Warframe classes: Military, Infiltrators, Spies, Support and Reconnaissance

[(PSN)felsager]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

It was confirmed once on the forums in a thread I commented in that I can't even find anymore. First Person is never coming back because it would require a massive undertaking that DE isn't going to do. 

Scale of the project, size of the development team....

 

[(PSN)felsager]

23 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

 

Either way in your original post you don't really mention How this classes would affect the game, Would you get more damage/status out of weapons? Or open new forms of interactions? You should expand on your ideas, you simply mentioned them but not how they would work, It's why you have 3 confused reactions.

The discussion is based on your input too. 

1. Warframes on a particular class has the option to switch between third and first person when they use certain weapons. That is weapons, weapons physical upgrades and gears gets higher damage on that specialized class. 

2. Warframes has different interactivity with the surrounding depending of such class. Their many mobility will remain the same on every warframe. However special classes will have more moves or interactivity in particular. 

3. All warframes keep their four supers or powers intact, all warframe keep their movements, all skill tree is not going to be affected by the chosen class. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, (PS4)felsager said:

I understand why you are afraid of change. Inclusion doesn't mean the loss of the previous construction. You can function with your mindset on things. Inclusion brings more players types and player preferences. Tiers benefit a lot with this approach. 

Vektis Prime scopes. 

Snipetron Vandal scopes.

Rubico scopes.

Switching from FPS to TPS is not a problem. Many games did this. It implies some modification on the frame movement and of course justify the EXISTENCE of a class. 

funny you said that, in actual fact you're still in third person, the game just removes the visual appearance of your frame and zooms in to the target. if you've ever had a glitch while invisible, you can see your frame on the left side of the scope: you have the crosshair, but your frame is still visible.

anyway regarding the topic at hand, Warframe should NEVER go class-based, because it's been done too many times before. Warframe is unique in that each frame doesn't adhere to a class archetype: the DPS can be tanky, the Medic can be stealthy, the Support can DPS and the Tank can be a medic. Warframes don't conform to such designs, they are their own thing, their own genre within the world of playable characters. and that's the way it should stay.

[(PSN)felsager]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

funny you said that, in actual fact you're still in third person, the game just removes the visual appearance of your frame and zooms in to the target. if you've ever had a glitch while invisible, you can see your frame on the left side of the scope: you have the crosshair, but your frame is still visible.

I never suggested that you are moving back and forth between first person and third person camera point of view. Scoping is not switching between third person point of view to first person point of view. 

20 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

anyway regarding the topic at hand, Warframe should NEVER go class-based, because it's been done too many times before. Warframe is unique in that each frame doesn't adhere to a class archetype: the DPS can be tanky, the Medic can be stealthy, the Support can DPS and the Tank can be a medic. Warframes don't conform to such designs, they are their own thing, their own genre within the world of playable characters. and that's the way it should stay.

According to you. We are expecting evolution. Classes will not affect hybridization. They simply states guidelines and a new way of organizing the approach. Read up the previous post. 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

fels, you're arguing a losing battle. Classes belong is games that are designed for them to exist from the ground up. Warframe does not do this nor would it be optimized for it.

Shall I give you an example of how a class system would look for the Warframes alone without bringing in weapons to the foray?

DPS: Ash, Rhino, Nova, Nidus, Zephyr, Valkyr, Oberon (short listed)

Support: Ash (SS augment), Trinity, Harrow, Nekros, Rhino, Nyx, Nova, Nidus, Oberon, Zephyr, Valkyr (hysteria buffer in high damage areas) (short listed)

Tank: Valkyr, "Trinity", "Nyx" (Absorption augment), Oberon, Rhino, Nidus, "Nekros" (SoS augment + health conversion) (short listed)

Stealth: Everyone with Naramon (or is it Zenurik?), a Huras, a Shade, or partied with Ivara or Ash (SS augment)

Do you see how a warframe can fit multiple roles without need of a "class system" intervening with player choice? 

