Fears / Exploits About A Future Marketplace System - Don't Do It De

[pdxdubin]

A Market doesn't really have to get in the way of that stuff pdx. It is remarkably simple to just mark completed items - like Weapons and Warframes - so they can't be traded.

 

 In fact - if they simply market ALL the BPs and items you can buy from the market already as 'Untradeable' then all you've be able to trade is stuff people get as drops.

 

Well, no one knows what there doing.

To be specific, I just don't want the game to turn into Diablo III

To one day see giant lists of every item in the game, where you browse through 40 seer blue prints to find the cheaper one.

I want to see something crafty and creative.

 

Innovative and not lazy.

Take the alliance update for example.

If people did not get on the forums and speak their concerns, then we would be stuck with a system without any alliance chat or anything whatsoever.

The game is in beta, the forums are here to give DE ideas, and to relay opinions.

Hopefully someone will post one thing in this thread that will make the marketplace better!

That's the whole point ;p 

[pdxdubin]

 I think it'd be a pretty meaningless limitation to force all market action to exist only within clans.

 

 However I'd expect and be greatly in favor of a method built into the market that lets you use your clan as a filter.

 

 So if you really wanted to keep everything within your own clan all you needed to do was click the right button.

 

 

 Imagine how much GOOD it would do the players to have the issue of "I've farmed 3 days for the systems of X Warframe" become "I couldn't get the drop myself so I found a guy on the market willing to part with it for a few half-decent mods as he cleaned out his foundry."

 

True. But then again there are 100,000's of people.

 

: P  I would like that as well, because I also am missing some parts.

But If there are 1000 of said parts to choose from then its going to get stale :P

And With the alliance update, and the ability to maybe visit other peoples dojo's

It would be cool to join someone in your alliance check their adds and see if they have what you want.

Make it a little more difficult then pointing a mouse and buying everything you want.

So you still have that sense of "earning" the item you want.

 

Like getting a good deal off craigslist, off buying something off amazon.

 

Know what i mean man?

[Blatantfool]

Well, no one knows what there doing.

To be specific, I just don't want the game to turn into Diablo III

To one day see giant lists of every item in the game, where you browse through 40 seer blue prints to find the cheaper one.

I want to see something crafty and creative.

 

Innovative and not lazy.

Take the alliance update for example.

If people did not get on the forums and speak their concerns, then we would be stuck with a system without any alliance chat or anything whatsoever.

The game is in beta, the forums are here to give DE ideas, and to relay opinions.

Hopefully someone will post one thing in this thread that will make the marketplace better!

That's the whole point ;p 

 

 I doubt it'll be a repeat of Diablo 3. A lot of very specific things had to happen in pretty specific ways for that catastrophe to play out.

[Blatantfool]

True. But then again there are 100,000's of people.

 

: P  I would like that as well, because I also am missing some parts.

But If there are 1000 of said parts to choose from then its going to get stale :P

And With the alliance update, and the ability to maybe visit other peoples dojo's

It would be cool to join someone in your alliance check their adds and see if they have what you want.

Make it a little more difficult then pointing a mouse and buying everything you want.

So you still have that sense of "earning" the item you want.

 

Like getting a good deal off craigslist, off buying something off amazon.

 

Know what i mean man?

 

 Not as staggering an issue as you may think.

 

 With a properly functioning search system there wont likely be an issue.

 

 Have all the no-brainer filters present.

 

 - Material trades

 - Component trades

 - Blueprint trades

 - Module trades

 

 And some special ones.

 

 -My Clan trades.

 -My Alliance trades.

 

 And then allow a player to type the name of a specific item to filter offers even further.

 

 

 I mean the solutions to these problems are so simple that games have done it for years.

[pdxdubin]

Gentlemen.

We are facing a tipping point in Warframe's life where history will look back and decide why this game succeeded or failed.

This game's tradeables are not substantial enough for a market of this nature to thrive. These goods are only labeled "rare" by the sheer fact that they are an uncommon occurrence in an otherwise very predictable world.

We do not share mobs, because levels are instanced. We do not have the items hidden from us, because the game tells us exactly where to look. We don't have to gamble because we have nothing to lose in exchange, and we have no fear of failure because all drops are certain whether it be now or later.

A market mechanic would undermine the fundamental core of the game's mechanics. People would no longer have to play to actually get anything; why bother, you can get it on the market. The capitalistic spirits would flock to the grind and pump out rarities and soon the word "Rare" would be a term describing a tier of value instead of a tier of sparsity. With nothing to look forward to people will grow complacent, and that is where things get sour. Happy people don't work, and if people aren't playing, then the game will die.

