Despair / Kunai Nerf

[LazyKnight]

This is more about the style of gameplay, i could also try and get the supra, but i prefer the boltor because it fits into my style of gameplay.

 

When we go to sidearms, one that can be used on a general different situations and ranges, there is only 2, akbolto and kunai, the idea like other weapons, is to change them on several aspects so it's bad on one thing and good on another, but in this case (and we can compare so many weapons) the kunai and despair are simply OP.

 

This gives the idea that the only way to succeed is to use that style of gameplay and that weapon.

 

You have to make other weapons appealing, even if the Mastery rank is different, a nerf would be wise.

 

But yeah, share your ideas, is the nerf necessary? what other aspects can the kunai be nerfed? should Mastery rank solve the issue?

 

I understand many don't like it, but you have to admit the numbers are a tad high when compared with everything else.

If armor was changed so all NPC had fixed values for armor and resistance the math would balance out right and fix numerous weapon instantly. Right now the scaling NERFS hard the normal weapon past level 1+. 

[Erondight]

 

Yes, they should. Why? Because weapons shouldn't be overall "more powerful" or "better" than other weapons in the first place. Properly balancing the weapons in a game means making everything have advantages and disadvantages so that it ends up becoming player preference. For example, Hek might have good base damage, but it has a small clip and low fire rate. If you're a "newbie" as you say, you shouldn't have the mods required to circumvent the drawbacks.

 

That's not really the way to look at the game in my opinion. I'm fine with progression as a whole such as the evolution of people using the Braton (or maybe Vandal) going onto the Braton Prime with some effort. This isn't a PvP game like Guild Wars 2 where stat progression has to hit an absolute balance point or the game breaks down.

The issue I personally have with it is the fact that Kunai/Despair are so much better then nearly any other weapon that using anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot. A level 70 defense mission might render them ineffective but nearly any other weapon that break point is usually around 35-40.

Really as it comes down to it the better option might be to scale the other sidearms up to the level of the Kunai and then adjust the monster to compensate the difference so you don't take any challenge outta the content.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Jest3rX0

[LazyKnight]

   

That's not really the way to look at the game. I'm fine with progression as a whole such as the evolution of people using the Braton (or maybe Vandal) going onto the Braton Prime with some effort. This isn't a PvP game like Guild Wars 2 where stat progression has to hit an absolute balance point or the game breaks down.

The issue I personally have with it is the fact that Kunai/Despair are so much better then nearly any other weapon that using anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot. A level 70 defense mission might render them ineffective but nearly any other weapon that break point is usually around 35-40.

Really as it comes down to it the better option might be to scale the other sidearms up to the level of the Kunai and then adjust the monster to compensate the difference so you don't take any challenge outta the content.

Seer would out scale a kunai for sniping if it was AI because of its massive base. However, its progressive loss of power as NPC get strong makes it trash. This armor issue needs fixing before weapons can be made comparable. Even if despair did 30 damage it still out scale all non AI/ap weapons as armor class increases.

Edited July 19, 2013 by LazyKnight

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yes, they should. Why? Because weapons shouldn't be overall "more powerful" or "better" than other weapons in the first place. Properly balancing the weapons in a game means making everything have advantages and disadvantages so that it ends up becoming player preference. For example, Hek might have good base damage, but it has a small clip and low fire rate. If you're a "newbie" as you say, you shouldn't have the mods required to circumvent the drawbacks.

The where is the progression? That's a BIG part of F2P games, the progression. And making all weapons sidegrades is hard. very hard, and very boring, no reason to try out a new weapon, after all, it's more or less the same as stuff you have already.

 

My rank is 9, working on 10 unless they lock things higher than 9 it wouldn't stop me from getting any weapon instantly. There needs to be a re balance of armor/resistance scaling so my seer isn't trash past level 60.....

I agree, but you're also rank 9, not rank 1. (and that line was in reference to his "people who want things locked behind mastery...") not aimed at anyone besides him, especially as my line is untrue. But it was meant to be.)

[Dasmir]

  

That's not really the way to look at the game in my opinion. I'm fine with progression as a whole such as the evolution of people using the Braton (or maybe Vandal) going onto the Braton Prime with some effort. This isn't a PvP game like Guild Wars 2 where stat progression has to hit an absolute balance point or the game breaks down.

