Warframe classes: Military, Infiltrators, Spies, Support and Reconnaissance

[Dwolfknight]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

Conflict of sources. 

That sir, is an equivocated WESTERN interpretation of an old Japanese concept.

INTERESTING!!!

Where does all this knowledge of "Old Japanese Concepts" come from?

Mercenaries are simply a militant unaffiliated group that can be hired, This is what ninjas were.

[(PSN)felsager]

^WRONG. 

That is your western interpretation of the concept Ninja. 

[Dwolfknight]

Just now, (PS4)felsager said:

^WRONG. 

That is your western interpretation of the concept Ninja. 

You've already said that twice but not once what is you "Eastern" interpretation of a Ninja

[(PSN)felsager]

Wiki

Ninja is an on'yomi (Early Middle Chinese–influenced) reading of the two kanji "忍者". In the native kun'yomi kanji reading, it is pronounced shinobi, a shortened form of the transcription shinobi-no-mono (忍の者).^[10]

The word shinobi appears in the written record as far back as the late 8th century in poems in the Man'yōshū.^[11][12] The underlying connotation of shinobi (忍) means "to steal away; to hide" and—by extension—"to forbear", hence its association with stealth and invisibility. Mono (者) means "a person".

Historically, the word ninja was not in common use, and a variety of regional colloquialisms evolved to describe what would later be dubbed ninja. Along with shinobi, some examples include monomi ("one who sees"), nokizaru ("macaque on the roof"), rappa ("ruffian"), kusa ("grass") and Iga-mono ("one from Iga").^[8] In historical documents, shinobi is almost always used.

 

A more accurate interpretation of Ninja is "one skilled in the art of stealth" 

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[Dwolfknight]

From THE EXACT SAME WIKI :

ninja (忍者) or shinobi (忍び) was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, assassination and guerrilla warfare.[1] Their covert methods of waging irregular warfare were deemed dishonorable and beneath the samurai-caste, who observed strict rules about honor and combat.[2] The shinobi proper, a specially trained group of spies and mercenaries, appeared in the 15th century during the Sengoku period,[3] but antecedents may have existed in the 14th century,[4] and possibly in the 12th century (Heian or early Kamakura era).[5][6]

Edited August 20, 2017 by Dwolfknight
Edited for visibility

[(PSN)felsager]

In that sentence there is an "OR". Synonyms are not EQUIVALENTS on concepts explanations. 

I went directly to the ETYMOLOGY and ORIGIN of the word and the USES. 

The covert agent or mercenary are modern western concepts. 

The source outside Wiki

http://pakninjas.com/is-it-ninja-or-shinobi-no-mono/

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

RIP thread. Getting chewed apart by responses already.

[Dwolfknight]

There is your problem, if you were to only use word for what they originally were used, language would be incredibly different from what it is now, meaning of words change with time and culture, that Origin comes from the 8th MF century, if you expect it to have the same meaning as today you are wrong.

Like it is stated in the wiki Ninja became commonly used for its ease of pronunciation, I bet the jargon of Shinobis play Free would have attracted more players than Ninjas play Free.

But here is the greatest offense, THAT is the only occurrence of the name Ninja in Warframe.

[(PSN)felsager]

Just now, (Xbox One)OTF SERENiTY said:

RIP thread. Getting chewed apart by responses already.

The thread can retain the source. You simply read the first post and reply. 

 

Warframe classes can diversify players and provide more special type of players to the table. For example adding these classes could bring use of vehicles, heavy weapons and or specialized newer warframes. 

[(PSN)felsager]

8 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

There is your problem, if you were to only use word for what they originally were used, language would be incredibly different from what it is now, meaning of words change with time and culture, that Origin comes from the 8th MF century, if you expect it to have the same meaning as today you are wrong.

Like it is stated in the wiki Ninja became commonly used for its ease of pronunciation, I bet the jargon of Shinobis play Free would have attracted more players than Ninjas play Free.

But here is the greatest offense, THAT is the only occurrence of the name Ninja in Warframe.