Everything one would gain from adding a market would strip from what makes Warframe the growing success it's becoming. Trivializing the game to satisfy a vocal minority would spite the masses who choose to gain the reward from the sweat of their labor. In the end, half will grow bored, the others will grow angry and everyone will will start spiriting away.

TL;DR : Market will trivialize everything about the game. Don't do it.

Diablo did and now it's a ghost town.

((http://techland.time.com/2013/03/28/diablo-3-director-admits-auction-houses-really-hurt-game/)

Well said 

[pdxdubin]

 Not as staggering an issue as you may think.

 

 With a properly functioning search system there wont likely be an issue.

 

 Have all the no-brainer filters present.

 

 - Material trades

 - Component trades

 - Blueprint trades

 - Module trades

 

 And some special ones.

 

 -My Clan trades.

 -My Alliance trades.

 

 And then allow a player to type the name of a specific item to filter offers even further.

 

 

 I mean the solutions to these problems are so simple that games have done it for years.

 

Its not about that I mean

There should be no search function...

Like my metaphor

 

The satisfactoin of making a trade or a deal with someone on craigslist, a good deal.

Going out there and meeting them to take it home, is like Awesome.

 

"Yeah! I just got a GREAT deal i feel so great!"

 

VS 

 

Going on amazon, buying the same ps3 for 250$ and getting it shipped to your house.

 

"Yay i just spent moneyyy.... Now I finally have a ps3" 

 

 

Sure both sides get what they want, and it makes them both happy.

 

But is that fun?

 

No man... 

Is buying resources fun? 

 

Yea... because I need them..

But I would rather go out and farm for that item, and know that EVERYONE is doing the same thing.

So that way when I see someone running around with the Braton Prime.

I know that we both earned it.

And when I see someone saying, "hey how did you get that WOW thats so hard to get?"

 

Versus 

 

Seeing someone "Oh did they just buy that off the marketplace, Cooolll... rich bastard"

 

^^^^^^

 

This removes the "incentive" of going out and farming this item.

Because the ease of access is so insensitive, that people really wont have the drive to go out and earn that "rare" item.

Because any 12 year old could go out and buy it.

It will remove the feeling of "Being better then other people" 

When I had my paris prime, I was showing it off man, Bragging to my clan about it.

 

"Haha hey guys LOOK WHAT I GOT"

 

And you know what?  That's fun, and you only get to do that for a little while.

 

How do you feel when your mastery rank 7 man.. running around with an acrid and showing people up.

Its fun dude...

Its the same thing with even mods.. and rare weapons.

You do these things, because you "want" to be better then everyone else, as soon as you can.

 

You are thinking about the generalized "big picture"  

 

"Hey some people want this, some people don't.  If they don't want them they don't have to buy them"

 

 

Well its not just about that.

Its about the little things...

 

The things you find in this game.. That keep you addicted with each instance.. 

Every time you remove one of these little details that make the game good, 

it will start to lose its character, and will turn into a generic meta of all other games.

 

 

 

[Mythrex]

Easy fix to your fears bought mods can't be resold DONE!

[P.s.Y]

I don't mean to Circlejerk, but pdx's statement is how i feel.

Having no Market is in fact a feature, and Warframe should be proud to keep it's integrity.

Edited July 29, 2013 by P.s.Y

[pdxdubin]

Easy fix to your fears bought mods can't be resold DONE!

 

Yeah that would work.

 

I would be fine with that.

 

I still think would spoil and nullify the feeling of earning rare items / mods.

 

Who knows anymore

 

Hopefully DE will gain some wisdom in this thread in which they did not have at the current moment of reading said thread. 

[Aggh]

Don't do it.

 

Buying mods for platinum, and selling them for platinum.

You said you were afraid of exploits, so let me tell you how this will go wrong.

 

1. There will be no incentive to play the game and farm these mods / play new content

 

2. Your not making money off this, players are. 

 

3. The possibility of certain mods being monopolized, and bottle necked into high prices is VERY high.

 

3: Continued - ( Numbers are exaggerated ) 

 

- Depending on how you do this system, some people could end up with 10,000+ Platinum daily.

With what I gathered from your explanation on the live stream.

It is very easy to exploit a marketplace, 

 

Think about someone buying 10k platinum, And they start to buy, hmm maybe the multi shot mods, vitality mods, serration mods, hornet strike mods.  Etc.

