Murph_HKM]

Hello Warframe PvP community! It has been a long while since I've played, but after a few days of coming back to the game, I have to report that I am overall happy with the current state of melee in Conclave. However, as a player who enjoys going at it Sword Alone, I do think it is not in a good state.

Let it be known that I have done a fair bit of Conclave; certainly not the most, but as an almost exclusive melee player I am aware of many of the issues that plagued "competitive" play when it came to melee. I am NOT advocating for the return of early Conclave melee status, which included things such as:

- Coptering into players for instagib damage

- Infinite Stunlock/Knockdown from powerful melee weapons

- Enormous Jat Kittag slam attacks with knockdowns

- Martial magnetism and the inherent "lock on" that was present whenever melee combat would be engaged

The extra mobility gained does not give quite enough benefit; I'd suggest a damage buff of 15-25% when you're "wielding" your melee weapon (so as to give an advantage over those using quick melee). Also, melee seems to have a dreadful habit of animation locking the player who is performing it. That is to say, players effectively get "stuck" swinging their weapons and cannot cancel the animation to avoid damage.

I don't see any particular reason why this should be; with our guns, we are able to quite easily animation cancel out on reloads and such to save our lives. Letting us either bullet jump or roll out of the middle of combos would be a welcome addition I believe.

I am happy that melee is not a spammable, abusable mechanic as it has been in the past. However, to compete against (or at least have the CHANCE to compete against) some of the remarkably talented gunplayers this community possesses, these buffs would go a long way.

Thank you for reading!

[Stormdragon]

11 minutes ago, Murph_HKM said:

I'd suggest a damage buff of 15-25% when you're "wielding" your melee weapon (so as to give an advantage over those using quick melee).

I see your point, however, to avoid making melee overpowered I'd suggest instead making the channeling multiplier not to apply passively on quick melee as it currently does. I'd also suggest removing off-hand slam knockdowns or at least bringing them back to their state before U21 (non existant except for fists and sparring weapons due to their short attack range)

[Scarecrow]

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

The extra mobility gained does not give quite enough benefit; I'd suggest a damage buff of 15-25% when you're "wielding" your melee weapon (so as to give an advantage over those using quick melee). Also, melee seems to have a dreadful habit of animation locking the player who is performing it. That is to say, players effectively get "stuck" swinging their weapons and cannot cancel the animation to avoid damage.

I don't see any particular reason why this should be; with our guns, we are able to quite easily animation cancel out on reloads and such to save our lives. Letting us either bullet jump or roll out of the middle of combos would be a welcome addition I believe.

 

All melee received a blanket damage buff across the board, due to channeling being deemed obsolete on weapons, excluding the channel blocking mechanics. Another damage buff of a very harsh 25% when you're simply wielding your melee weapon instead of using it as quick melee would be ridiculous. Using your melee stanced is already the option all dedicated melee players would take, due to stances being usually more agile and easier to close gaps with. They also receive insane damage multipliers on their combos and innate impairing/knockdowns. 

Off-hand knockdowns were also re-introduced with U21, which was one of the main advantages and reasons you would have your melee out instead of gunplay. This was a poor design choice and kills the motivation to even have your melee out for knockdown purposes, further encouraging quick melee. 

Sword Alone is a perfectly okay mod, and adds the extra help with gap closing that melee desperately requires. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Scarecrow

[Nazrethim]

16 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

I see your point, however, to avoid making melee overpowered I'd suggest instead making the channeling multiplier not to apply passively on quick melee as it currently does. I'd also suggest removing off-hand slam knockdowns or at least bringing them back to their state before U21 (non existant except for fists and sparring weapons due to their short attack range)

Pretty much this.

[Murph_HKM]

17 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

I see your point, however, to avoid making melee overpowered I'd suggest instead making the channeling multiplier not to apply passively on quick melee as it currently does. I'd also suggest removing off-hand slam knockdowns or at least bringing them back to their state before U21 (non existant except for fists and sparring weapons due to their short attack range)

 

- Sounds great to me!

9 hours ago, Scarecrow said:

All melee received a blanket damage buff across the board, due to channeling being deemed obsolete on weapons, excluding the channel blocking mechanics. Another damage buff of a very harsh 25% when you're simply wielding your melee weapon instead of using it as quick melee would be ridiculous. Using your melee stanced is already the option all dedicated melee players would take, due to stances being usually more agile and easier to close gaps with. They also receive insane damage multipliers on their combos and innate impairing/knockdowns. 

