I'm done with fishing and PoE

[Nyaa314]

1 minute ago, Revenant0713 said:

I do still strongly feel the mechanics of fishing are not the problem.

Well, idunno. The only way I can fish is from zipline. It's horribly inaccurate and throw is delayed a second or two sometimes, but only by being 2-5m above water level and looking straight down can I see anything except glare on water surface.

[Mattoropael]

59 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

[Technobabble about Iron Man suit]

You're missing the point completely. This is a game with space ninjas jumping faster than a car, structures from a long-gone super civilization staying mostly pristine after god knows how many centuries, and "void energy" which is magic in all but name.

Hard Sci-fi realism has no place here.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Mattoropael

[Revenant0713]

2 minutes ago, Nyaa314 said:

Well, idunno. The only way I can fish is from zipline. It's horribly inaccurate and throw is delayed a second or two sometimes, but only by being 2-5m above water level and looking straight down can I see anything except glare on water surface.

Strange... spears have always been responsive for me.

Unfortunately, that glare is probably one of the "working as intended" bits. The issue then becomes a need for DE to get better water textures as well. Cuz the pools right now all look like saliva. Shiny, translucent instead of clear, and overall worse than vanilla Skyrim.

At night time though, it's harder unless the fish are luminescent.

The good part is that Ivara is fun to use in the plains anyway. She can use navigator to guide her spear, and she can potentially fish for any of the available prey with only one spear thanks to stealth mutlipliers, or so I hear.

There are other QoL fishing frames like Loki and Ash. Volt also uses his passive damage gain to get the same result. Rhino can activate roar to make entire parties' spears do more damage too. Zephyr can increase spear flight speed, and gets around pools really quickly.

[Nirrel]

4 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

It could be closed for straying off-topic. Like I did with Anthraxicus. Or like the argument between Mudfam and RacerDelux and you did.

 

But to undo my contribution and put things back on track, I do still strongly feel the mechanics of fishing are not the problem. It's the economy. We can deal with fishing in order to gain materials for things, if those things were not essential for a gameplay element that DE wants to feel special. In this case, the amp.

Look at Cephalon Simaris. He (it?) gives decent stuff in his (its?) syndicate standing shop. Why not do something like that? But more importantly, why not actually get bait to work as intended first?

I agree that fishing shouldn't gate any game content that you need for progression. It just shouldn't be a thing in the first place. It should be optional as they have said it would be.

However I completely dispise the whole bait thing to it. Not only you have to stay at a puddle for hours and do nothing just stare at your monitor in a cool action game, but you can't even catch the rare fish without an approprite bait for wich you have to gain standing and fish beforehand, and you still have only a chance to get it. It's a ridicolous, tedious, unrewarding crap system.

 

[Revenant0713]

3 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

You're missing the point completely. This is a game with space ninjas jumping faster than a car, structures from a long-gone super civilization staying mostly pristine after god knows how many centuries, and "void energy" which is magic in all but name.

Hard Sci-fi realism has no place here.

 

And this explains the need for fish oil in archwings?

You're right. I can't use sci-fi realism here because this is in essence, reskinned fantasy. So then the rules become literary writing rules instead of physics laws.

Sanderson's three laws of magic:

1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic satisfactorily is directly proportional to how well the reader understands magic -- We need an understanding of how things work. That is why you cannot blame people in the community for looking for understanding or some degree of realism which we can base our assumptions on. Even transference is theoretically possible in the physical world.

2. Limitations are greater than powers -- What a superpowered tenno cannot do is more interesting than what he can. Superman's strength and invulnerability is not what makes him interesting. In fact, in a universe of super strong and super fast characters, he's quite common. His code of ethics taught by his foster home impose limits on his powers, giving him depth. Thus again... carried over to Warframe... the need to discuss what an archwing cannot do and why.