It may be possible to continue to purchase all of these mods as they come in, and set their own prices.

Possibly doubling or tripple their own profit, changing the economy of the game on their own. 

meaning that every time someone tries to under cut this person, They can buy the mod themselves, and increase the price by 500-1000% 

 

Its not as hard as it sounds.

 

HOWEVER - If this turns into a micromanaged economy, controlled by DE

Its going to be as stale as the marketplace in runescape for a while,  You might as well just start selling all the mods in the marketplace and take the platinum for yourself.

 

I don't know the specifics, but this is a HORRIBLE idea.

 

It may seem cool to the new players, because I suspect that most of the popular mods will sell for 2-5 platnum each.

But if this market place is user controlled then the possibility of bloating the prices is massive.

MEANING the value of platinum will also go to ******t

if a gifting system is implemented where people don't have to directly buy the gifts, but can use their platinum.

That can and will be exploited by profit farmers. 

 

ALSO - CLAN DOJOS 

 

If one of these people happen to be in a clan, I expect the amount of platinum they can make will be in the range of

100k - 1 million platinum monthly.  

 

Since we can buy resources, the content will be rushed in a day.

A single player can have a 1 person clan and would be able to build everything effortlessly. 

 

Now, I know a lot of you want "Trading"

A market place is not the answer.

I agree with the in match trading, being able to maybe swap mods out at the end of the match.

Maybe similar to the role switch system in league of legends, where we can pick mods and ask people if they want to swap.

At the end of the match.

THAT SOUNDS PERFECT, and would promote team building. 

 

Usually when games come out, With marketplaces.

The market places are built into the game as soon as it comes out.

There are far too many people back from pre U7 with 500+ Rare fusion cores.

 

Its too late for a marketplace, and its not smart to have one.

It will be exploited, and it will ruin the stagnant economy that is already in place.

 

My point.

 

I don't mind a trading system, But I "fear" that adding a marketplace to this game, will absolutely devalue 70% of the content in this game. 

And if it is done in a way to put money in DE's pocket.

Well I will lose a lot of respect then.

Sorry If I came off kinda harsh, and I know we don't know too much about it.

I just want to state some of my fears, so that hopefully this system is pushed away from this direction.

 

I will be here for a while if you want to discuss this, or convince me otherwise, 

 

But I think this is a bad idea. 

 

 

TL;dr: 

 

- Market place will be exploited 

 

- Platinum values will go down ( marketplace items will get more expensive )

 

- Game will become pointless ( you can just go buy the blaze mod for 10 plat )

 

- Game turns into Pay to Win ( Dont BS me, sure you can farm these new mods, but honestly you know you will just buy it )

 

- Dojos will be exploited

 

- People are going to start walking around with 100k+ Platinum

 

I have, and still do exploit the market places in a lot of games,

I don't do it for money and I'm no where near as rich as some of the gold farmers,

 

But I know how these systems work and how easy they are to exploit.

 

This is warframe not a stock market 

 

Keep the game fun, Keep the grind, keep the feeling you get after getting Blaze after 40 hours of farming.

1.) The great majority of players in f2p games do not spend any cash on the game.  They will still grind for mods

2.) Players aren't getting money, they're getting platinum, which only has value in game.

3.) Only within the mod selling system.  Compared to the current system where there are no alternative ways to get mods other than grinding, this seems fine to me.  Like anything else that can be gotten with plat, you can still grind for them.

 

The market place will be purely anonymous with no way to link or advertise specific mods and it's only mods and there will be mastery restrictions on who can buy/sell mods.  I'm sure DE will be monitoring the system for abuse as well.  Most mods can be gotten easily enough that anyone that really feels like trying to abuse the system will prolly just end up wasting time.

[whitejackale]

Don't do it.

 

Buying mods for platinum, and selling them for platinum.

You said you were afraid of exploits, so let me tell you how this will go wrong.

 

1. There will be no incentive to play the game and farm these mods / play new content.

Trading does not stop people from wanting to try out new content. Trading allows people to trade what they do not want for something that they do want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

2. Your not making money off this, players are. 

DE will probably take a cut of every trade. So they will be making money from this.

 

3. The possibility of certain mods being monopolized, and bottle necked into high prices is VERY high.

That is certainly possible, but it is highly improbable. Once people have every single mod in the game, they will have no more interest in the mods that they get. Mods will not be very scarce, and so their price will continue to go down as time goes by.

