World on Fire, Again.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Let's compare then, shall we?

Nova doesn't actually kill with her ability, you still have to shoot to kill, albeit much less and the explosions provide AoE capabilities regardless of weapon. However, it expands slowly, has to be cast in each room you have to clear, gobbling energy (which should be an issue but really isn't because pizzas) and  then taking time to kill the enemies anyway. 

Frost's bubble is good utility, but stationary. Ice Wave is good but not really that strong damage wise, and Avalanche does a ton of damage and strips armor, but has a short cool down, not that big a range and a long casting time. 

Effigy shouldn't even be here. It's stationary. It eats energy. It isn't that strong. It has to switch from target to target. You lose half your armor when you cast it. You have to retrieve it before you can cast it again. Both steps have a cast time. How does this compare to WoF in any real way? 

Inaros...... How, exactly? Sandstorm does damage, sure, but it isn't really that much comparatively, and those it doesn't kill it tosses everywhere on the map, and you then have to hunt them down. 

That was more to demonstrate that I have other options to play around with than actually compare them to WoF.

Nice try for effort tho =)

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Literally nobody suggested this. In fact, this claim itself is ridiculous. Which of our 30 frames are homogenized? What frame plays like any other frame? Chroma doesn't play like Valkyr, Rhino or Inaros (or Trinity) but they're all tanks. Does Volt play like Ember? Does Oberon play like Volt? Does Harrow play like Trinity? Or do you mean that fireball is like Freeze but ice? This statement makes no sense. 

Well, it's what's going to keep happening.  First people QQ'd about Ash's bladestorm, and then that got nerfed like whatever the perceived OP ability was before that, and whatever the next perceived OP ability will be if WoF gets nerfed.  It's going to keep continuing until we're all basically playing with weapons as anything worth complaining about on the forums is actually strong enough to use in game.

If everything was balanced, this game would be boring as hell.

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You mean like any other stun proc in the game? Most of the other abilities he mentioned would do the exact same thing AND have a better effect afterwards. World on Fire is garbage. All its good for is for lighting up underleveled enemies so you can just run past and kill them with no effort. You could be suggesting a way to fix this, since you yourself say it's not that useful in high content, but instead you're trying to convince people that you should have a right to run past enemies and  kill them with no effort while they sit and twiddle their thumbs or something else completely innocent that sounds really dirty. Of course he won't change his opinion if you tell him that. 

WoF works just fine in Heiracon for the first four excavators... if you're not a noob about it.  It also works well when farming Nidus pieces, and there's other high level farms that I like using Ember on because IMO Ember shines when using it to farm with, especially if you have an arsenal to mop up after WoF.

Most players don't see the depth their because (quite frankly) they're too lazy to learn Ember and would rather just complain about her on the forums.

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Yes, and? What exactly does this change? Nothing. Your argument is exactly the same. The reason you give your argument is completely irrelevant. 

Hey, at least I've made one =)

Keep trying tho!

[traybong111]

Oh my god when will this utter idiocy end. 

Ember doesn't have the best CC, that we can all agree on, I just don't know why this is coming up as an argument for removing WoF. WoF is not a small part of what gives her soft-CC and survivability at a level where mobs stop getting oneshot by WoF. Removing WoF without giving her better defense and scaling is just going to be a straight nerf. However, without changing WoF at its very core--constant fire damage--it cannot provide the indirect defense it does for Ember because of how heat procs and tick damage work in this game. We could lose WoF's explosion damage and just make it guaranteed fire procs and have its damage derive purely from heat DoTs and at low enough levels it will still melt through mobs, because that's what low levels are, and we will still be having this conversation. Jesus fecking Christ I should not have to explain all of this I'm so sick of having the same fecking "discussion" with people who've never given more thought to Ember than waahhh an AoE ability waaahhh.

This is a feedback forum. Give Ember players what you're going to replace WoF with first instead of repeating the same fecking tired line. What changes would you make to Ember's defense so that, if not scaling better than before, she'd still have some form of longer, more persistent CC? What would you replace WoF with that gives her both interactivity and retains, if not improve, her role as damage-centric frame? If you can't think of anything, and all you can do is just point at Ember and say i don't like this thing, make it go away then you're being petulant and disingenuous. 