3. Expand what you already have before you add something new -- This is the part where I can connect us back with the topic of this thread. We got Skywing. That's an expansion on what we already have. Excellent. But it is corrupted by a NEW system that is so separated from the rest of the warframe experience: fishing. The law states that power has to be connected deeper with the world before its influence gets wider. Yes, Skywing is a good expansion. Rough, but it has potential, and it is greatly appreciated. On its own, Skywing in its current state follows the first and second laws; laws of writing fantasy that you tried to nonchalantly dismiss, but cannot be denied when compared to every successful fantasy story in publication. But Skywing tied in with a new fishing system that has very little to do with the Warframe universe before PoE? That's where the conflict starts.

I'll be honest though... thanks for bringing it up. It was a challenge pulling out of the Iron Man analogy and taking things back on track.

[Revenant0713]

26 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

I agree that fishing shouldn't gate any game content that you need for progression. It just shouldn't be a thing in the first place. It should be optional as they have said it would be.

However I completely dispise the whole bait thing to it. Not only you have to stay at a puddle for hours and do nothing just stare at your monitor in a cool action game, but you can't even catch the rare fish without an approprite bait for wich you have to gain standing and fish beforehand, and you still have only a chance to get it. It's a ridicolous, tedious, unrewarding crap system.

 

Actually... all fish can be caught without bait. I personally never buy bait.

I watched bait in action and it failed to impress.

Oh here's another problem that might need a look at though: even when you WANT to fish, the freaking Vomvalysts are always around. They're actually a bit more of a problem for me than RNG because I've missed quite a few rares just for having the Vomvalysts attack and force me to break focus and fight back.

Regarding how rewarding it is? Again... the economy is shiz... If the rewards are crap, well... why bother? If they're core gameplay element rewards, then that just isn't fair because now fishing is core too.

Edit: What we need is a midway point of max standing rewards where we can get enjoyable things from fishing that are neither useless nor core. Luxuries, if you will. Heck... maybe boosters. XD

Edited October 18, 2017 by Revenant0713

[Nirrel]

3 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

Actully... all fish can be caught without bait. I personally never buy bait.

 

Oh here's another problem that might need a look at though: even when you WANT to fish, the freaking Vomvalysts are always around. They're actually a bit more of a problem for me than RNG because I've missed quite a few rares just for having the Vomvalysts attack and force me to break focus and fight back.

Or the grineer,,, :)

Well in theory they can be caught in practice after hours of fishing I had none. Bad luck perhaps, but it's still insane considering the timesink in something that literally means just staring at your monitore not doing anything. Now if it would be optional I wouldn't have anything to say, but the fact that I have to do it what makes it even more maddening and fustrating.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

9 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

I agree that fishing shouldn't gate any game content that you need for progression. It just shouldn't be a thing in the first place. It should be optional as they have said it would be.

However I completely dispise the whole bait thing to it. Not only you have to stay at a puddle for hours and do nothing just stare at your monitor in a cool action game, but you can't even catch the rare fish without an approprite bait for wich you have to gain standing and fish beforehand, and you still have only a chance to get it. It's a ridicolous, tedious, unrewarding crap system.

 

I defiantly agree, at lest for thigns that are ment to be semi universal. I dont think it will scale well once they come out with different maps if we need to always go back to the planes to craft stuff. Id assum that the different planets would have diffrent wildlife unless they where all terraformed the same. the only think that I can see staying the same is miening. that kind of thing probibly dosnt change much between planets.

Im ok with fish parts being for gara, thouhgt I feel like they should have devices a new currancy for the orstrons rather then havieng it be handing in crafting mats for blueprints to be able to use more crafting matts :I

[Revenant0713]

Just now, Nirrel said:

Or the grineer,,, :)

Well in theory they can be caught in practice after hours of fishing I had none. Bad luck perhaps, but it's still insane considering the timesink in something that literally means just staring at your monitore not doing anything. Now if it would be optional I wouldn't have anything to say, but the fact that I have to do it what makes it even more maddening and fustrating.

Yeah I just edited my last post.

The rewards need a serious look at. I wouldn't ind maybe fishing for mod packs or boosters. Maybe even relic packs.

[Revenant0713]

6 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Or the grineer,,, :)

Well in theory they can be caught in practice after hours of fishing I had none. Bad luck perhaps, but it's still insane considering the timesink in something that literally means just staring at your monitore not doing anything. Now if it would be optional I wouldn't have anything to say, but the fact that I have to do it what makes it even more maddening and fustrating.

