Nightmare Mode Is Punishing... Not Difficult

[Winchester117]

I think the way nightmare mode is set up with all of it's "challenges" along with the fact that it's not optional and you cant turn it on or off is ridiculous. When you have no shields and draining health or energy its just plain screwed up and when there is no mini-map? You can just forget it.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that nightmare mode is quite simply BARKING MAD! 

[XCodes]

Eh, I'm not convinced no minimap is really even all that important.  On a few farming runs and for a lot of things during the Informer event, I wandered all over maps just opening lockers, smashing containers, and killing stuff.  You eventually get kind of a feel for map generation when you do that, and you eventually realize that there are very few rooms that spawn with 3 open exits from them.  I think the most I've seen on a single level is just 2 or 3.

There's the issue with the Timer/No Minimap combination, which basically means you lose any and all multi-objective missions, but personally I'd rather see Timer get the boot than No Minimap.  Timer is functionally very similar to Vampire Mode, and not even half as interesting.  Zero Gravity is also a mode that needs to die.  DE needs to understand that their gravity mechanics are @(*()$ atrocious (hell, I'd say the entire physics engine is bad), and they REALLY need to get better core mechanics going there before they start playing around with them in the various game types.

 

Two other modes that need to go are No Shields and No Energy.  If you're using a build that relies on abilities or shields, well then you're just SoL. If you really want, make a No Ultimates mode, but leave the other abilities active.  Taking away large portions of what a warframe does based on RNG and without warning is the definition of punishing.  I also wouldn't advocate any other modes that restrict any other build decisions aside from relatively minor stuff like No Starting Ammo/Items.  You drop in, your inventory is locked, and the only weapon you can use is your Melee until you find some bullets for your guns.

[SoanoS]

Hmm. Looks the main issue most players here are having is the combination of some of the more "punishing" mods. Perhaps DE should introduce a ruleset that some "mutators could not appear simultaneously and there would be a maximum of mods (1 for solo, 2 for 2 players etc), which would give people a bit less of a headache to deal with. Maybe throw a "no ammo mode" like suggested earlier too? And perhaps add some "minor nuisances" such as half ammo/energy/hp from pickups as well, just to dilute the pool a bit.

 

I am all for nightmare mode, but I would like to be able to opt out from a nightmare mission as well (maybe a checkbox on the map for each system?). Because sometimes I can't help my friends who are new to the game on Mercury because the map is covered in skulls for me. xD

Edited July 29, 2013 by SoanoS

[Callback]

Hmm. Looks the main issue most players here are having is the combination of some of the more "punishing" mods. Perhaps DE should introduce a ruleset that some "mutators could not appear simultaneously and there would be a maximum of mods (1 for solo, 2 for 2 players etc), which would give people a bit less of a headache to deal with. Maybe throw a "no ammo mode" like suggested earlier too? And perhaps add some "minor nuisances" such as half ammo/energy/hp from pickups as well, just to dilute the pool a bit.

 

I am all for nightmare mode, but I would like to be able to opt out from a nightmare mission as well (maybe a checkbox on the map for each system?). Because sometimes I can't help my friends who are new to the game on Mercury because the map is covered in skulls for me. xD

"no ammo" is permanently on, for the most part.  Only kills can drop ammo.  Boxes and lockers drop none.

[DB-Tenno]

 Because sometimes I can't help my friends who are new to the game on Mercury because the map is covered in skulls for me. xD

 

 

Mercury no longer has Nightmare Missions.

Edited July 29, 2013 by DB-Tenno

[SoanoS]

"no ammo" is permanently on, for the most part.  Only kills can drop ammo.  Boxes and lockers drop none.

 

I was talking about no ammo on spawn. Like remembering to take your guns but forgetting all the ammunition back to your Tenno-locker at the Tenno-base

[SoanoS]

Mercury no longer has Nightmare Missions.

