World on Fire, Again.

[Almagnus1]

14 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Xana makes a good point, but the other thing is that your definition of "fun" with the ability is basically avoiding having to bother with direct gameplay. Abilities are an integral part of Warframe, you aren't supposed to just turn on an ability to kill everything while you loot. Interactivity in combat is the primary goal of the game. As for CC, there are plenty of good CC abilities that actually require interaction, or even skilled use in some cases. Again I'd argue that it is more important for the game to be interactive than efficient in combat, and in Warframe, abilities are supposed to be just as prevalent as gunplay. I'd rather the game is developed with fun abilities in mind than breaking open crates and picking up statues while stuff dies around you.

So why don't you play Ember in actually challenging content?

Whining about what Ember is doing in low level content is like saying "we should make the level 5 enemies harder because I can fart and kill them!"

[YUNoJump]

4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So why don't you play Ember in actually challenging content?

Whining about what Ember is doing in low level content is like saying "we should make the level 5 enemies harder because I can fart and kill them!"

Two problems here:

1. content should be balanced at all levels. At lower levels you can use lower-tier guns, and newer players will likely be using said guns to progress there. You wouldn't bring an unforma'd Braton to Pluto, but you would bring it to Mercury. WoF is continuous, cheap, insta-kill damage in low levels, and unlike normal abilities, you don't have to spam-cast it to constantly kill enemies. If I took Frost to Earth and tried to kill stuff by repeatedly running forward and spamming 4, I'd get left behind. Not so with WoF.

2. There isn't a point in the game where WoF actually becomes interactive and fun, because its gameplay never changes past passively hitting enemies. I've made this quite clear, I don't really care about how POWERFUL WoF is, I care about the fact that it isn't really fun to use, because using it doesn't require thought or interaction. Everyone who likes WoF likes it because it lets them dash through missions and loot peacefully, you'll be hard-pressed to find people who say "I like WoF because I enjoy watching enemies randomly explode".

If I wanted to focus on Ember's actual ability to kill stuff then I'd talk about the rest of her kit as well. Accelerant is the only thing which doesn't drop off in damage at medium-high levels, and she has no decent CC other than Accelerant and the WoF augment. And even that's surpassed by other abilities. I'm talking about WoF because I want Ember to be fun more than I want her to be efficient or endgame worthy.

[Almagnus1]

31 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Two problems here:

1. content should be balanced at all levels. At lower levels you can use lower-tier guns, and newer players will likely be using said guns to progress there. You wouldn't bring an unforma'd Braton to Pluto, but you would bring it to Mercury. WoF is continuous, cheap, insta-kill damage in low levels, and unlike normal abilities, you don't have to spam-cast it to constantly kill enemies. If I took Frost to Earth and tried to kill stuff by repeatedly running forward and spamming 4, I'd get left behind. Not so with WoF.

And how many of the playerbase **ACTUALLY** do what you're suggesting?

Please stick with reality, not some fantasy world where we all gear to the level of content.

Quote

2. There isn't a point in the game where WoF actually becomes interactive and fun, because its gameplay never changes past passively hitting enemies. I've made this quite clear, I don't really care about how POWERFUL WoF is, I care about the fact that it isn't really fun to use, because using it doesn't require thought or interaction. Everyone who likes WoF likes it because it lets them dash through missions and loot peacefully, you'll be hard-pressed to find people who say "I like WoF because I enjoy watching enemies randomly explode".

That's 100% subjective, so it's just an opinion, and not an actual argument.

Quote

If I wanted to focus on Ember's actual ability to kill stuff then I'd talk about the rest of her kit as well. Accelerant is the only thing which doesn't drop off in damage at medium-high levels, and she has no decent CC other than Accelerant and the WoF augment. And even that's surpassed by other abilities. I'm talking about WoF because I want Ember to be fun more than I want her to be efficient or endgame worthy.

Ok, so why aren't you complaining about Limbo then?

Also, maybe Ember isn't the frame for you?