5 minutes ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

I defiantly agree, at lest for thigns that are ment to be semi universal. I dont think it will scale well once they come out with different maps if we need to always go back to the planes to craft stuff. Id assum that the different planets would have diffrent wildlife unless they where all terraformed the same. the only think that I can see staying the same is miening. that kind of thing probibly dosnt change much between planets.

Im ok with fish parts being for gara, thouhgt I feel like they should have devices a new currancy for the orstrons rather then havieng it be handing in crafting mats for blueprints to be able to use more crafting matts :I

Actually... and I started posting in these forums AGAINST the idea that cosmetics (specifically the operator suits) should be fish-farmable... I would appreciate if instead of the amps, we got unique weapon cosmetics. Earth-themed or Cetus-esque feelsy skins and sugatras.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Revenant0713

[shoopypit]

These types of complaints have been around since the beginning. That's why the nickname for it is "grindframe". The fish swimming in the ground and through mountains is a bug. Report it and move on. Don't like fishing for hours straight? Then don't. Fish for a little bit then do a bounty. After your bounty explore the map. If it's night time hunt an eidolon . There are other things to do. Take your time. I haven't built parts of a melee weapon yet, because I'm taking my time. I suggest everyone else do the same.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

13 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

Actually... and I started posting in these forums AGAINST the idea that cosmetics (specifically the operator suits) should be fish-farmable... I would appreciate if instead of the amps, we got unique weapon cosmetics. Earth-themed or Cetus-esque feelsy skins and sugatras.

that would also be rather cool. the quills seem very limited right now. like when they expand, are we going to get more teck based amp stuff? if its a corpus world next are we going to have to collect CPUs and stuff to build teck based parts for it?

skins and cosmetics would be better for the systme that is currently in place, but I think that becasue you can not outright buy the amps otherwise it also kind of throttels it. the community seems to hate when you "force" them to play somehting so I think it stems from that.

now if the amps where usefull in other thigns other then agenst three enemys.... ya id be farming them with a bit more energy. but right now its like... O good. a grind to grind for a grind. I like hunting for things, but this is a little much...

Id have less of a rpblue with it is the blueprinters where reuseabule (considering the materials they take to make also sometimes include the things you have to hand in for them) and if we gained standing passivly somehow. not with a lens, just by doing missions or something. 

 

not to mention that some of the materials are gated. like the breath of the edilon things. far as I know the best way to get it is in bountys and thats in 5s. you need ... a lot to craft stuff otherwise.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Fluff-E-Kitty

[Vance.Stubbs]

This was already covered multiple time, so it me repeat "our" complaints once again:

I am fine with fishing as an optional mechanic (fix the fish clipping bugs though), and it would be nice if finishing was like this:

1) trading fish for standing -- why not, a great alternative to bounties and mining, no problem with that what so ever;

2) gutting fish and using those resources to craft or trade for vanity items: companion skins, decorations, trophies -- sure, it's completely legit;

3) single-term goal to capture rare fish to advance the Ostron rank -- I guess it makes sense that I have to gain my respect by bringing rare fish to the people ONCE.

What I am NOT fine with:

USING FISH ENTRAILS TO CRAFT STUFF I NEED TO CRAFT AND USE CONSTANTLY: this includes AW gear, Zaws and Amps -- as many people pointed out -- Warframe is not a fishing game, it is a shooter, I want to get materials I need from my enemies' cold hands, not from standing on the rock and throwing spears for hours. That's the issue we're complaining about, not some mythical "omg we want everything given to us instantly!!1!" made up crap by fanbois.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Vance.Stubbs

[Yargami]

2 hours ago, Mudfam said:

My last two posts have been in reply to you saying this same exact thing. Can you read? Like at all? Are you seriously just incapable of understanding the difference between time and fishing? I already told you I don't mind long term goals one little bit. I'll repeat my example: should I manage to hit my 250k focus cap every single day it would still take about 6 months or more to unlock most things I want. Do you hear me complaining about that? No.

