World on Fire, Again.

[Almagnus1]

We're gonna try this one more time... as I think I may have to drown the horse in the lake again...

So touching on the chart at http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor#Warframe_Armor_and_Effective_Health specifically...

Armor    Warframe
700    Valkyr Prime
600    Valkyr
450    Atlas
350    Chroma
300    Frost, Frost Prime, Nidus
275    Rhino Prime
250    Excalibur Prime
225    Excalibur, Oberon Prime, Saryn Prime, Wukong
200    Inaros
190    Rhino
175    Nezha, Saryn
150    Oberon, Ash Prime
125    Ember Prime
100    Ember, Equinox, Vauban Prime, Volt Prime
65    Ash, Banshee Prime, Hydroid, Ivara, Limbo, Loki, Loki Prime, Mag, Mag Prime, Mesa, Mirage, Nekros, Nekros Prime, Nova, Nova Prime, Titania
50    Nyx Prime, Vauban
15    Banshee, Nyx, Trinity, Trinity Prime, Volt, Zephyr

What I find interesting is the base armor correlates to how much DPS the frame is generally capable of.  Less armor means squishier frame which indicates a glass cannon design approach to many of the more powerful frames.

Nidus is interesting because he's so high, but I'd argue it's generally fine because Nidus has less HP than Inaros, and like Inaros, Nidus doesn't have shields. Valkyr is also interesting because while the 4 is really strong, Valkyr is also fairly durable due to base armor being the highest of all the warframes.

The thing to keep in mind with all the abilities: They aren't working in a vacuum, so what is possible with, say, Nova, Hydroid, or Banshee definitely is relevant to Ember.

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Soketsu said:

Hum sorry, but I was talking about you

You know, may you should really start to work on yourself,

conversations on the forum with you end up quite often like this

I don't like beating around the bush. 

If he wanted so discuss any points, he would have read my entire posts. He wants to say I don't give any argument for world on fire being broken when I posted that argument repeatedly 3 pages ago, fine. If he just wanted to trade insults, we could make a thread on off topic and have at it. I am fully aware I am stubborn. I am fully aware I go into a conversation thinking I am right. How many people start an argument thinking they're  wrong. What I want, as you would see in other  threads if I was around that much,  is for you to tell me that I am wrong. 

For instance, when I say world on fire's stun isn't as good as anyone else's, he could tell me that the stun also goes alone with a chunk of damage when you stack accelerant at high levels. I would say stacking accelerant is a band aid to actually getting damage done. We could bicker back and forth and eventually come to some kind of conclusion where World on fire would ... Idk, enemies set in fire with world on fire take extra damage or something, or leave a trail of fire behind them. Someone would tell me that's garbage and suggest something better, or an improvement on the concept or something. In the end, if we would all leave if not satisfied, then at least with a better idea of what we and the other side wants. 

[Almagnus1]

8 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

For instance, when I say world on fire's stun isn't as good as anyone else's, he could tell me that the stun also goes alone with a chunk of damage when you stack accelerant at high levels. I would say stacking accelerant is a band aid to actually getting damage done. We could bicker back and forth and eventually come to some kind of conclusion where World on fire would ... Idk, enemies set in fire with world on fire take extra damage or something, or leave a trail of fire behind them. Someone would tell me that's garbage and suggest something better, or an improvement on the concept or something. In the end, if we would all leave if not satisfied, then at least with a better idea of what we and the other side wants. 

Or maybe...

I've had enough experience with posters like you in various game forums (including Battle.net) to know that you're like talking to a brick wall, so there's very little point in trying to converse with you, as all you're going to do is ignore whatever's said, declare whoever's responding is wrong, and then restate what you had said as if you had "won" the argument.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through that act.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

In the end, if we would all leave if not satisfied, then at least with a better idea of what we and the other side wants. 

Many have tried just that only to either be dismissed by you, diverted on a unrelated tangent by you, or confused by you to the point that they just stop bothering only to watch you do the same thing again with another.  

If multiple people are saying virtually the same thing to or about you, then wouldn't that be hint enough that your idea or point of view might have some flaws.  