Edited October 5, 2017 by Almagnus1

[traybong111]

56 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

2. There isn't a point in the game where WoF actually becomes interactive and fun, because its gameplay never changes past passively hitting enemies. I've made this quite clear, I don't really care about how POWERFUL WoF is, I care about the fact that it isn't really fun to use, because using it doesn't require thought or interaction. Everyone who likes WoF likes it because it lets them dash through missions and loot peacefully, you'll be hard-pressed to find people who say "I like WoF because I enjoy watching enemies randomly explode".

If I wanted to focus on Ember's actual ability to kill stuff then I'd talk about the rest of her kit as well. Accelerant is the only thing which doesn't drop off in damage at medium-high levels, and she has no decent CC other than Accelerant and the WoF augment. And even that's surpassed by other abilities. I'm talking about WoF because I want Ember to be fun more than I want her to be efficient or endgame worthy.

I hate to sound elitist but this really looks like a comment from someone who's never played Ember past lv30 planets. High power strength WoF provides (relatively) cheap soft-CC while Accelerant and Fire Blast provide good escape routes when things get tight. Ember already has good-ish or at least serviceable CC with reliable fire procs, radial stun, radial knockback & knockdown. Some of her perceived squishiness against hard-hitting enemies comes from the old animation inconsistency with Warframe that allows enemies to break free from certain CC animations and attack earlier than they should. 

Ugggghhh. I'm not against reworking Ember; I'm not even against completely removing WoF if she gets to be a strong CQC frame. But all these people who neither know nor care to know how Ember plays in different levels spouting WoF is lazy and that they're just trying to make her "more fun" "more interactive" or some other BS and concern trolling make me want to stick with max efficiency 200% power strength WoF just out of spite. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by traybong111

[YUNoJump]

39 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And how many of the playerbase **ACTUALLY** do what you're suggesting?

Please stick with reality, not some fantasy world where we all gear to the level of content.

You're right, it's not perfect but at the very least, every level of the game requires the ability to aim and fire, or cast abilities when the right number of enemies are around. Even the most powerful guns in the game will falter in the hands of someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn, at any level, and a player who just spams 4 on Frost over and over through a mission won't do nearly as well as someone who can get into groups and fire a decent PBAoE, again at any level. WoF does not require even this basic level of skill, and at low level essentially lets players do very well without thought at all, while the rest of their team has to try harder than them just to keep up. 

43 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's 100% subjective, so it's just an opinion, and not an actual argument.

It's subjective, but I also mentioned the fact that most people think of WoF as a utility more than an enjoyable ability. Just about every single aspect of the game is subjective, we can only judge the right direction based on how many people really enjoy stuff. And most people don't truly enjoy WoF as anything other than utility.

45 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ok, so why aren't you complaining about Limbo then?

Also, maybe Ember isn't the frame for you?

Because this isn't a) a Limbo thread or b) a "complain about everything" thread. It's an Ember thread, particularly a WoF thread, so I'll talk about that.

I don't really enjoy Ember, but as many people have mentioned here, playing on a team with an Ember can be quite annoying when they randomly blast away kills. You don't have to be an avid fan of something to criticise it.

[Entharias]

WoF looks ok to me, only thing that it needs, is a Valkyr treatment, the more the ability is on, the more energy it costs.
Then maybe, i will stop seeing those Embers afk once and for all.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

You're right, it's not perfect but at the very least, every level of the game requires the ability to aim and fire, or cast abilities when the right number of enemies are around. Even the most powerful guns in the game will falter in the hands of someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn, at any level, and a player who just spams 4 on Frost over and over through a mission won't do nearly as well as someone who can get into groups and fire a decent PBAoE, again at any level. WoF does not require even this basic level of skill, and at low level essentially lets players do very well without thought at all, while the rest of their team has to try harder than them just to keep up. 

Since when does Excalibur Exalted Blade require anything more than pointing me in the general direction of an enemy and spamming 'E'?

That definitely doesn't require skill, yet it's effective at blending almost everything in front of me.

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

It's subjective, but I also mentioned the fact that most people think of WoF as a utility more than an enjoyable ability. Just about every single aspect of the game is subjective, we can only judge the right direction based on how many people really enjoy stuff. And most people don't truly enjoy WoF as anything other than utility.