I knew all along that you are stubborn. Remember you where the one who came in supposing that I was unprepared. 

Warframes are not ninjas. Warframes are exactly what the word says. These frames has classes and classes favors one way of play over the other using special gear and equipment. These classes makes diversity, provides different way of gaming and bring different mindsets to the same game. I am an FPS player who almost reached MR 24 in warframe. I played it as "an FPS GAME" focusing on heavy weapons, healing and quick runs similar to a Sonic The Hedgehog equipped with weird weapons. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, (PS4)felsager said:

EV Trinity uses the Zarr, Ogris or the opticor, there a "medic" uses a "Missile launcher" ". 

Rhino using a heat dagger, there you have "Heavy Infantry using an OHK dagger". 

You DESIGN newer warframes that fulfill the class with special items favored for him. However these items are not restricted for use on other warframes. Any other warframe will not gain any special perk out of the weapon because such warframe doesn't belong to that class. Simple. 

Well done, you worked out my broad terms with specifics.

Or they continue doing what the have have been thus far and releasing a Warframe based on theme that works and not tied to a "battlefield" role. That other games are doing what you want/expect is probably a good thing, you should go play/wait for them to come out for what you want/expect. This game doesn't need its diverse selection of options pigeonholed into 5 "classes".

 

Ninja, informal

a person who excels in a particular skill or activity.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by AzureTerra

[Dwolfknight]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

I know that you are stubborn. But you where the one who came in supposing that I was unprepared. 

Warframes are not ninjas. Warframes are exactly what the word says. These frames has classes and classes favor one way of play over the other using special gear and equipment. These classes makes diversity, provides different way of gaming and bring different mindsets to the same game. I am an FPS player who almost reached MR 24 in warframe. I played it as "an FPS GAME" focusing on heavy weapons, healing and quick runs similar to a Sonic The hedgehog equipped with weird weapons. 

Let's go back to your original thread then.
I completely Disagree that Warframes should be placed into Classes that benefit from certain weapons, they already deviate from being categorized, for example, Oberon, I use him as a healer but he has the potential for Confusion, Mass damage and as a Tank. My use for him should not be dictated by the game but by my choices. If the game benefited me for using one of those over the other that would be limiting his potential with his other options indirectly.

Now I do agree that we could use the Focus system to give benefits to certain play styles, it even fits the five themes if you want (Military - Madurai, Support - Vazarin, Spies - Naramon and so forth)

However, it has been stated by DE that the game will NOT have an FPS component, not even as an option, remembering that FPS is First Person Shooter, you can play the game the same way with a TPS, the only difference (gameplay wise) is the Camera, and if you think that Sniper Scopes are First Person you would be wrong, they simply Zoom in and stop rendering your character for a short while, it is still the same Third Person Camera imitating first person.

[(PSN)felsager]

4 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Well done, you worked out my broad terms with specifics.          

Well, you brought those into discussion. Classes earns attributes for a reason.

4 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Or they continue doing what the have have been thus far and releasing a Warframe based on theme that works and not tied to a "battlefield" role. That other games are doing what you want/expect is probably a good thing, you should go play/wait for them to come out for what you want/expect. This game doesn't need its diverse selection of options pigeonholed into 5 "classes".

Warframe is a playground where you grind and construct a play style. A "Battlefield" role is exactly an interesting concept for the game. If that doesn't fit on DE visions then of course, I have those other games doing exactly what I "play/want"

I do have games like Over Watch, Horizon Zero Down, and of course War Frame. This thread is a conceptual proposal for an open discussion. Many resist the idea of adding FPS elements to a game that really can handle them without loosing the folklore of  Warframe. This game was constructed by stages under trial and error. It ended up being a great concept thanks to the clients, users and players. 

The pigeon hole principle doesn't apply here. I am not limiting to only five classes, there could be more. I simply IDENTIFIED five classes in the game based on what we have up to this point. The game is well defined and easily can admit a rearrangement of these warframes. 