[TheBrsrkr]

24 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Many have tried just that only to either be dismissed by you, diverted on a unrelated tangent by you, or confused by you to the point that they just stop bothering only to watch you do the same thing again with another.  

Have I done that? Maybe. I'm not the arbiter of a forum. I'm not always right. But as far as I can see, I can only assume I have done that around people who have denied the existence of the issue at all. I repeatedly say world of fire is broken. Yes, I have realized that I have stopped saying why, but I thought it would be clear by now. My mistake. World of Fire is Broken because it is not conducive to team play in a game about team play. It is effective enough to affect other players at lower levels in the sense that all enemies catch fire and die before they can respond, and Ember provides little to no effort to that cause. Ember has no real control over Word on fire, only if it is on or not on. There is no reason for World on fire not to be on. Past level 50 or so, the effects of World on Fire drop into irrelevance, but instead of going into normal gameplay, people quit the game and  start over at a lower level. This will eventually be curbed by DE, as it has before in the past. What I am looking for is a solution that:

Lets other people play along with an Ember using world on fire without having to jump through any extra hoops

Gives Ember more direct control over world on fire than just an on/off switch

Makes world on fire useful at all reasonable levels while remaining unique and encouraging good team gameplay 

Makes it a choice to make as an ability, rather than a "have this on all the time for extra damage" type of ability. 

Is a solution that is accepted by both the players and DE. 

 

What I remember your argument to be (I'm not saying that's what it is) is that you should just not play with Ember if she is a problem to you. This is not a solution to any of the problems that I have with her. Another argument I keep hearing is either git gud or stop playing at lower levels, the first of which is patronizing and the second of which is unavoidable. I play lower levels for the same reasons as Ember plays lower levels, but with a different end goal, as I had pointed out earlier. Your end views the mission as a means to an end, whereas I view the mission as an end to my means. How do we address this? 

Edited October 6, 2017 by TheBrsrkr
Didnt finish

[Almagnus1]

Quote

But as far as I can see, I can only assume I have done that around people who have denied the existence of the issue at all.

Just because a flat earther says the world is flat doesn't mean they're automatically right - nor does it mean that their arguments on WHY the earth is flat are worth considering.

Quote

World of Fire is Broken because it is not conducive to team play in a game about team play.

The exact same argument can be made about many other abilities.

Quote

It is effective enough to affect other players at lower levels in the sense that all enemies catch fire and die before they can respond, and Ember provides little to no effort to that cause.

I can basically take any random warframe and weapon and succeed at any mission below level 20, which includes all the Lith and Meso relics.  If I'm playing Excalibur EB, then I can spam E with EB out and do almost the exact same thing as what you're attributing to Ember, and there's several other frames that I can do this on as well on low level missions.  Again, this is not unique to Ember.

Quote

Ember has no real control over Word on fire, only if it is on or not on.

Hydroid says "hi!"

Quote

There is no reason for World on fire not to be on.

I've ran out of power (or just encountered that bloody eximus unit), and I'm waiting on Zenurik to regen my mana pool, so I don't have WoF on.

Quote

Past level 50 or so, the effects of World on Fire drop into irrelevance,

Actually no, the knockdown effects from WoF (with the Synidcate mod) improves your survivability.  Please git gud with Ember.

Quote

but instead of going into normal gameplay, people quit the game and  start over at a lower level.

That's an opinion, not an argument.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Almagnus1

[(PSN)JCM_Unlimited]

Embers WOF is useless for anything aside from low level killing which is a problem in and of itself. And if you don't have the augment you'll die faster than she already does in higher levels because it doesn't give reliable CC otherwise. Not to mention the 5 enemy target max it has. It really isn't that great of an ability overall. It's need to be changed but not a nerf, it needs a buff in the form of a revisit or synergy with the way it interacts with her other abilities.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

just throwing this into the mix: what if world on fire, instead of just exploding enemies without player input, granted the ember and her team a buff that gave all shots a 25/50/75/100% chance to deal an aoe fire proc (and then the augment adds a small chance to proc knockdown)

[Almagnus1]

5 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

just throwing this into the mix: what if world on fire, instead of just exploding enemies without player input, granted the ember and her team a buff that gave all shots a 25/50/75/100% chance to deal an aoe fire proc (and then the augment adds a small chance to proc knockdown)

But would that really be a "World on Fire" then?