A tangent rant on a rant: I remember a lot of Ember players, myself included, were against channeled WoF during her rework, not in small part because many saw these exact whines coming but also because WoF's damage was never good to begin with and felt like DE was putting an unnecessary limit on a frame who already had trouble with scaling. But, internet being internet, not many users could agree on what her ultimate should end up being, and without a cohesive vision DE ended up taking the path of least resistance to buffing Ember. I'm not mad that the players back in 2015 couldn't agree on an ult idea (there were many good ideas to replace WoF, perhaps too many to choose from), I'm not that mad at DE for taking the safest possible route, but these types of threads (not just regarding Ember but a lot of other AoE frames) do irritate me because it's so transparent people just want to punish a frame rather than improve it. 

[TheBrsrkr]

12 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Well, it's what's going to keep happening.  First people QQ'd about Ash's bladestorm, and then that got nerfed like whatever the perceived OP ability was before that, and whatever the next perceived OP ability will be if WoF gets nerfed.  It's going to keep continuing until we're all basically playing with weapons as anything worth complaining about on the forums is actually strong enough to use in game.

If everything was balanced, this game would be boring as hell.

This shows that you were not  there when these changes happened and you don't know what game balance is or how it works. 

Ash didn't get nerfed because of people running through missions spamming it like WoF. Ash wasn't even nerfed on purpose zits just that the current bladestorm has bad implementation. It doesn't do less in its own, but due to the nature of the game less gets done because of the tagging system. Ash was changed because enemies that were part of bladestorm couldn't be hit by anything else, which threw off teamwork and took way too long, and bladestorm was about as interactive as watching moss grow on a rock in a desert. The people who wanted it changed were Ash players and people who were annoyed that they couldn't shoot anything while Ash casted his ability that wouldn't even kill the thing it was hitting. Ash wasn't even used that widely back then. Of course, they weren't expecting it to be as bad as it is now,but that's beside the point. 

As for game balance, it does not mean that everything in the game is the same strength or at the same power level. It means that everything falls into the flow state, which puts appropriate challenges to appropriate levels of skill and progress. I have a graph of this but I can't post that kind of stuff on my phone for some reason. Basically you plot a graph of challenges to progress and skill and you make a range at either side of the straight line.

Anything within the range is balanced, and  anything outside is not.  You either have something requiring a lot of skill for no reward, or you have something that has a lot of reward attached to it that requires very little skill. Both of these are a problem but the latter is more of a problem because players will always look for the easiest way to do something to get reward, whether it's fun or not. So it's either we expand the flow for the 30 or so weapons and frames to fit in it, something that would require a change to nearly every single mode and mechanic in the game, or we could bring those weapons and frames  back into the flow. It's a lot easier that way. 

34 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

.

WoF works just fine in Heiracon for the first four excavators... if you're not a noob about it.  It also works well when farming Nidus pieces, and there's other high level farms that I like using Ember on because IMO Ember shines when using it to farm with, especially if you have an arsenal to mop up after WoF.

Well sure. I could make the old Excalibur work there too. And he was garbage. 

That's not the point. It's not good because it doesn't offer Nutting but damage and a short CC. Rhino Stomp can do that. In a bigger range. And has defensive and a buffing abilityto go with it. What does World on Fire offer over Rhino stomp? I haven't finished War within yet, so no Nidus farming for me, but from what I know of Nidus I bet you were fighting infested. You know, the type of enemy that likes to crowd together. The type of enemy that's weak against fire.  The type of enemy fire would therefore be especially good at. This is called a niche. We're, looking at the bigger picture here. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That was more to demonstrate that I have other options to play around with than actually compare them to WoF.

Nice try for effort tho =)

Well, it's what's going to keep happening.  First people QQ'd about Ash's bladestorm, and then that got nerfed like whatever the perceived OP ability was before that, and whatever the next perceived OP ability will be if WoF gets nerfed.  It's going to keep continuing until we're all basically playing with weapons as anything worth complaining about on the forums is actually strong enough to use in game.

If everything was balanced, this game would be boring as hell.