Off-hand knockdowns were also re-introduced with U21, which was one of the main advantages and reasons you would have your melee out instead of gunplay. This was a poor design choice and kills the motivation to even have your melee out for knockdown purposes, further encouraging quick melee. 

Sword Alone is a perfectly okay mod, and adds the extra help with gap closing that melee desperately requires. 

1) So channeling now while "wielding" your melee weapon has no benefit? You're simply eating your own energy for nothing? I suppose that'd explain why I feel like I don't hit much harder. Also, I don't think a 15-25% buff when wielding your weapon is ridiculous by any stretch of the word. What is ridiculous is getting animation locked on the ground as soon as you even begin a combo, and any decent player simply bullet jumps over you and shoots you to death while you're animation locked in a combo hitting nothing. So,maybe implement one or the other, but you either need to remove the animation lock of combos or buff the damage.

2) Yeah, this pretty much has been my experience. The people I do manage to catch in a bad spot manage to turn the tables almost instantly. Usually goes as follows:

- Finally catch player on ground while reloading

- Player bullet jumps and quick slams while I'm stuck in combo

- Get knocked down

- Player either continues to hammer melee or finishes reload

- I get rekt

[Witchydragon]

4 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

1) So channeling now while "wielding" your melee weapon has no benefit? You're simply eating your own energy for nothing? I suppose that'd explain why I feel like I don't hit much harder.

I'm pretty sure it consumes no energy unless you block. 

 

5 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

Also, I don't think a 15-25% buff when wielding your weapon is ridiculous by any stretch of the word. 

25% more damage is quite a lot. It may not be that way in PvE, but in PvP it is an unnecessary power increase.

5 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

What is ridiculous is getting animation locked on the ground as soon as you even begin a combo, and any decent player simply bullet jumps over you and shoots you to death while you're animation locked in a combo hitting nothing.

Melee combos are already quite potent, dealing knockdowns and impairs with significant gap closing. You're not supposed to be able to run straight at a guy with melee and be able to '1v1' him. Melee fills a strong ambush niche (and also a noob destroyer to an extent); you are supposed to use it when you've baited players into controlled territory, and time the combos to hit them then.

Also, airborne players are not really as hard to hit as most people make them out to be. Sure, someone who knows what they're doing and is jumping off walls and never hitting the ground is not going to be hit by a melee combo, but anyone who thinks a few jumps is enough to evade any decently skilled player with melee has not seen people using melee seriously. It's possible to time and aim melee combos towards where a player will eventually land if they manage their maneuvers poorly, which most players tend to do. 

Mind you that this is not usually the most effective way of getting frags, but it's useful when you've run out of ammo or are secure in the situation. 

Melee can be extremely potent as an ambushing tool because of it's animation lock, as it leaves the player vulnerable. Being able to instantly cancel all melee attacks would require them to be weaker. Weaker melee weapons with substandard melee mechanics would turn them into utility only. 

 

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

 

- Sounds great to me!

1) So channeling now while "wielding" your melee weapon has no benefit? You're simply eating your own energy for nothing? I suppose that'd explain why I feel like I don't hit much harder. Also, I don't think a 15-25% buff when wielding your weapon is ridiculous by any stretch of the word. What is ridiculous is getting animation locked on the ground as soon as you even begin a combo, and any decent player simply bullet jumps over you and shoots you to death while you're animation locked in a combo hitting nothing. So,maybe implement one or the other, but you either need to remove the animation lock of combos or buff the damage.

DE just set the Channeling multiplier to 1x (that is, deals as much damage as an unchanneled hit) and the energy cost to 0. Channel Blocking still works, but it's usually not worth using unless you use a frame with pointless abilities.

You need to learn to set up ambushes. Lure enemies into secluded spaces where their mobility means little. Or learn to predict where they will land and combo accordingly. Also, if you disable the "Melee syncs with camera" option you can steer combo animations to great effect.

5 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

2) Yeah, this pretty much has been my experience. The people I do manage to catch in a bad spot manage to turn the tables almost instantly. Usually goes as follows:

- Finally catch player on ground while reloading

- Player bullet jumps and quick slams while I'm stuck in combo

- Get knocked down

- Player either continues to hammer melee or finishes reload

- I get rekt

Removing the knockdown and halving quickmelee damage would solve all that in a single swipe.