 

Thank Celestia for that. I did that a couple of weeks ago and it was, well, a nightmare for my friend with his lvl 0 Excalibur. :D

[vieuxchat]

For those who don't want to read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU

 

I'm assuming, here, that the Nightmare Mode was intended to challenge players in order to give them rewards--higher risk, so bigger rewards. It was also meant to be a test of skill to challenge the player's ability to utilize their own skills against a range of different types of hindrances (No mini-map, HP drain, no shields, timer, vampire, and energy drain).

 

The intent behind the Nightmare Mode is great, and truly adds more to the game itself; but the execution of the it wasn't done well in my opinion. There isn't too huge of an issue with this because the Nightmare Modes only appear on very few nodes.

 

As an avid gamer, I like to challenge myself, and play difficult levels/games as any other thrill-seeker; but I also know the difference between when something is difficult, and when something is just plain punishing.

 

Here, the Nightmare Mode is just punishing. Not even difficult.

 

As some other have complained, the issue with the combined challenges adds great dysfunction to the game's mechanics:

 

For example, when you join a Nightmare mode and receive No Mini-Map and Timer there is little hope for your success as the maps are randomly generated every time, and you spend the entire span of the Timer just finding the objective/exit. Those who don't experience this issue are lucky enough to get a small map generation, or just plain lucky.

Another example is the HP Drain and No Shields. Lots of players would agree that this makes it difficult when, in-fact, it just adds a lot of tedium (so does the No Mini-Map stand-alone in general). You will spend most of the time crouched behind cover, and when you has seemingly coordinated your attack plan a hidden shield lancer knocks you from behind, and you are overwhelmed by machine-gun fire and basically die. The point is that no matter how much you plan something it will go awry. This is multiplied tenfold when you are pressured to make a move as you are being HP Drained with no protective shields.

And personally, I find the No Mini-Map to be just plain annoying. For obvious reasons.

 

These failures, and deaths mentioned in the examples, aren't a hiccup of the player's skill or choice. It is in, all honesty, the developer's fault for setting forth a mind-numbing obstacle (all great developers always makes mistakes don't worry DE!)

 

On a brighter note, other combinations such as Vampire and No Shields work great, Low Gravity isn't much of an issue, and No Shields w/ Energy Drain is fair too.

 

I have no problem with the Nightmare Modes being random, but maybe making it random AND lasting the entirety of a day is too much. Time is precious my friends. There could be an option to opt-out of the nightmare mission, and do the regular mission. Of course, by doing so you forfeit the rewards that entail with the Nightmare Mode option.

Or they simply could work like alert missions that have a set timer.

 

When it comes down to it, the Nightmare Mode needs a little more tweaking to make the experience fun, and accompanying to very skilled players while not making it time-consuming and unfair to those who choose to participate in it.

All of this wouldn't be relevant if we knew beforehand what drawbacks we would get.

For instance the no-shield/HP-drain can be countered with a stealth approach (Loki, with invis and continuity)

The only things that will prevent player from winning is the combo no minimap + timer as we don't have any way to know where to go apart the minimap. Why don't we get the map before getting on mission : we could try to learn it before getting on board. Or we could get some minimap pbject we could use 5 times in the level to get the minimap for 5 seconds.

 

I hope they won't nerf the difficulty but give us tools to overcome it.

Edited July 29, 2013 by vieuxchat

[merryfistmas]

I have to agree with you. I absolutely hate nightmare mode. It's isn't even hard, there's just the occasional BS combinations that will make the mission virtually unwinnable.

[Eirshy]

Ugh, wishing I farmed up Constitution (only dual mod I'm missing) before some of these got added.

 

 

The problem mostly stems from not knowing what you're getting before going in (something they mentioned last livestream that they felt should be fixed). If you know what you're getting going in, you can build around it and not end up being in a 10-armor caster frame with Zorens during no energy no shields melee only.

 

 

 

No Minimap should only be allowed on Extermination, and should never spawn with a speed-critical mutator in conjunction (so no Vampire, no Timer). If mission objectives got standard HUD waypoints still, then you can put it on basically everything regardless.