WoF works just fine in Heiracon for the first four excavators... if you're not a noob about it.  It also works well when farming Nidus pieces, and there's other high level farms that I like using Ember on because IMO Ember shines when using it to farm with, especially if you have an arsenal to mop up after WoF.

Most players don't see the depth their because (quite frankly) they're too lazy to learn Ember and would rather just complain about her on the forums.

Hey, at least I've made one =)

Keep trying tho!

Usually I would say T3 survival or something, but I don't understand this bloody relic system.  However, we're talking about both mechanics and applications. 

The mechanics of WoF are not interactive in any capacity. It also does lackluster damage to armor rendering it nearly meaningless against heavily armored Grineer, which is to say most of them. Meanwhile, in missions people want to run, it does just enough damage to kill everything before anyone else can do anything about it. This leaves players miffed. The reason they come complain about her on the forums isn't because they're too lazy to learn, it's because they don't really care what it is, they care about what is doing. Nobody wants to follow someone around and pick up loot while everything fun around them bursts into flame and dies. Enough missions like that and you get threads like these. Wouldn't you complain of you joined a mission but all the enemies are already dead and you just walk around and collect loot? That's essentially what's happening.  

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

As for game balance, it does not mean that everything in the game is the same strength or at the same power level. It means that everything falls into the flow state, which puts appropriate challenges to appropriate levels of skill and progress. I have a graph of this but I can't post that kind of stuff on my phone for some reason. Basically you plot a graph of challenges to progress and skill and you make a range at either side of the straight line.

Anything within the range is balanced, and  anything outside is not.  You either have something requiring a lot of skill for no reward, or you have something that has a lot of reward attached to it that requires very little skill. Both of these are a problem but the latter is more of a problem because players will always look for the easiest way to do something to get reward, whether it's fun or not. So it's either we expand the flow for the 30 or so weapons and frames to fit in it, something that would require a change to nearly every single mode and mechanic in the game, or we could bring those weapons and frames  back into the flow. It's a lot easier that way. 

And yet, with each and every Prime access and warframe introduced into this game, we have had a steady power creep occurring.

It's almost at the point where I could make a sound argument that giving away Soma Prime with the Prime Access is generally OK because Soma Prime isn't that good nowadays  Scindo Prime is a write off because of power creep because it's basically "here's a shiny prime melee weapon for you to use" as it's not that good compared to MANY other weapons.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I haven't finished War within yet, so no Nidus farming for me, but from what I know of Nidus I bet you were fighting infested. You know, the type of enemy that likes to crowd together. The type of enemy that's weak against fire.  The type of enemy fire would therefore be especially good at. This is called a niche. We're, looking at the bigger picture here.

Yep, and that's exactly what WoF is... a niche ability.  It's really good anti-infested, but it's utter garbage against the grineer, especially as they get more armor.  It's meh against hte corpus.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Usually I would say T3 survival or something, but I don't understand this bloody relic system.  However, we're talking about both mechanics and applications. 

Yeah... you've been out at least a year, so maybe you need to shelf what you know and readjust before posting again....

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Meanwhile, in missions people want to run, it does just enough damage to kill everything before anyone else can do anything about it.

Or more likely "in missions that I run"....

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Nobody wants to follow someone around and pick up loot while everything fun around them bursts into flame and dies.

I don't mind it if I see someone else on Ember and I'm in a Lith or Meso mission using it to grind traces and work on MR - it means I get a very quick and easy mission so I'm on to the next mission all that much faster.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Wouldn't you complain of you joined a mission but all the enemies are already dead and you just walk around and collect loot? That's essentially what's happening.  

No, because it means I get to get that mission done quickly and I'm on to the next mission all that much faster.  It's quite the timesaver.

[TheBrsrkr]

6 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

And yet, with each and every Prime access and warframe introduced into this game, we have had a steady power creep occurring.

It's almost at the point where I could make a sound argument that giving away Soma Prime with the Prime Access is generally OK because Soma Prime isn't that good nowadays  Scindo Prime is a write off because of power creep because it's basically "here's a shiny prime melee weapon for you to use" as it's not that good compared to MANY other weapons.

