Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering, Action Disruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool. Please turn it down.

[MJ12]

How?

You several folks here seem to have trouble doing so. Heh......

Ah yes, the last resort argument of the terrible person. "YOU MUST NOT BE GOOD AT THIS GAME!"

I get stunlocked and killed when I end up in a corner or when I decide to try to figure out how to melee Chargers because I want to see if there's some kind of trick to it. Or when an Ancient shows up behind me due to all the Chargers blocking my vision and sends me on my &#!. This isn't 'having trouble doing so'. This is 'Chargers are still bullsh**t'. Because there's no skill that lets you see behind you, and even a single Charger stun means all the Runners/Chargers catch up to me and now I'm dead.

Level 30 frames taking on level 10 Chargers are at significant risk of death due to this mechanic and how they eat 60+ shields/health per attack and attack twice a second. Sure, Infested were too easy before but at least it was fun. They were the breather level, something you fired up when you had ten minutes to burn and wanted to get a hundred or so kills. Breather levels have an important place in games, just as much as challenge.

1. Running away is just a tactic mentioned that, yes like i said, makes the battle easier than running at them and swinging.

And it shouldn't be. Infested should punish being a coward. Grineer do it via grenades, Corpus do it via Mine Ospreys and grenades, and the Infested show up and they decide to do the exact opposite. You know what the absolute worst kind of game mechanic is? One which specifically forces you to unlearn everyone else

2. How is it unfun to successfully kill enemies?

3. How does it break the pace? You are continuing to kill things?

If you don't understand how 'running away from enemies like a coward' breaks the pace of a game that's about being aggressive to the point where DE has come out and said 'we don't want to put in a cover system because that would break the flow' I really can't help you. At all. Why do I play Warframe instead of say, ME3 Multiplayer? Because it rewards aggression rather than hiding, running away, and kiting. If you use powers and aren't massively outleveled by the enemies you can aggressively move forward and use melee heavily on Corpus and Grineer. You could do that with Infested. That was actually fun. Now you can't. Because whoever put in Chargers doesn't understand that half the draw of Warframe has been that melee is a viable, useful option for every class. This weakens massively in the lategame due to issues about dying too fast and melee damage simply not keeping up with ranged damage (the breakpoint when you can no longer kill standard enemies with a single charge attack is a pretty huge shift) but that's what was fun.

Chargers are not fun. They're all bullsh**t of ME3MP Husks/Abominations with none of the saving graces (those being the absolute least durable enemies period and dying really fast even in Gold).

4. How does this game heavily reward aggression? The fact that i can kill things by giving myself room while you are stunlock shows the opposite.

The total lack of a cover system, the Gorgon's balance point being "it takes time to spin up", the extreme emphasis on close quarters combat to the point where they give you upgradeable military weapons,

Yes you can use similar tactics to take them down, what's the problem with that?

What similar tactics?

So yet again you are showing how the tactic of keeping away and shooting is better than jumping in and swinging away yet for some reason you dont see that and you want to STILL jump in and swing away?

Because melee is fun compared to gunplay. It's more visceral and is more exciting than hiding behind a rock and using Puncture mods to kill things. Or in this case, standing on a crate and taking potshots. It exposes you to more risk innately. Right now there is no reason to actually expose yourself to risk against Chargers because it's not like they die any faster or you get anything about it.

Yes, if there was one enemy that required only one gun to kill him that would suck.

What does this have to do with anything?

This has everything to do with the current situation, which is "You might as well have just made Infested immune to all guns but the Mk1 Braton, that would be approximately as fun as the situation now". Right now, I am outright refusing to play anything more than the minimum of Infested maps, and when I do play those I only take the most OP weapons and gear I have, because I refuse to spend one more second fighting Chargers than I have to. Even the meatwall bosses are more fun than fighting Chargers.

Like i said, i dont do the math so how many bullets do you need to shoot to do that 514 dmg vs the number of swings that hit multiple enemies.

One second of continuous fire. That's about 20 bullets. You can hold down the fire button for thirty seconds before running out of ammo. And if your balance point for melee is 'well, it doesn't run out of ammo', you've already admitted melee attacks aren't balanced and are way weaker than guns.

