I think the DE should take another look at Bladestorm

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Okay. No BS (that doesn't stand for Blade Storm).

Ash now has a pointless 4 for the following reasons:

1) It's clunky as hell

2) Drains more energy than the frame has capacity for

3) The "reduce/remove cutscene" goal was never met, in fact got worse

4) The ability flat out doesn't work outside of super specific infinite energy builds

5) Teleport (and by extension Fatal Teleport) is flat out better as an assassination tool

6) For group clearing any weapon, specially melee (thanks to Smoke Screen's bonus melee damage) can clear small groups better and for a fraction of the cost, with more interactivity

7) At high levels it's outperformed by SS+Melee, Properly modded guns, Fatal Teleport

8) At lower levels is outperformed by freaking Shuriken

9) Overlaps with Teleport in function and mechanics (in fact Fatal Teleport uses the same trigger BS uses!)

Simply the ability in it's current form is a gordian knot of terrible design and needs to be scrapped and reworked. As I mentioned somewhere else, the cutscene could be salvaged as a secondary optional feature for Teleport.

^ Starts off claiming  "no b.s." then proceeds to create a list of exaggeration and B.S. 

Okay. Have fun guys. 

[Nazrethim]

AND something else.

Previously, BS had a defined function and involved some tactical thinking.

If you Bladespammed you often got stuck, that's because the ability was intended to be a clean up not your all-solving-power. I did use old BS whenever I could without actually bothering my team, because 1) I didn't abuse it and 2) I'm not an idiot.

What I would do (and was probably how it was intended) was to scout the area (invisible or not), dispatch targets I may get stuck on if I Bladestormed them with Teleport(Fatal or not) or guns or melee, THEN bladestorming to clear the grunts.

That way both Blade Storm and Teleport, while having similar mechanics, fulfilled two different functions.

The ability was fine, it was stupid players combined with broken infinite energy and efficiency that broke the dam and allowed the crazy to flow.

 

Now let's look at current BS.

How it's intended to use? Well, DE is good at giving subtle and not so subtle visual and audio cues. The fact that the ability is described as "Ash enters a deep focus state" (or some sh*t like that) and that the game turns sepia or monochromatic implies the ability isn't intended to be active at all times, rather Ash entering a quick focus mode to mark enemies then go about his business.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

^ Starts off claiming  "no b.s." then proceeds to create a list of exaggeration and B.S. 

Okay. Have fun guys. 

Prove me wrong without involving the words "Efficiency" "Zenurik" "Arcane" "Trinity" or "Riven" in your argument.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

46 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

His 3 is for high priority targets. You know whatever is left standing after the trash mobs are dead. 

 

I mean yeah, yours can't?

But why not just simply kill the whole group of enemies with a couple swipes with bladestorm?

Again, if your weapons are so strong then why use fatal teleport, wouldn't it be more beneficial for you to use your "god" weapons to take out those priority targets.

Doesn't make much sense to dislike a multi-targeting ability that can destroy groups of lvl 100 enemies due to your god weapons, but use a single target ability even tho weapons are supposed to excel at single target damage.

Edit: trust me I'm more confused than you.

Edited October 3, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[Hypernaut1]

13 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Prove me wrong without involving the words "Efficiency" "Zenurik" "Arcane" "Trinity" or "Riven" in your argument.

You already have your mind made up. Anyone else reading this can either try it for themselves or buy into your BS. 

I haven't once mentioned efficiency, zenurik ( which I dont even prefer with Ash) Trinity or Riven at all.

Your agenda is simply to promote your corny rework anyway. So of course you plan to exaggerate the flaws and claim how great your kitchen table fanfic exalted weapon idea will be.

Sorry...I guess this is taking an ugly turn. But it's annoying when people exaggerate so much into an echo chamber of saltines trying to spread their salty opinion as absolute truth about a viable and deadly ability like BS.

Ughhh...im going to read some Mag rework threads with actual sensible and reasonable criticisms. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

23 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You already have your mind made up. Anyone else reading this can either try it for themselves or buy into my BS. 

FTFY

Spoiler

chill, I'm kidding

Quote

I haven't once mentioned efficiency, zenurik ( which I dont even prefer with Ash) Trinity or Riven at all.

You would eventually, so I just dismantled your argument beforehand. Saves time and sanity for both

Quote

Your agenda is simply to promote your corny rework anyway. So of course you plan to exaggerate the flaws and claim how great your kitchen table fanfic exalted weapon idea will be.