[SevenLetterKWord]

On 7/23/2017 at 7:59 PM, Murph_HKM said:

However, as a player who enjoys going at it Sword Alone, I do think it is not in a good state.

Sword Alone is a PvE gimmick for role-players.

For PvP, equipping melee can be very potent in certain situations, but to always have your melee equipped is foolish.
Sword Alone is not a viable strategy in Conclave... nor should it be.

Given the present implementation of melee, it would be wrong to empower Sword Alone playstyles.

First of all, players should not be encouraged to neglect two of their three weapon slots.
More importantly, the present implementation of equipped melee is ground-locked and mechanically crude.
In light of these factors, which serve to lower the influence of skill, Sword Alone has no business being competitive.

Before Sword Alone can be justifiably made viable, a great deal of feature development and polishing must occur to raise the skill ceiling of melee combat.
This includes: providing more melee possibilities while airborne, adding more dual-wield options (along with a meaningful downside for dual-wielding), removing the arbitrary "melee cooldown" after aerial melee, reworking wall attacks to be tactically useful, allowing players to roll out of animations, and buffing channeled blocking but requiring players to aim the reflected damage.

Melee weapons don't need to be buffed. Instead, the realm of melee mechanics should be expanded to reward skilled play.

Edited July 25, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Sword Alone is a PvE gimmick for role-players.

For PvP, equipping melee can be very potent in certain situations, but to always have your melee equipped is foolish.
Sword Alone is not a viable strategy in Conclave... nor should it be.

Given the present implementation of melee, it would be wrong to empower Sword Alone playstyles.

First of all, players should not be encouraged to neglect two of their three weapon slots.
More importantly, the present implementation of equipped melee is ground-locked and mechanically crude.
In light of these factors, which serve to lower the influence of skill, Sword Alone has no business being competitive.

Before Sword Alone can be justifiably made viable, a great deal of feature development and polishing must occur to raise the skill ceiling of melee combat.
This includes: providing more melee possibilities while airborne, adding more dual-wield options (along with a meaningful downside for dual-wielding), removing the arbitrary "melee cooldown" after aerial melee, reworking wall attacks to be tactically useful, allowing players to roll out of animations, and buffing channeled blocking but requiring players to aim the reflected damage.

Melee weapons don't need to be buffed. Instead, the realm of melee mechanics should be expanded to reward skilled play.

Or in short terms: "Melee needs a rework, not a buff"

Though I disagree, Melee should be equally competitive to running with a gun. Some Primaries or Secondaries allow the user to go with it and ignore the other two slots entirely, only ammo limits this to some extent.

[Witchydragon]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Though I disagree, Melee should be equally competitive to running with a gun. Some Primaries or Secondaries allow the user to go with it and ignore the other two slots entirely, only ammo limits this to some extent.

Nonsense. 

By having a melee, you don't have to forgo the use of a gun entirely. Just like when using a gun, you don't have to ignore your melee weapon. 

Sure, I could use only a lex, or only a strun, or only a machete, but why would I when I could use all 3 for differing situations? What about utilizing the different damage types and their relative potency against shields/armor? 

Melee should be balanced to be as effective as guns when they reward mechanical skill the same way guns do. Until then, they should not be given any additional power. 

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Nonsense. 

By having a melee, you don't have to forgo the use of a gun entirely. Just like when using a gun, you don't have to ignore your melee weapon. 

Sure, I could use only a lex, or only a strun, or only a machete, but why would I when I could use all 3 for differing situations? What about utilizing the different damage types and their relative potency against shields/armor? 

Melee should be balanced to be as effective as guns when they reward mechanical skill the same way guns do. Until then, they should not be given any additional power. 

I don't claim melee needs more power. Quickmelee actually needs to be toned down. The passive channeling damage bonus should be applied only when the weapon is equiped, and quickmelee shouldn't have access to Knockdown. Other than that, Melee is in a good spot right now.

[Naqel]

On 7/24/2017 at 4:59 AM, Murph_HKM said:

I don't see any particular reason why this should be; with our guns, we are able to quite easily animation cancel out on reloads and such to save our lives. Letting us either bullet jump or roll out of the middle of combos would be a welcome addition I believe.

The reason is that they went with an over designed canned-combo-garbage system instead of one where you just swing your weapon once and regain the freedom to repeat or move on.

Add to those S#&$ty controls the general speed at which players can move(which is in no way conducive to having a proper fight), and you have a recipe for how not to do melee in videogames.