Trinity is one of the squishiest warframes we have access to (especially vanilla with her 15 armor) yet with power strength, duration (and a Huras), she can actually take a fair bit of hits for the lasting time of Blessing, Link, the stealth/AI ignore of invisibility, or if you want to throw in an Ancient Healer Specter/Shadow for an additional damage reduction, she can be up to at least Atlas or base Valkyr levels of damage reduction (before steel fiber + armored agility on Valkyr), from that low value of 15 armor which hardly makes a difference on incoming damage than having zero, despite the loopholes needed to reach it.

[Firetempest]

assault, infiltrator, spy, logistics... All can be fleshed out more individually with simply more mods, augments, and new arcane enhancements from PoE. Its not magically becoming planet side. We are just running through less doorways. Still 4 people in god mode mowing though cannon fodder tell we hit something with invincibility states.

[(PSN)felsager]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

fels, you're arguing a losing battle. Classes belong is games that are designed for them to exist from the ground up. Warframe does not do this nor would it be optimized for it.

 

There's no battle to be lost in this thread. It is a proposal not an imposition. The intention is to open an expansion to the warframe universe with classes. Warfame is a disparate structure that grew on improvisations. The game took shape because the community supported DE visions with ideas, designs and feedback. For example, weapons needs to be aligned in the back of the warframe. clipping issues happens everywhere with the geometry and many other details requires polishing. 

Yes, classes can be established for future specialized warframes. Right now DE is priming every warframe, i.e. redefining the warframe's stats. DE has their mindset. I have mine. I'm simply trying to interpret the beta game they have up to this point. For me classes may add up more gameplay without altering the old warframes. Or just five new military warframes representing this classes, simple as that. It will not change the previous work or alter the essence of the game. 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

Its not exactly an "expansion" to label warframes in something along the lines of call of duty or Destiny or Smite. It's entire station is "player choice improv", if you want to bring a Valkyr, a close range warframe to an infested survival and have her use a sniper and an angstrum (2 weapons best used at a distance), then you can, despite that you'll either die in the process or just not get a good use of either.

Clipping issues happen somewhere on every game, and that has nothing to do with anything that you're trying to suggest.

And no, classing a warframe which is a multi-purpose tool is a terrible thing. We already have that ability-wise with Trinity. She does zero damage without weapons or gimping 3 other abilities which also do no damage, hence why she can only "support" or build up duration and PS to "tank" (with extreme loopholes). Primes have nothing to do with a "classing system" either, same warframe and abilities, different aesthetics and slight QOL adjustments to it.

For you, if you want a class, then pick up 1 warframe that suits each role and play it as you wish without trying to impede on others. You want a medic? Trinity, Oberon, and Harrow with the Vazarin School.  Tank? Rhino, Nidus, Inaros, Valkyr, and Atlas and bring Unairu. DPS? Excaliboy (using nothing but exalted turret), Mesa, Saryn, Ash, Equinox/Day, Ember, and bring Madurai.  "Stealth/Recon/Assination": Ivara, Loki, Banshee, Huras, Shade, and pick Naramon. There's your loadouts not counting weapons for your personal "classes".

And if you want a "military warframe", just look through, oh...every warframe from A-Z because they are wartime weapons. They're already military warframes, even Zephyr, Loki, and Mirage.

You're asking for things you can recreate on your own because the game will not hinder you from trying it. But don't try and push it on the rest of us to demote the game into a "Space Ninja/Shinobi Call of Duty". We had that with Infinite Warfrare and Destiny and they both sucked. (one objectively because Destiny couldn't hold past the tutorial.)

__________________

On top of it, don't forget that your choice of a Focus tree literally can make up for a choice you didn't make. You brought a warframe that brings no team synergy (Valkyr, Loki, Volt), you can still be a healer/medic just because you brought Vazarin and equipped the Rejuvenation aura mod so now everyone is always healing over time and you can give health, shields, a localized disrupt, and instant revives to your allies.