I'm not actually promoting it, and in fact you are the one mentioning it in the first place.

Also, I didn't exagerate anything, I just told the cold harsh truth.

Quote

Sorry...I guess this is taking an ugly turn. But it's annoying when people exaggerate so much into an echo chamber of saltines trying to spread their salty opinion as absolute truth about a viable and deadly ability like BS.

I also prefer to avoid conflicts, but I am fond of brutal honesty. BS's damage is fine, I never called that into question, but big damage numbers don't make for a great (or viable) ability. It's good and solid mechanics what do that, and current BS is sh*tty at a mechanical level, the worst in fact the ability has been, even surpassing closed beta bladestorm in s*ckiness.

Quote

Ughhh...im going to read some Mag rework threads with actual sensible and reasonable criticisms. 

That would be nice. I'm frankly not familiar with Mag to understand what are her problems and if reworks could fix them and how (though I'm positive there must be several worthile threads out there, hope springs eternal!)

Anyway I just said what I had to say and there's no point staying here. I'm returning to my slumber

Edited October 3, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 hours ago, bioned said:

Thanks for the tip.

As for "Maybe you are playing Ash the wrong way" part I have to disagree with.

I always try to NOT alert enemies and kill as few enemies as I can (when playing solo ofc) to complete the objective. Is that wrong? 

I play Ash because my play style is concealment and stealthy and that's what Ash is. Current BS is NOT concealment and stealth.

Also, what about the part where I asked how is BS more op than before?

 

Cheers

 

What is your BS Dmg?

Mine is 17k per hit

If this is not OP then i don't know what is.

and instead of wasting time using stealth movement, try as i told u prisma shade or shade, Arcane trickery, then you will be able to concentrate more on BS.

Anyways, all i wanted to say ASH is op as he is, he does not need any Re-work

[SandSquash]

4 hours ago, bioned said:

I don't know why people keep telling me go play other mass murder frames, because that's not the point I made at all I guess I still have to work on my English.

Has nothing to do with your english, My point i was trying to make was changing bladestorm to a clone based kill ability completely changes the balance of what the warframe was ment to be. The cutscene while annoying for some, control the power of the frame. Lets imagine this, say DE changes bladestorm to be a clone that does the whole bladestorm and we are free to continue fighting, how else will they have to nerf the entire class to bring it into line.

I only stated try other frames because if you want to murder a whole room with bladestorm but not do the cutscene, then perhaps try other frames. Was a suggestion to explore options you may enjoy more.

 

Said he was in a good place(even with some of the targeting issues) do to the shuriken mods stripping armor off bosses being so useful, Fatal teleport builds being so vital in the end game to push heavy units like Nox and bombard eximus's into the ground, and the utility of a squad smoke screen being pretty fun aswell for an alternative playstyle.

I personally love the cutscenes since i use bladestorm only on select groups of enemies, but i suppose all have their own style

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

What is your BS Dmg?

Mine is 17k per hit

If this is not OP then i don't know what is.

and instead of wasting time using stealth movement, try as i told u prisma shade or shade, Arcane trickery, then you will be able to concentrate more on BS.

Anyways, all i wanted to say ASH is op as he is, he does not need any Re-work

Because you are only looking at the raw numbers without actually understanding what the actual problem is. Damage is fine as it is, that was never questioned, we argue that the mechanics of the ability are garbage.

 

4 hours ago, SandSquash said:

Has nothing to do with your english, My point i was trying to make was changing bladestorm to a clone based kill ability completely changes the balance of what the warframe was ment to be. The cutscene while annoying for some, control the power of the frame. Lets imagine this, say DE changes bladestorm to be a clone that does the whole bladestorm and we are free to continue fighting, how else will they have to nerf the entire class to bring it into line.

I only stated try other frames because if you want to murder a whole room with bladestorm but not do the cutscene, then perhaps try other frames. Was a suggestion to explore options you may enjoy more.

While I agree that just letting clones do the work is indeed a sh*tty idea, the current ability is garbage too at a mechanical level. It is redundant and no longer relevant.

4 hours ago, SandSquash said:

Said he was in a good place(even with some of the targeting issues) do to the shuriken mods stripping armor off bosses being so useful, Fatal teleport builds being so vital in the end game to push heavy units like Nox and bombard eximus's into the ground, and the utility of a squad smoke screen being pretty fun aswell for an alternative playstyle.

