Smoother Riven mods (help balance overpricing)

[Xarteros]

It can be pretty misleading to see a max rank riven give 280% damage to its weapon, but have another maxed riven only show 50% extra damage. Since you can't tell what a weapon's Riven strength is without owning a usable riven with that weapon, or without googling, it can be a bit difficult to gauge on-the-fly.

This is also the cause for a lot of overpricing. People see high values on a Riven for a garbage-tier weapon, and they often think that it makes the Riven worth much more than it is. 

Easy Fix: Show the unmodified Riven mod values, before the weapon's Strength is factored into it. When you equip it onto the weapon, THEN show the adjusted values for its strength. That way, the distribution of stats would seem more uniform, and people can judge the Riven mod for the actual distribution of its stats, not for the strength it has on the weapon's current Riven strength.

It also helps players get a better idea of how good the mod will be if the Riven disposition changes in the future.

It's not super-important, but it would most likely be super-easy to implement, and it'd be a really nice QoL change

[Doxorn]

or just show the riven disposition of the weapon on the Riven mod.

[Epsik-kun]

2 hours ago, Xarteros said:

it can be a bit difficult to gauge on-the-fly.

Multiply the unranked values by 9.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Epsik-kun

[OvisCaedo]

13 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Multiply unranked values by 9.

Not what he's talking about. His concern is that, without knowing disposition, it is hard to tell if a given value is good or bad for a particular weapon's rivens.

...His proposed change is horrendous, though, since he's suggesting that you should be able to buy mods and then be surprised when it turns out that this mod is nearly useless because minimum dispositions can be crippling enough that they can end up questionable to even use over normal mods.

Showing the riven disposition on the mod just makes sense, though that admittedly will still leave some ambiguity over where or not this is a "good" or "bad" amount of that stat for that weapon. And my personally preferred solution would be to remove that question entirely by NOT having rivens have a random value range for a given stat, and instead for X weapon with Y pattern of positive/negative stats to just always have each stat be the same Z value. Would remove one of the needless layers of RNG while still keeping most of them, and probably help the supposed serious server issues DE claims their boneheaded system caused by removing the need to store and send/receive what would likely be the most complex value.

but they probably won't do that so just having the disposition shown on mods somewhere would be nice.

Edited August 10, 2017 by OvisCaedo

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, OvisCaedo said:

His concern is that, without knowing disposition, it is hard to tell if a given value is good or bad for a particular weapon's rivens

As far as I can tell, the variance between the min and max values of the same Riven is relatively small. I personally had never seen anything remotely close to the 50% vs 280% example in the OP.
So, given the inherent randomness of Rivens and rarity of their specific variants, I highly doubt the suggested change will affect anything.
The basic knowledge that Rivens with a negative stat have positive ones of higher values tends to be enough for judging Rivens.
So, maybe I'm being wrong in my understanding of Rivens, but the whole presumed problem stated in the OP strikes me as a non-existent one. Hence my confusion.

That being said, I do see nothing wrong with a QoL change of displaying Riven's disposition on the mod itself.
 

[k05h]

4 hours ago, Xarteros said:

This is also the cause for a lot of overpricing.

More important is to educate tenno how risky buying into hig price rivens really is. I think there should be a big warning sign whenever you trade rivens

- Riven disposition can change any time

- Weapon stats can change over time

- Rivens can only be use with one weapon

- Playing only one weapon can lead to burnout

- New and better weapons will be introduced into the game over time

- Number of riven mods on the market is increasing constantly

Edited August 10, 2017 by k05h

[almostsurelymarkovian]

4 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

As far as I can tell, the variance between the min and max values of the same Riven is relatively small. I personally had never seen anything remotely close to the 50% vs 280% example in the OP.
So, given the inherent randomness of Rivens and rarity of their specific variants, I highly doubt the suggested change will affect anything.
The basic knowledge that Rivens with a negative stat have positive ones of higher values tends to be enough for judging Rivens.
So, maybe I'm being wrong in my understanding of Rivens, but the whole presumed problem stated in the OP strikes me as a non-existent one. Hence my confusion.

That being said, I do see nothing wrong with a QoL change of displaying Riven's disposition on the mod itself.
 

An Opticor riven with +Critical Chance, +Critical Damage, and a negative stat could have anywhere from 202-251% CC and 162-201% CD. That is a fairly wide range.

[TaylorsContraction]

9 hours ago, Doxorn said:

or just show the riven disposition of the weapon on the Riven mod.

Yes please

[Xarteros]

11 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Not what he's talking about. His concern is that, without knowing disposition, it is hard to tell if a given value is good or bad for a particular weapon's rivens.

...His proposed change is horrendous, though, since he's suggesting that you should be able to buy mods and then be surprised when it turns out that this mod is nearly useless because minimum dispositions can be crippling enough that they can end up questionable to even use over normal mods.

You have a good point about showing the disposition on the mod, I just figured it would still be nice to adjust the base stats so they are always in similar numbers, and you just see the distribution. Now, I'll edit my main post to reflect this, but I feel that both ideas would work well together.

I may have misrepresented what I mean. When I say I want the riven mods to show their base values, not adjusted by strength, I mean their percentage distributions.

Example Riven: Weapon X

Damage: +15%
Toxin: +75%
Reload: 60%
Fire Rate: -50%

Instead of showing the actual stats that they provide, the stats shown are the distribution of strength between the given stats, balanced by any penalty, so the total should reach 100% each time. In that regard, it'd also be good to show the riven disposition somewhere on the card.

The intention is that people see the mod, and they see "Oh, it's got a lot of toxin and reload, but not as much damage. I'm looking for a build with more damage". When the strength is distributed to the stats, they get different values and it's really confusing to gauge on the fly. Crit Chance gets higher stats than Punch Through, and Damage gets higher stats than Faction Damage. The values might seem like they are a high proportion, but it could be misleading. The above example, for instance, might show 80% base damage, and 150% toxin damage. Now, the actual strength of the Damage value is 15% compared to Toxin's 75%, so the Damage is actually really low in comparison. But, Elemental Damage doesn't scale as high as Base Damage on secondaries, so having 80% and 150% doesn't look like as much of a gap.

I dunno, I might just not be explaining what I mean very well, but it'd create some uniformity and predictability out of the system. I'm quite sick of seeing people with mods for horrible weapons, with horrible stats for that weapon (really high status on non-status weapons, ammo penalties on weapons that are already inefficient etc) and thinking that they should sell it for 600p just because the values look like they are big, important numbers. Showing the weapon's percentage distribution would mean that nobody thinks that their mod is better just by sheer stat inflation, and everyone would have to judge the mods on their actual merits and usefulness