The issue I personally have with it is the fact that Kunai/Despair are so much better then nearly any other weapon that using anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot. A level 70 defense mission might render them ineffective but nearly any other weapon that break point is usually around 35-40.

Really as it comes down to it the better option might be to scale the other sidearms up to the level of the Kunai and then adjust the monster to compensate the difference so you don't take any challenge outta the content.

 

No, thats happen becouse the armor scaling is BS if all enemies has 0 armor and only the innate reduction you will think the kunai/despair will still being op ?

[Leno]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, i'm sorry if it's the case, this is merely my point of view on the matter.

 

I have seen a few weapons while playing and noticed a few tendencies:

 - weapons with weaker damage output have a faster fire rate

 - weapons that deal normal damage have higher damage than armor ignore weapons

 - DE often do 2 versions of a weapon (even if it isn't the exact same weapon) beeing one of them armor ignore

 

When i decided to make a good sidearm i went for the akbolto, high damage compared with similar dual weapons, armor ignore and a decent fire rate that cannot be upgraded that much considering the semi automatic nature.

 

All the other weapons were somehow either equivalent or they fitted another play style (like lex).

 

Then came the kunai and the despair, one does higher damage early on and the other does more damage later on, the damage was impressive so i tought there must have been some drawbacks like fire rate, reload speed, ammo,...

 

It seems there is no such thing, asside from the travel speed and arc, they fire really fast and do very high damage.

 

My akbolto with extra damage can do more damage then the kunai, but it pales if the same mod is used on the kunai itself.

Considering the difficulty to make the Akbolto i'm actually suprised kunai is so easy to make.

 

I understand you want to make weapons appealing when you release them, 45 and 55 damage is impressive, but it has been quite some time and no nerf has been made, that makes me wonder if there is any point getting any other sidearm that fits into that style of gameplay.

 

My recommendation is to bring the kunai damage to 30, maybe even lower and despair to 35-38.

 

I understand many will hate me for this, but a weapon with such few drawbacks cannot have such damage, the kunai pretty much outclasses the akbolto, i could even suggest lower numbers, because the reload speed and the ammo economy is insane, but that may be something DE won't make despite beeing the most fair decision.

 

If it was up to me, kunai would have 20 damage and despair 25 and they would have increased reload times (not much, but enough for you to consider to actually use the reload speed mod)

Acrid.

[Erondight]

 

No, thats happen becouse the armor scaling is BS if all enemies has 0 armor and only the innate reduction you will think the kunai/despair will still being op ?

 

Then that has to be the whole point of the balancing effect.

If you have a weapon that has 100% armor ignore the base damage needs to be on a lower scale then ones that suffer the effects of armor so players are encouraged to actually use multiple weapons based on the circumstances of enemy type or mission.

As it is people just spam Kunai until there bored with it at which point they might pull out the main weapon or the melee weapon. There's no reason to make an actual choice in the matter outside limitations like ammo supply, which is fixed by cheap ammo boxes.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Jest3rX0

[LazyKnight]

   

Then that has to be the whole point of the balancing effect.

If you have a weapon that has 100% armor ignore the base damage needs to be on a lower scale then ones that suffer the effects of armor so players are encouraged to actually use multiple weapons. As it is people just spam Kunai until there bored with it at which point they might pull out the main weapon or the melee weapon. There's no reason to make an actual choice in the matter outside limitations like ammo supply, which is fixed by cheap ammo boxes.

What the OP wants wouldn't help a thing and just make the game painful. The limitation is caused by dumb way NPC get diamond hard armor not the weapons damage. The weapon all have comparable DPS are and valid options without the scaling of armor/resistance.

[KIREEK]

Acrid does not match my style of gameplay and i don't like the weapon.

 

I'm discussing kunai and despair.

 

hikou and acrid are somehow balanced because the drawbacks exist and kind of overlap with the advantages

[TenZa]

The where is the progression? That's a BIG part of F2P games, the progression. And making all weapons sidegrades is hard. very hard, and very boring, no reason to try out a new weapon, after all, it's more or less the same as stuff you have already.