Ok, so look at Frost's Snowglobe.  That's pure utility, and no one complains about that skill.  Same about Vauban's cage.

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

Because this isn't a) a Limbo thread or b) a "complain about everything" thread. It's an Ember thread, particularly a WoF thread, so I'll talk about that.

I don't really enjoy Ember, but as many people have mentioned here, playing on a team with an Ember can be quite annoying when they randomly blast away kills. You don't have to be an avid fan of something to criticise it.

So in other words an Ember "stole" your kills, and you're here complaining about how the Ember stole your kills and should be nerfed...

Like we haven't seen THAT before....

[YUNoJump]

24 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

I hate to sound elitist but this really looks like a comment from someone who's never played Ember past lv30 planets. High power strength WoF provides (relatively) cheap soft-CC while Accelerant and Fire Blast provide good escape routes when things get tight. Ember already has good-ish or at least serviceable CC with reliable fire procs, radial stun, radial knockback & knockdown. Some of her perceived squishiness against hard-hitting enemies comes from the old animation inconsistency with Warframe that allows enemies to break free from certain CC animations and attack earlier than they should. 

Ugggghhh. I'm not against reworking Ember; I'm not even against completely removing WoF if she gets to be a strong CQC frame. But all these people who neither know nor care to know how Ember plays in different levels spouting WoF is lazy and that they're just trying to make her "more fun" "more interactive" or some other BS and concern trolling make me want to stick with max efficiency 200% power strength WoF just out of spite. 

Don't get me wrong, Ember has some CC that can help a lot. But most of her CC is knockdowns or fire procs. Just about every other frame has CC that's superior to knockdowns, and fire procs are a bit dodgy to rely on. I could use Ember for CC, or I could go Loki and remove all firearms in the area, Nyx and cause enemies to actually kill each other, Nova to make them all slow and explosive, Banshee to stun them, the list goes on. Ember can do CC, but she isn't very good at it compared to the competition, and doesn't really have much else to do.

As for WoF, I don't see how you could argue that it ISN'T uninteractive and somewhat lazy, considering its level of interaction doesn't extend past activating it once.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

WoF looks ok to me, only thing that it needs, is a Valkyr treatment, the more the ability is on, the more energy it costs.
Then maybe, i will stop seeing those Embers afk once and for all.

The real issue there is players going AFK, and not Ember.

[Entharias]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

The real issue there is players going AFK, and not Ember.

Ember also enables it, so... yea, she's a problem.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, Nakrast said:

Ember also enables it, so... yea, she's a problem.

Not for very long.  You can't solo AFK on a survival mission with Ember, especially someone with a decent WoF build because the supply drops occur outside of your vacuum radius.  The same is true for defence.

Please go try that on Ember and then come back here and let us know how well that doesn't work.

[Almagnus1]

4 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Don't get me wrong, Ember has some CC that can help a lot. But most of her CC is knockdowns or fire procs. Just about every other frame has CC that's superior to knockdowns, and fire procs are a bit dodgy to rely on. I could use Ember for CC, or I could go Loki and remove all firearms in the area, Nyx and cause enemies to actually kill each other, Nova to make them all slow and explosive, Banshee to stun them, the list goes on. Ember can do CC, but she isn't very good at it compared to the competition, and doesn't really have much else to do.

As for WoF, I don't see how you could argue that it ISN'T uninteractive and somewhat lazy, considering its level of interaction doesn't extend past activating it once.

And you clearly haven't seen what Accelerant can do with an Akstiletto Prime.....

You need to actually go play Ember, then come back here and talk about her.

[Entharias]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

Not for very long.  You can't solo AFK on a survival mission with Ember, especially someone with a decent WoF build because the supply drops occur outside of your vacuum radius.  The same is true for defence.

Please go try that on Ember and then come back here and let us know how well that doesn't work.