Or if you brought the loudest warframe possible (Rhino, Mirage, Atlas), you can use Naramon and completely bypass just about everything just because you have say blood rush and an Adarza Kavat that gives you literally infinity critical hits and therefore unlimited invisibility free of cost.

Edited August 21, 2017 by (PS4)Foxkid_8

[Mintaro]

Warframes are more "Characters" than classes in my opinion and i prefer the game as it with the total flexibility and creativity in your hands.

No i am not afraid of change i am afraid the game being dumb down.

Peasent!

[DatDarkOne]

6 hours ago, (PS4)felsager said:

The discussion is based on your input too. 

1. Warframes on a particular class has the option to switch between third and first person when they use certain weapons. That is weapons, weapons physical upgrades and gears gets higher damage on that specialized class. 

2. Warframes has different interactivity with the surrounding depending of such class. Their many mobility will remain the same on every warframe. However special classes will have more moves or interactivity in particular. 

3. All warframes keep their four supers or powers intact, all warframe keep their movements, all skill tree is not going to be affected by the chosen class. 

There isn't really a reason to pigeon hole the warframes into specific classes.  I can give you an example of a warframe that does all of the things on that list already.  Ivara.  

She's not the only one that can do the things mentioned in your list.  I'm just using her as an example because I'm the most familiar with her.  I can say with experience that she fits multiple roles quite easily.  Roles such as DPS, Support, and Stealth.  Then almost all the frames can do multiple roles at the same time, so why even bother with the class labels.  Putting the frames in a class system would further limit in players minds what they can do.  Heck most players already don't even realize that Ivara and Titania are damage dealing frames.  Mostly because of players pigeon holing them into set roles like what you are suggesting.  

TL:DR version- Your suggestion would further place limits in player's minds of what can be done with frames.  

[(PSN)felsager]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Its not exactly an "expansion" to label warframes in something along the lines of call of duty or Destiny or Smite. 

Classes are not exclusive or predetermined archetypes. It could be some sort of perk system or any other system that allows FPS to TPS switch on certain weapons. The game doesn't turn into COD because someone adds some gameplay on a special warframe ability. Titania introduced the flight everywhere super. The game didn't turned into Space Harrier due to that gameplay design.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Clipping issues happen somewhere on every game, and that has nothing to do with anything that you're trying to suggest.

It was given as an example. Weapons: Primaries and secondaries are all clipped together on the warframes when they can be aligned to the player preferences. This was simply a digression or detour. You simply can skip it. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Don't try and push it on the rest of us to demote the game into a...  

You decided to enter the thread. I'm not asking you to demote or anything. This is a PROPOSAL. A mindset doesn't changes the course of history. Forums are for these discussions. 

[(PSN)felsager]

17 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

There isn't really a reason to pigeon hole the warframes into specific classes.  I can give you an example of a warframe that does all of the things on that list already.  Ivara.  

She's not the only one that can do the things mentioned in your list.  I'm just using her as an example because I'm the most familiar with her.  I can say with experience that she fits multiple roles quite easily.  Roles such as DPS, Support, and Stealth.  Then almost all the frames can do multiple roles at the same time, so why even bother with the class labels.  Putting the frames in a class system would further limit in players minds what they can do.  Heck most players already don't even realize that Ivara and Titania are damage dealing frames.  Mostly because of players pigeon holing them into set roles like what you are suggesting.  

 

A class is a reference. Only the player places limits in their mind. Looks like the term class creates a lot of distrust on the main idea. 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

Classes are not exclusive or predetermined archetypes. It could be some sort of perk system or any other system that allows FPS to TPS switch on certain weapons. The game doesn't turn into COD because someone adds some gameplay on a special warframe ability. Titania introduced the flight everywhere super.