 

 

I understand where you're coming from, however the problem with progression is that it makes weapons fade out into the shadows, which is a lot worse in my opinion. If I like how, say, the MK1-Braton FEELS, then I should be able to play it at any level in the game and it's still viable. Sidegrades are indeed very difficult to correctly execute, but doesn't that just mean that they're overall more healthy for the game? You say it makes the game boring and takes away the reason to try new weapons, but that isn't really the case, because again weapons have different rates of fire, damage properties, clip size, max ammo, accuracy, etc. You might like how gun X feels but wish it fired a little faster, and then you stumble upon gun Y and it fires faster at the cost of a smaller clip but ends up being a perfect fit.

[Erondight]

 

I understand where you're coming from, however the problem with progression is that it makes weapons fade out into the shadows, which is a lot worse in my opinion. If I like how, say, the MK1-Braton FEELS, then I should be able to play it at any level in the game and it's still viable. Sidegrades are indeed very difficult to correctly execute, but doesn't that just mean that they're overall more healthy for the game? You say it makes the game boring and takes away the reason to try new weapons, but that isn't really the case, because again weapons have different rates of fire, damage properties, clip size, max ammo, accuracy, etc. You might like how gun X feels but wish it fired a little faster, and then you stumble upon gun Y and it fires faster at the cost of a smaller clip but ends up being a perfect fit.

 

At that point though your basically trying to blend a different genre into the current style of gameplay. Progression is currently the only real reason to keep playing outside the experience of an excellent spectacle fighter. If you don't have that then you have to provide a different kind of progression in the form of achievements, competitive gameplay, or an entirely different and unique experience thats ever changing.

I hate to keep going back to GW2 but there 'Living World' model is basically when your attempting to build an example around because it allows them to provide many options for gameplay. Expecting a similiar experience out of what is basically still an Indie company would be far beyond what is currently possible I think.

[InFlames]

Sobek is really fine now =/

its really OP now.

[KIREEK]

Fires 4 bullets but at 4x less fire rate when compared with assault rifles, 25 damage isn't all that different from other projectiles damage.

Reload speed is also a tad high, the weapon is by far not OP

 

Stay on topic ppl

Edited July 19, 2013 by KIREEKPSO

[InFlames]

Fires 4 bullets but at 4x less fire rate when compared with assault rifles, 25 damage isn't all that different from other projectiles damage.

Reload speed is also a tad high, the weapon is by far not OP

 

Stay on topic ppl

 

100 base damage.

20 shells clip.

Blaze, Accelerated blast, Tactical pump.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I understand where you're coming from, however the problem with progression is that it makes weapons fade out into the shadows,

Right, starter gear probably shouldn't be THAT viable for end game missions...

 

which is a lot worse in my opinion. If I like how, say, the MK1-Braton FEELS, then I should be able to play it at any level in the game and it's still viable.

They could make the mk1 prime, or vandal, or something. Some upgrade to the mk1 feel.

 

Sidegrades are indeed very difficult to correctly execute, but doesn't that just mean that they're overall more healthy for the game?

Sure, if done right, but there is almost no reason to take a mk1 over a braton (in terms of damage, firing in bursts gets the same result as firing full auto with the mk1)

 

You say it makes the game boring and takes away the reason to try new weapons, but that isn't really the case, because again weapons have different rates of fire, damage properties, clip size, max ammo, accuracy, etc. You might like how gun X feels but wish it fired a little faster, and then you stumble upon gun Y and it fires faster at the cost of a smaller clip but ends up being a perfect fit.

True, my point here was wrong, but it's a lot harder to make sidegrades that really feel different but are just as viable (i.e. the sobek originally was trash, mostly because of ammo efficiency.)

[Egioh]

nerf them and everyone will be running around with acrid. Nerf that and then its the throwing stars. Nerf those as well? Akbolto il still a solid choice.

 

Its not kunai/despair that need nerfing, Its Armor ignore/pierce that needs to be less effective

[Dasmir]

nerf them and everyone will be running around with acrid. Nerf that and then its the throwing stars. Nerf those as well? Akbolto il still a solid choice.

