So Is Burston The Best Rifle Now ?

[ValhaHazred]

Im loving the new burston buff i just wish that they fix the recoil is hard to land all 3 shots when trying to get head shots, same issue with the sicarus. Once that reciol is gone it can be used past shot range.

That is the point. They WANT the recoil to make it a bit tricky to hit with all three very powerful bullets.

[Cerebrawl]

It has theoretical DPS of 450, which is higher then even Supra ?

No, it has a theoretical DPS of 150. The fire rate is total bullet output, not number of bursts.

 

Still the worst rifle.

/Thread.

[rpglord]

No, it has a theoretical DPS of 150. The fire rate is total bullet output, not number of bursts.

 

Still the worst rifle.

/Thread.

No, I think you are very wrong on this one, it certanly doesn't have only 150 dps, if you build it and try it you would see this.

And if this was true, then before buff it would have only 69 DPS, which doesnt make sense, they would never make a weapon that bad.

Edited July 20, 2013 by rpglord

[Rhorge]

People need to learn how to use burst fire weapons.

 

 

My accuracy with the Burston is higher than with the Latron or Latron Prime.

Yeah, now apply your master knowledge of burst fire weapons to 50 meter headshots. Latron wins in that scenario and that is my point.

[Keltik0ne]

I never even noticed it was buffed. It seems to suck as much as it ever did.

[Saenol]

Yeah, now apply your master knowledge of burst fire weapons to 50 meter headshots. Latron wins in that scenario and that is my point.

 

I disagree.

 

I'm far from a master at these weapons, but I can land both Kraken shots, and at 2 or 3 rounds from a Burston on someone's head at 50m as often as not.

 

It does take practice, but it's not terribly difficult, and the Burston can snipe.

[Rhorge]

I disagree.

 

I'm far from a master at these weapons, but I can land both Kraken shots, and at 2 or 3 rounds from a Burston on someone's head at 50m as often as not.

 

It does take practice, but it's not terribly difficult, and the Burston can snipe.

Yeah, but it's not reliable when you have 40 grineer hosing you down and eating your framerate, putting off your timing.

[FullSupport]

I have done some testing on this weapon to compare it to pre-patch stats.

 

All this testing was done recording at steady 60 FPS and macro assisted for maximum burst output.

 

Pre-Patch:

It takes ~6.8 seconds to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 6.8 seconds = actual fire rate ~6.6

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~5.3 seconds to to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 5.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.5

this isn't even a 60% fire rate increase like the mod claims to be, likely because of burst firing.

 

Current:

It takes ~5.4 seconds to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 5.4 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.4

This means Burston got a ~43% base damage increase aswell as a ~27% fire rate increase.

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~4.3 seconds to to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 4.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~10.5

this again, isn't even a 60% fire rate increase, it's ~25% increase.

 

Coparing it to the Braton again:

20*11.3 = 226 vs 30*8.4 = 252

 

Burston wins in dps! Now compared with Braton Prime:

25*10 = 250 vs 30*8.4 = 252

 

Burston actually wins in dps, however with a fire rate mod:

25*16 = 400 vs 30*10.5 = 315

Not even close, what about regular Braton?

20*18 = 360 vs 30*10.5 = 315

 

The regular Braton wins.

 

Even if Burston has a slight fire rate scaling problem, it's still more ammo effective and it's an "okay" rifle now. However if the fire rate scaling was fixed sometime, it would slightly outdamage a Braton Prime.

Edited July 20, 2013 by FullSupport

[Saenol]

Yeah, but it's not reliable when you have 40 grineer hosing you down and eating your framerate, putting off your timing.

 

This may well be the case for many, at least at longer ranges. Still, settings should always be adjusted to maintain a respectable frame rate, even in pitched battles.

 

I dusted off my Rank 9 Burston, put a maxed speed trigger (and nothing else) on it and did some semi-controlled testing in trying to land headshots.

 

This is a fairly typical example of what I saw: http://www.sendspace.com/file/phltho

 

It's a 50 fps video so play it at half speed or frame step it to see what's going on in more detail.

 

To sum it up in the three bursts I fired:

 

Burst #1 - ~35m range - two headshots and a miss.

Burst #2 - ~32m range - two headshots followed by a body shot.

target staggers, I move to adjust aim

Burst #3 - ~32m range - one headshot, target dies, other rounds uncertain.

