Naramon Feedback / Opinions, & Suggestions

[MayssonFairbanks]

Disclaimer: there is a lot of criticism here, but this is from a casual player who loves Warframe, and this is meant to help DE improve the game.

Ive had some time to play with Naramon so here are my thoughts on each node:

Main Tree:

• Affinity Spike: There's an issue which is common to all schools and all abilities: I'm at rank 2 right now, which means +20% affinity. This is fine and dandy, but there is no way to tell what the next rank is going to give me. Will I get 25%, will it be a 30% Who knows? Also, no way to tell how many points do I have to invest in order to max it out. 1 million, 2 millions? Speaking of which, I wonder whether this is good design; having to spend a ton of focus points in order to get a few more focus points. Also, does this ability even work with focus gain in other trees?

 

• Power Spike (combo counter): aside from the affinity spike this is the only interesting ability in this tree. The only one which is actually useful and seems to work as intended. Thank God it's only 3 ranks.

 

• Void Stalker (crit buff): Maxing this ability is the only way to not make it suck. At max rank it becomes somewhat noticeable but it's too unreliable due to bugs*, too short (20 seconds at max rank), it instantly resets to 0% as soon as the player re-enters the void, and to make things worse it decays way too fast. This ability is not worth developing a playstyle around, too convoluted, too much hassle and not rewarding enough. It's nothing more than a cute cherry on top of Void Dash. This ability in combination with void mode & void dash might be somewhat useful at the highest level of end-game, who knows. But for a regular player in a regular mission, it's not worth the trouble. 

*This is the alleged bug: when transitioning from Operator void mode back into Warframe, half the time, the buff simply disappears, or resets to 0% somehow. This maybe be tied to latency, anyway it represents a HUGE waste of time and a huge loss of DPS: the whole process takes up at least 6 or 7 seconds, so that's 6 or 7 seconds of doing absolutely nothing, with no buff at all as a reward. 

In short, Void Stalker's issues:
-unreliabililty, 
-awfully short duration, 
-awful and punishing decay component, 
-general annoyance and clunkyness of the activation process, 
-slow and fragile nature of Operator gameplay, which breaks the pacing

↑ these are some of the reasons why I don't prioritize or maximize this ability at all. It's nice getting a small crit buff after knocking down a group of enemies but it is certainly not worth going out of my way to make use of it, especially when it doesnt work half the time.

 

• Void Hunter (X-Ray mode): I'm not going to waste my time investing in this. Unless it allows me to see enemies through the Plains foliage (jk this thing seems useless no matter what). Maybe make it similar to zenurik energizing dash but with crit instead of energy.

 

• Disarm / Disorient blast: these two are rng by nature, also they seem situational at best, not that interesting tbh. Not to mention they are also tied to a void ability, and the necessity of going into operator mode. In reality, one swing of my sword is more effective than ten disorienting void blasts.

 

• Executing Dash: seems like a sidegrade at best because there are already tons of ways to dispatch individual enemies. As with the disarm / confuse nodes, this one might become useful at very high level, maybe it is useful to 0.4% of the playerbase, who knows.

 

• There's another talent called Surging Dash, but the description is so vague... "Creates a wave while dashing, increasing the damage in the area around the operator." 

Increase what damage? Are you talking about void dash damage? 
Or is that a Void Beam damage increase? 
Or maybe a melee damage increase? 
Or may it be some kind of Ability Strength buff?
Maybe all it does is increase damage done to the environment itself, aka crates and sabotage targets ? 
Also, what kind of area are we talking about here, in terms of radius? 
And what kind of durations can we reasonably presume?

It's all a mystery, I bet even DE doesn't know either. Bottom line, I didn't even bother taking another look at this one, because I refuse to spend hundreds of thousands of points (= HOURS of dedicated grinding, or DAYS of regular play) just to figure out whether this node actually sucks or not.

Way-bound nodes: 

• Running speed: I was stupid enough to put points into this thing, unfortunately the buff is too low and the difference is too negligible. 