 

I don't get the complaints about low grav, personally I think that one should be thrown in with the normal mutators (Fire and Ice). It's not really *bad*, it's kinda just amusing imo. And I do a lot of helicoptering, probably more than 90% of you.

 

No Energy and No Shield BOTH need to die in a fire until we're told ahead of time what we're getting. Either one of those makes a frame like Loki or Mag basically unplayable.

[Vipus]

Let the players know( or maybe even choose) which will be the mission modifiers would certainly make things a lot better. Still, Energy Drain (power reliant WF are completely useless) and no Mini map have to go.

Why not use those drones we faced in the event for nightmare mode? instead of just not having a map let players kill them to show the way and it becomes kinda different from normal gameplay, maybe even increase their map disruption range a bit more?

Great idea. DEvs definitely should give it some thought.

 

Also, no shields is way too much. Most of the Warframes actually rely on then to survive, so unless you're using Rhino or Frost, the game turns into pretty much 1 hit kill. The halved shields penalty from ice missions is more than enough.

[cary2010haha]

Eh, I'm not convinced no minimap is really even all that important.  On a few farming runs and for a lot of things during the Informer event, I wandered all over maps just opening lockers, smashing containers, and killing stuff.  You eventually get kind of a feel for map generation when you do that, and you eventually realize that there are very few rooms that spawn with 3 open exits from them.  I think the most I've seen on a single level is just 2 or 3.

There's the issue with the Timer/No Minimap combination, which basically means you lose any and all multi-objective missions, but personally I'd rather see Timer get the boot than No Minimap.  Timer is functionally very similar to Vampire Mode, and not even half as interesting.  Zero Gravity is also a mode that needs to die.  DE needs to understand that their gravity mechanics are @(*()$ atrocious (hell, I'd say the entire physics engine is bad), and they REALLY need to get better core mechanics going there before they start playing around with them in the various game types.

 

Two other modes that need to go are No Shields and No Energy.  If you're using a build that relies on abilities or shields, well then you're just SoL. If you really want, make a No Ultimates mode, but leave the other abilities active.  Taking away large portions of what a warframe does based on RNG and without warning is the definition of punishing.  I also wouldn't advocate any other modes that restrict any other build decisions aside from relatively minor stuff like No Starting Ammo/Items.  You drop in, your inventory is locked, and the only weapon you can use is your Melee until you find some bullets for your guns.

why not try a exterminate without mini map, without maker i really want to know how you know enemy didn't spawn at the room you just pass, and after you go through few more rooms (by using your find your own way is so easy, rooms only have few exit theory)you already totally lost you final kill, the more rooms you pass, the less chance you complete the mission

Edited July 29, 2013 by Cary2010haha

[Clazzeh]

I do not understand how this is an issue, if you dont like the NIGHTMARE difficulty then ask for jsut a hard mode or just dont play the NIGIHTMARE difficulty as it is suppose to be NIGHTMARE as in punishing, and befor eyou all start going off saying how this is fan boyism or whatever just dont.

 

This game for me has been a cake walk from mercury to pluto, and I enjoy it, but nightmare mode is a mode I cannot beat without putting in time, effort, and care into the level. True some could use some work, like a fire level where you are auto detected while you have no health, shields or energy is a bit too unfair, but if its a regular mission, even high lever its still possible to win regardless of the odds. I just go in solo as my loki with rage generally to help slow the energy degradation and stealth kill em all.

[Kyrkitao]

I do not understand how this is an issue, if you dont like the NIGHTMARE difficulty then ask for jsut a hard mode or just dont play the NIGIHTMARE difficulty as it is suppose to be NIGHTMARE as in punishing, and befor eyou all start going off saying how this is fan boyism or whatever just dont.

 

This game for me has been a cake walk from mercury to pluto, and I enjoy it, but nightmare mode is a mode I cannot beat without putting in time, effort, and care into the level. True some could use some work, like a fire level where you are auto detected while you have no health, shields or energy is a bit too unfair, but if its a regular mission, even high lever its still possible to win regardless of the odds. I just go in solo as my loki with rage generally to help slow the energy degradation and stealth kill em all.

