POE farming isn't warframe.

[JuicyPop]

The problem is that, while there are many things to grind on PoE, there is really no objective reason to be there, especially during the day. The bounty rewards aren't compelling and outside of Zaws and the Fosfor blueprints, I see nothing of utility to be earned that can be incorporated into normal play unless you really believe that maxed Operators/Waybounds are going to be core to some end game element that doesn't yet exist. It's the worst form of grinding, that for its own sake with no clear payoff. 

The gunplay in WF is satisfying enough that I can sit in Heiracon for hours on end every day and derive enjoyment. I cannot say the same for elements that are distinctly unrelated to the combat loops such as fishing/mining/etc. because I'm not actually playing the game while I'm collecting. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Lunaro gets you standing that can actually get you 3 frames and attachments, how is that not part of farming? Out of all the players there must be some who took that route to get those items. 

Fishing has grineer or vomvalysts bugging you. So much so that some players complain and say they just wanna fish and be left alone. 

Now there’s a poster saying he sells fish and there are willing customers. That makes fishing part of the economy now.

SO, If you don’t want to fish, farm in other modes you like then pay those who specialize/favor fishing. Similar to buying syndicate mods from those who wish to farm in syndicates other than yours 

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Lunaro gets you standing that can actually get you 3 frames and attachments, how is that not part of farming? Out of all the players there must be some who took that route to get those items. 

Fishing has grineer or vomvalysts bugging you. So much so that some players complain and say they just wanna fish and be left alone. 

Now there’s a poster saying he sells fish and there are willing customers. That makes fishing part of the economy now.

SO, If you don’t want to fish, farm in other modes you like then pay those who specialize/favor fishing. Similar to buying syndicate mods from those who wish to farm in syndicates other than yours 

Except that with Syndicate stuff, you have the option to grind it yourself WHILE STILL PLAYING WARFRAME. 

Fishing DOES NOT give you this option. Either you fish, or you play the game. OR. Not And, OR. Why is it so hard to get across to people, that some people don't want WARFRAME progress, gated behind MINECRAFT game play?

If I wanted to spend hours fishing, I would play one of countless games ABOUT fishing. Probably one where the Big Mouth Mass wasn't a rare spawn that didn't actually exist in the game, except as a myth to sell bait that doesn't actually work and never should have existed to begin with.

Edited November 19, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[(PSN)Chel-El]

So buy it with plat then, like I said it’s already in the economy a player here is selling them. 

Another example- There’s players on wiki suggesting not to farm Ivara because RNG. They suggest to farm other things for plat then pay for her.

Does this method of trading not apply to those who think they’re forced to fish or those who just don’t wanna do it. 

You don’t wanna walk? Then pay for a cab fare. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[JuicyPop]

Just now, (PS4)Chel-El said:

So buy it with plat then, like I said it’s already in the economy a player here is selling them. 

Another example- There’s players on wiki suggesting not to farm Ivara because RNG. They suggest to farm other things for plat then pay for her.

Does this not apply to those who think they’re forced to fish or those who just don’t wanna do it. 

And then we have this sort of frustrating mentality, that poor design elements can be excused simply because some poor sap is willing to do it.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

It’s called a workaround 

that guy who would rather play/farm in Heroacon?

Go ahead, then buy and sell to purchase your Eidolon needs

This is what working people do amirite? 

[JuicyPop]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

It’s called a workaround 

that guy who would rather play/farm in Heroacon?

Go ahead, then buy and sell to purchase your Eidolon needs

This is what working people do amirite? 

A workaround is supposed to be a temporary solution to an immediate problem while something more elegant is developed.

Sure, you can acquire fish through the market at a premium but how sustainable is that niche? It works in the present given that PoE is a recent addition and there is a general interest despite its many flaws, but it's not likely to be a sustainable element as we progress through successive content updates. Activities that generate critical resources need to, at the very least, mesh with the core gameplay loops or the content that they underpin will be at risk. 