 

• Void dash speed: Void dash is pretty fast in and of itself, and I really can't come up with any scenario where I would need Void dash to be even faster. This node is useless imo.

 

Conclusions & other issues:

So after playing around with this tree I was shocked to realize that the best ability in Naramon tree is in fact not a Naramon ability: it is baseline Void Dash. 

This thing doesn't cost any Focus point, it always works, and it's a great cc. Naramon is supposed to compliment Operators and warframes but in reality it fails to do so, and the only thing the Naramon school actually taught me is that Void Dash is a cool cc ability. This tree is so uninteresting that I found myself using Void Dash not for these lame buffs, but mainly for its movement and crowd control (which are both baseline btw). Actually this is not true: I don't even need VD's mobility or cc, my mobility is fine, and my melee dps is high enough that I can one or three shot 90% of the enemies I encounter. In fact the only reason I use Void Dash is because I enjoy propelling enemies into the air or into bottomless pits and this has nothing to do with Naramon. 

Long story short, aside from Affinity Spike and Power Spike, investing in Naramon seems like a bad idea because it doesn't make a big enough difference during gameplay.

-Other issues related to Naramon off the top of my head:

Survivability: The way DE gutted the whole Naramon tree means we lost an absurd amount of survivability and got nothing to make up for it.

Cost: the focus costs are insanely high and prohibitive. 

Gameplay: Using the active abilities (especially Void Stalker) in an optimal way requires good execution and good timing, and it reminds me of fighting games' special moves or combinations. Unfortunately it is extremely dependent on latency. With good latency, the whole process feels smooth and seamless. With bad latency, proper execution is impossible, especially with the void stalker bug which makes the process a nightmare from an execution perspective.

 

Suggestions: 

- Improve tooltips (more information on node ranks)

- (!) Fix the Void Stalker bug which instantly resets the buff to 0% (!) Number one priority and should have been done yesterday. This is an easy fix which requires very little modification.

- Rework the arbitrary limitations on void stalker. This ability is already cumbersome enough to fully activate, because the player needs to stay in the void for full 5 seconds which severly restricts the player from doing anything except for limited movement. We don't need more arbitrary conditions on top of it so I suggest reworking either the 20s limit, or the decay component, one of those has to go

- Make Naramon as a whole more stealth oriented. There are some abilities in other school which clearly belong to Naramon, such as:

    -Unairu's Void Shadow (Void Mode will now render allies within range invisible) -> Obviously a rework of a former Naramon ability called Cloaking Aura
    -Madurai's Void Radiance (Consumes energy on leaving Void Mode to blind enemies within range for a time) -> essentially makes the player invisible 
    -Madurai's Void Strike (On leaving Void Mode, the next attack deals additional damage for every second spent cloaked) ->  HOW is this not Naramon?

- Rework those underwhelming talents such as Disorienting blast

- Lower the focus requirements of all nodes, and make way-bound passives easier to unbind

-  (not meant to be taken literally) Bring everything in line with the new Naramon, don't hesitate to entirely gut any weapon or any combination of gear & abilities that is deemed too powerful by some arbitrary process: 

First order is to get rid of Warframes who make the game trivial. You absolutely have to remove their abilities and replace them with nothing. I'm talking about Frost here and his cousin Frost Prime. All I know about this frame is that he can make snowglobes appear, but this lack of knowledge doesn't prevent me from concluding that this ability is utterly broken and is the definition of Cheese. Its potency and its duration are completely imbalanced and it's not fair for Grineeer and Corpus and Infested.

Also you absolutely need to entirely remove Hydroid's pudddle thing; absolutely and grossly overpowered. It grants too much protection and survivability, this ability literally breaks the game and kills the fun, come on now. This ability is so overpowering that everytime I see a Hydroid in the squad, I just abort the mission. 

In any case there is no doubt in my mind that this game will undoubtedly become infinitely more fun as soon as you delete those two overpowered abilities. 