And that's great, but we are not calling into question Ash's other abilities (besides requiring augments to stay relevant, which isn't that bad either). We are pointing out that BS is completely pointless if you stop to think about it. I already listed the problems with it on page 3 and provided a solid argument of why old was mechanically superior, therefore a better designed ability and more balanced.

4 hours ago, SandSquash said:

I personally love the cutscenes since i use bladestorm only on select groups of enemies, but i suppose all have their own style

That's great, but think about it, wouldn't have been better if the cutscenes were kept but made entirely optional? That would be a win-win situation for both those who like them and those who don't (I personally do like them, but watching that clipshow for long periods of time when a SS+melee would have taken care of the threat in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the energy makes the ability just not worth it)

[Shad0wWatcher]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's great, but think about it, wouldn't have been better if the cutscenes were kept but made entirely optional? That would be a win-win situation for both those who like them and those who don't (I personally do like them, but watching that clipshow for long periods of time when a SS+melee would have taken care of the threat in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the energy makes the ability just not worth it)

It could be so that a cutscene only shows when an enemy is about to be killed instead of bladestorm only taking half of the HP or something

[Nazrethim]

35 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

It could be so that a cutscene only shows when an enemy is about to be killed instead of bladestorm only taking half of the HP or something

That's a posible solution, and it should be easy to code.

 I have an alternative idea: Merge current Blade Storm with Teleport.

How does it work? Simple: Marking remains and becomes Ash¡s second passive giving some minor buff/debuff while costing no energy. Teleport havin 2 functions: Tap the button to do current Teleport, or an "Overdrive" function activated by holding the key for 1s (fixed with automatic release to avoid holding the key forever) to initiate what is current BS on all targets marked.

This keeps the cutscene, but makes it entirely optional, and opens room for a new ultimate to be added that actually synergizes with the other abilities and isn't p4tw. It could be a nuke, a stance, a summon or a buff for all I care (though I'm most inclined to a stance featuring the wristblades since Ash is a melee oriented frame)

Edited October 3, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)Oussii]

16 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Because you are only looking at the raw numbers without actually understanding what the actual problem is. Damage is fine as it is, that was never questioned, we argue that the mechanics of the ability are garbage.

No they are not

IMO, it's so easy and practical to a point where i consider that ASH is the easiest frame to use.

That's my opinion, it may be different from yours, still i find ASH perfect as it is now.

As an example:

If you have 10 enemies lvl 80+ facing you, what is the time you need to kill them without ASH and the time you need using ASH (also without getting damaged or downed)

I went and tested it, maybe you should do that also in the relay, then let me know

Cheers

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

No they are not

IMO, it's so easy and practical to a point where i consider that ASH is the easiest frame to use.

That's my opinion, it may be different from yours, still i find ASH perfect as it is now.

As an example:

If you have 10 enemies lvl 80+ facing you, what is the time you need to kill them without ASH and the time you need using ASH (also without getting damaged or downed)

I went and tested it, maybe you should do that also in the relay, then let me know

Cheers

Controlled experiments on Simulacrum aren't comparable to actual missions.

Which enemy faction are we talking about? Which Unit type is? Is Ash at default values?

To expand on your experiment.

Let's say we are talking 10 lvl80 Grineer Lancer units. Ash is at default power values and armed with a modless Nikana.

Shuriken deals 500 Slash damage+ ~43% Bleed per second for 9s. That would probably allow to kill a target with 2 shuriken hitting  it. Shuriken costs 25 energy and shoots 2 Shuriken. So you would need 250 energy to actually kill all those 10 and would take a while to do so (you will probably be dead by then).

Oh, did I mention Ash Prime only has 150 energy?

Moving on.

Smoke Screen would grant him 8s invisibility as well as increasing melee damage by x8 and costs 35 energy. So Ash can cast that 4 times for a total of 32s. Ash will be safe while invisible and will hit like a truck with the nikana, melee combo counter will assist in increasing damage so Ash may wipe those in 2-3 casts.

Teleport opens enemies to Finisher, which would make Ash instantly kill the target due to how powerful finishers are. Costs 30 energy so Ash will only have access to 5 of them.