And yet it's still a lot easier even after this to nerf the few on top than to buff the wry 200 below. Yes, powercreep is still an issue (though less so now that DE appears to want to level off where we are now. Can't say I agree with it, but that's what they decided) but solving the issue won't be possible if no one acknowledges that it is an issue. 

 

6 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Yep, and that's exactly what WoF is... a niche ability.  It's really good anti-infested, but it's utter garbage against the grineer, especially as they get more armor.  It's meh against hte corpus..

I view this as a problem. No frame should only be effective against one faction. All frames should be reasonably compotent against all enemies at reasonable levels. Make it more useful and less brain dead P4TW that DE had been fighting (slowly) for years. Saryn is a good example. Spore, Molt and Miasma work well together to be effective at any level. Toxic lash..... Saryn isn't a melee frame, but with the right build I guess it works fine. I'm not a Saryn player but  I often see the results. Why can't Ember be like that? 

 

7 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

.

Yeah... you've been out at least a year, so maybe you need to shelf what you know and readjust before posting again....

Or more likely "in missions that I run"....

You would think that, but absolutely nothing has changed in what we are discussing. These are the same issues from 3 years ago, with the same arguments and the same responses. The only difference is we always get one step closer each year. I'm looking forward to the year people see Rhino Stomp as overpowered, because then that would truly be the end of nuking as Rhino Stomp is probably the worst at it. At least, we would be if DE didn't keep adding back nukes they don't want us to use. T3 defense or Sortie 3, it's not important where, it's important how. 

What, so I don't count as people? Doesn't matter who or why, Only what and how.

 

Now, here is where the real issue lies in the perception of the problem. 

7 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

"....

I don't mind it if I see someone else on Ember and I'm in a Lith or Meso mission using it to grind traces and work on MR - it means I get a very quick and easy mission so I'm on to the next mission all that much faster.

No, because it means I get to get that mission done quickly and I'm on to the next mission all that much faster.  It's quite the timesaver.

This is where I think most people differ ideologically, for want of a better word, in the 2 camps. You view the missions as a stepping stone, something to be done before the thing you actually want to do. I view the missions as the things I actually want to do. The problem is that these things are mutually exclusive in the terms of this discussion. How do we work psst that? 

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

And yet it's still a lot easier even after this to nerf the few on top than to buff the wry 200 below. Yes, powercreep is still an issue (though less so now that DE appears to want to level off where we are now. Can't say I agree with it, but that's what they decided) but solving the issue won't be possible if no one acknowledges that it is an issue. 

Or maybe, due to power creep, a three year old issue isn't an issue anymore?

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I view this as a problem. No frame should only be effective against one faction. All frames should be reasonably compotent against all enemies at reasonable levels. Make it more useful and less brain dead P4TW that DE had been fighting (slowly) for years. Saryn is a good example. Spore, Molt and Miasma work well together to be effective at any level. Toxic lash..... Saryn isn't a melee frame, but with the right build I guess it works fine. I'm not a Saryn player but  I often see the results. Why can't Ember be like that? 

Or maybe being good against a faction is what makes a frame niche.  If all the frames were equally good against all the factions, then they would be homogenized.

Frame equality is a completely stupid idea because the only way it works is by making every single frame the same, so stuff like Titania's Razorwing or Octavia have their soul ripped out so they can fit into the same box that you want to shove all the other frames into.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You would think that, but absolutely nothing has changed in what we are discussing. These are the same issues from 3 years ago, with the same arguments and the same responses. The only difference is we always get one step closer each year. I'm looking forward to the year people see Rhino Stomp as overpowered, because then that would truly be the end of nuking as Rhino Stomp is probably the worst at it. At least, we would be if DE didn't keep adding back nukes they don't want us to use. T3 defense or Sortie 3, it's not important where, it's important how. 

What, so I don't count as people? Doesn't matter who or why, Only what and how.

Do you have any idea how strong the angry octopus Nidus is OUT OF THE BOX?

Rhino is so weak these days that he's basically obsolete.

You need to get good, because if you think Ember is remotely strong or OP compared to the newer frames, you're off your rocker.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Now, here is where the real issue lies in the perception of the problem. 