Also you have no other choice but to completely remove parkour 2.0 bullet jumps, double jumps, as well as all those crazy wall jumping stuff. Not only this is totally OP because it totally breaks the level design, but it breaks any sense of reality as well. There is nothing authentic about this system; a magical space ninja CANNOT latch himself to a wall for such a long period of time, that's just too overpowered. This power fantasy thing does not seem to work, and at the moment players are using gear and abilities in order to get more powerful, and they don't like it. All these people who choose to play Frost and Hydroid because they enjoy it are obviously not enjoying themselves, they don't think it's fun. Therefore the only way to make the game more fun and challenging is to nerf everything to the ground, starting with those two.

Anyway I'll send you a list of overpowered things so that you can remove them all, and throw them into the garbage bin (just like you did with Naramon's invisibility). Doing so would only make logical sense. And please remind me to send you some suggestions for some really interesting and balanced weapons that I'd like to see in the game, such as the Twin Peashooter, and the BB Gun Prime. 

My point is that DE should lighten up and go easy on the nerfs, and maybe try to Make Naramon Great Again, reinstate glorious Shadow Step but this time, make it more balanced with other trees.
 

Thanks for taking the time to read this, have a nice day.

TLDR: 

Baseline Void mode and Void Dash are quite fun to use, and I reckon Operator might be very enjoyable with all way-bound unlocked. However this is an unrealistic goal for regular players, and Naramon doesn't offer interesting or powerful upgrades to those abilities. Most of Naramon is objectively underwhelming considering the time and effort required. The combo counter is nice, and the crit buff is a cute gimmick when it works, but overall Naramon fails to compliment Operator as well as the warframe gameplay in any meaningful or game-changing way. As a casual player I would not recommend investing in this tree, at the moment. 
 

Edited October 22, 2017 by MayssonFairbanks

[mkefs]

I tried the Executing Dash, and it's actually worse than useless.

 

Yes, it opens the enemies up to finishers, but to do that, you have to hit the target, which alerts him (and likely others nearby). The target IS NOT stunned. If you stopped in his face, he still gets to pop a few shots at you while you transfer back into your warframe. If you had the misfortune (most of the time) of dashing through him, you now have to get back to him, where he can take some shots at you.

 

Failure to stun the enemy really completely negates the point of the Executing Dash. I can't imagine Surging dash is going to be any better, because again, the enemies are alerted AND not stunned.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2017. 10. 22. at 2:27 PM, MayssonFairbanks said:

Void Hunter (X-Ray mode): I'm not going to waste my time investing in this. Unless it allows me to see enemies through the Plains foliage (jk this thing seems useless no matter what). Maybe make it similar to zenurik energizing dash but with crit instead of energy.

This was once an useless zenurik node, now its an useless naramon node.

[Xarteros]

Swap Unairu's AoE stealth into an AoE petrify. 

Swap Void Stalker for the AoE stealth, and make it give the Tenno a basic melee finisher attack (close range blast or something)

Make Void Hunter not degrade over time, and give all attacks (Tenno or Warframe) infinite terrain punch-through like the Zenith (not enemy punch-through unless your attack already had it)

Make Executing Dash sleep all the enemies hit for a few seconds (to use in conjunction with Void Stalker finisher if you want to stay in operator form)

I'd be happy with a few changes like that

[Kalvorax]

1 hour ago, Xarteros said:

Make Executing Dash sleep all the enemies hit for a few seconds (to use in conjunction with Void Stalker finisher if you want to stay in operator form)

the sleep KIND of makes sense to give some kind of indicator that the enemy is finisher ready....but how would void stalker help if we as operators dont have a melee weapon?

so far as it stands, i want to DE to add FULL descriptions to ALL the focus abilities....looking at Executing Dash, yeah it opens enemies up to finishers...but for how long per rank? is it permanent until the enemy is killed and the only upgrade is damage addition? That is what i want to know....