Dude.... if you actually took that ''afk'' seriusly, there is something wrong with you.
All i meant is that she can just cast her 4th and do pretty much nothing else, if not running around (ofc not in high lvl)

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Since when does Excalibur Exalted Blade require anything more than pointing me in the general direction of an enemy and spamming 'E'?

You've said it right there. "pointing me in the general direction of an enemy and spamming 'E'". You don't have to point in the direction of an enemy, or spam E, with WoF. It automatically fires in an AoE circle in all directions.

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ok, so look at Frost's Snowglobe.  That's pure utility, and no one complains about that skill.  Same about Vauban's cage.

Snowglobe and Bastille are fun utility, that allow you to work as a team and not be annoying by stealing all the kills. Utility CAN be fun, but WoF isn't that sort of utility, mostly because as always, you don't have to think about using it. 

5 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So in other words an Ember "stole" your kills, and you're here complaining about how the Ember stole your kills and should be nerfed...

Like we haven't seen THAT before....

You're forgetting about one key aspect in the argument here: Ember applies literally no effort and does very well, compared to other teammates who have to try to keep up. At low-med levels, WoF gets rid of fun and interactivity, and stops teammates from doing so at the same time. We shouldn't reward less effort with more kills, at any level. 

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

And you clearly haven't seen what Accelerant can do with an Akstiletto Prime.....

You need to actually go play Ember, then come back here and talk about her.

I don't really have a problem with Accelerant, it's probably her most interesting ability. Her other abilities are the problem. 

[Almagnus1]

3 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

Dude.... if you actually took that ''afk'' seriusly, there is something wrong with you.
All i meant is that she can just cast her 4th and do pretty much nothing else, if not running around (ofc not in high lvl)

Then that means your argument doesn't count.

2 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

You've said it right there. "pointing me in the general direction of an enemy and spamming 'E'". You don't have to point in the direction of an enemy, or spam E, with WoF. It automatically fires in an AoE circle in all directions.

Ok, so try soloing Heiracon with Ember and her all powerful WoF - let's see how many extractors you can complete before the infested eat you alive.

2 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Snowglobe and Bastille are fun utility, that allow you to work as a team and not be annoying by stealing all the kills. Utility CAN be fun, but WoF isn't that sort of utility, mostly because as always, you don't have to think about using it. 

If all you care about is your scorecard at the end of the mission, you're doing it wrong.

2 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

You're forgetting about one key aspect in the argument here: Ember applies literally no effort and does very well, compared to other teammates who have to try to keep up. At low-med levels, WoF gets rid of fun and interactivity, and stops teammates from doing so at the same time. We shouldn't reward less effort with more kills, at any level. 

And how often are you in mid to low level missions really?  Maybe THAT'S the problem here.

2 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I don't really have a problem with Accelerant, it's probably her most interesting ability. Her other abilities are the problem. 

Which really means you don't know how to play Ember - so you're basically making an argument out of ignorance.

[Entharias]

@Almagnus1 God, i gotta check your profile, gonna bet my &#! i will find a main Ember that doesn't want his toy being taken away.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

@Almagnus1 God, i gotta check your profile, gonna bet my &#! i will find a main Ember that doesn't want his toy being taken away.

Or maybe you'd find Excalibur and Inaros as the two higher played frames than Ember.

Besides, if that's the best counter you can do, you should stop right now because you clearly have lost this argument.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Almagnus1

[YUNoJump]

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ok, so try soloing Heiracon with Ember and her all powerful WoF - let's see how many extractors you can complete before the infested eat you alive.

Dude, you're just recycling old arguments now. If you can't find a better argument than "WoF isn't good at high levels" then there's no point in arguing with you, it's been covered many times even in just this thread. If an ability is useless at high level, but annoyingly powerful at low level, that's not good balance. Two wrongs don't make a right.

3 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

If all you care about is your scorecard at the end of the mission, you're doing it wrong.

I don't care about my scorecard, but Warframe is a shooter, and if WoF is taking away every single kill automatically, then teammates aren't given the opportunity to actually shoot stuff, i.e. play the game properly. If you loaded up a Call of Duty campaign but every single enemy is already dead and you just have to run to the next area forever, it wouldn't be fun, would it? same goes here. Again, this argument has been covered endlessly, it's not new and it's not good.