Blade Storm. 15 energy per mark, 10 enemies max with default, hits for 2000 Finisher damage then ~43% Bleed for 6s. And if SS is active the cost is reduced to 10. Each animation takes 1.5s to play, for a total of 15s

Now, as you can see, on paper BS is very powerful. But that's on paper.

In reality, BS is an energy sink. At 15 per MARK not per enemy and 3 marks on each. 10 enemies cost 150 to 450 energy (the max energy capacity of the frame by stacking mods is around 440). And that's 10 enemies. How many do we face in any given mission?

Let's talk about another thing: Scaling. While BS does lot of damage baseline and it ignores armor, it's total damage falls off around lvls 80, requiring multiple marks and combo counter to keep killing, therefore, more energy spent. Teleport on the other hand has access to a mod that halves the cost to 15 if the unit is killed, and Melee finishers are supremely more powerful than Blade Storm, bleed procs be damned, and that's before Covert Lethality.

There goes another issue: Overlap

Blade Storm and Teleport do the exact same thing. Ash teleports and stabs a dude. The problem is that Fatal Teleport makes Ash's 3 superior to BS in almost every sense. The only upside of BS is that you can queue the targets you want stabbed. In terms of cost, time and effect they are almost the same, IF we account for single marking, which as I said falls off around lvl 80s when you need to start multimarking, at which point BS cost triples to 45, 3 times the cost of fatal teleport.

Can you see where I'm going?

The ability only works on paper, but in practice is a gordian knot of terrible design. Sword Art Online is better designed than current Blade Storm, and as I previously pointed out, Old Blade Storm was superior in design and was actually fine, the problem was stupid broken builds used by stupid players. Ash is way way far from perfect, he still has issues that DE didn't bother to solve with the revisit, or that flat out were created by the revisit, with Blade Storm being the most obvious example.

And tell me, if Ash was really perfect as you claim, why are all this issues still here and why are threads STILL showing up and the Megathread STILL going?

The reason for that is that savvy players who actually know what good and bad design are, what DE is actually capable of , what were and are Ash's problems and what could have been done to solve them, are still pushing for DE to revisit Ash again and fix the mess. Problem is we still have complacent hotheads who can't nor want to see reality and understand what we are trying to explain and say stupid things like "ash is fine" or "with [insert build requiring rare/expensive/broken stuff stacked] I can do just fine!". And they do so even when faced with undeniable evidence and oppose changes that would be good for them too. It's both sad and frustrating.

[Hypernaut1]

48 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

No they are not

IMO, it's so easy and practical to a point where i consider that ASH is the easiest frame to use.

That's my opinion, it may be different from yours, still i find ASH perfect as it is now.

As an example:

If you have 10 enemies lvl 80+ facing you, what is the time you need to kill them without ASH and the time you need using ASH (also without getting damaged or downed)

I went and tested it, maybe you should do that also in the relay, then let me know

Cheers

It's really not as hard to use as some people make it out to be. My only gripe with marking is that I wish there was a better way mechanically to 3x mark a target, but I don't mind the concept of needing to 3x mark.

I really don't understand why some people claim to have such a hard time using the move.

I agree with you. Ash if a rather easy frame to use. He's one of my lazy frames to pick if I just want to cheese content. There is no content in this game he struggles to perform well in.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[bioned]

56 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It's really not as hard to use as some people make it out to be. My only gripe with marking is that I wish there was a better way mechanically to 3x mark a target, but I don't mind the concept of needing to 3x mark.

I really don't understand why some people claim to have such a hard time using the move.

I agree with you. Ash if a rather easy frame to use. He's one of my lazy frames to pick if I just want to cheese content. There is no content in this game he struggles to perform well in.

He does require a decent control on solo defense and excavate

[Hypernaut1]

20 minutes ago, bioned said:

He does require a decent control on solo defense and excavate

He does lack CC now compared to his old nuke, He can't instantly delete a group of enemies approaching an excavator anymore without a bottleneck. 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

And tell me, if Ash was really perfect as you claim, why are all this issues still here and why are threads STILL showing up and the Megathread STILL going?

I will only reply to this point (it does not mean that i agree with what you wrote

Users are still talking About BS for several reasons, and it is becoming a megathread since ASH is a good topic to argue about.

IMO, if players would really know how to manage ASH and play it, they would never complain about it again.

PS: to whom ever is on XBOX and think otherwise, feel free to join me on a mission of your choice and will prove to you my point of view.