This is where I think most people differ ideologically, for want of a better word, in the 2 camps. You view the missions as a stepping stone, something to be done before the thing you actually want to do. I view the missions as the things I actually want to do. The problem is that these things are mutually exclusive in the terms of this discussion. How do we work psst that? 

From my experience, most other players (especialy those in the Lith and Meso missions) view them as races to be done so they can get on to other things.

Keep up, or get left behind.

That's kinda how things work in this game, and if you're really trying to smell the roses on your mission, you really need to be solo because otherwise you're gonna be viewed as an AFKer.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

20 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I'm not sure you're understanding this correctly. The point isn't that the score is low, the point is there's nothing to get a score with. Killing the 6 enemies WoF missed isn't "doing your best" it's cleaning up someone else's dregs. 

 

Let's compare then, shall we?

Nova doesn't actually kill with her ability, you still have to shoot to kill, albeit much less and the explosions provide AoE capabilities regardless of weapon. However, it expands slowly, has to be cast in each room you have to clear, gobbling energy (which should be an issue but really isn't because pizzas) and  then taking time to kill the enemies anyway. 

Frost's bubble is good utility, but stationary. Ice Wave is good but not really that strong damage wise, and Avalanche does a ton of damage and strips armor, but has a short cool down, not that big a range and a long casting time. 

Effigy shouldn't even be here. It's stationary. It eats energy. It isn't that strong. It has to switch from target to target. You lose half your armor when you cast it. You have to retrieve it before you can cast it again. Both steps have a cast time. How does this compare to WoF in any real way? 

Inaros...... How, exactly? Sandstorm does damage, sure, but it isn't really that much comparatively, and those it doesn't kill it tosses everywhere on the map, and you then have to hunt them down. 

Literally nobody suggested this. In fact, this claim itself is ridiculous. Which of our 30 frames are homogenized? What frame plays like any other frame? Chroma doesn't play like Valkyr, Rhino or Inaros (or Trinity) but they're all tanks. Does Volt play like Ember? Does Oberon play like Volt? Does Harrow play like Trinity? Or do you mean that fireball is like Freeze but ice? This statement makes no sense. 

 

You mean like any other stun proc in the game? Most of the other abilities he mentioned would do the exact same thing AND have a better effect afterwards. World on Fire is garbage. All its good for is for lighting up underleveled enemies so you can just run past and kill them with no effort. You could be suggesting a way to fix this, since you yourself say it's not that useful in high content, but instead you're trying to convince people that you should have a right to run past enemies and  kill them with no effort while they sit and twiddle their thumbs or something else completely innocent that sounds really dirty. Of course he won't change his opinion if you tell him that. 

 

Yes, and? What exactly does this change? Nothing. Your argument is exactly the same. The reason you give your argument is completely irrelevant. 

Dont act like novas molecular prime is hard to use. It dumbs down the game and can be spammed just as easily as anything else. It still provides a slow and damage buff at 100 power strength. I imagine it only has room to grow more broken at max strength, but iv only used nova at 100 strength, and to tell the truth, she is much too fragile for her own good. She is the only one that needs molecular prime, its entirely different playing with a nova then it is playing as nova. But molecular prime is not hard to spam.

[Almagnus1]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Dont act like novas molecular prime is hard to use. It dumbs down the game and can be spammed just as easily as anything else. It still provides a slow and damage buff at 100 power strength. I imagine it only has room to grow more broken at max strength, but iv only used nova at 100 strength, and to tell the truth, she is much too fragile for her own good. She is the only one that needs molecular prime, its entirely different playing with a nova then it is playing as nova. But molecular prime is not hard to spam.

Dude... do the fun thing:

Spova + Javlok!

[TheBrsrkr]

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Or maybe, due to power creep, a three year old issue isn't an issue anymore?

Or maybe being good against a faction is what makes a frame niche.  If all the frames were equally good against all the factions, then they would be homogenized.

 

It is no longer the main issue, but it is still an issue. Of course you wouldn't worry about your bed being on fire if your house was burning down. It's not as important, but when you put out your house fire you still wouldn't want a burning bed. 