The name is key here, as it's a skill that gives the expectation that (when used) the world bursts into flames - which is what it currently does.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Almagnus1

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

But would that really be a "World on Fire" then?

The name is key here, as it's a skill that gives the expectation that (when used) the world bursts into flames - which is what it currently does.

nah it currently just creates explosions.

[Almagnus1]

5 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

nah it currently just creates explosions.

Which is Baytastic!

Edit:
Back to your suggestion, my survivability on Ember depends on having that knockdown 100% of the time.  Make it a proc, and Ember's survivability goes to zero in high level content.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Almagnus1

[TheBrsrkr]

11 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

just throwing this into the mix: what if world on fire, instead of just exploding enemies without player input, granted the ember and her team a buff that gave all shots a 25/50/75/100% chance to deal an aoe fire proc (and then the augment adds a small chance to proc knockdown)

You mean like Inferno Ammo in Mass Effect? It's good as a bonus, but it isn't really fitting to Ember. I mean, look at her abilities.  Damage, damage, buff to her type of damage, Team buff? It has to do something else with that. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I realize this, but this too is part of the problem. 

Part of my problem is that I don't really farm like other people. No "H Bere need buff DPS", just pop a mission on Senda, Uranus or Ceres and go kill things,depending on the weapon. I've decided to avoid Void whatever you call it until I really figure out the key system with these fancy new words that don't mean anything unless a friend invites me, and I generally just do the 3 sorties a day then go faff about in a void survival or defense for 40 minutes like I'm used to, or go play something irrelevant solo for an hour or something. There's a lot for me to relearn.

What I don't need to relearn is that any public or some private squad inevitably starts out with an Ember running around burning everything to death for as long as it can. I expect this on Akkad, because infested are infested. I don't care. Those are stomping grounds and have been for years. A problem, yes, but I could work past  that. Sortie 1 and 2,however are meant to be a challenge. So is the Kuva Fortress, I assume. So far I'm intrigued, but generally dissatisfied. 

And almost invariably there has been an Ember walking by burning everything to death. I am fully aware this kind of thing only happens on low content, and that is one of the reasons why it matters so much. Lower content is where people farm. Lower content is actually where most players spend most of the game. And right now, lower content doesn't even matter for reasons I repeatedly stated. And that would be fine (well it wouldn't be fine, but you know what I mean) if it led to something at the end, you know?

Back in the days of T4, people did the same thing with other frames for 40 waves and I hated it, but I at least understood it. People wanted to get past the 20-40 levels and actually get to fight at 60 and beyond. Players don't even do that now. It's spam for 20 waves or run around burning thing s for 20 minutes and then quit. Quit to do the same thing again because it's more efficient to do so. Now if you want to waste your time doing that alone,I would be fine, but there's 2 problems here, one being that some don't do it alone and it works anyways, leading everyone who actually came to a survival to survive actually just came  to sweep the floors. The other reason is that DE is going to do it anyway, so you might as well be the one to dictate how. I remember your name, and you were here for the Excalibur nerf before he had EB. How many 40 page threads were made about that, some of which I created and you were a part of? How may threads about how he is okay because he could be spanked by Bombards and leeching Eximi? How many threads about Saryn being better, about Mesa being better? How many threads with the exact same arguments that Almagnus1 here is using? Plenty. And what did it change? Nothing. Excalibur still got nerfed into irrelevance, and they told us why. This is not the gameplay they wanted. This was not a part of their vision. They don't want us to sit in one spot. They don't want us to spam our way to the end. Youd think they made it clear. And to their credit, they did make it harder, at least in some respects. 

But 2 years later I come back into the game and behold there is still spam. And there is still the same defense. He's right in part about this, with the wrong conclusion. 

What DE does is watch and wait. They see a lot more than we think. They used to have this monthly (I think it was monthly)  thing where they discussed some of the stats of the game with a wider lens. Which enemy killed the most people per faction. Which frame was used the most. What abilities were used the most. They have all that at their disposal to make a decision. They wait for ALL the data to come in. They wait for ALL the threads to run their course and blow over. They wait for us to stop.  We never do. Then they act. Then things get nerfed. Hard. 