As long as things involve the warframe gameplay I enjoy I can grind indefinitely, it's what I've already done for years. This is also because I can choose how to play and what to play. I will for example never touch defence and interception missions because I hate them with a fervent passion. I don't have to, I can choose! I will never play tanky and overpowered frames because they simplify and trivialise the gameplay too much for me.

I haven't even started to explain the magnitude of the problem. The first tier amps already require a lot of rare fish, and these are components that are consumed in threes every time you build an amp, with many possible combinations to explore and try out. The higher tier components require an absolutely gigantic investment of chains of rare fish for bait for rarer fish for bait for even rarer fish. This is a new gameplay system I want to explore, but just to try it in its most basic form I need countless hours of fishing. To fully explore it I would have to stop doing everything else and fish for the next few years or something utterly and completely idiotic like that.

I don't want to fish. Do you finally bloody get it? How many bloody times do I have to repeat this? Everything needs fish, some things require a completely unreasonable RNG fishing grind. This is what I don't want, just @(*()$ stop trying claim my problem is elsewhere. No fishing. Bad fishing. Capish???

   I do admit that maybe the Amp related bait-rare-fish-to-make-bait-for-rarer-fish chains is a problem. My point still stands that fishing as it currently is takes time. That means that those who are going to fish will take time to fish, and those who aren't going to fish will have to wait either for DE to change it or for fishers to start a trading market. Waiting for trade to pick up is the price for not having to do the fishing directly (that being said, DE probably should have mentioned trading fish at least once). If you don't want to fish that's fine. You just have to be willing to wade through trade chat. It actually makes me think of Corrupted mods. If you don't want to farm them directly then you are at the mercy of trade chat. And I'm not necessarily saying "go buy it with plat" as there are people like me who are willing to trade for resources, mods, prime parts, etc.

edit: Before I get yelled at because Corrupted mods are much easier to get, I was not saying that Corrupted mods are as hard as the Amps. I was saying that it's a similar concept of doing the farming directly or waiting for trade to have what you need.

2 hours ago, Mudfam said:

It's a topic about fishing! Am I supposed to include praise for unrelated things in every post I make about fishing? Absurd.

Feedback is never going to be a bunch of people sayin "wow, this is cool". No, it's going to be people explaining issues they have, particularly the ones they feel strongly about. This is reality, you're talking about pure fantasy.

   OK, yes, fishing topics should talk about fishing. I wasn't talking about any one post specifically. In general, this update seems to have been met with almost uniformly negative posts (which seem to talk entirely about either fishing or Archwing), even though much of the actual content is good.

2 hours ago, Mudfam said:

You want me to stay positive? Stop trying to tell me what my problem is. I know perfectly well, and I've explained it perfectly well. Now back the hell off.

   Again, I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about people in general, as I'm sure there are a lot of impatient people playing Warframe. I'm not trying to tell you what your problem is, I'm just throwing out ideas and theories.

1 hour ago, Revenant0713 said:

But to undo my contribution and put things back on track, I do still strongly feel the mechanics of fishing are not the problem. It's the economy. We can deal with fishing in order to gain materials for things, if those things were not essential for a gameplay element that DE wants to feel special or core to the warframe experience. In this case, the amp. Otherwise, fishing becomes a core experience itself.

   This is kind of what I'm trying to get at. The actual fishing mechanics aren't bad, just a bit too central for much of the community (especially those trying to get Amp upgrades).

1 hour ago, Revenant0713 said:

 But more importantly, why not actually get bait to work as intended first?

   This right here is a problem too, but it's also a brand new update with a very large amount of new content, so I expect there to be problems with functionality. I think it's a good idea in general to make your game actually functioning right and then worry about balance.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Yargami

[Solinear]

This post and thread pretty much hits every reason I came to the forums today

I came here (to the forums) because I spent 2-3 hours yesterday fishing trying to get a Murkray and got zero and I researched for where they spawn first.  I would have happily spent plat on the damn fish, but I couldn't.  I happen to agree with the people who say that fishing and mining should not be a requirement, particularly when the chances are close to nil that you'll get what you need for game advancement.