If DE wants the open world theme to be a resounding success that defines their game then they need to give the majority of their playerbase reasons to actually enter that realm. WF at its core is still supposed to be a form of entertainment, so you cannot seriously argue that a healthy future for PoE would entail several hundred players carving out a niche as fishers to profit off the fact that the content is so tedious and unsatisfying that most would rather pay to skip it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Baro Kteer, trade, or farm the primes for yourself 

Solar chart farming, trade or Eidolon farm for yourself 

what’s the diff? 

[JuicyPop]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Baro Kteer, trade, or farm the primes for yourself 

Solar chart farming, trade or Eidolon farm for yourself 

what’s the diff? 

If you're not going to at least read and respond in detail, then please understand that it is no longer worth my time to respond to you.

And the difference in this case is that those resources are acquired through primary gameplay loops, not a mini-game that stands to the side. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Nobody is forcing me to do derelict runs, I get premium mods from Baro or trade

Nobody is forcing anyone to fish or mine, I presented an alternative I’m sure there will be others as we play along  

thats a great idea!

make an NPC (I choose Nakak or Saya) the Barokteer of Eidolon, those who want alternative means can trade with them instead 

Edited November 19, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[JuicyPop]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Nobody is forcing me to do derelict runs, I get premium mods from Baro or trade

Nobody is forcing anyone to fish or mine, I presented an alternative I’m sure there will be others as we play along  

Some caste of players along the line most certainly have to and that experience simply doesn't mesh with the game in the slightest whereas Derelict runs are just another arm of a mission system in a gameplay loop dedicated to gunplay. 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)Chel-El]

At this point

Just pm that guy who posted that he sells fish if you’re on the same platform 

[JuicyPop]

You do realize that this thread is intended for the discussion of the design behind the systems – what they should aspire to – not the workarounds to deal with them in the present? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)Chel-El]

I may have been wrong to call fish trade a workaround in retrospect.

Because we already have people who specialize in plat making, farming, buying and selling. So it’s already intrinsic in the system! 

On another note 

I have decent aim carried over from playing Overwatch’s Widowmaker.  Fishing is really not that diff from sniping. 

Just think of the big blue as a big loot crate, with swimming loot. It’s not that hard apply yourself to it really. Mechanically you already have the aim, it’s just a lack of imagination or willingness to try this new farm system 

 

[JuicyPop]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

I may have been wrong to call fish trade a workaround in retrospect.

Because we already have people who specialize in plat making, farming, buying and selling. So it’s already intrinsic in the system! 

On another note 

I have decent aim carried over from playing Overwatch’s Widowmaker.  Fishing is really not that diff from sniping. 

Just think of the big blue as a big loot crate, with swimming loot. It’s not that hard apply yourself to it really. Mechanically you already have the aim, it’s just a lack of imagination or willingness to try this new farm system 

 

It's not a question of the how, it's the why.

Why is an activity outside of the core gameplay loop – apparently the most efficient way is to do it yourself instead of stealing/looting from other factions – underpinning a new syndicate whose sole purpose is to gate advancement through a new arm of that loop? The grind certainly isn't the issue or else we wouldn't be here, it's the nature of it that poses an issue. It's not as if DE is intentionally creating frustrating content to push platinum sales either or else the content in question would be available through the market.

So, what is the virtue in these systems that can only ever turn away players from the content? How does it even make sense from a lore standpoint that fish from a particular part of Earth are fundamental to channeling a cosmic power that borders on magic? Why is it that the Quills have not informed Onko that these fish and gemstones are so important and that maybe he should offer them to the Tenno in return for their services?

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, JuicyPop said:

It's not a question of the how, it's the why.

Why is an activity outside of the core gameplay loop – apparently the most efficient way is to do it yourself instead of stealing/looting from other factions – underpinning a new syndicate whose sole purpose is to gate advancement through a new arm of that loop? The grind certainly isn't the issue or else we wouldn't be here, it's the nature of it that poses an issue. It's not as if DE is intentionally creating frustrating content to push platinum sales either or else the content in question would be available through the market.