If we could acknowledge like we did with Valkyr and Saryn that there IS a problem, and we work towards a solution together, we can direct DE into a less brutal stance on this. Valkyr got her claws buffed by melee damage and her timer removed. We said what was bad, and offered suggestions. What did they do? Increase energy drain and add a (basically useless) damage refund system so you would have to think about using hysteria. Saryn drained too much energy for her combos and it didn't have that great of an effect. We made this clear and  gave suggestions. Toxic Lash now refunds energy and Spores spread a lot farther than they originally did. Sure, it wasn't what we originally suggested be done, but it was at least along the lines of what we came up with. And we could at least be happy about that. 

So here I am, arguing with someone who thinks the EHP of a frame should decide whether it's broken or not. A guy who simultaneously thinks Ember sucks at anything level 60 and telling me you can use her at higher levels. A guy unwilling to discuss any point I bring up. As always, I will watch, I will post to the best of my ability, and the forum, and DE, will decide. 

Iv been here arguing for abilities to be better for a long time....it just isnt really working very well. People can type 4 page essays all day long here, but usually every post boils down to wanting the game to be easier. And that means crowd control. Youll notice after Egate, Nekros spawns less loot with desecrate making it a healing and energy regen ability mostly and Mags greedy pull was nerfed, but Banshees sound quake wasnt touched at all. You can say DE is working towards making warframe less campy, but i feel like until they realize aoe ultimates, wether crowd control or damage, are the problem, it wont happen. They seem completely fine with the status quo. They ruined volt this way, by giving him an aoe stun, but crowd control is just as game breaking as damage frames. Its why Nova and Ember should be included in a post together.

I personally think the easiest way out is treating Embers kit as a mix between the reworks done for Saryn and Excalibur. But making frames more like each other is a real problem too. So we need suggestions. Its why im against just talking about wof as a problem amd not something that could be expanded on.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Iv been here arguing for abilities to be better for a long time....it just isnt really working very well. People can type 4 page essays all day long here, but usually every post boils down to wanting the game to be easier. And that means crowd control. Youll notice after Egate, Nekros spawns less loot with desecrate making it a healing and energy regen ability mostly and Mags greedy pull was nerfed, but Banshees sound quake wasnt touched at all. You can say DE is working towards making warframe less campy, but i feel like until they realize aoe ultimates, wether crowd control or damage, are the problem, it wont happen. They seem completely fine with the status quo. They ruined volt this way, by giving him an aoe stun, but crowd control is just as game breaking as damage frames. Its why Nova and Ember should be included in a post together. 

I understand this position and I think the same thing often, but what else can we do? This forum is the only way that we can interact with them, besides for the extremely inefficient Devstream chat. We know they read it, and they sometimes respond to us, but otherwise the interaction is sorely lacking and the changes come way too slow, if at all. But what else can we do but persevere?

If I could think of a way to deal with all this in one fell swoop, I would have made a thread about it every month. Only thing I could think of is diminishing returns based on enemy level but they already said they're not doing that. I just keep posting in the hopes that something will change. And give them credit, they at least try, which is a lot more than a lot of other developers so. But it's always too little and too late. 

My hope is that Plains of Eidolon is a sufficiently large chunk of new content they  can put up as a wall so they can start revisiting old content for an extended period of time. One can dream. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

.I personally think the easiest way out is treating Embers kit as a mix between the reworks done for Saryn and Excalibur. But making frames more like each other is a real problem too. So we need suggestions. Its why im against just talking about wof as a problem amd not something that could be expanded on.

I would like both conversations to happen;the acknowledgement of the problem also shows the issues that we have to fix. But that's just my preference. The reason I don't suggest many changes to abilities to caster frames is that I've noticed over the years that my suggestions are just notoriously bad. I think it's because I'm not really a caster kind  of person, and it's reflected in my frame choices and play style.  Rhino, Frost and Chroma and aren't exactly cast intensive frames and have abilities that last a long time so designing an ability you have to cast every time you need an effect is a difficult concept for me to develop. I try to keep track of the Retune All the Frames thread so that people better than me can give me an idea of what can really be done. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by TheBrsrkr
New is such a weird word to censor.