 

Its not kunai/despair that need nerfing, Its Armor ignore/pierce that needs to be less effective

 

Yeah becouse enemies with tons of armor having 99% resistence to other damages in weakpoints is really normal and balanced

[KIREEK]

100 base damage.

20 shells clip.

Blaze, Accelerated blast, Tactical pump.

 

Mods can be used on any weapon, tactical pump for example can be used on other shotguns

if you use a weapon that has a 8.0 fire rate (4x faster) and if you do 25 damage (4x less damage) then you find out many weapons like that exist already.

 

I will start reporting posts for offtopic from now on, please don't use these topics to discuss changes in oher weapons, use other weapons for comparisson only.

 

The only weapons that i thing deserver a heavy nerf are the depair and the kunai, yes other weapons could be tweaked, but this one deservers special attention as my sugested ner is pretty much to reduce the damage in half.

[Dasmir]

Yeah becouse enemies with tons of armor having 99% resistence to other damages in weakpoints is really normal and balanced

[LazyKnight]

Mods can be used on any weapon, tactical pump for example can be used on other shotguns

if you use a weapon that has a 8.0 fire rate (4x faster) and if you do 25 damage (4x less damage) then you find out many weapons like that exist already.

 

I will start reporting posts for offtopic from now on, please don't use these topics to discuss changes in oher weapons, use other weapons for comparisson only.

 

The only weapons that i thing deserver a heavy nerf are the depair and the kunai, yes other weapons could be tweaked, but this one deservers special attention as my sugested ner is pretty much to reduce the damage in half.

Nerfing some arbitrarily on free floating baseless argument and has no topic at all, go ahead and report people. Read that stick topic.

Edited July 19, 2013 by LazyKnight

[D3thpool]

don't nerf x to be as bad as y buff y to be as good as x

 

That is exactly the point.

[Eirshy]

The Akbolto suffers the same problem as all semi-autos, and that's a framelock issue. You're actually able to fire them waaaaay faster than you can, but you have to be on a computer so hard-core it makes HAL drool.

 

Kunai have a bit higher power than they should due to the current stealth system; once that gets a rework you might be able to lower them a tad.

 

However, we need to fix armor scaling before we nerf the only real DPS weapons late game.

 

 

 

Also I think I saw someone say Kunai beats Despair in some way. Soooo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24MLrfkvZ2k

Alright so, I've been getting into arguments about the Despair and Kunai for a while now, and I've decided enough is enough.

Despair deals armor piercing damage by default, base 55.
Kunai deals armor ignoring damage by default, base 45.

Now, both armor piercing AND armor ignoring are unaffected by scaling armor (as this video shows; anyone who's played can tell you that Ancients past level 50 become massive, neigh-invulnerable bullet sponges if you don't shoot their boot or use something that ignores their scaling resists).

There are 4 enemy types that resist Armor Piercing damage (as of v9.1.4)
- Infested Chargers (the "dogs")
- Infested Walkers (leapers, runners)
- Infested Crawlers (regular, noxious, and nauseous)
- Moas on their gun barrel (regular, fusion, rail, and shockwave)

Everything else takes 100% or more from Armor Piercing. Notable things that take bonus damage...
- Corpus Crewmen heads take 400% rather than 200%
- Grineer bodies take 150%, and their heads take 300%


Since Moa gun barrels take reduced damage from everything compared to their legs (and their backs are their weakpoint), and the other three that take reduced damage from AP are light infested (which take 3x from any slashing weapon (most bladed melees)), AP is either superior or equal to AI (on anything that isn't Light Infested).

Comparing the base damages, Despair is 10 higher than Kunai, meaning it has a slightly larger pool to scale with Hornet Strike (+2 more per rank; +22 at max), for Fire/Electric (+1.5 more per rank; +9 at max), for Cold (+1 more per rank; +6 at max), and for AP (+0.5 more per rank; +3 at max).

IN CONCLUSION:
Because Despair deals AP instead of AI and has 10 higher base damage, its damage output *is better than Kunai's* against everything that is not Light Infested. Since you tend to use both of these weapons to kill things that are not light infested in the first place, Despair is better than Kunai for damage.