So wait, with a rank 12 volt you can take down, like, 5 ancients of different kinds in a room with the normal amounts of mobs running around and some how you have trouble with the dogs? Im sorry but i am calling BS on this whole argument right here.

Those Ancients are less dangerous than the dogs since they can get melee hitstunned. They just take somewhat longer to kill unless you have an armor-ignore weapon. I'm sorry if you don't understand how "5 enemies who get staggered by even light melee attacks and are slow unless they use their charge, which is easily dodgeable and has a long cooldown" are less dangerous than "20 enemies which each do four times the damage and can't be staggered who are really fast all the time and can attack while moving" the only thing that's BS is your argument.

Edited February 2, 2013 by MJ12

[Ced23Ric]

MJ, while I appreciate the effort and second the sentiment, could you let it go? It's pointless. Please don't feed.

[Zinn]

I have minimal issues with Chargers, personally, they just make the game boring because I have fewer options (eg. melee is a no-go, unless I use my level 30 Scindo). If they were beefed up and turned into a fast moving Ancient or had a severely reduced spawn rate, I'd be more okay with them in terms of fun and options. I have major issues with Grinders, though, because there is literally no place you can hide from them and they're nearly impossible to hit once the stun-train starts rolling. 3 or more and you might as well not bother waiting to die if you're solo'ing, just abort and start over (even Rhino's invincibility won't prevent stun-lock and thus you might as well not even bother). Unlike Chargers, Grinders just have to touch you, even without being in motion.

Loss of player control isn't fun in any way, shape or form. It's boring and you can't solve it by being skillful because if you're stuck, that's it. You can try adding the moniker "difficulty" to it, but it really isn't, since difficulty implies you can use skills to get out of a bad situation, rather than just running away before anything happens. Also, as Ced accurately points out, avoiding Infested and shooting them from 50 miles away isn't difficult, since they're a melee-only faction: It is boring, however, because they can't return the favor like the two other factions can.

Stunning and knock-back are basically terrible developer tools to put a stop to your progress in a given level. Now, if the game didn't constantly spawn an infinite amount of enemies when you decide to not move for two seconds, stunning would be less of a hurdle: After all, you would focus entirely on Grinders and Chargers before anything else, knowing there won't be any more of them in this room. However, like I pointed out in a post people seemed to miss completely, the game actively punishes you for standing still (being stunned) by adding even more enemies to your area. This is how the stun chains really start rolling out and when the game becomes terrible. In a Grineer mission, you're not just stun-locked, you also get shot at without any way to return fire. When shooting doesn't work for a little bit, they spawn more Grinders, meaning an even smaller window to return fire and so it goes on and on, depending on how much punishment you can take before dying or quitting. The same also applies to infested, only it doesn't really matter which enemy spawns, since all of them add the same effect. They're just much easier to avoid by bringing a high level gun, preferably with puncture, which is why I hoped Cedric didn't use them so heavily as an example (I've had the pleasure of Infested stun trains, though, but almost all of them have in common that I didn't use my gun, unlike the new grineer stun mechanics).

Edited February 2, 2013 by Zinn

[Ferriwind]

If you are stunned in the air, you can spam melee or weapon fire to recover.

[MJ12]

MJ, while I appreciate the effort and second the sentiment, could you let it go? It's pointless. Please don't feed.

I don't think he's a troll, I think he's just a silly billy who doesn't really understand the difference between 'interesting difficulty' and 'fake difficulty'. Spoilers: Phantom/Banshee/Brute/Atlas Sync Kills in ME3 MP are kind of fake difficulty, and at the very least they take a long time to decide to use their sync kills, while a Infested Stun Carnival is as guaranteed a death as a sync kill and doesn't have the same kind of warning or ability to be interrupted.

Stun mechanics are the most interesting if they don't actually take away control. I mean, flashbangs in CoD are annoying but you can at least try to mitigate their effects.

[UkyoSonoda]

Well in the case of infested their normal melee attacks stagger. IMO I think these should just screw up your aim with a gun. The reasoning on this is that yes grineer and corpus stagger you when they hit you. But looking at their animations they're deliberately hitting you in the face or atleast trying to. Infested are pretty much just attacking you without any real focus on a specific body location.