[Almagnus1]

13 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

my suggestions are just notoriously bad.

At least they can be taught!

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

32 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

At least they can be taught!

Now you are just being mean

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I understand this position and I think the same thing often, but what else can we do? This forum is the only way that we can interact with them, besides for the extremely inefficient Devstream chat. We know they read it, and they sometimes respond to us, but otherwise the interaction is sorely lacking and the changes come way too slow, if at all. But what else can we do but persevere?

If I could think of a way to deal with all this in one fell swoop, I would have made a thread about it every month. Only thing I could think of is diminishing returns based on enemy level but they already said they're not doing that. I just keep posting in the hopes that something will change. And give them credit, they at least try, which is a lot more than a lot of other developers so. But it's always too little and too late. 

My hope is that Plains of Eidolon is a sufficiently large chunk of new content they  can put up as a wall so they can start revisiting old content for an extended period of time. One can dream. 

I would like both conversations to happen;the acknowledgement of the problem also shows the issues that we have to fix. But that's just my preference. The reason I don't suggest many changes to abilities to caster frames is that I've noticed over the years that my suggestions are just notoriously bad. I think it's because I'm not really a caster kind  of person, and it's reflected in my frame choices and play style.  Rhino, Frost and Chroma and aren't exactly cast intensive frames and have abilities that last a long time so designing an ability you have to cast every time you need an effect is a difficult concept for me to develop. I try to keep track of the Retune All the Frames thread so that people better than me can give me an idea of what can really be done. 

Anything is better than nothing. If you think about it, theres no reason to worry about posting bad ideas. People are constantly doing it, even DE. I do it all the time, so much so that people have generally grown accustomed to it and dont even reply anymore (although it could also be people generally only pay attention to their own ideas).Titania is a caster frame done terribly wrong -My opinion.  Also, caster frames need a less strict energy economy with a kit based on something on diminishing returns. A frame that relys on abilities ever so often to boost survivability and a frame that relies on ability usage to get breathing room from certain death will never be on equal footing if they operate with the same energy economy...ability spam is not evil if it can be decently regulated. At least all the cast delays DE is fond of. First abilities dont need those restrictive cast delays, but DE puts them there. Terrible for casters.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Anything is better than nothing. If you think about it, theres no reason to worry about posting bad ideas. People are constantly doing it, even DE. I do it all the time, so much so that people have generally grown accustomed to it and dont even reply anymore (although it could also be people generally only pay attention to their own ideas).Titania is a caster frame done terribly wrong -My opinion.  Also, caster frames need a less strict energy economy with a kit based on something on diminishing returns. A frame that relys on abilities ever so often to boost survivability and a frame that relies on ability usage to get breathing room from certain death will never be on equal footing if they operate with the same energy economy...ability spam is not evil if it can be decently regulated. At least all the cast delays DE is fond of. First abilities dont need those restrictive cast delays, but DE puts them there. Terrible for casters.

The energy economy getting an arrow to the knee does concern me.  I'm hoping that operator mode 2.0 address that issue well... and we're not just boned because of it.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which is Baytastic!

Edit:
Back to your suggestion, my survivability on Ember depends on having that knockdown 100% of the time.  Make it a proc, and Ember's survivability goes to zero in high level content.

ahh but it you are using a rapid-fire gun, the fact that it is a proc becomes irrelevant (just to clarify, when i say small chance, i mean like 25%)

[Inquizitor]

Yes, Ember is broken against lvls up to 50 (which is basically 99% of the Warframe missions, the 1% are raids and sorties)

Dont forget to mention Mesa...but not till lvls 50, its still a press 4 to win, with no scaling.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

14 minutes ago, Inquizitor said:

Yes, Ember is broken against lvls up to 50 (which is basically 99% of the Warframe missions, the 1% are raids and sorties)

Dont forget to mention Mesa...but not till lvls 50, its still a press 4 to win, with no scaling.

mesa is balanced differently though: 