 

Keep in mind that when it comes to burst fire weapons I'm primarily experienced with the Kraken, so the Burston will take me more getting used to before I approach the limits of what the weapon itself is capable of. I figure by the time I have two forma on it and rank it back up to 30 for the third time that I'll be able too land 75% of my shots as headshots at 30-40m. Extreme range shots will still be problematic due to the high cyclic rate of the weapon and the difficulty in fine control of the muzzle climb without a better zoom.

 

 

I have done some testing on this weapon to compare it to pre-patch stats.

 

All this testing was done recording at steady 60 FPS and macro assisted for maximum burst output.

 

Pre-Patch:

It takes ~6.8 seconds to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 6.8 seconds = actual fire rate ~6.6

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~5.3 seconds to to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 5.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.5

this isn't even a 60% fire rate increase like the mod claims to be, likely because of burst firing.

 

Current:

It takes ~5.4 seconds to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 5.4 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.4

This means Burston got a ~43% base damage increase aswell as a ~27% fire rate increase.

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~4.3 seconds to to completely empty the Burston. That's 45 shots / 4.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~10.5

this again, isn't even a 60% fire rate increase, it's ~25% increase.

 

Coparing it to the Braton again:

20*11.3 = 226 vs 30*8.4 = 252

 

Burston wins in dps! Now compared with Braton Prime:

25*10 = 250 vs 30*8.4 = 252

 

Burston actually wins in dps, however with a fire rate mod:

25*16 = 400 vs 30*10.5 = 315

Not even close, what about regular Braton?

20*18 = 360 vs 30*10.5 = 315

 

The regular Braton wins.

 

Even if Burston has a slight fire rate scaling problem, it's still more ammo effective and it's an "okay" rifle now. However if the fire rate scaling was fixed sometime, it would slightly outdamage a Braton Prime.

 

 

The problem I see with all of this is that almost no non-heavy targets will survive more than a burst or two of a modded Burston. The delay between bursts is going to be similar to, or less than the delay in aquiring a new target. Thus the Braton may well have superior sustained DPS, but the Burston is at least as good, if not better, at actually killing non-heavies.

 

In my personal experience, if mods are kept identical, the Burston does kill stuff faster, and uses less ammo while doing it.

 

I don't really think there is anything "wrong" with the fire rate scaling. The spacing between bursts doesn't need to be the same as the time between rounds in a burst.

 

Also, the prime use of fire rate mods on burst fire weapons is to tighten the spread of the projectiles.

[Keltik0ne]

Ok, I've just taken mine from rank 6 to cap. It's just a boring gun - burst mechanics in this game are not well done and you have to wonder, if a modern flash hider can eliminate weapon climb , how come the future tech is so damn bad ?

[Saenol]

Ok, I've just taken mine from rank 6 to cap. It's just a boring gun - burst mechanics in this game are not well done and you have to wonder, if a modern flash hider can eliminate weapon climb , how come the future tech is so damn bad ?

 

The real weapon the Burston is based off of (the HK G11), as well as many other actual rifles with burst fire modes, delays recoil until the last round in the burst is clear, so all three rounds land in a very tight grouping at common ranges. The Russian AN94 does the same thing with a two-round burst; recoil is delayed so both rounds strike the same spot...the first round can destroy body armor, and the second round can kill the target.

 

As for why this isn't done in Warframe, I suspect it's for balance. Warframe is not a sim, and it's by no means meant to represent reality.

[Keltik0ne]

The real weapon the Burston is based off of (the HK G11), as well as many other actual rifles with burst fire modes, delays recoil until the last round in the burst is clear, so all three rounds land in a very tight grouping at common ranges. The Russian AN94 does the same thing with a two-round burst; recoil is delayed so both rounds strike the same spot...the first round can destroy body armor, and the second round can kill the target.

 

As for why this isn't done in Warframe, I suspect it's for balance. Warframe is not a sim, and it's by no means meant to represent reality.

Thats a good point, also, I've seen (not used sadly) a G11, that thing was way ahead of it's time and the caseless ammo was by all accounts, phenomenal. Also, most of the weapons I've used with a burst facility also can be used full auto.

 

The Burston is a wasted opportunity, a weapon that while it can rival anything else on the damage charts, requires far more work to get there.