Void stalker is.....so useless, when i first saw it and the zaws, i ALMOST thought Operators would be able to use melee weapons...but nope. thus Void stalker is quite useless as it stands right now.

I almost want them to move the melee channeling from zenurik to Naramon (makes more sense anyways due to melee) and add a Toggled power efficiency to zenurik (again, makes more sense imo)

[Xarteros]

5 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

the sleep KIND of makes sense to give some kind of indicator that the enemy is finisher ready....but how would void stalker help if we as operators dont have a melee weapon?

so far as it stands, i want to DE to add FULL descriptions to ALL the focus abilities....looking at Executing Dash, yeah it opens enemies up to finishers...but for how long per rank? is it permanent until the enemy is killed and the only upgrade is damage addition? That is what i want to know....

Void stalker is.....so useless, when i first saw it and the zaws, i ALMOST thought Operators would be able to use melee weapons...but nope. thus Void stalker is quite useless as it stands right now.

I almost want them to move the melee channeling from zenurik to Naramon (makes more sense anyways due to melee) and add a Toggled power efficiency to zenurik (again, makes more sense imo)

In answerance:
 

6 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Swap Void Stalker for the AoE stealth, and make it give the Tenno a basic melee finisher attack (close range blast or something)

Make Executing Dash sleep all the enemies hit for a few seconds (to use in conjunction with Void Stalker finisher if you want to stay in operator form)

I'm talking about giving them a finisher attack if they have Void Stalker. The damage could scale based on the rank of the ability, and maybe it uses the stats of your Amp in terms of raw damage, attack speed and crit

Operators themselves should NEVER be able to use melee weapons. Not even daggers. It takes the incredible strength, limitless stamina and lightning speed of a Warframe to be able to do what we do. Look at how thick the Grineer's armour is, and how easily we cleave through them with blades, crush them with hammers, and puncture them with daggers. An Operator shouldn't ever have that kind of strength.

If Operators in general need to get melee at some point, it should be based around the Amp. Either as an upgrade, an alternate form, or simply a second amp on the left arm, but it should all be Void-energy based. I could happily imagine a Void Whip, a Void Dagger, Void Shield/Sword, Void Staff and maybe even a Void Gunblade for a bit of hybridisation. The idea here is that none of them are physical weapons. The Gunblade would really just be a blade of energy around your hand, with the gun-part being a blast from your equipped amp perhaps (or some default blast), and the shield would be like 

Probably the best alternative to making it based around the Amp would be in making it a new node in the Focus Schools. Naramon would get the Dagger, Madurai would get the Gunblade, Unariu would get the Sword and Shield, Zenurik would get the Whip, and Vazarin would get the Staff. They've always sounded more like Martial Arts schools to me, so I feel like that would be fitting.

Now that's just some idea-tossing in the event that we NEED melee attacks for the Operator. I'd be happy either way, as long as Operators get more use than just Teralyst farmers

[Kalvorax]

Spoiler

 

9 hours ago, Xarteros said:

In answerance:
 

I'm talking about giving them a finisher attack if they have Void Stalker. The damage could scale based on the rank of the ability, and maybe it uses the stats of your Amp in terms of raw damage, attack speed and crit

Operators themselves should NEVER be able to use melee weapons. Not even daggers. It takes the incredible strength, limitless stamina and lightning speed of a Warframe to be able to do what we do. Look at how thick the Grineer's armour is, and how easily we cleave through them with blades, crush them with hammers, and puncture them with daggers. An Operator shouldn't ever have that kind of strength.

If Operators in general need to get melee at some point, it should be based around the Amp. Either as an upgrade, an alternate form, or simply a second amp on the left arm, but it should all be Void-energy based. I could happily imagine a Void Whip, a Void Dagger, Void Shield/Sword, Void Staff and maybe even a Void Gunblade for a bit of hybridisation. The idea here is that none of them are physical weapons. The Gunblade would really just be a blade of energy around your hand, with the gun-part being a blast from your equipped amp perhaps (or some default blast), and the shield would be like 

Probably the best alternative to making it based around the Amp would be in making it a new node in the Focus Schools. Naramon would get the Dagger, Madurai would get the Gunblade, Unariu would get the Sword and Shield, Zenurik would get the Whip, and Vazarin would get the Staff. They've always sounded more like Martial Arts schools to me, so I feel like that would be fitting.