No, classes are pretty predetermined by nature. Anyone who can heal will be labeled as a healer unless its a self heal. If you can take hits (like by self healing as an example: Fire tanks in Dead Sea Universe) then you will be a tank, especially if you can cc a significant amount while tanking and so on. 

A "perk system" already exists as well, its called "Focus", use it. And Warframe is the LAST game you want to view in first person unless you just love experiencing vertigo. 

Titania didn't "introduce" flight either, Archwing did, they gave her a localized version but she's meant to be a deadly pixie. Pixies are tiny little creatures that can buzz around quite fast, now add in self reloading guns and metal butterflies that eat your face off.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

You decided to enter the thread. I'm not asking you to demote or anything. This is a PROPOSAL. A mindset doesn't changes the course of history. Forums are for these discussions. 

I did enter, but you're also tending to ignore that the game does not need any of these Destiny features as its not designed to embrace them without an overhaul of virtually everything that would make the game extremely generic and dumbed down (frankly, your suggestion would kill the game as it would lose its identity).

And if you say that this is a discussion, then I'm already voicing my own half of it with my responses.

[Heatnix.]

--Adds dumb Warframe classification--

--Everyone proceeds to obliterate entire rooms anyway and have no real roles--

There ya go. Warframe is what it is no matter what anyone does. Also, keep your military action stuff for Call of Duty? Go play CoD if you want to play soldier.

[(PSN)felsager]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

 And Warframe is the LAST game you want to view in first person unless you just love experiencing vertigo. 

That is ACTUALLY an interesting point. Not everybody will deal with it. Motion sickness will be very heavy. 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

I did enter, but you're also tending to ignore that the game does not need any of these Destiny features as its not designed to embrace them without an overhaul of virtually everything that would make the game extremely generic and dumbed down (frankly, your suggestion would kill the game as it would lose its identity).

And if you say that this is a discussion, then I'm already voicing my own half of it with my responses.

I'm happy with the idea of Battlefront 2. It gives me exactly what this thread suggests. I can search for many games with these attributes. These ideas doesn't kill the game if they are implemented correctly. You argumentation gives me a different comprehension of the problem that it may cause. That is why I brought it here. My idea of classical mechanics is not the same idea for the rest of the practitioners. 

[(PSN)felsager]

13 minutes ago, Heatnix. said:

--Adds dumb Warframe classification--

There could be designed in a different way. The idea of class can be developed in a different way without following current COD trends. Many users perceive it as a negative reductionist attempt. 

Quote

Go play CoD if you want to play soldier.

I have many PC games for those needs. Doesn't hurt if warframe becomes more "Military". Well, one of the factions IS military. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[Avynire]

Warframe is best viewed in Third person view, that's why we have fashion frame.

As for "ninja" as gaming and movie/ fantasy film perspective, we dont see ninja as stealth  we see ninja as fast badass character with flashy skills (ninja gaiden, shinobi, naruto, TMNT, etc)

Edited August 21, 2017 by Avynire

[(PSN)felsager]

6 hours ago, Avynire said:

Warframe is best viewed in Third person view, that's why we have fashion frame.

The problem with the concept class is the denotative value it carries due to the previous precedents like Battlefield, Arma and Call of Duty. Many games switches back and forth between TPS to FPS. GTA did that move and it worked. It is true that DE doesn't have the same personnel and capability in comparison to Rockstar*. On the other hand that platitude of "fashion frame" will not be affected either. 

Maybe an alternative to this approach is the design of five warframe with a military design encompassing these five classes. The structure remains the same, the design of the game is unaffected and everybody keeps enjoying the game the same way they did. There's no need to design a class classification system at all. That could be one way to tackle the design problem without turning the game into Call of Duty or Destiny. 