Ancients causing stagger would still be fine. They're pretty much hitting you with a heavy fist or tentacle. Getting knocked over if their charging attack connects is fine too.

Leapers knockdown from jump attack is fine also. However if close to them they can do normal melee attacks which seem to apply normal melee hit stagger mechanics. I'd rather these normal strikes just make aiming a gun become problematic.

Runners. IMO their explosion should launch you a distance. The other thing I would change is either tone down the spawn rate or make it so runners exploding set eachother off if they're in the blast range. This would cut some of the chain stagger while adding some interesting changes to team combat as 1 of them exploding could cause a chain reaction through a room hitting everyone.

Revamped chargers. I'd cut their damage a bit and remove the stagger on hit to the same aiming disruption for guns.

Crawler types "poison, Paralyze, etc" Given these pretty much just flail at your ankles if you're too close I'd take the stagger from their normal attacks also.

IMO Shockwave moa's are fine due to the noise they make + the wind up they have before stomping. Running into 5 of them at once right behind a door is just another one of those "oh &*#^" moments that keep the game fun for most people.

The new Grinders... Yeah I really hate those annoying things and to make them more annoying they award hardly any exp when you pop them lol.

[TwilightAsh]

Loss of player control isn't fun in any way, shape or form. It's boring and you can't solve it by being skillful because if you're stuck, that's it. You can try adding the moniker "difficulty" to it, but it really isn't, since difficulty implies you can use skills to get out of a bad situation, rather than just running away before anything happens. Also, as Ced accurately points out, avoiding Infested and shooting them from 50 miles away isn't difficult, since they're a melee-only faction: It is boring, however, because they can't return the favor like the two other factions can.

Stunning and knock-back are basically terrible developer tools to put a stop to your progress in a given level. Now, if the game didn't constantly spawn an infinite amount of enemies when you decide to not move for two seconds, stunning would be less of a hurdle: After all, you would focus entirely on Grinders and Chargers before anything else, knowing there won't be any more of them in this room. However, like I pointed out in a post people seemed to miss completely, the game actively punishes you for standing still (being stunned) by adding even more enemies to your area.

This +1. If I want real difficulty, I'd rather the dev remove the poison ancient's melee stagger and let them fling poison blob (that doesn't goddam stun). Now the Infected has one ranged attacker that can be dangerous in melee range too. Eh, just a random opinion

[MJ12]

This +1. If I want real difficulty, I'd rather the dev remove the poison ancient's melee stagger and let them fling poison blob (that doesn't goddam stun). Now the Infected has one ranged attacker that can be dangerous in melee range too. Eh, just a random opinion

I'd give them the DarkSector shooting Infested (they fired a shotgun-like blast of 'shards') instead as elite-ish enemies. Those guys would keep the Infected close-range emphasis but have a fair amount of reach and give the Infested a ranged attacker.

[Mak_Gohae]

Ah yes, the last resort argument of the terrible person. "YOU MUST NOT BE GOOD AT THIS GAME!"

Not saying that at all, all i am saying is that if you are fighting an enemy in a way where they can get the upper hand and then in fact do get it once in a while......why are you getting annoy by that? This WILL happen.

2+2=4, guys, you know the risks.

I get stunlocked and killed when I end up in a corner or when I decide to try to figure out how to melee Chargers because I want to see if there's some kind of trick to it. Or when an Ancient shows up behind me due to all the Chargers blocking my vision and sends me on my &#!. This isn't 'having trouble doing so'. This is 'Chargers are still bullsh**t'. Because there's no skill that lets you see behind you, and even a single Charger stun means all the Runners/Chargers catch up to me and now I'm dead.

If this was the first time you dealt with this enemies, cool, but now you know. The first time i met these enemies the same thing happened but when i saw that i quickly did a jump attack and have never since let them get close.

BTW, you do have an ability to see behind you. You have the enemy radar artifact and enemy radar mod.

Level 30 frames taking on level 10 Chargers are at significant risk of death due to this mechanic and how they eat 60+ shields/health per attack and attack twice a second. Sure, Infested were too easy before but at least it was fun. They were the breather level, something you fired up when you had ten minutes to burn and wanted to get a hundred or so kills. Breather levels have an important place in games, just as much as challenge.