The idea is to add the heavy weapon, fps player into the formula without changing the previous scheme of the game. Adding doesn't mean changing. 

[(PSN)felsager]

23 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

Let's go back to your original thread then.
I completely Disagree that Warframes should be placed into Classes that benefit from certain weapons, they already deviate from being categorized, for example, Oberon, I use him as a healer but he has the potential for Confusion, Mass damage and as a Tank. My use for him should not be dictated by the game but by my choices. If the game benefited me for using one of those over the other that would be limiting his potential with his other options indirectly.

Let me introduce you to the concept lineal combination. Within these five classes, warframes can have, may have or will have hybrid uses. My ratinalization of the system is based on these 5 classes because they seem to be the parameters of design. Octavia is something very strange but you can see some GRADIENTS of these five classes. Yes classes can be combined to form hybrids. Some military are hybrids classes but these are very strange or not commonly used. 

I never MENTIONED anything about the supers on the warframes. That is another type of discussion. I am speaking about benefits on weapons, gears and items where your warframe attains a maximum on certain type of specialized equipment. We can reason supers as "perks" but that would deviate the conversation. Classes WILL NOT AFFECT the skill tree or the set of four powers on your warframe. 

The system we have now is the following: A card game that affects weapon parameters and warframe parameters, a skill tree for the tenno and a warframe that represents four particular supers that could be used in a single cast or in combined casts. 

Quote

Now I do agree that we could use the Focus system to give benefits to certain play styles, it even fits the five themes if you want (Military - Madurai, Support - Vazarin, Spies - Naramon and so forth)

I agree with this 100 percent. This is why my brain tickled with the idea of classes. 

Quote

However, it has been stated by DE that the game will NOT have an FPS component, not even as an option, remembering that FPS is First Person Shooter, you can play the game the same way with a TPS, the only difference (gameplay wise) is the Camera, and if you think that Sniper Scopes are First Person you would be wrong, they simply Zoom in and stop rendering your character for a short while, it is still the same Third Person Camera imitating first person.

You can move with the scoped sniper. You have an early FPS gameplay structure there. I mentioned those as SUGGESTIONS. 

"it has been stated by DE that the game will NOT have an FPS component, not even as an option"

Link, evidence? 

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[AzureTerra]

Yet it doesn't need "FPS" elements added to it. Add Heavy Weapons, not a "class" that gains specific benefits from having heavy weapons. Closest really would be another frame with an Exalted weapon or so.

[Duavey]

2 hours ago, (PS4)felsager said:

This is why we deeply enjoy the experience. 

We need to see the world grow and Plains of Eidolon is the right choice

We would like see a diversification of players on the five possible classes:military frames, infiltrators, spies, support and reconnaissance.

We would like to see the full potential of such a great game on open world themes. While it keeps the close corridor stages, we could see large stages combining open world and interiors. 

Is Plain of Eilodon the future where we could see warframe classes? If so, please show us more. 

What is this "we"?
 

2 hours ago, (PS4)felsager said:

We would like see a diversification of players on the five possible classes:military frames, infiltrators, spies, support and reconnaissance.

Infiltration/Spy/Recon all seem to be the same basic function: Sneak in, retrieve information. Why split them up? What's the difference?
Furthermore, what would a class system add to Warframe? Is it needed? Is it just to be more informative as to the Frame's intended role or are you recommending some kind of added gameplay mechanic? It seems to me you want to limit certain weapons/mods/perks to certain classes.

1 hour ago, (PS4)felsager said:

I understand why you are afraid of change.

If you have complex of inferiority, incompetence or lack of intelligence that is your own business.

I knew all along that you are stubborn. 

Oh yeah, this is going to be a productive thread.

 

[(PSN)felsager]

14 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Yet it doesn't need "FPS" elements added to it. Add Heavy Weapons, not a "class" that gains specific benefits from having heavy weapons. Closest really would be another frame with an Exalted weapon or so.