So, what is the virtue in these systems that can only ever turn away players from the content? How does it even make sense from a lore standpoint that fish from a particular part of Earth are fundamental to channeling a cosmic power that borders on magic? Why is it that the Quills have not informed Onko that these fish and gemstones are so important and that maybe he should offer them to the Tenno in return for their services?

 

Except it IS to push plat sales. Fish can be traded.

Not that I will ever, ever use Plat for one. Or Hara, for that matter. But yeah...this is YET ANOTHER example of the business model being far more important than lore, game play or enjoyment.

Thing is...there's a threshold for this sort of thing. A line that you can cross, after which you lose the community. Once your business model turns a game into an online store with a barely relevant interactive mode, you start losing people. Fast. DE seems oblivious to the fact that theres out so far you can push with this sort of thing...but brief increase for PoE aside, they aren't growing the player base much at all...

Edited November 19, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[JuicyPop]

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except it IS to push plat sales. Fish can be traded.

Not that I will ever, ever use Plat for one. Or Hara, for that matter. But yeah...this is YET ANOTHER example of the business model being far more important than lore, game play or enjoyment.

Thing is...there's a threshold for this sort of thing. A line that you can cross, after which you lose the community. Once your business model turns a game into an online store with a barely relevant interactive mode, you start losing people. Fast. DE seems oblivious to the fact that theres out so far you can push with this sort of thing...but brief increase for PoE aside, they aren't growing the player base much at all...

Well, if that was their intention, then the indirect method seems silly because there is the inherent risk that players will be so put off by the tedium that very few will actively farm it out to trade. The safer method would have been to put the choice drops, not just the common parts, in the fish vendor's plat exchange so that their sales bump is not overly dependent upon engagement.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point.

Edited November 19, 2017 by JuicyPop

[Ardhanarishvara]

Honestly the way that I deal with mining and fishing in the plains is to, generally, do it during the day. Do the T5 bounty to gain access to T3 incursions, then run around mining and fishing wherever until an Incursion pops up, and do that for +800 standing, alternating between just parkour fun and the relaxing farming and the intensity of combat so it becomes bearable for long periods. Over a single session of 100 minutes, it's possible to get over 10k standing, which is more than half of the daily standing. If you do 150 and fish for Mortus Lungfish at night, then you can darn near cap your daily standing in a single 150 minute session, and come out with loads of mining and fishing resources on top.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

14 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Honestly the way that I deal with mining and fishing in the plains is to, generally, do it during the day. Do the T5 bounty to gain access to T3 incursions, then run around mining and fishing wherever until an Incursion pops up, and do that for +800 standing, alternating between just parkour fun and the relaxing farming and the intensity of combat so it becomes bearable for long periods. Over a single session of 100 minutes, it's possible to get over 10k standing, which is more than half of the daily standing. If you do 150 and fish for Mortus Lungfish at night, then you can darn near cap your daily standing in a single 150 minute session, and come out with loads of mining and fishing resources on top.

Thank you 

I’ve said this too in my way on another post. You can loop the farm with the bounties or Lotus’ missions 

the minimap reveals water, aim gliding while traveling reveals gems and other resources

what else are you gonna do on that downtime? do tell 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[IconianCat]

On 11/18/2017 at 12:56 PM, Azrael said:

Agreed, Quills standing is a bigger problem than fishing. If you can't hunt teralysts then you're stuck hunting voms, which is easy to do but will take forever to get any real standing from. The only saving grace is that if you don't want to fight teralysts, you don't really need much of anything from the quills anyway. Hopefully additional sources of quills standing will be added in the future.