Saying "don't call it fanboyism because I told you not to" does not diffuse anyone who would make the accusation and encourages people to do it.

The game has been easy from Mercury to Pluto, but that doesn't justify making frustration mode. I don't object to most of the possibilities for nightmare mode (though mapless/objectiveless needs to go), but I wish they would give us information before we entered the level so that we can prepare. I agree that these are all fake difficulty and we should not encourage fake difficulty, but it is better than no difficulty.

[Callback]

Wait... Does health vampire's drain count as health damage for rage?  I need to try that.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Callback

[LazyKnight]

Wait... Does health vampire's drain count as health damage for rage?  I need to try that.

It did before the latest hotfix, unless it was changed it should still work but if you have energy drain too it wouldn't be enough to get power back.

 

 

I do not understand how this is an issue, if you dont like the NIGHTMARE difficulty then ask for jsut a hard mode or just dont play the NIGIHTMARE difficulty as it is suppose to be NIGHTMARE as in punishing, and befor eyou all start going off saying how this is fan boyism or whatever just dont.

 

 

I wouldn't have an issue if it was told to me beforehand what the handicap was for each mission. Currently, when I go into a N-mission it is safer to just ditch everything but vitally and armor mods because there is a good chance all other mods will be turned off.

Edited July 29, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Callback]

Rhino is the only "safe" choice, and must have max streamline to pop off an iron skin immediately upon loading in if energy drain is on, as well as focus to maximize the shield value.  Vitality and rage together are also powerful (if it works that way) since the vampire ticks are for a percentage of your health you can charge more to counter the energy drain and at least slow down your loss when picking up orbs.  I think with a team of 4 syphon mods and rage on you will actually start regenning even on drain mode.

[TheHeraldXII]

I'm on the "too much" side of this. Taking away core mechanics of the game like, you know, shields is just ridiculous and all it does in reality is make certain frames unusable in Nightmare mode. Sure I can just run it with a Rhino and put up IS all day every day but that's not exactly my idea of fun. Nightmare should be challenging and put an interesting obstacle for me to overcome in the way, not simply play Rhino or go home.

Admittedly I'm mainly a solo player and if I had good teammates backing me up it'd be fine, but as someone else pointed out, people avoid nightmare nodes like they're toxic ancients.

Mainly the problems I have are the "no shields", which really should just be the ice condition in my opinion and the energy drain, which I think should recharge like health in vampire. The mutators should change up the way you play but not in such a way that you're forced to play a certain 'frame or lose.

 

P.S, I'd much prefer nightmare mode if it threw curveballs at us, like bosses spawning outside of assassinations or the level getting destroyed piece by piece after we complete the objective, rather than just removing basic elements of the game like shields, energy, the minimap, etc. Vampire mode is a good example.

[FLSH_BNG]

@CrazzyAzn

 

All this stuff that makes it harder to play... it's almost like this mode of play is a NIGHTMARE!

 

-________-

[Tidezen]

I personally already got everything I needed from nightmare modes before this change happened.  Boy am I glad for that, because Energy Drain?...who the heck thought that was a good idea?  The abilities are THE main defining point of the game.  You take those away, and suddenly I'm just playing shooter #37498502.  Oh yeah but I can do some cool flips too.

 

I'm not commenting on the difficulty at all, I haven't played a nightmare mode since I spent two full days doing nothing but that last week.  And why was I doing that?  Oh yeah, for a constitution mod, so I could make my abilities more energy efficient, and hence cast them more often.

 

My one big beef with this game is that it still feels too "shooter-y", that is, I wish there were more abilities to supplement the gunplay.  The moveset is pretty slim, which I don't expect will improve much since this is being released as a console game too.  

 

And lol at taking away shields too.  I know, how about a "Wolfenstein3D" mode, where you take away abilities, shields, and all the acrobatic moves too?  None of that pesky jumping around either.  Because as a 13-year-old kid playing Wolf3D, all I really ever wanted was for shooters to stay the exact same for the next twenty years, only updating graphics along the way.  I mean, didn't everyone? >.>

 

Or here's an idea: artificially crippling the player character, who we've already spent hours and hours building up, isn't fun.  There are better ways to make a game challenging than by stripping away the unique and interesting abilities that define your different classes, and that make your game different from the kajilllions of other FPSes out there.