That works. I'm fine with that simplification. Under their scheme a warframe can have four suppers using special weapons. We have that already with Ivara and Mesa. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[(PSN)felsager]

8 minutes ago, Duavey said:

What is this "we"?

People who likes endgame.

People who plays the game using heavies and many other FPS players who enjoys this game. 

People who wants more specified roles without altering the formula. 

8 minutes ago, Duavey said:

Infiltration/Spy/Recon all seem to be the same basic function: Sneak in, retrieve information. Why split them up? What's the difference?
Furthermore, what would a class system add to Warframe? Is it needed? Is it just to be more informative as to the Frame's intended role or are you recommending some kind of added gameplay mechanic? It seems to me you want to limit certain weapons/mods/perks to certain classes.

 

 

Infiltration, spy and recon doesn't have the same functions. We use three different names for a reason. 

Yes, add more game play mechanics as a switch between fps and tps on some frames and create special weapons for those classes. Pretty simple. 

"Oh yeah, this is going to be a productive thread."

It is, read carefully I used the word IF. 

[Heckzu]

1 hour ago, (PS4)felsager said:

Warframe classes can diversify players and provide more special type of players to the table.

Classes do the opposite of diversifying. Classes limit or remove flexibility.

Take a look at MMOs that have the traditional Healer-DPS-Tank roles. In almost all of them, a majority of players will chose to be DPS classes, and the number of DPS players overshadows healers and tanks, which leads to issues forming parties due to the inability for players to fulfill a role their class isn't made for.

[Dwolfknight]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

"it has been stated by DE that the game will NOT have an FPS component, not even as an option"

Link, evidence? 

 

For that, I would need to rewatch a bunch of 1h+ Devstreams. I know that they said it simply would not work with the way the engine is built, plus they would need to remake hundreds of animations, and what about parkour, and all the bugs that would come with it, and on and on and on, Basically it would be too problematic for a simple option.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

Let me introduce you to the concept lineal combination. Within these five classes, warframes can have, may have or will have hybrid uses. My ratinalization of the system is based on these 5 classes because they seem to be the parameters of design. Octavia is something very strange but you can see some GRADIENTS of these five classes. Yes classes can be combined to form hybrids. Some military are hybrids classes but these are very strange or not commonly used. 

I never MENTIONED anything about the supers on the warframes. That is another type of discussion. I am speaking about benefits on weapons, gears and items where your warframe attains a maximum on certain type of specialized equipment. We can reason supers as "perks" but that would deviate the conversation. Classes WILL NOT AFFECT the skill tree or the set of four powers on your warframe. 

8

I only used Oberon's powers as an In-game Example but the concept still stands.

Either way in your original post you don't really mention How this classes would affect the game, Would you get more damage/status out of weapons? Or open new forms of interactions? You should expand on your ideas, you simply mentioned them but not how they would work, It's why you have 3 confused reactions.

[(PSN)theelix]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

I knew all along that you are stubborn. Remember you where the one who came in supposing that I was unprepared. 

Warframes are not ninjas. Warframes are exactly what the word says. These frames has classes and classes favors one way of play over the other using special gear and equipment. 

So, you don't actually know what ninjas are, and you're thinking stereotypically. 

Yeah, haha. We're called Warframe. Regardless, we always have been a small group that excelled in quiet missions because we can't pose full frontal assaults. Certainly, we have heavy weapons and heavy frames, but at this point to exclude the idea that sometimes ninjas used unorthodox, heavy weapons from the enemy is honestly foolish. 

 

And also, as far as I can tell in this thread this would be a categorical and cosmetic change, which is ultimately pointless AND counter-intuitive. Yes, yes. You still have freedom of choice, but it dissuades people from using weapons that work correctly and superbly on per frame basis. Say, Panthera with Ash. It's not a quiet weapon, it doesn't kill in one hit... Why use it on Ash, right? High Slash Damage and the ability to stun and (with augment) disarm enemies? And (with augment) Ash's Shuriken can take away the only thing that cripples the Panthera? That's not going to be anywhere on the list for Ash, even though it fits his synergy table well. Having a stereotypical categorization for more than weapons is going to be painful for those who are already engrossed in the game, dissuade newer players from finding weapons that fill good roles, and ultimately waste time DE could be using to fix bugs like Radiation ruining bane mods still. 