ive gotta say i dont exactly have the best luck with RNG as is and the cores have a 30% drop from vomvalysts. ive also noticed since infested started spawning vomvalysts are much rarer. aside from event stuff this is the most insanely ridiculous grind ive ever seen in a game. i spent a night specifically, SPECIFICALLY, hunting vomvalysts. full 50 minutes the entire night cycle and got 1700 standing. 17 cores. from an entire night. i also couldnt find a team to fight the eidolon. THIS IS INSANE DE. you cant even justify it with microtransactions cause you cant buy the cores either. you wanna tell me i NEED to hunt the eidolon for 5-8 nights to get enough standing to make meaningful progress with the quills????? look i gett its supposed to upgrade your operator in pretty substantial ways. but the eidolon is already a difficult hunt without top notch gear and i know the plains is endgame but seriously the eidolon has a 75-90% RAW DAMAGE RESISTANCE. i have a soma prime modded to do 400 damage per shot on a crit and it does 55 to the eidolon. this is insanity. of all the fights in warframe this is the biggest META fight there is. you HAVE to have one of the crit weapons for it with high ammo efficiency and high damage or else youll just run out of damage when your ammo dries up. these resistances should be brought down if youre going to make the cores drop so rarely in general and just make the eidolon more spongy to make up for it so people arent restricted to a lsit of like 10 weapons that can actually be useful. i get it warframe is a grindy game by nature but come the F*** on. not to mention some people dont have the schedule to spend 6-7 hours JUST on the nights to hunt the eidolon when they might not have a team to do it.

 

EDIT:

one thing i didnt add which im coming back to add since its related to syndicates. i really dont like the daily standing cap. its way to restrictive with how many syndicates there are. id rather that syndicate standing scales with amount on your MR so lets say the base bounty in the plains gives 1200 standing at MR 8 but at MR16 it gives 2400. and theres no standing cap each day so people can grind up as much as they have the time for instead of suddenly getting a free day but because of a stupid standing cap can only get 10k which BTW no matter what syndicate you level up takes 3 total days of that minimum (the 22k standing level) to finish and then much more for each subsequent level. this system is really discouraging DE its not spreading the game time out its limiting people who have a less flexible schedule someone might only get 30 minutes a day or so but they get a day off from work and get 4 hours. if they put all their time to syndicate grinding theyll hit their cap then be out of luck till their next day off. id rather see standing amounts change (in some cases increasing in others staying the same or decreasing slightly) and have the amounts scale with mastery rank.

Edited November 19, 2017 by hainscat

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

Gonna have to disagree with you. It’s a small deviation from the standard gameplay loop were used to, but not so much so that it isn’t Warframe anymore. Everything we do in Plains is something we do elsewhere in Warframe.

Mining: A more intricate version of scanning. Requiring you to trace an outline to complete it.

Fishing: No different than picking off enemies with any other projectile based weapon, but this time you have to actually aim instead of spray and pray.

Resource Gathering: How is this different than before? Because it doesn’t actively drop from enemies and you have to find them out in the wild?

This update has given us so much, and I’m happy about it. Aside from the Gara part drop rate, I have nothing negative to say. It brought me back and I’m actively playing Warframe again.

[JuicyPop]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

Gonna have to disagree with you. It’s a small deviation from the standard gameplay loop were used to, but not so much so that it isn’t Warframe anymore. Everything we do in Plains is something we do elsewhere in Warframe.

Mining: A more intricate version of scanning. Requiring you to trace an outline to complete it.

Fishing: No different than picking off enemies with any other projectile based weapon, but this time you have to actually aim instead of spray and pray.

Resource Gathering: How is this different than before? Because it doesn’t actively drop from enemies and you have to find them out in the wild?

This update has given us so much, and I’m happy about it. Aside from the Gara part drop rate, I have nothing negative to say. It brought me back and I’m actively playing Warframe again.

The difference is the complete lack of interaction with hostile NPCs which underpins the loop that supports the rest of the game.

Warframe is satisfying almost solely because of the combat system and when you farm any other material on the star chart you are doing so primarily through that loop [select node, kill enemies, loot items, complete objectives, return to base, craft items, repeat]. That loop constitutes the entire breadth of content that can be experienced within the game and when you purchase/craft new items and frames it is with the intention of returning to it and cycling through endlessly. That is Warframe in its entirety.