I play Warframe because it's a high-speed murderous dashfest... you know, except when I'm playing Banshee or Ivara...  There is nothing less "space ninja" than standing there fishing.  Seriously - a psychic god space ninja fishing.... um.... they might as well have put a game of Go in the game and made it a requirement to beat AlphaGo to progress and they would have had broken the mood of the game less.  I'm really seeing the US Military putting a "Catch 2 tons of large-mouth bass" as a requirement to become a full bird Colonel.  I heard a rumor it was coming.

 

Here is what I'd love to see:

1) Grineer give 1 faction per kill, 5 per Examus or have them drop things with around a 25-50% rate that give like 5 faction each when you turn them in.  Alternatively, maybe have one medallion or something per camp that you can get that gives faction.

2) Have the Grineer drop ore and fish occasionally.  I hate to point it out, but if the oil in these fish is good for high-tech Archwings, I'm sure the Grineer would figure out that it's good stuff to have.  I'm pretty sure if my void powered amp is using those ores, the Grineer would find use for it.  I mean... what are they mining for and what is that big thing on the coast?

3) Make tradeskilling (mining, fishing) be able to save you major cash.  Like... you catch fresh fish instead of rotting fish that you get from the Grineer, or maybe you have to spend major cash to refine what you get from the Grineer.  Sure, make it worthwhile... but not a mandatory part of progression. 

edit:  Just thought of this: Maybe make the rare fish also potential rewards for the random missions while doing a free run in the plains.  That would give people a reason just to run around out there.  Otherwise you ignore them while you're fishing (for 2+ hours).

I am increasingly not wanting to go to PoE just because it literally looks like the plan is just time sink and they didn't actually waste more than ten minutes to force you into it.

Day 1:  Go to Plains of Eidolon.  Learned my way around, do a couple of missions.  It's kinda neat, right?
Day 2:  Took my chances at night and realize it's painfully easy to solo, other than the Terrorlyst or whatever it's called.  Seriously - "yawn" levels of easy.
Day 3:  Get enough faction to raise my factions, realize that it's becoming painful to progress.
Day 4:  Look around and realize that I have so much crap to farm so I can farm more crap.... so I can get what are likely middlin' upgrades that I get a little bothered.  But I try farming some to see if I can get most of the way to the amp upgrades.  Fail miserably after fishing for hours.
Day 5:  Log in and realize I actually don't want to play.  Did my Sortie and hit the daily Focus cap.... log out. Yep, I think I'm done for the day.
Day 6:  Repeat Day 5 probably.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Solinear

[WhiteCr0w]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)GiltStingray604 said:

Never laughed so much after watching this. Is it really that important? The man's going to shorten his life if he carries on like this.

Brozime is just pure negativity. He's a great example of what a jaded veteran of this game is like, which is largely what his fanbase consists of. 

[Revenant0713]

1 minute ago, WhiteCr0w said:

Brozime is just pure negativity. He's a great example of what a jaded veteran of this game is like, which is largely what his fanbase consists of. 

Brozime had the same hatred for Broberon Prime after the rework. But people seem to think positively of the frame now, even if only one patch of major numerical changes was made... and that patch was before Brozime did his video.

[Azuset]

3 hours ago, Revenant0713 said:

I do still strongly feel the mechanics of fishing are not the problem

It's simple. Its been said a billion times. Fishing is not the problem. Fishing for mandatory progression is the problem. I have read your posts up to this point. You can try and defend that it is not mandatory but answer me this, How do you craft Gara, Zaws, Rank up in syndication, get better pew pew wrist bands for your child? Do they include fish parts? No need to answer look into it because the answer is yes. 

Fishing should have been a system of its own. 

[MJ12]

6 hours ago, Revenant0713 said:

1. You can't steal fish guts from Grineer because they don't fish. You can't steal gems from Grineer because they don't mine gems.

2. As a long-time aircraft enthusiast, those wings are suitable for water and SPACE combat, where in the first scenario, the wings are buoyant enough to not sink to the bottom of the ocean, possibly needing only built-in fill-at-will water tanks ala-submersible style in order to change depth, and in the second scenario, gravity and air resistance do not play a factor in maneuverability. They are not suited for air combat, where gravity and air resistance work against their design. Thus, the necessity for an in-atmosphere segment to modify the archwings in order to achieve any form of performance in the skies above the Plains. It explains why archwings in Plains cannot strafe as they do in space or in water. It also explains why archwings cannot access archwing weapons in the atmosphere; because the weight of said weapons would further strain the archwing's engines, and hinder performance.