Most frames are good against all factions,in case you didn't notice,and they still aren't homogenized. Some are better than others against certain factions in certain incidents, but they're all a significant benefit in all situations.  World on fire is only good against one faction and bad at all others. It is too niche. 

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Frame equality is a completely stupid idea because the only way it works is by making every single frame the same, so stuff like Titania's Razorwing or Octavia have their soul ripped out so they can fit into the same box that you want to shove all the other frames into.

I don't really remember asking for frame equality. Making world on fire useful against all factions isn't going to make her the same as every other frame in any real sense. Why do people always talk about things I don't suggest?

 

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

.

Do you have any idea how strong the angry octopus Nidus is OUT OF THE BOX?

Rhino is so weak these days that he's basically obsolete.

You need to get good, because if you think Ember is remotely strong or OP compared to the newer frames, you're off your rocker.

You're completely missing the point. The point is that Rhino's nuke is weak. It's still a nuke. People are still going to use it on low levels to wipe out enemies because it has a big range. It's eventually going to be a problem and will eventually be nerfed for encouraging such a play style, as well it should. But it would be the last of its kind BECAUSE it is so weak. People would try literally every other nuke in the game before it gets to that point. 

You know, I did say that World of Fire sucks, right? That it's a bad ability that's only good for low level speed farming and infested? Why would I think it's OP if I said all that. I said it's a problem because it's both uninteractive and is not conducive to good team gameplay. It's broken, not overpowered. All overpowered things are broken, but not all broken things are overpowered. 

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Or maybe, due to power creep, a three year old issue isn't an issue anymore?

Or maybe being good against a faction is what makes a frame niche.  If all the frames were equally good against all the factions, then they would be homogenized.

Frame equality is a completely stupid idea because the only way it works is by making every single frame the same, so stuff like Titania's Razorwing or Octavia have their soul ripped out so they can fit into the same box that you want to shove all the other frames into.

Do you have any idea how strong the angry octopus Nidus is OUT OF THE BOX?

Rhino is so weak these days that he's basically obsolete.

You need to get good, because if you think Ember is remotely strong or OP compared to the newer frames, you're off your rocker.

From my experience, most other players (especialy those in the Lith and Meso missions) view them as races to be done so they can get on to other things.

Keep up, or get left behind.

That's kinda how things work in this game, and if you're really trying to smell the roses on your mission, you really need to be solo because otherwise you're gonna be viewed as an AFKer.

And from my experience, and the experiences of all those in the thread who have complaints about it, most other players actually want to play through the mission. It's still going to be fast, because we have 6 forma Heks and Soma Primes and whatever have you, but we actually get to use them. So here we are at the impasse, again. 

 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Dont act like novas molecular prime is hard to use. It dumbs down the game and can be spammed just as easily as anything else. It still provides a slow and damage buff at 100 power strength. I imagine it only has room to grow more broken at max strength, but iv only used nova at 100 strength, and to tell the truth, she is much too fragile for her own good. She is the only one that needs molecular prime, its entirely different playing with a nova then it is playing as nova. But molecular prime is not hard to spam.

The point I was trying to make is that Molecular Prime doesn't actually kill enemies. It's slow expanding and can't be cast immediately after you cast the first one. It's not a nuke by itself. You still have to shoot to activate it. People can still shoot enemies before you I. E. Still play. Sure, it's not a fun to shoot one guy and all the other guys automatically explode, but it's at least something. 

[Almagnus1]

11 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The point I was trying to make is that Molecular Prime doesn't actually kill enemies. It's slow expanding and can't be cast immediately after you cast the first one. It's not a nuke by itself. You still have to shoot to activate it. People can still shoot enemies before you I. E. Still play. Sure, it's not a fun to shoot one guy and all the other guys automatically explode, but it's at least something. 

So let me get this straight:

Nova creating a situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is fine.

Ember creating situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is a problem.

 

Does anyone else see the problem here?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

19 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So let me get this straight:

Nova creating a situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is fine.

Ember creating situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is a problem.

 

Does anyone else see the problem here?

I see the problem. One is boring gameplay. One other is also boring gameplay. So so different from each other.

Edited October 6, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[Almagnus1]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I see the problem. One is boring gameplay. One other is also boring gameplay. So so different from each other.