 

 

Keep the game fun, Keep the grind, keep the feeling you get after getting Blaze after 40 hours of farming.

Most people do not enjoy farming for 40+ hours when they do not know if luck will be on their side. There are people that have farmed mods for much longer than 40 hours without getting anything. A market place will take away that frustration because it will allow them to trade any mods that they have no interest in for the mods that they really want.

[SonicDoragon]

Honestly I only half agree with the topic, not because it's bad or anything I agree with much of it! it's just it should of been done with credits first and then plat second. the marketplace will pretty much be hell for a while, because yes there are people who will snipe the living bejeasus out of all the wanted stuff, but it'll calm down after said while when they can't get a mega butt ton of plat for the stuff they horded from the people who just wanted a little plat for the/a mod they didn't need.

It's just going to be a time sink and test of patience in the end for it to stabilize out. mostly because anyone who will spend the time and money to buy every say split chamber mod will either run out of plat, no one will buy at a ludicrous price, or they'll eventually get over ran by someone who was just better at the market game.

Example: in a game i use to play called "spiral knights" everything is based off of "energy"(that games currency/ playtime limiter) at one point people were making it cost so much in-game currency to buy energy you couldn't play more then one mission run(two if you were lucky) before having to stop for the day cause you weren't making enough in-game money to just keep playing. Then two-four players said nope to the prices and blatantly chopped prices in half. they basically stalled the money grubbing people to the point that the new half point energy cost became standard since others that wanted/ needed ingame money would sell lower then that half point. I've no idea how it is now, but it just proves it's just a time and patience game.

[rksk16it]

When I had my paris prime, I was showing it off man, Bragging to my clan about it.

 

"Haha hey guys LOOK WHAT I GOT"

 

And you know what?  That's fun, and you only get to do that for a little while.

 

Do you realize that there is a group of players, who absolutely HATE grinding in all its forms ?

 

If I get a Paris Prime, like in your example, every time I will see it on my screen, I will fill with disgust of so much time I spent "farming", and if someone says to me "Woooow, You got PARIS PRIME", I will probably respond "yea yea.. just wait till they release a better weapon.. pfft..."

 

Maybe I am in a minority, but I play ONLY for end game content, tomorrow if some warframe like game comes out with All Insta Gear and endless defense ONLY mode, I will switch to it without a second thought.

Edited July 29, 2013 by rksk16it

[pdxdubin]

Do you realize that there is a group of players, who absolutely HATE grinding in all its forms ?

 

If I get a Paris Prime, like in your example, every time I will see it on my screen, I will fill with disgust of so much time I spent "farming", and if someone says to me "Woooow, You got PARIS PRIME", I will probably respond "yea yea.. just wait till they release a better weapon.. pfft..."

 

Maybe I am in a minority, but I play ONLY for end game content, tomorrow if some warframe like game comes out with All Insta Gear and endless defense ONLY mode, I will switch to it without a second thought.

 

That is just 

 

Not what this game is about though...

[rksk16it]

That is just 

 

Not what this game is about though...

 

I see what you mean, and I respect your (and probably majority of players here) opinion. But I will still insist that there must be something done to eliminate a bad luck streak.

 

Eg : If I am looking for a Split Chamber, but keep getting Hell's Chamber like 10 times, there MUST be some way to exchange some of them to get what I actually want. In my case, when I eventually do get Split Chamber (which I have, this is just an example) it will not make me feel good even a little bit, cuz I will be worried about what I need next and how many centuries I'll have to farm.

 

I agree with your stand on marketplace though, it will be sad to see a platinum based stock market inside warframe, but sometimes RNG in this game frustates me to a degree that it blurrs my reasoning...

 

Btw, an idea I saw in other game, Warframe can do like this. Instead of a marketplace, where you can buy/sell items, they have some kind of "randomizer' (I dont know what to call it exactly). It works like this, assuming it works for mods only in this example, you get to place 5-10 rare mods in it, and it will destroy them and randomly create a new rare mod, which is GUARANTEED NOT to be any of the mods consumed in the process. Maybe restrict it to non-ability mods, and also restrict it to a single weapon type mod only. Like place 5 rare rifle mods and you get another rare rifle mod which is not one of those you just used.

 

Same can be done with other things, like resources, blueprints, etc..

Edited July 29, 2013 by rksk16it

[fatpig84]

Even if there is future trading, i expect it into the form of credit sinks.

Not plat, that is just ridiculous.