The only things that cannot be explained by DE are why you need fish oil to build the damn segment, and why a trooper can one-hit KO an archwing.

Stop making excuses for bad gameplay decisions like limiting Archwing segments behind a minigame and an endless grindwall. And moreover, your excuse, that it's "realistic," is actually completely wrong.

Water is literally a thousand times denser than air. Assuming that the oceans are liquid water, Archwings can provide, through their drives, meaningful thrust through a medium literally a thousand times denser than air. The idea that 'air resistance' is relevant at that point is laughable. Atmospheric drag is also not actually that problematic, especially since Archwings have a TWR significantly greater than 1:1, and can maintain that thrust indefinitely. You can make a literal brick fly if you have enough power, and Archwings have more than enough power, given that their accelerations are sufficient for them to turn on a dime in space and go from 0 to 100+ meters/second in a literal second. That, by the way, requires a 10:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when fully loaded. In comparison, a modern high-performance fighter jet, like the F-22, manages a mere 1.5:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when empty, and even less when loaded. Let me put that in perspective. This means that a Tenno on an Archwing should be able to break orbit from the surface of Earth just by pointing towards the sky and flying up. They should be (and literally are) capable of pulling maneuvers impossible for aircraft, because they have thrust weight ratios impossible for aircraft.

Archwings should be 100% capable of atmospheric performance, right out of the box. Honestly, if this was a matter of realism rather than a blatantly bad gameplay decision, DE should just eliminate both Archwing launcher charges and the upgrade segment and refund everyone all the platinum, credits, and resources spent on them. Nothing explains why Archwings need to be 'modified' with fish oil to use their engines, which do not require any such fuel in space (despite the fact that there is nothing in space and thus they would require reaction mass to do anything, assuming they use reaction drives instead of reactionless ones), on Earth. Maneuvering at high speeds in space is literally far harder than maneuvering at high speeds in atmosphere.

Edit: In fact, because it's a blatantly bad gameplay decision, they should just refund everyone their Archwing Upgrade Segment and Launcher Charges resources/credits/platinum and pretend like they never had this unfun and unrealistic grindwall over the use of... Archwing, which people don't use nearly enough in the first place.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by MJ12

[SolaryaNDR113]

As a matter of feedback I believe it suffices to say I like (why) I do not like (because).
We are here to give our opinion, hoping of being taken into account, by those who can make improvements to the game.

What is pleasing, or not, to each of us is a personal matter.

That is why I find it hilarious that someone explains why it is necessary or not to do something I do not like, or why the game is right to ask me something I do not like. We are not here to convince our fellow players to change their opinions or tastes.

I repeat: we are here to play and everyone has his tastes.
I do not like fishing / digging minerals, and I do not find it enjoyable that the game, which in other ways I really love, is now compelled me to do so.
I like to use archwings, and I'm not happy that, in Plains, wings are so misused or exploited for their potential.
And I've already provided an idea of how it might be most pleasing to me to handle these aspects.

Simple as that.

[Revenant0713]

4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Stop making excuses for bad gameplay decisions like limiting Archwing segments behind a minigame and an endless grindwall. And moreover, your excuse, that it's "realistic," is actually completely wrong.

Water is literally a thousand times denser than air. Assuming that the oceans are liquid water, Archwings can provide, through their drives, meaningful thrust through a medium literally a thousand times denser than air. The idea that 'air resistance' is relevant at that point is laughable. Atmospheric drag is also not actually that problematic, especially since Archwings have a TWR significantly greater than 1:1, and can maintain that thrust indefinitely. You can make a literal brick fly if you have enough power, and Archwings have more than enough power, given that their accelerations are sufficient for them to turn on a dime in space and go from 0 to 100+ meters/second in a literal second. That, by the way, requires a 10:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when fully loaded. In comparison, a modern high-performance fighter jet, like the F-22, manages a mere 1.5:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when empty, and even less when loaded. Let me put that in perspective. This means that a Tenno on an Archwing should be able to break orbit from the surface of Earth just by pointing towards the sky and flying up. They should be (and literally are) capable of pulling maneuvers impossible for aircraft, because they have thrust weight ratios impossible for aircraft.