I'm not going to say that fishing and mining can't be interlaced into the experience in a way that is acceptable, but as it stands you have to make the choice to stop playing Warframe to farm items that can then only be used when you return to the loop. It's purely nonsensical design. 

 

[IconianCat]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

Gonna have to disagree with you. It’s a small deviation from the standard gameplay loop were used to, but not so much so that it isn’t Warframe anymore. Everything we do in Plains is something we do elsewhere in Warframe.

Mining: A more intricate version of scanning. Requiring you to trace an outline to complete it.

Fishing: No different than picking off enemies with any other projectile based weapon, but this time you have to actually aim instead of spray and pray.

Resource Gathering: How is this different than before? Because it doesn’t actively drop from enemies and you have to find them out in the wild?

This update has given us so much, and I’m happy about it. Aside from the Gara part drop rate, I have nothing negative to say. It brought me back and I’m actively playing Warframe again.

no this is ridiculous. yes its all similar to what we have elsewhere but its not even CLOSE to the level of grindyness it has.using a nekros with maxed out mods for resource grinding you can clock up to 4000 plastids from the Assur dark sector on uranus. you can get mutagen samples much easier though those are still excessively rare. scanning isnt integral to level up (tho i have no gripes with the mining system) fishing is like mining and not like killing enemies since it requires use of bait for certain fish so its a new system entirely. but resource gathering for quills standing is absurd. this system takes the normal grind for mutagen samples turns the difficulty up to 11 then says F*** you to the drop rates. 30% to get a core which gives 100 standing from a vomvalyst. 30%. THIRTY percent. thats absurd lets say in a single night HUNTING the eidolon so extra vomvalysts spawn to defend it you kill 50 vomvalysts. and lets say you have perfect lures so you get a flawless core and get exceptional cores form each weak point. you have four lures which require 16 vomvalysts total to cahrge them all. so you only get 34 vomvalysts to kill. of those you only get 8-10 cores from the 30% drop rate which is 1000 standing plus 2500 from all 5 exceptional cores plus 1200 from the flawless core 4700 standing. assuming you do everything perfectly not to mention how much standing is required to rank up to get the arcanes and thats assuming you can still get a team capable of reliable farming the eidolon.

[StabbyTentacles]

7 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

And then we have this sort of frustrating mentality, that poor design elements can be excused simply because some poor sap is willing to do it.

Lol, yeah, there's also the guy's who are so sick/burnt out with 'central,' run-gunning gameplay that they  tedious fishing/mining gameplay, just because it's 'new.'

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except it IS to push plat sales. Fish can be traded.

Not that I will ever, ever use Plat for one. Or Hara, for that matter. But yeah...this is YET ANOTHER example of the business model being far more important than lore, game play or enjoyment.

Thing is...there's a threshold for this sort of thing. A line that you can cross, after which you lose the community. Once your business model turns a game into an online store with a barely relevant interactive mode, you start losing people. Fast. DE seems oblivious to the fact that theres out so far you can push with this sort of thing...but brief increase for PoE aside, they aren't growing the player base much at all...

True.

3 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

Well, if that was their intention, then the indirect method seems silly because there is the inherent risk that players will be so put off by the tedium that very few will actively farm it out to trade. The safer method would have been to put the choice drops, not just the common parts, in the fish vendor's plat exchange so that their sales bump is not overly dependent upon engagement.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point.

I have been pushed off Warframe with the pointless, unnecessary PoE grind.

Played for years; have put my head down and 'dealt-with-it' when DE have made sweeping gamechanging adjustments.

But, there's a point where you just say: they what now? eah... well good luck with that. 

[(PSN)Chel-El]

It’s new POE and its systems 

NeoNess007 has a technique for rising in relay syndicates on YouTube

Pretty soon someone will  discover the PoE grind metas and it’ll be common knowledge, that is on wiki or YouTube as well.  

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El