[Fundance]

That said, sucessfully farming for a saught after item and then selling it off to a high bidder is -incredibly- rewarding and satisfying too. So all this talk about gratification can go both ways. A marketplace system can be very gratifying if done well, because playing merchant is fun.

[whitejackale]

DE should hire an economist the help them create an in game economy that does not fail. They should also hire an economist to help them out with their platinum store. 

[pdxdubin]

DE should hire an economist the help them create an in game economy that does not fail. They should also hire an economist to help them out with their platinum store. 

 

The credits in this game are also worthless, 

 

[taiiat]

 This is a similar place to where I am at. I'll be fine with it if they actually take the leap - I just expect them to buckle down and make that puppy work right once it is here. Moreso then usual.

i think one major flaw, while i agree that doing it could be okay, is that once done, it had better be done right the first time. this literally CANNOT be screwed up.

 

 

 

if people can essentially stock market Warframe, they will, and the game WILL die. it's exactly what happens with the stock market, and don't try to tell me otherwise. people buying stocks, waiting a bit, and selling it for more than they paid. so.... if everyone does that, suddenly everything is inflated to more than it's actual worth, and the longer it goes on, the farther everything comes crashing down when it inevitably deflates. 

 

unfortunately there isn't a quick fix for a marketplace here in a game, if it's not done right and it kills the system and most of the playerbase leaves, the game is dead. 

 

so, the thing to keep in mind, is that if this is done wrong, the game will die before it's even out of Beta. this is really rocky ground, and it needs to be taken very, very slowly. 

do i even need to list some games that have died because of trading? trading is good, and bad. it's important to control both sides of that. 

 

 

it would be a shame to see Warframe die for such a foolish mistake, with all this precedence to show how badly this exact thing can go if it's not taken carefully - since Warframe (IMO) has more potential than the last 40 or 50 games i've seen in the past 5 years. don't throw that away in one move. 

[pdxdubin]

 

if people can essentially stock market Warframe, they will, and the game WILL die. 

 

And I will be one of those people that help the game die

 

Sorry DE but Its so simple taking money from 13 year olds in these video games

 

soooooooooooooo simple..

[Sophronius]

The problem I see with marketable mods is that since the game currently revolves around grind and loot, this would defeat the game's purpose in a way. The game should focus less about loot and more about something else before this is to be implemented. Think about it for a moment, once you finally get the weapons, mods, etc. All that you want, what is there left to do? Absolutely nothing. When players finally get all the items they will likely leave. Most of the time when a player leaves a game, they don't come back.

 

A market system can be good, if done correctly.

 

I am getting rather tired of seeing the constant "if someone doesn't have the time to farm then they don't deserve it." As a person who could easily slap down $100 a week on Warframe and still have enough money to pay the bills (as I work so much) I do not see why this is such a huge problem to everyone. If someone wants to spend cash they earned through slaving away at a real life job then what's the problem? You spent 40+ hours and he got it in 2 seconds? Is that it? Seriously if someone could enlighten me on what the problem is here I would like to know. And being harsh about your answer won't help.

 

I do fear the same problem that OP has stated. I do not want to see the market controlled by people who have exploited it, that can kill a game. Particularly one that emphasizes loot in the first place.

 

I like Warframe. But I am getting tired of it being about items, mods, weapons. Once you have it there's no point in playing. Nothing left to do. Give Warframe additional content, NOT more mods and things. Actual gameplay content. Then introduce a market system. Otherwise it is extremely likely that Warframe could die from the market system. Keeping a game alive doesn't mean to make people grinding endlessly. Eventually you will run out of content and the grinders will leave and go grind on something else. I'd say that the key is to keep the non-grinders interested, and be sure that new players are always coming in.

 

There goes my 2 cents.

[PeterKha]

You make it seem as though everybody would just buy these mods. I mean, the average and smart player would never waste a single dime on any of these mods nor would I sell any one of these mods also. The only mods that will make big money if they do this is a MAXED OUT: Serration, Hornet Strike, Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber etc. The main mods that are hard to max out but imagine the price of a maxed out serration. Nobody is going to sell it for 10 plat nor will they even sell it for 100 plat.

 

I agree with you on how it would ruin the game play of others because I mean, a grandmaster or someone who has money to throw into this game could buy maxed out mods for certain prices with his/her plat and then become strong in about a few hours of game play. Doing this also will start to bring out merchers, who buy low and sell high and it'll turn out to be an economy such as maplestory or something where you begin to sell your items for real life currency.