6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And how often are you in mid to low level missions really?  Maybe THAT'S the problem here.

I've said it before in this thread, mid to low level missions aren't just abandoned once you finish the starchart. Lith/Meso Relics, alerts, Syndicate missions, even just farming in general requires you to play low level stuff. I want to have fun wherever I choose to play.

8 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which really means you don't know how to play Ember - so you're basically making an argument out of ignorance.

You JUST said that accelerant + akstiletto prime is amazing, but then said that if you enjoy accelerant you're playing Ember wrong. So the best way to play Ember is also the wrong way? Besides, if the "right" way to play is just WoF, then I'd rather play her wrong.

[YUNoJump]

8 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Or maybe you'd find Excalibur and Inaros as the two higher played frames than Ember....

Good for you I guess?

[Almagnus1]

12 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Dude, you're just recycling old arguments now.

So are you, and you don't hear me crying about it.

Quote

I don't care about my scorecard, but Warframe is a shooter, and if WoF is taking away every single kill automatically, then teammates aren't given the opportunity to actually shoot stuff, i.e. play the game properly. If you loaded up a Call of Duty campaign but every single enemy is already dead and you just have to run to the next area forever, it wouldn't be fun, would it? same goes here. Again, this argument has been covered endlessly, it's not new and it's not good.

Which means you do actually care about that score card and you're sick of Ember taking your kills because you clearly can't hack it in the harder content.

Quote

I've said it before in this thread, mid to low level missions aren't just abandoned once you finish the starchart. Lith/Meso Relics, alerts, Syndicate missions, even just farming in general requires you to play low level stuff. I want to have fun wherever I choose to play.

So you're going to ruin the fun of the Ember players so you can have your safe space.  Gotcha.

Quote

You JUST said that accelerant + akstiletto prime is amazing, but then said that if you enjoy accelerant you're playing Ember wrong. So the best way to play Ember is also the wrong way? Besides, if the "right" way to play is just WoF, then I'd rather play her wrong.

My comment is about your comment relating to the other three abilities being bad.  Her 3 most definitely isn't, as a 2=> 3 will clear out most things on the star chart, and it's even helpful through the 50's on mobs.  Using a status weapon to clean up after that is also really good because of accelerant.

And also, ever tried WoF + Melee weapon?  That's actually a lot of fun.

11 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Good for you I guess?

It disproves their point greatly.  I mean, if my Excalibur is at 42.4% used, then it kinda shows I'm not an Ember main, but an Excalibur main - and Excalibur is also going to be the frame that I take into Plains for the first time.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Almagnus1

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

So are you, and you don't hear me crying about it.

I'm recycling my responses to your recycled arguments. I feel like mentioning recycled arguments is more important than "not crying about it" when recycling arguments is just going to lead to an infinite stream of arguing with no outcome. At this point we try and counter each other's arguments by using our arguments from three rotations ago, lets stop it or else there's no point.

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which means you do actually care about that score card and you're sick of Ember taking your kills because you clearly can't hack it in the harder content.

There's a difference between caring about score and caring about being able to get a score. I don't care about doing the best out of my teammates, but I do care about being able to keep up with my team without using zero-effort tactics.

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you're going to ruin the fun of the Ember players so you can have your safe space.  Gotcha.

If you're using WoF then you still have 30ish other frames to choose from if it's nerfed, if you're playing with a WoF user you have literally no option except to play with the WoF user or leave. On top of that, you're assuming that a rework will 100% make Ember literally unplayable, and that some people are playing the game solely so that they can watch WoF kill stuff. If the only reason you play Warframe is to watch WoF happen, maybe you should spend your time watching Michael Bay movies instead.

4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

My comment is about your comment relating to the other three abilities being bad.  Here 3 most definitely isn't, as a 2=> 3 will clear out most things on the star chart, and it's even helpful through the 50's on mobs.  Using a status weapon to clean up after that is also really good because of accelerant.