1. Not only does it use 5x more energy per second
2. it also renders you immobile (barring initial momentum upon activation), preventing you from utilizing the hidden evasion mechanic
3. peacemaker hampered by line of sight, world on fire is not
4. it requires actual input in order to use it, not MUCH input, but it still requires you to aim it.
5. also mesa's peacemaker's output damage is limited to the ability itself, it's a LOT of damage, but ember's world on fire still allows full usage of your whole kit
6. world on fire still works when downed (according to the wiki, correct me if im wrong), a benefit not afforded to peacemaker
7. the same applies when you enter operator mode, allowing you to use your operator whilst being assisted by WoF (something that will become more useful with warrior tenno mode)
8. ember can seek out energy orbs whilst channeling world on fire, whereas you must deactivate peacemaker to chase down energy orbs
9. lastly, as far as im aware, mesa cannot use her other abilities whilst channeling peacemaker

[Inquizitor]

1 minute ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

mesa is balanced differently though: 

1. Not only does it use 5x more energy per second
2. it also renders you immobile (barring initial momentum upon activation), preventing you from utilizing the hidden evasion mechanic
3. peacemaker hampered by line of sight, world on fire is not
4. it requires actual input in order to use it, not MUCH input, but it still requires you to aim it.
5. also mesa's peacemaker's output damage is limited to the ability itself, it's a LOT of damage, but ember's world on fire still allows full usage of your whole kit
6. world on fire still works when downed (according to the wiki, correct me if im wrong), a benefit not afforded to peacemaker
7. the same applies when you enter operator mode, allowing you to use your operator whilst being assisted by WoF (something that will become more useful with warrior tenno mode)
8. ember can seek out energy orbs whilst channeling world on fire, whereas you must deactivate peacemaker to chase down energy orbs
9. lastly, as far as im aware, mesa cannot use her other abilities whilst channeling peacemaker

Did you know about her 3rd ability? You completly forgot about that. It makes her 99% imunne to all ranged damage, which is approximately 80% of the Warframe enemies (the 20% are infested), so even while immobile, she is completly free to stay and not need to worry about dying.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 minute ago, Inquizitor said:

Did you know about her 3rd ability? You completly forgot about that. It makes her 99% imunne to all ranged damage, which is approximately 80% of the Warframe enemies (the 20% are infested), so even while immobile, she is completly free to stay and not need to worry about dying.

95% damage reduction, which is nothing compared to knocking down every enemy with firequake, preventing them from attacking to begin with.
(also valkyr can get >80% damage reduction just off her base armour+steel fiber)

secondly, mesa cannot recast shattershield whilst peacemaking, and with an efficiency build (so that you can get the most out of peacemaker) you get 10 seconds out of shattershield

lastly, if you have ever gone up against ancient disruptors, you know that their aura reduces damage from warframe abilities by 90%, allowing infested enemies to close the gap and destroy you (world on fire is also affected by this, but you can still use your normal weapons with it active)

[Inquizitor]

5 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

95% damage reduction, which is nothing compared to knocking down every enemy with firequake, preventing them from attacking to begin with.
(also valkyr can get >80% damage reduction just off her base armour+steel fiber)

secondly, mesa cannot recast shattershield whilst peacemaking, and with an efficiency build (so that you can get the most out of peacemaker) you get 10 seconds out of shattershield

lastly, if you have ever gone up against ancient disruptors, you know that their aura reduces damage from warframe abilities by 90%, allowing infested enemies to close the gap and destroy you (world on fire is also affected by this, but you can still use your normal weapons with it active)

Ember is probably most broken WF vs lvls 40-50 max.

But Mesa dmg output never drops off. No matter if that specific target is a Bombard lvl 80 with Augmented Armor during a sortie, Mesa still kills it with no effort. And that is what matters most.

[Almagnus1]

10 hours ago, Inquizitor said:

Yes, Ember is broken against lvls up to 50 (which is basically 99% of the Warframe missions, the 1% are raids and sorties)

Dont forget to mention Mesa...but not till lvls 50, its still a press 4 to win, with no scaling.

If this is true, Ember would be able to solo Heiracon until the level 50s start spawning.  However, the level 30 infested ancients are strong enough, and buff enough troops, that if you don't shoot them first, you will get overwhelmed.

Please, play Ember, and don't spew hate at her.