I mentioned this already, my 30 Loki leveling the heat sword in the new MERCURY Infested level while standing place swinging away for a bit had the chargers take down my shield. But that problem is not the same as the stagger problem, that problem is about their damage and i do agree that this part needs some adjusting.

And it shouldn't be. Infested should punish being a coward. Grineer do it via grenades, Corpus do it via Mine Ospreys and grenades, and the Infested show up and they decide to do the exact opposite. You know what the absolute worst kind of game mechanic is? One which specifically forces you to unlearn everyone else

We are in 14th Baktun.... at this point in time, unless you never played video games, people should be familiar with enemies having certain patterns to follow to best defeat them. There is nothing to unlearn in fact is the TOTAL opposite becasue you NEED to learn their pattern.

And dont call it being a coward call it a tactical retreat. The 300 Spartans in the Battle of Thermopylae faked running away to draw the enemy into position advantageous to them.

Are you really doing to call the 300 COWARDS!?

Are you REALLY going to call KING LEONIDAS THE BRAVE A COWARD!!!!!!?

If you don't understand how 'running away from enemies like a coward' breaks the pace of a game that's about being aggressive to the point where DE has come out and said 'we don't want to put in a cover system because that would break the flow' I really can't help you. At all. Why do I play Warframe instead of say, ME3 Multiplayer? Because it rewards aggression rather than hiding, running away, and kiting. If you use powers and aren't massively outleveled by the enemies you can aggressively move forward and use melee heavily on Corpus and Grineer. You could do that with Infested. That was actually fun. Now you can't. Because whoever put in Chargers doesn't understand that half the draw of Warframe has been that melee is a viable, useful option for every class. This weakens massively in the lategame due to issues about dying too fast and melee damage simply not keeping up with ranged damage (the breakpoint when you can no longer kill standard enemies with a single charge attack is a pretty huge shift) but that's what was fun.

Chargers are not fun. They're all bullsh**t of ME3MP Husks/Abominations with none of the saving graces (those being the absolute least durable enemies period and dying really fast even in Gold).

How does a run-and-gun have ONE direction that if you choose to run to it breaks the pace?

SPAAAARTAAAAAAA!!!!!

The total lack of a cover system, the Gorgon's balance point being "it takes time to spin up", the extreme emphasis on close quarters combat to the point where they give you upgradeable military weapons,

No cover yet there is a lot of cover and conners all over the game.

So what are you doing while reloading the Gorgon? Cause the reload time on that sucker is long.... and i think the answer involves the letters C and O and the sound 'brrrr.'

There are a couple of sniper weapons and several guns do work LONG range. Hell, the main complain about the Burston is the fact that at long range it sucks.

So what we have here are just different impressions of the game, which is fine, but should not be treated as the totality of the game.

Im leveling a Bronco now and yes i do run to people's faces while shooting, and with a scindo i do the same but that style of combat is not the only one used in this game.

What similar tactics?

shooting them from far.

Because melee is fun compared to gunplay. It's more visceral and is more exciting than hiding behind a rock and using Puncture mods to kill things. Or in this case, standing on a crate and taking potshots. It exposes you to more risk innately. Right now there is no reason to actually expose yourself to risk against Chargers because it's not like they die any faster or you get anything about it.

You like melee? Great but the game doesnt only involve it. Melee is one half of the equation and sometimes melee isnt as easy to pull off and when that happens the other half should be used.

This has everything to do with the current situation, which is "You might as well have just made Infested immune to all guns but the Mk1 Braton, that would be approximately as fun as the situation now". Right now, I am outright refusing to play anything more than the minimum of Infested maps, and when I do play those I only take the most OP weapons and gear I have, because I refuse to spend one more second fighting Chargers than I have to. Even the meatwall bosses are more fun than fighting Chargers.

Not only do you not answer the question but you show how you can equip yourself with different weapons to defeat them.

One second of continuous fire. That's about 20 bullets. You can hold down the fire button for thirty seconds before running out of ammo. And if your balance point for melee is 'well, it doesn't run out of ammo', you've already admitted melee attacks aren't balanced and are way weaker than guns.

When did i admit this? All i am doing is asking question.