6 hours ago, Avynire said:

As for "ninja" as gaming and movie/ fantasy film perspective, we dont see ninja as stealth  we see ninja as fast badass character with flashy skills (ninja gaiden, shinobi, naruto, TMNT, etc)

Warframes are very rare objects. I can't describe them as "ninja" or military avatars. These Pokemon/Sonic The Hedgehog/Avatar characters with rare guns and swords doesn't admit any simplistic classification of classes. We all agree on that. I don't see warframes as Ninjas. They are not ninjas, they never will be ninjas in my opinion. 

[Andaius]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)felsager said:

The problem with the concept class is the denotative value it carries due to the previous precedents like Battlefield, Arma and Call of Duty. Many games switches back and forth between TPS to FPS. GTA did that move and it worked. It is true that DE doesn't have the same personnel and capability in comparison to Rockstar*. On the other hand that platitude of "fashion frame" will not be affected either. 

Maybe an alternative to this approach is the design of five warframe with a military design encompassing these five classes. The structure remains the same, the design of the game is unaffected and everybody keeps enjoying the game the same way they did. There's no need to design a class classification system at all. That could be one way to tackle the design problem without turning the game into Call of Duty or Destiny. 

Warframes are very rare objects. I can't describe them as "ninja" or military avatars. These Pokemon/Sonic The Hedgehog/Avatar characters with rare guns and swords doesn't admit any simplistic classification of classes. We all agree on that. I don't see warframes as Ninjas. They are not ninjas, they never will be ninjas in my opinion. 

Ash IS a freakin ninja.

[(PSN)felsager]

6 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Ash IS a freakin ninja.

I never use him at all. My advancement of the game and experience with ash was leveling him up for rank fodder. I placed that thing back in the shelf once I finished leveling him up.

Many beginners and amateurs spams storm blade a lot. I forgot ash almost completely that and many other reasons. 

[Andaius]

Just now, (PS4)felsager said:

I never use him at all. My advancement of the game and experience with ash was leveling him up for rank fodder. I placed that thing back in the shelf once I finished leveling him up.

Many beginners and amateurs spams storm blade a lot. I forgot ash almost completely that and many other reasons. 

He IS a ninja so your " They are not ninjas, they never will be ninjas" is objectively false.

[(PSN)felsager]

In the previous post I wrote, "in my opinion". Yes it's a matter of subjectivity not objectivity. People reinterpret reality in their terms. That doesn't extracts perception out of the objects or the subject of discussion. 

Warframes for me are something else. These bio mechanized controlled avatars with anti gravity lifters in their bodies are a result of Orokin technology. These golems where designed for war. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[Andaius]

1 minute ago, (PS4)felsager said:

In the previous post I wrote, "in my opinion". Yes it's a matter of subjectivity not objectivity. People reinterpret reality in their terms. That doesn't extracts perception out of the objects. 

He throws shurriken, uses smoke bombs to hide, has 2 count them 2 powers that lets him attack people out of the shadows. I think "subjectivity" is pretty low on this one.

[(PSN)felsager]

38 minutes ago, Andaius said:

He throws shurriken, uses smoke bombs to hide, has 2 count them 2 powers that lets him attack people out of the shadows. I think "subjectivity" is pretty low on this one.

DE ran an artistic licence of making a westernized version of a silly Ninja.

These are theme designs in warframes. Hydroid: Pirate of the Caribbean, Atlas: Rocky Balboa, etc.

Edited August 21, 2017 by (PS4)felsager

[Dwolfknight]

1 hour ago, (PS4)felsager said:

DE ran an artistic licence of making a westernized version of a silly Ninja.

These are theme designs in warframes. Hydroid: Pirate of the Caribbean, Atlas: Rocky Balboa, etc.

Interestingly enough I use Ash as a Real Shinobi, all of his weapons are also tools, Ferrox put's them where I want them to be, Detron confuses my enemies, Orvius Separates them, Shurikens creates opportunities, I'm always in the shadows and in places they wouldn't expect, and I can make sure my target will die with my last 2.

Honestly, who you play is up to you, like you said, you play the game in a more militarized approach, doesn't mean others can't be Ninjas.