IF you want an actual argument for why you should take Kunai over Despair, Despair does not stagger while Kunai does. This is, however, a mixed blessing, as this makes it harder to land multiple headshots in a row, and it can easily be argued that it's more of a curse.
DO NOT argue that Kunai EVER beats Despair in dps, as it is a very flawed argument that only applies to a small slice of the enemy pool and Phroid (while Despair will be leaps and bounds ahead on literally everything else).

And if Phroid is really enough justification for you to potato and forma and use both, you really need to reconsider your life choices, as just putting a cryo mod on any weapon allows you to kite him between roars.

 

 

Acrid does not match my style of gameplay and i don't like the weapon.

 

I'm discussing kunai and despair.

 

hikou and acrid are somehow balanced because the drawbacks exist and kind of overlap with the advantages

Yet the Acrid is stronger than the Despair. Soooo you want to nerf the Kunai and Despair which are both WEAKER than the Acrid...

Because they're OP.

Even though they're both beaten by another weapon.

But the Acrid's fine, even though it's stronger than the supposedly OP weapons.

 

Oooookay...

 

 

So glad I'm almost Mastery 7, then I don't have to even bother arguing with you peasants as you won't ever get any weapon I use even modified (as if you could to begin with, but the Brandal says DE occasionally caves) because none of you will even fathom the power I hold. smh

 

Its not kunai/despair that need nerfing, Its Armor ignore/pierce that needs to be less effective

 

This. Though as a note, the Acrid beats the Despair, which beats the Kunai.... it's just the Acrid is Clantech C2M7, the Despair is a stalker drop, Kunai are bought from the market.

 

Yeah becouse enemies with tons of armor having 99% resistence to other damages in weakpoints is really normal and balanced

 

You misunderstand. There are two ways to nerf something. Either you reduce its effectiveness, or you reduce the effectiveness of what it beats. If Air is overpowered, Anti-Air will seem overpowered as well even if it's only average, as it is the only way to counter Air. If you nerf Air just slightly, Anti-Air will fall in-line.

 

 

If they fix the invulnerability scaling that enemies have to simply be armor scaling, things should fall into place. And without touching Despair/Kunai (or the Acrid), you just made all kinds of other guns way more viable- thus nerfing through buffing.

Edited July 19, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Numot]

Stop making new topics about this. Seriously, this dead horse has been flogged to the point where all the flesh has been flayed from the bones.

 

Kunai/dispair are balanced. Enemy armor values are not.

 

As a result against high level targets having crazy armor/resistance, only a few weapons are worth taking against them mainly those that deal armor piercing or armor ignoring damage.

 

I suggest capping armor values on enemy units, and buffing the mod 'No return' for pistols. If 'No return' wasn't such utter garbage, people would not have such an issue.

[PublikDomain]

Throwing weapons need a fire rate reduction and an accuracy reduction. I mean, just look at them. Your arms are moving insanely fast to throw these things, and with near-perfect accuracy. They're fine in terms of damage output (more enemies still need to take damage from other sources), but just the appearance of them is ridiculous.

 

Also, the Hikou gib like no other. It's silly to bisect a Grineer with one little spinning piece of metal.

Edited July 19, 2013 by PublikDomain

[KIREEK]

Yet the Acrid is stronger than the Despair. Soooo you want to nerf the Kunai and Despair which are both WEAKER than the Acrid...

Because they're OP.

Even though they're both beaten by another weapon.

But the Acrid's fine, even though it's stronger than the supposedly OP weapons.

 

Oooookay...

 

 

You do have a point there, maybe next time i'll make another topic to nerf the acrid, for now let's stick to kunai and despair

 

But you misunderstood, i tried comparing akboltos with other weapons in the time frame and i found others just as usefull as akbolto, so in the end akbolto is just different, we can argue if dual vipers can kill bosses faster and whatnot but ak bolto went into my weapon of election.

 

Then i check to see if other weapons (that are added) fit into that balance, i check the fire rate, type of damage, damage,...

All weapons suprinsingly fit into the role, but when i get to the kunai, it falls appart.

Truth be told, the acrid is also OP, but i need to try it out and check more info on it before i make an opinion, but this isn't a kunai vs acrid discussion, this is about fairness.

 

If i go into my style of gameplay, why would i use akbolto over kunai?