[Tesrac]

Im loving the new burston buff i just wish that they fix the recoil is hard to land all 3 shots when trying to get head shots, same issue with the sicarus. Once that reciol is gone it can be used past shot range.

 

Drop a maxed out Speed Trigger in it, with that you'll land most of your shots where you want in a nice tight grouping as long as the range isn't too far.

[rpglord]

FullSupport, fire rate in description is lower because weapon is doing 90 dmg per burst, and supposed fire rate is based on how many burst it fires not bullets.

Based on this, burston should have about 450 dps, but sadly based on your tests it clearly does not

 

Basically it should have 15 fire rate if we were testing fire rate for each bullet, it clearly falls short

Edited July 21, 2013 by rpglord

[Volt_Cruelerz]

No, it has a theoretical DPS of 150. The fire rate is total bullet output, not number of bursts.

Still the worst rifle.

/Thread.

Wrong. This was changed several patches ago.

The Burston is held back by the frame rate weirdness of the engine as are all semi autos. I talk about this extensively in here:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/58427-fire-rate-on-semi-autos-is-meaningless/ . I've done testing similar to FullSupport over several patches and more precisely diagnosed the problem.

Were it not for that bug, the Burston would be the very best gun in the game for anyone who could control the recoil.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Amistyrja]

Were it not for that bug, the Burston would be the very best gun in the game for anyone who could control the recoil.

Huh? Did they make the Burston ignore armour?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Huh? Did they make the Burston ignore armour?

No, but I'm talking overall performance.

[LazyKnight]

Wrong. This was changed several patches ago.

The Burston is held back by the frame rate weirdness of the engine as are all semi autos. I talk about this extensively in here:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/58427-fire-rate-on-semi-autos-is-meaningless/ . I've done testing similar to FullSupport over several patches and more precisely diagnosed the problem.

Were it not for that bug, the Burston would be the very best gun in the game for anyone who could control the recoil.

I think the only way for them to fix it is to make the engine treat all weapon as full-auto and do a check to see if the player has clicked or not but have all animation preloaded and read to go assuming that the player would hit the trigger again. I can link what value does but its just a predictive firing mechanics that assumes the player will fire again.

[Doubledeus]

the way the burston muzzle climbs during the burst really irks me, only way to use the weapon is to aim it like a shotgun dead center and let the last shot hit the head.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

the way the burston muzzle climbs during the burst really irks me, only way to use the weapon is to aim it like a shotgun dead center and let the last shot hit the head.

Or slide your mouse down while firing.

[Lazer]

Burston is great now. However, being a burst weapon means it is very luck based. 

 

FTFY 

[Dasmir]

FTFY 

 

Meh i having my burston as more used weapon in game and the recoil can be countered if you know how but the true question if is that worth it.

 

right now still a great weapon for early-mid game, maybe viable for end game if the DE rework the armor system.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Dasmir

[Relkin]

the way the burston muzzle climbs during the burst really irks me, only way to use the weapon is to aim it like a shotgun dead center and let the last shot hit the head.

Speed trigger reduces the spread from this noticeably once maxed. 

[Lazer]

Meh i having my burston as more used weapon in game and the recoil can be countered if you know how but the true question if is that worth it.

 

right now still a great weapon for early-mid game, maybe viable for end game if the DE rework the armor system.

 

Not referring to recoil.

[taiiat]

I think the only way for them to fix it is to make the engine treat all weapon as full-auto and do a check to see if the player has clicked or not but have all animation preloaded and read to go assuming that the player would hit the trigger again. I can link what value does but its just a predictive firing mechanics that assumes the player will fire again.

there are some engines that have a clock timer that things like guns base themselves off of. if you sync off a clock timer, then framerate is not a problem. 

 

CODfishy has the exact same problem. the game is completely different on consoles which can barely sometimes obtain their target 30FPS. while PC's will be able to get 120, 180, or higher framerates. so on PC guns will shoot a LOT faster. 

 

syncing guns to framerate is $&*&*#(%&. if you want a game to be working as expected, never do it. it means that the guy over there with SLI Titans will have a super easy time (guns will be shooting a lot faster)compared to anyone with a reasonable framerate, like 60. 

it makes for very skewed terms of balance. if players all see a vastly different experience with all equipment, then good luck getting correct information for balancing.

Edited July 22, 2013 by taiiat