If Nova gets a pass, Ember should too.

[TheLexiConArtist]

16 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

This is where I think most people differ ideologically, for want of a better word, in the 2 camps. You view the missions as a stepping stone, something to be done before the thing you actually want to do. I view the missions as the things I actually want to do. The problem is that these things are mutually exclusive in the terms of this discussion. How do we work psst that? 

Many people in the pro-WoF camp would probably enjoy the mechanics being reworked (again) so that they are not tantamount forced to group with other people who they do not otherwise need and may in practice render irrelevant in the pursuit of gameplay efficiency.

I farm relics on other Warframes in groups, or I farm relics alone with Ember (or otherwise, according to efficiency). I farm traces alone, with Ember. I would run relics alone with Ember, but to make the Relic system even plausibly superior to void keys, I must be in a squad with others, that I might have a selection of rewards and increase the proportional rate of non-common part acquisition per personally-invested relic.

 

That's a subsection of one of the camps, though.

• Those who abide the usage of WoF
  • Those who will WoF publicly with disregard for fellow players
  • Those who will perhaps WoF privately unless directly pressured otherwise
• Those who will not abide the usage of WoF.

 

Sadly, the systems of the game causing that pressure are not within our direct control, and therefore for this subsection (efficiency without discourtesy) the only reconciliation that can be sought involves DE changing the systems of the game in accordance.

Otherwise, they can just shrug at the anti-WoF section of the playerbase and say:

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

So let me get this straight:

Nova creating a situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is fine.

"It's at least something" is not the equivalent of "this is a desirable outcome". So no, it is not fine, it's just not as bad. There are factors that mitigate it. 

[-N7-Leonhart]

Yeah, more interaction is needed either way. Sure, powers are can be meant to do a lot of damage in a wide area. However, doing nothing for long periods of time and still killing everything is of course not okay.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

Yeah, more interaction is needed either way. Sure, powers are can be meant to do a lot of damage in a wide area. However, doing nothing for long periods of time and still killing everything is of course not okay.

Um no.  You don't stand still with ember unless you've started channeling then swapped to your operator so your operator can pick up energy in the Ember kill field... even then you're not actually "doing nothing".

[Almagnus1]

8 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

"It's at least something" is not the equivalent of "this is a desirable outcome". So no, it is not fine, it's just not as bad. There are factors that mitigate it. 

No there's not, and you know it.

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Um no.  You don't stand still with ember unless you've started channeling then swapped to your operator so your operator can pick up energy in the Ember kill field... even then you're not actually "doing nothing".

Sure, you are running to the extraction from the very moment you started the mission. Better now?

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

No there's not, and you know it.

Slowly expanding wave? 

Not being able to cast another one till the first wave has expanded? 

No damage of its own? 

Casting animation? 

Other players can still interact with enemies, albeit extremely slowed down and made to die in one shot? 

 

"Nuh uuhhhhh" isn't an argument. 

[Almagnus1]

9 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Slowly expanding wave? 

Not being able to cast another one till the first wave has expanded? 

No damage of its own? 

Casting animation? 

Other players can still interact with enemies, albeit extremely slowed down and made to die in one shot? 

 

"Nuh uuhhhhh" isn't an argument. 

The same is true about your "argument" on WoF.

[Almagnus1]

9 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

Sure, you are running to the extraction from the very moment you started the mission. Better now?

That's description fits like 90% of the missions we play, especially groups of non-Ember frames.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

9 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Slowly expanding wave? 

Not being able to cast another one till the first wave has expanded? 

No damage of its own? 

Casting animation? 

Other players can still interact with enemies, albeit extremely slowed down and made to die in one shot? 

 

"Nuh uuhhhhh" isn't an argument. 