In fact, i am giving a different impression using my examples with the Scindo.

Those Ancients are less dangerous than the dogs since they can get melee hitstunned. They just take somewhat longer to kill unless you have an armor-ignore weapon. I'm sorry if you don't understand how "5 enemies who get staggered by even light melee attacks and are slow unless they use their charge, which is easily dodgeable and has a long cooldown" are less dangerous than "20 enemies which each do four times the damage and can't be staggered who are really fast all the time and can attack while moving" the only thing that's BS is your argument.

There were Toxics and Healers and they have a range attack that take away all shields and energy.

If you can run around all of that along with regular mobs and handle it with a rank 12 Volt.... again... you should not have any trouble with the Charger because you should be juggling the chargers in the same fashion.

I don't think he's a troll, I think he's just a silly billy who doesn't really understand the difference between 'interesting difficulty' and 'fake difficulty'. Spoilers: Phantom/Banshee/Brute/Atlas Sync Kills in ME3 MP are kind of fake difficulty, and at the very least they take a long time to decide to use their sync kills, while a Infested Stun Carnival is as guaranteed a death as a sync kill and doesn't have the same kind of warning or ability to be interrupted.

Stun mechanics are the most interesting if they don't actually take away control. I mean, flashbangs in CoD are annoying but you can at least try to mitigate their effects.

This isnt about difficulty this about tactics, using tactics where the enemy can get the advantage and being annoyed when they do is a bit humorous. Like.... what are you really expecting to happen?

Come on, guys, remember.

SSSSSSPPPPPPPPPAAAARRRRTTTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

[TwilightAsh]

I will say this again, and I don't need long posts to do it. Kiting all the time to avoid being stunlocked is not fun, Sparta or not. Thank you, that is all.

[Yurt]

Okay these are some extremely long posts that are too long to read. I can see where you are coming from MJ with the thinking that kiting isn't fun but the fact that there is another option to use that results in the enemies being easily killed then you can't really complain about them being overpowered. And yes I do play on Eris and Pluto all the time.

You choosing to melee a horde of infested that specializes in close quarters is you adding a challenge to your playstyle that isn't quite necessary. Sure it may be funner but you have to expect things to not be so easy.

To me the sheer number of chargers that seem to gather is a quick and easy sign that I should probably avoid running straight in to melee all of them.

Edit: I just read and do agree that infested levels no longer being 'breathers' takes away from the game a little bit. But with Eris being a high level infested only planet it wouldn't be good for the whole planet just to be mega easy. If they toned down the max number of charger spawn at a given time then I think the charger itself would not have to be balanced.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Yurt

[MJ12]

-snip post-

Your comparisons to SPAAAAAAARTAAAAAA are hilarious because I actually know a bit about the reality of Sparta. They were a fantastically brittle military force which was extremely cowardly because of how their lifestyle made them utterly irreplaceable. Playing a real game about being SPAAAAAAAAAARTA would be amusing, because it would basically be "Run away from any enemy which was even a tiny threat to you and then stab them in the back when they're asleep". That's what happens when you're fantastically brittle and can lose no forces.

So yes, saying "SPAAAAAAAAAAAAARTAAAANS ran away from battles" is true. It also illustrates the exact opposite point. Strategically, Spartans were utter cowards. The ancient Greeks mocked them endlessly for running away from battles they would probably have won because they were afraid of taking losses.

Thank you for proving my point. This is called "Warframe", not "Cowardiceframe". I don't want to emulate the Spartans. If I wanted to play that game I could play Splinter Cell. And yes, you can make a game about aggressive forward movement, punishing retreating and hiding in cover. The Grineer do that okay, since basically all of their enemies are most dangerous when you hide.

(Also when I'm empty on my Gorgon I use a power to disappear or a sidearm, not 'hide behind a wall'.)

Okay these are some extremely long posts that are too long to read. I can see where you are coming from MJ with the thinking that kiting isn't fun but the fact that there is another option to use that results in the enemies being easily killed then you can't really complain about them being overpowered. And yes I do play on Eris and Pluto all the time.

You choosing to melee a horde of infested that specializes in close quarters is you adding a challenge to your playstyle that isn't quite necessary. Sure it may be funner but you have to expect things to not be so easy.