Archwings should be 100% capable of atmospheric performance, right out of the box. Honestly, if this was a matter of realism rather than a blatantly bad gameplay decision, DE should just eliminate both Archwing launcher charges and the upgrade segment and refund everyone all the platinum, credits, and resources spent on them. Nothing explains why Archwings need to be 'modified' with fish oil to use their engines, which do not require any such fuel in space (despite the fact that there is nothing in space and thus they would require reaction mass to do anything, assuming they use reaction drives instead of reactionless ones), on Earth. Maneuvering at high speeds in space is literally far harder than maneuvering at high speeds in atmosphere.

Edit: In fact, because it's a blatantly bad gameplay decision, they should just refund everyone their Archwing Upgrade Segment and Launcher Charges resources/credits/platinum and pretend like they never had this unfun and unrealistic grindwall over the use of... Archwing, which people don't use nearly enough in the first place.

 

The impossible maneuvers you are referring to have... until PoE... NOT been been within the atmosphere of any planet. Zero air resistance. Zero friction. Zero gravity. You know... those things that set boundaries that make flight possible. It's easy to assume weight by looking at the object. But you assume we know the mass flow rate of whatever comes out of the powerplants. First glance at the size of the odonata and given is some kind of a powerplant in each of its wings, I'd be generous giving it an estimated mass of 260 kg with an archgun and archmelee.

If we have the Odonata accelerate at 100 m/s^2, that's 26,000 N of force diving that mass forward in a vacuum. If you want to calculate drag and compare the Odonata's performance in a vacuum to performance underwater, where density of the medium is NOT literally 1000x greater than air by the way, (816.326531x) then be my guest. Let me know if your calculations turn up well. I'm curious to get a bead on its actual performance.

Are you really gonna pull this thread back into the Iron Man vs Archwing bit, after everyone already said to get back on track? After I myself, who was involved in said argument, admitted that it got off-track? Did you even read how said argument progressed?

Now I do agree that cost/value on archwing charges is abysmal. And I do agree that fish oil is stupid. But that is still straying from the point of this thread that everyone since that miniature debate has tried to steer back towards. I understand that reading through every page is tedious and nonsensical. But if you won't do it, don't butt in. Conversations never end in the same state they begin.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Revenant0713

[Aelendril]

4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

-snip-

 

21 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

-snap-

You both have good points, but this essentially hold in 3 words : futuristic super technology.

You're judging AW with our current knowledge and technology, but it cannot apply. We don't know how they work, what they're really made of outside craft components, what they can or cannot do.

It's like in mass effect for Sovereign, when Joker says ; "that thing just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half" It's the same thing here, AW are far, far, far above what we know and can do.

 

Now, on a feedback note, I wouldn't mind using crafting limited beacons if we weren't downed as fast a paper plane in the rain. And I would also love to be able to go higher than 50m of the ground.

As to using arch-guns, it'd be fun, but maybe they would need to be slightly less effective in atmosphere (like, less ammo, more falloff lower dmg...) to reduce OPness 

[Yargami]

   See, everyone seems to be saying how they want Archwing weapons in the Plains, but I actually prefer primary/secondary weapons. Maybe if Archwing had a lot more content and variety in both weapons and mods, but as it is, the ground weapons have a much better roster (in my opinion). The only advantage I can see for the Archwing weapons is the infinite ammo. That by itself, however, is not enough of an advantage for me to sacrifice everything else, so I'll take the ground weapons every time.

[Revenant0713]

Latest hotfix is a bunch of QoL changes to fishing. Appreciated.

It still doesn't address that core content is locked behind a fishing wall, but at least fishing is easier.

[ZloGlaZ]

On 10/17/2017 at 10:34 AM, RacerDelux said:

Would that fix the issue for most of you?
(along with fishing rods actually being pure upgrades, and bait blueprints being reusable)

Less grind, a lot less grind will make it tolerable ...