Thr ability slowly expanding is its strength, not its weakness, especially if your camping. The closest enemies to you are going to be the closest regardless, its the ones in the back piling up to meet their maker who would either not be affect because they hadnt run into ramge yet or be pulverized because your ability remains on map slowly expanding for a lonflger period. You affect way more enemies the longer your ability remains on map. I almost wish volts useless discharge moved as slow. It affects everything on the map with maxed range. There is no noticeable or meaningful duration, as enemies affected by it remain so for ridiculous amounts of time, the cast time delay is nothing compared to nekros or volt, again absolutely nothing of consequence....insignificant, nil, zero. It takes about as long to cast fear on nekros and does more (of course its an ult) but where fear affects only the nemies in range, gives an armor reduction amd slow, molecular prime gives a ridiculous damage boost, slow, amd slowly expands, meaning it affects more enemies. 

You are stealing all meaningful interaction away from your teammates when you cast molecular prime. If you like waiting in a endless mission for the enemy level to rise sufficiently to wjere it is providing a fun challenge, nova is your worst nightmare. She resets the game at least 20/30 levels back and makes what would have been an interesting mission a complete snore fest. And because she is so squishy, she desperately needs molecular peime, where as anyone else who came prepared for the mission is just left twiddling their thumbs and trying hard to remember why they even play this game. 

[-N7-Leonhart]

32 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's description fits like 90% of the missions we play, especially groups of non-Ember frames.

Well, not 90% of the missions I play. For example, if I can choose between a Survival and Capture in a fissure, I always go for the Survival.

[TheBrsrkr]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Thr ability slowly expanding is its strength, not its weakness, especially if your camping. 

This means that players can still interact with the enemies before the wave hits them. And kill them. Which is the point. "Can" is the key word here. It's not a sure thing. And as I said, IT IS STILL BAD. it just leaves the tiniest  sliver of possibility, and  at least the pretense that you're affecting the mission in some way, which Ember does not. 

 

27 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

The same is true about your "argument" on WoF.

"No you" isn't an argument either. Unlike what you just did, I gave my reasons why World of Fire is a broken skill. The original post was this:

 

15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

So let me get this straight:

Nova creating a situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is fine.

Ember creating situation where uninteractive killing of mobs is a problem.

 

Does anyone else see the problem here?

In which you allude to Wold on Fire and M Prime being the same thing. I say M Prime is less of an issue in this context simply because she still allows the possibility and pretense of anyone else playing the game. I point out that it is because of these mitigating factors. You say there are no mitigating factors. I correct you. 

Where, exactly, am I simply denying the existence of something you pointed out? Better yet, what have you pointed out in this exchange? Nothing. If you're just here to bait post, quit wasting everyone's time and bumping the thread. If you're not, bring something of value to discuss. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

26 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

This means that players can still interact with the enemies before the wave hits them. And kill them. Which is the point. "Can" is the key word here. It's not a sure thing. And as I said, IT IS STILL BAD. it just leaves the tiniest  sliver of possibility, and  at least the pretense that you're affecting the mission in some way, which Ember does not. 

 

"No you" isn't an argument either. Unlike what you just did, I gave my reasons why World of Fire is a broken skill. The original post was this:

 

In which you allude to Wold on Fire and M Prime being the same thing. I say M Prime is less of an issue in this context simply because she still allows the possibility and pretense of anyone else playing the game. I point out that it is because of these mitigating factors. You say there are no mitigating factors. I correct you. 

Where, exactly, am I simply denying the existence of something you pointed out? Better yet, what have you pointed out in this exchange? Nothing. If you're just here to bait post, quit wasting everyone's time and bumping the thread. If you're not, bring something of value to discuss. 

Its impossible while playing with a nova to kill everything before she primes it. It can be done, but the wave will hit things where they spawn that you havnt touched yet. Like Ember, its just easier to play on the opposite side of the map away from the nova. Like Ember, she affects gameplay. There is a little area of ground beneath an enemy that lights up before the flame actually ignites them, when enemies are affected by wof, so its the same as me saying that you have every opportunity to attack enemies before they are hit by wof because you can see that light. But you wouldnt do that, because its ridculous. Youd either leave, or play away from the Ember if it really upset you that much.

The only way to truly outkill a nova would be to have an actually effective amprex, and then it would be broken and overpowered, because you arent allowed to out kill fellow tenno. Of course it would be broken. Its broken as is on low level missions, like Ember, but thats ok because everyone knows those are trash mobs.

Edited October 6, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Trash mobs arent entertaining. And never will be