[Ariarch]

i seriously don't get how people are fine with the no minimap mode, especially missions with 4 sabotage targets or 4 spy targets + more. doable, but not in the slightest bit challenging and/or fun.

it's like they dont actually play nightmare mode intensively or not even playing it at all.

schadenfreude all over the place.

Schadenfreude is someone else's pain making someone else happy.

That does not fit the definition.

[Endorphinz]

With the exception of the minimap-removal, I actually think nightmare mode is a welcome challenge for more experienced players. My main gripe (and I hope you DE guys are reading this, people have been bringing it up since day one) is that it should be able to be switched off. If you did just that, people would be complaining a lot less, because they wouldn't be forced to endure having their favorite farming node turned into a nightmare for a day. Yeah?

[Ddublu]

after reading about 10% of the posts; okay actually like the first 5 orso posts on page 1 I kinda came up with the idea of limiting what modes can be on certain mission types. Probably already mentioned; so if it is, then I'll say that I agree with w/e :D.

Anyways I don't personally know ALL the modes but I think the following can be safe to assume as being alright on difficulty: (just gonna list what I think is understandable to be on each type of mission.

EDIT: Too lazy to delete so basically as I was writing the list I saw that basically I'd allow any one of the modes except for no minimap; save for on defense missions where having a minimap is mostly unneeded anyway. Instead I'll just state each mode combo that shouldn't exist:

Minimap

No Minimap on any non-killing mission; so basically anything except Defense missions and plausibly Exterminate if the minimap showed back up after everything was dead. Also This mode should never be combo'd with a Timer as you'd almost guarantee failure since a player won't be able to see where to go to make it in time.

Vampire/Energy Drain:

The only two drain type of modes. In my honest opinion both are fine. The only things I would suggest against is having them available on perhaps Exterminate and Defense missions. Moreso on the defense missions since theres that 8sec delay between killing things. A bad combo would be Vampire and no Shields on Defense missions. Despite being bugged to where some people keep shields; having your only source of life drained while it also is very vulnerable is a bad thing that prompts people having to pay more attention to reviving allies than guarding something to succeed. Energy drain is more like something that slows down Energy Siphon >.>

Low Grav:

This just feels like a ridiculously silly mode that really doesn't do anything to change difficulty on missions since it only seemingly affects players and drops. I am fine with it being on any mission and with any other modes because of that reason.

No Shields:

This actually feels like it puts a good challenge on missions; since it removes the only real easily renewed defenses. It forces players to think more defensively when engaging rooms; and having to seek cover to prevent death. Again this is badly combo'd with Vampire in most cases; though depending on how fast a team can kill S#&$ it may not matter as much.

Timer:

Ah... this one is much like Vampire since you do get time back while killing S#&$. It puts a good challenge on most missions; however I'd change it so that you get the full time before and after killing a boss. This just seems most fair. Although I do realize Assassination maps are generally small so you'd probably be at near max time anyway. I can't really say anything more about this other than it should NEVER be paired with No Minimap for very obvious and previously stated reasons

I think that's all the modes I know of. I also noticed that apparently Nightmare Mode lacks ammo drops from lockers; but does that mean only mobs drop ammo? In either case I am okay with that since most people probably should be caring at least two ammo boxes for primary and secondary anyway; maybe 4 of each if both weapons are spamcannons.

[Ddublu]

Sorry for double posting but anyways; does it really last a day? I thought they changed after a few hours O.o;

If they don't change all day; then I'd recommend that something be Nightmare mode for 2-3 hours of a day before it cycles to a new node.

[Callback]

The droprate for blaze is insane too.  I've run 180 and still not gotten it, only a single hammer shot.  No minimap should be reworked to drop waypoints on your HUD. For now, it's just a trigger to abort and not even play.