[(PSN)felsager]

1 minute ago, Heckzu said:

Classes do the opposite of diversifying. Classes limit or remove flexibility.

The conception of implementation varies. Sledge Hammer, Insomniac, Infinity Ward among others define the classes as rigid builds where players can't create hybrids. I addressed that discussion in previous posts. Mechanics of implementation and designs must be done carefully. Classes helps to distinguish immediate uses but there could be combined classes. This is a basic rational thinking where you define terms in order to classify and design. 

1 minute ago, Heckzu said:

Take a look at MMOs that have the traditional Healer-DPS-Tank roles. In almost all of them, a majority of players will chose to be DPS classes, and the number of DPS players overshadows healers and tanks, which leads to issues forming parties due to the inability for players to fulfill a role their class isn't made for.

Mercy and Lucio went through many updates because many went on DPS and CC. Builders are not considered in this game, builders can add more strategy to this game. A weapon that never was attended is the Penta. Explosive grenades are extremely useful for tactical situations. This game manages to reach plans, strategy and tactics perfectly. Well defined classes, carefully designed, can bring a more diverse treatment to the game. 

Blizzard went into length rethinking the balance formula of Heroes in Overwatch. The meta statistics is there for a reason. DE buffs and nerfs according to the distribution of uses and instances (I am supposing that DE  analyses statistical data for such changes). 

 

[(PSN)theelix]

7 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

For that, I would need to rewatch a bunch of 1h+ Devstreams. I know that they said it simply would not work with the way the engine is built, plus they would need to remake hundreds of animations, and what about parkour, and all the bugs that would come with it, and on and on and on, Basically it would be too problematic for a simple option.

It was confirmed once on the forums in a thread I commented in that I can't even find anymore. First Person is never coming back because it would require a massive undertaking that DE isn't going to do. 

[Rics242001]

just let the devs focus on POE, bug fixing, future reworks. There is no need for a class like system, its just simply not needed, the thing that makes warframe, warframe is the freedom given to the player, a class system would just get in the way.

[(PSN)felsager]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

So, you don't actually know what ninjas are, and you're thinking stereotypically. 

I do know what they are. The question is, do you really know?

4 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Yeah, haha. We're called Warframe. Regardless, we always have been a small group that excelled in quiet missions because we can't pose full frontal assaults. Certainly, we have heavy weapons and heavy frames, but at this point to exclude the idea that sometimes ninjas used unorthodox, heavy weapons from the enemy is honestly foolish. 

Full stealth missions are attainable and of course making the mission without firing or killing a single troop shows how diverse this game or playground is. We know that warframes are parameters for solving problems. We assemble tiers similar to what we do in Overwatch. In our current history, Warframe became a school for game designers. 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

It dissuades people from using weapons that work correctly and superbly on per frame basis. Say, Panthera with Ash. It's not a quiet weapon, it doesn't kill in one hit... Why use it on Ash, right? High Slash Damage and the ability to stun and (with augment) disarm enemies? And (with augment) Ash's Shuriken can take away the only thing that cripples the Panthera? That's not going to be anywhere on the list for Ash, even though it fits his synergy table well. Having a stereotypical categorization for more than weapons is going to be painful for those who are already engrossed in the game, dissuade newer players from finding weapons that fill good roles, and ultimately waste time DE could be using to fix bugs like Radiation ruining bane mods still. 

I'm not telling DE what must be their list of priorities. I am simply making a proposal. If the proposal flourish into a good idea then we work over that idea on a consensus. Some warframers has passives who affect weapons. We know this. Weapon proficiency happens now. Some passives improves weapons while others don't Implicitly you are defining classes there. However they are not seen explicitly.