And also, ever tried WoF + Melee weapon?  That's actually a lot of fun.

My argument was more about the idea that Ember's abilities are clunky and outclassed by other Warframes by a long shot. Why use fire blast for area damage over time when I could use Hallowed Ground, Ravenous or Spores, why use it for a CC blast when I could use Avalanche, Radial Blind or Reckoning, etc etc.

How does WoF change using a melee weapon at all? Just explosions happening around you? Honest question here.

6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

It disproves their point greatly.  I mean, if my Excalibur is at 42.4% used, then it kinda shows I'm not an Ember main, but an Excalibur main - and Excalibur is also going to be the frame that I take into Plains for the first time.

Ok Excalibur is your main, how does that affect your argument at all other than a petty jab?

[Almagnus1]

8 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

There's a difference between caring about score and caring about being able to get a score. I don't care about doing the best out of my teammates, but I do care about being able to keep up with my team without using zero-effort tactics.

And there's also the other side of the coin, do your best, and screw the score.

8 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

If you're using WoF then you still have 30ish other frames to choose from if it's nerfed, if you're playing with a WoF user you have literally no option except to play with the WoF user or leave. On top of that, you're assuming that a rework will 100% make Ember literally unplayable, and that some people are playing the game solely so that they can watch WoF kill stuff. If the only reason you play Warframe is to watch WoF happen, maybe you should spend your time watching Michael Bay movies instead.

Yeah, like a Spova/Slowva, Effigy Chroma, Frost, Inaros, etc.  I can adapt to it - but I rather like the uniqueness of Ember compared to all the other frames out there.

What I don't want to see is all the frames homogenizing into variations of the same thing - which is exactly what's at the heart of all the Ember threads.

Diversity of frame abilities is good.  Homogenization of abilities is bad.

8 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

My argument was more about the idea that Ember's abilities are clunky and outclassed by other Warframes by a long shot. Why use fire blast for area damage over time when I could use Hallowed Ground, Ravenous or Spores, why use it for a CC blast when I could use Avalanche, Radial Blind or Reckoning, etc etc.

How does WoF change using a melee weapon at all? Just explosions happening around you? Honest question here.

It's cause the CC of it, means you can floor them and finish them fairly easily.  Go try it on something that's actually challenging and you'll see how different Ember plays with it.

If you really understood Ember, then this shouldn't be something I'd have to tell you.  Your reaction tells me you're firmly in the "Ember = WoF = bad" camp, and given how unreceptive you've been to another position, I doubt you'll ever change your opinion.

8 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Ok Excalibur is your main, how does that affect your argument at all other than a petty jab?

Because the argument is coming from someone playing Ember as an alt, which means that it's from the perspective of "this idea is completely and totally stupid" rather than a perspective of an Ember main which is "DON'T BREAK THE ONLY FRAME I KNOW HOW TO PLAY!!!!!".

[DatDarkOne]

It must be an interesting day indeed because I completely agree with Almagnus on this.  

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Two problems here:

1. content should be balanced at all levels. At lower levels you can use lower-tier guns, and newer players will likely be using said guns to progress there. You wouldn't bring an unforma'd Braton to Pluto, but you would bring it to Mercury. WoF is continuous, cheap, insta-kill damage in low levels, and unlike normal abilities, you don't have to spam-cast it to constantly kill enemies. If I took Frost to Earth and tried to kill stuff by repeatedly running forward and spamming 4, I'd get left behind. Not so with WoF.

2. There isn't a point in the game where WoF actually becomes interactive and fun, because its gameplay never changes past passively hitting enemies. I've made this quite clear, I don't really care about how POWERFUL WoF is, I care about the fact that it isn't really fun to use, because using it doesn't require thought or interaction. Everyone who likes WoF likes it because it lets them dash through missions and loot peacefully, you'll be hard-pressed to find people who say "I like WoF because I enjoy watching enemies randomly explode".