To me the sheer number of chargers that seem to gather is a quick and easy sign that I should probably avoid running straight in to melee all of them.

Edit: I just read and do agree that infested levels no longer being 'breathers' takes away from the game a little bit. But with Eris being a high level infested only planet it wouldn't be good for the whole planet just to be mega easy. If they toned down the max number of charger spawn at a given time then I think the charger itself would not have to be balanced.

Like I said, this would be like Devil May Cry having enemies which you could only defeat by shooting them with guns a bunch.

Actually they tried that. It was called Devil May Cry 2 and it was so bad that they refuse to acknowledge it ever existed at this point. So yes, I should be able to get into melee with Infested and come out on top, when the game emphasizes fluid transitions between gunplay and melee and visceral close-quarters combat to the point where a bunch of Warframes are ostensibly specialized to it. A melee no-sell is just terrible. I mean, you can even melee shockwave moas and heavy grineer. They don't no-sell melee because they can stun you and knock you down in close but their powers have counters, they can be incapacitated the same way you incapacitate regular enemies, and they are rarer.

Making melee challenging is one thing. Forcing you to run away shooting guns is another entirely.

Edited February 3, 2013 by MJ12

[Ced23Ric]

... you can't really complain about them being overpowered.

Not the point of this thread. Mak & MJ are far off the topic, they are discussing difficulty, which is besides the point. I asked both to cut it down, but no dice, so I asked moderators now to bring this back in line.

The point is: If one faction can only be met in one condition without being frustrating/annoying, then something is wrong. Since Infested are best fought outside of their threat bubble (== the range in which they can inflict damage), the current enemy designers attempted to make their bubbles more sticky (once you get in, you stay longer). But as a result, their threat bubbles became even more problematic, and staying out of them is even more so the best way to deal with them.

Not the engagement or variety was raised. Just the annoying/frustrating part of their threat bubble. And that is a design trend I hope to point out, stop and revert. The Infested have potential for very, very cool stuff, but right now, they are annoying. You either stay out of their threat bubble or you will be stunned. It's a promise.

[Mak_Gohae]

Not the point of this thread. Mak & MJ are far off the topic, they are discussing difficulty, which is besides the point. I asked both to cut it down, but no dice, so I asked moderators now to bring this back in line.

The point is: If one faction can only be met in one condition without being frustrating/annoying, then something is wrong. Since Infested are best fought outside of their threat bubble (== the range in which they can inflict damage), the current enemy designers attempted to make their bubbles more sticky (once you get in, you stay longer). But as a result, their threat bubbles became even more problematic, and staying out of them is even more so the best way to deal with them.

Not the engagement or variety was raised. Just the annoying/frustrating part of their threat bubble. And that is a design trend I hope to point out, stop and revert. The Infested have potential for very, very cool stuff, but right now, they are annoying. You either stay out of their threat bubble or you will be stunned. It's a promise.

I am not discussing difficulty i am discussing tactics.

Video games for the longest have had enemies that have certain ways to best defeating them and this game, like many of them currently out and many to come, follows this long lasting trend.

And you CAN in fact face them in their "threat bubble" but you have to be smart about it. I mentioned a few tips on how to deal with this that will let you get close to what you are trying to do. Just dont expect to sit there swinging away and have nothing happen.

[Zakalwe]

I don't like the new focus on stagger with Crawlers and Grinders, I really think they need to have their stagger effects removed or toned down, but it was absolutley fine before that imo.

I've been stunlocked once, and since then I've avoided it.

The only time I get staggered is when I let a shield grineer get close enough and that always feels like my fault, so it's not frustrating.

Before the new enemies, these things seemed very easy to avoid. And I do mean by using a mix of melee and guns, too.

If it really is a problem for you all, i'll support whatever, but all I can say is I've not noticed it at all until Grinders and Chargers were brought in.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Ced23Ric]

If it really is a problem for you all, ...

Again, wrong angle.

I've been stunlocked once, and since then I've avoided it.

It is a problem for you, too, then. You avoid it, because the mechanism teaches you that the best way to deal with it is not dealing with it at all. And that is the point I am trying to make.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Zakalwe]

No, Ced, I've avoided it because it's easy to avoid and not a massive issue.