Cheers

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

Users are still talking About BS for several reasons, and it is becoming a megathread since ASH is a good topic to argue about.

IMO, if players would really know how to manage ASH and play it, they would never complain about it again.

Well, when a frame is unfairly nerfed instead of reworked and DE tries to sell tha as an upgrade by dangling a shiny skin in front of our faces, arguments are expected to appear. It has just too many mechanical issues.

If by "how to manage" you mean "get Arcane energize or strike, get an attack speed riven, get Primed Fury, get as much Efficiency as possible" then yes, he is easy to use. The problem here is that BS doesn't work on it's own. It's so terrible mechanically that you need to stack a lot of stuff just to make it usable. Not great, just usable. It overlaps with Teleport, it is outperformed by pretty much anything any decent player has ast it's disposal. If you have the means to make BS usable, it means you can actually outperform it easily and it's just a flavor thing.

Managing Ash is easy really. But you are presented with two choices: Build him how you like, and build him to be able to use BS. I do just fine with whatever build I want to use, so long as I don't activate that waste of an ability slot.

And people who complain are the ones who aren't in denial about the current state. From a meta build bubble nothing seems to be changed, that's because DE did the opposite of what they should have done: the problem was metabuilds making a good and balanced ability broken, therefore the solution was to nerf the metabuilds, instead they nerfed the ability to the point only the metabuilds make it work. They also nerfed other aspects that weren't a problem, like Rising Storm, and nerfed aspects that were already borderline useless, like Conclave Blade Storm (which currently is 100% useless)

[(XBOX)ThrobnBloodTube]

On 10/2/2017 at 1:37 AM, paul5473 said:

I think his blade storm is fine, just go invisible mark the targets then blade storm its fine. Who ever told you "4 -> Do combat -> 4" is wrong ash is more versatile than just only using his 4, also fatal teleport and covert lethality is one of his best combos as well.

Very true using fatal teleport you can one shot a juggernaut, people are just sad they cant press 4 and kill everything instantly anymore.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ThrobnBloodTube said:

Very true using fatal teleport you can one shot a juggernaut, people are just sad they cant press 4 and kill everything instantly anymore.

You sure play Ash buddy. DId you know that got patched? It no longer works. The Assassin frame can't assassinate a high priority target. Because the point is to nerf Ash into the ground according to DE apparently.

[Entharias]

Ya'all Ash fans should just accept the truth, pre-revamped Bladestorm was too braindead and op.
Post-revamp Bladestorm isn't as good as the old one, it costs more energy, and it's a pain to use when in party, but that's all we got, we gotta make it work, some people are happy with it, some are not.
Those posts won't do any good, and will only create more flame, the Ash revamp megathread is 1 year and something old and still a relatively active post, and did DE change anything since a year? No, so give up and work with what you got.

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

Ya'all Ash fans should just accept the truth, pre-revamped Bladestorm was too braindead and op.

Powered by metbuilds that made it broken, and make pretty much any other frame OP and broken too. Maybe we should restore BS and nerf everything that made it op. Like making Efficiency no longer have exponential scaling (or removing it entirely), nerfing Trinity pizzas rage and energize (and add a passive regeneration like 2/4 Energy Overload to compensate)

As I mentioned earlier, BS was fine as it was, it didn't reward smart thinking, it punished braindead spam by locking the player onto elite units, that was DE's way of saying "fool, assassinate priority targets first, BS is a clean up not your godamn all-solving-power".

8 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

Those posts won't do any good, and will only create more flame, the Ash revamp megathread is 1 year and something old and still a relatively active post, and did DE change anything since a year? No, so give up and work with what you got.

Tenno: what happened to you?

Teshin: they gave up.

We won't give up. We will haunt DE until the set right what they did wrong.

[(XBOX)ThrobnBloodTube]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

You sure play Ash buddy. DId you know that got patched? It no longer works. The Assassin frame can't assassinate a high priority target. Because the point is to nerf Ash into the ground according to DE apparently.

Oh really 😂. Dont play ash and I havent had wifi so I cant play

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

As long as bladestorm can kill most lvl 100 enemies in seconds, I don't have a problem with it. 

[Nazrethim]

56 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

As long as bladestorm can kill most lvl 100 enemies in seconds, I don't have a problem with it. 

Which makes one wonder why you oppose reworking it into a better designed ability that actually allows for build diversity and doesn't overlap with TP or have a broken cost.