If I wanted to focus on Ember's actual ability to kill stuff then I'd talk about the rest of her kit as well. Accelerant is the only thing which doesn't drop off in damage at medium-high levels, and she has no decent CC other than Accelerant and the WoF augment. And even that's surpassed by other abilities. I'm talking about WoF because I want Ember to be fun more than I want her to be efficient or endgame worthy.

Mmmm....i take the same weapons everywhere. Maybe ill use my pistol against weaker enemies until they scale because the random noob grineer on earth isnt worth the risk of accidently killing myself, but theres absolutely no consideration for the level im going to whatsoever beyond that...

I like wof because i like seeing enemies explode....if only they actually exploded. I liked old overload because i liked seeing lights burst. 

Fun abilities? Yes, sign me up. Interactive abilities? Yes again! Nerfing Wof wont make it better or fun though. So whats the cool new idea?

[TheBrsrkr]

13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And there's also the other side of the coin, do your best, and screw the score.

I'm not sure you're understanding this correctly. The point isn't that the score is low, the point is there's nothing to get a score with. Killing the 6 enemies WoF missed isn't "doing your best" it's cleaning up someone else's dregs. 

 

13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

.

Yeah, like a Spova/Slowva, Effigy Chroma, Frost, Inaros, etc.  I can adapt to it - but I rather like the uniqueness of Ember compared to all the other frames out there.

Let's compare then, shall we?

Nova doesn't actually kill with her ability, you still have to shoot to kill, albeit much less and the explosions provide AoE capabilities regardless of weapon. However, it expands slowly, has to be cast in each room you have to clear, gobbling energy (which should be an issue but really isn't because pizzas) and  then taking time to kill the enemies anyway. 

Frost's bubble is good utility, but stationary. Ice Wave is good but not really that strong damage wise, and Avalanche does a ton of damage and strips armor, but has a short cool down, not that big a range and a long casting time. 

Effigy shouldn't even be here. It's stationary. It eats energy. It isn't that strong. It has to switch from target to target. You lose half your armor when you cast it. You have to retrieve it before you can cast it again. Both steps have a cast time. How does this compare to WoF in any real way? 

Inaros...... How, exactly? Sandstorm does damage, sure, but it isn't really that much comparatively, and those it doesn't kill it tosses everywhere on the map, and you then have to hunt them down. 

22 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

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What I don't want to see is all the frames homogenizing into variations of the same thing - which is exactly what's at the heart of all the Ember threads.

Diversity of frame abilities is good.  Homogenization of abilities is bad.

Literally nobody suggested this. In fact, this claim itself is ridiculous. Which of our 30 frames are homogenized? What frame plays like any other frame? Chroma doesn't play like Valkyr, Rhino or Inaros (or Trinity) but they're all tanks. Does Volt play like Ember? Does Oberon play like Volt? Does Harrow play like Trinity? Or do you mean that fireball is like Freeze but ice? This statement makes no sense. 

 

26 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

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It's cause the CC of it, means you can floor them and finish them fairly easily.  Go try it on something that's actually challenging and you'll see how different Ember plays with it.

If you really understood Ember, then this shouldn't be something I'd have to tell you.  Your reaction tells me you're firmly in the "Ember = WoF = bad" camp, and given how unreceptive you've been to another position, I doubt you'll ever change your opinion.

You mean like any other stun proc in the game? Most of the other abilities he mentioned would do the exact same thing AND have a better effect afterwards. World on Fire is garbage. All its good for is for lighting up underleveled enemies so you can just run past and kill them with no effort. You could be suggesting a way to fix this, since you yourself say it's not that useful in high content, but instead you're trying to convince people that you should have a right to run past enemies and  kill them with no effort while they sit and twiddle their thumbs or something else completely innocent that sounds really dirty. Of course he won't change his opinion if you tell him that. 

 

32 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Because the argument is coming from someone playing Ember as an alt, which means that it's from the perspective of "this idea is completely and totally stupid" rather than a perspective of an Ember main which is "DON'T BREAK THE ONLY FRAME I KNOW HOW TO PLAY!!!!!".

Yes, and? What exactly does this change? Nothing. Your argument is exactly the same. The reason you give your argument is completely irrelevant.