I don't run from groups of infected or even think about the possibility of stunlock or stagger, I treat them just as I treat every other group of mobs and dont' adapt my style to avoid stunlock. And I melee a lot.

I'm not saying any of this to be contrary; I honestly. really don't see an issue with anything but the new enemies.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Ced23Ric]

I honestly. really don't see an issue with anything but the new enemies.

In that case, I suggest you read the OP again, because I have explained the issue there.

[Noctua]

I agree the new infested enemy stunlocking ability is a bit silly.

imo thy should reduce greatly the odds of them stunning you or making them have 1/3 of their current life. They're smaller and run faster than the others, afterall. The're no reason for them to be also stronger and tougher.

[Zakalwe]

I've read it, Ced, and, as I've said, I don't notice the problems you descirbe.

I've not adapted my style to avoid a poor mechanic, I've played like I do and not been slapped by it the way you seem to have been, so I don't even recognise its existance as anything but a way to punish me not playing well.... hell, 95% of the itme I don't even recongnise its existence.

Really, even the Grinders seem fine to me, all they really need is lower HP and they'll be easy to manage.

The chargers are ridiculous, though.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Ced23Ric]

I've read it, Ced, and, as I've said, I don't notice the problems you descirbe.

Then you didn't understand what I wrote, and I apologize if my wording wasn't clear. I was not describing "my problems", I was describing the enemies, their toolbox and their threat bubbles. The point is not that Infested are too hard. It's not about survival. I am really, really trying to explain this, but it's not getting through. What I described is their toolbox that is limited to stun mechanisms, which results in the faction being best avoided, as the best course of action. Their only way of interacting with a player within their means is using a frustrating mechanism - stunning.

Was that better to understand? I am really struggling to get this across, it seems. I never once said that the Infested need to be nerfed. They need to be changed, need a more diverse toolbox, to be an engaging, enjoyable opposing faction, over being a faction best fought by avoidance. I can clear Eris all day everyday, no worries. I just don't enjoy it, because it's either using high ground to exploit the AI, running away and kiting, or using slow mechanisms to effectively disable the toolbox of the Infested.

I hope you can now see what I mean. If not, I give up.

[Zakalwe]

Ced, I understood from the first post dude, you seem to be misunderstanding me...

I wrote "your problems" because clearly you've experienced these things or you wouldn't be writing about them.

I've not experienced these things, and, as such, I don't consider these mechanics a problem. And it's not because I know how to avoid it by kiting or not engaging with these enemies in the ways I want to, I just play...

If loads of people find it an issue, though, then it probably needs addressing.

[Redler]

My thought process when fighting each faction as Rhino that's not involve shooting in general face direction or melee to save ammo:

Grineer: Dodge the shield dude when he's charging or just 1 right back at him, never go near elite grineer or get my &#! knockoff, roll away from grenade or pess 2, charge attack when Grinder coming or it will be annoying.

Corpus: Shoot the damn camera, kill the flying shield rone first, drones bomb dropping is not bad leave them alone for MOA (unless it's jackal fight), jump when MOA is doing shockwave.

Infested: Jump on the closest box, RUN from runner, RUN from leaper, RUN from charger, RUN from Toxic, RUN from Ancients especially Disruptor but not from Heale.. oh wait a pack of charger and runner, I'm so out of here. Finished mission, sell my Scindo and get Fragor because I can't find any good reason to use it anymore without losing a revive or nearly lose it.

[Nesteea]

Completely random person comes here and says: "I'm fed up being stunlocked too, do the bounce-back-up or roundhouse-sword-action-while-getting-up-spinning animation FFS LOL"

[Zakalwe]

Remember Halo 1 and Brutes?

I LOVED how you could taunt them to charge, dodge at the last moment, and hit them in the week spot with a pistol and bring them down, but if you tried to take them head on they were very hardy. When there were two, the tactic to easily kill them was more

I wish there were some way you could use skill and cunning to take down larger targets faster in this game, and them not being bullet sponges. While I have no real problem dealing with Ancients, and I don't see the issue with the mehcanics Ced describes perosnally, I find engagments with them boring and drawn out.