Now that's just some idea-tossing in the event that we NEED melee attacks for the Operator. I'd be happy either way, as long as Operators get more use than just Teralyst farmers

 

 

ah ok, i missed that during the read thru. thanks for clarifying.

[Mortico]

@MayssonFairbanks agreed. Naramon is the least interestimg reworked focus tree for me. Your Suggestions are logical and Great. I applaud to you! Hope DE will take something of that! I believe in you DE guys and ladies  ! <3

[Kalvorax]

So i was looking at Brozeime's Devstream overview for 100...apparently there is discussion about adding melee weapons for Operators. (maybe the Zaws? would make sense considering the Ostron use them). That alone could help out with quite a bit of Naramon i think.

[MayssonFairbanks]

Sup Tennos, thanks for the replies & feedback. That thread was made about 2 weeks ago and I had limited experience with the tree, anyway I completely agree with your views as well as your suggestions.

-About executing / surging dash: is not as bad as expected, because on-demand finishers can come in handy, but it certainly has big practical issues as well as synergy issues, as you guys pointed out.

-About Operator melee weapons: I get the point of Amps, because it's void energy, but I too fail to see the relevance and the point of Operator melee, unless it only deals void damage, and DE adds enemies who are immune to anything but Operator melee. In which case this achieves nothing, all it does is make operator melee a very situational gimmick. Maybe DE will find another way, but so far this idea seems pointless and redundant.

-About focus costs tweaks: Devstream #100 was a step in the right direction, and tweaking these absurd costs does make sense. However imho I would rather they focus on buffing nodes. Because if these nodes were actually fun to use and powerful, then the costs would be justified.

As long as the reward is worth the time and effort, then usually players don't mind grinding. After all this game is all about grinding, in fact, one might argue that life itself is all about grinding, so in a way, the grind itself is not the issue; the reward is. At the moment some of these abilities are so underwhelming and cumbersome that even if they were free, they would still be not worth using.

-Speaking of making nodes interesting, how about making way-bound passives affect both the Operator and the warframe? No harm in that considering how small these buffs are, not to mention it would more than justify the focus cost. 

-Again, I'm sorry for repeating myself but DE should think about re-introducing Shadow Step back in a balanced form. From a theme and gameplay point of view, it was the heart of Naramon, the most defining aspect of the Naramon tree along with the crit buff, and players such as yours truly, who are all about stealth and making targets oblivious to our presence, litteral space ninjas as it were, completely lost the most essential part of our playstyle, and got nothing to make up for it. Not only was it essential, it was also a great equalizer, because it allowed players a lot of freedom when it came to gear & loadout, and the loss of shadow step means we are now restricted to a couple of warframes such as Ivara and Loki... Bringing back nerfed Shadow Step would be such a quick and easy fix to Naramon's thematic and gameplay issues.

-Speaking of gameplay restrictions, naramon 2.0 aslo puts serious restrictions on how the player actually plays the game, on their actual in-game experience. Because unlike 1.0 which was "fire and forget once in a while", focus 2.0 is "constantly go out of your way, break the flow of unending bloodshed, just to get a couple of procs". This does not fit the fast-paced, over-the-top gameplay of Warframe. Therefore, turning some of these nodes into actual passives would be a cool idea, maybe.

-Also it seems that Naramon 2.0 makes Ash's toolkit kinda redundant... that's a shame because from a thematic perspective, Ash's profile screams "Naramon" yet he doesn't seem to get much benefits from this school. This was supposed to be the perfect storm, a match made in heaven... turns out both don't seem to work well together, do they?

Edited November 6, 2017 by MayssonFairbanks