The universal Vaccuum or not?

[Duckhard]

i was stooping Breed or make Sentinels because those mods not work well for pets an sentinel you can see Loot mod for Carrier is "the Dev's joke for the gamer farming community IMAO. If they put an universal Vacuum mod or option settings i will breed all pets and i will start to think to do missions with my pets, maxing with a lot of Formas their weapons to, but now is Utopia to tell about.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Duckhard

[DarkSkysz]

On 30/11/2017 at 3:41 AM, Vulpei said:

Alright, what would make people choose sentinels over pets if every companion was given a 10m vacuum?  Pets have better survivability, better damage, and better support skills.  The only thing sentinels have over companions right now is the fact that they have a larger vacuum.  This change would literally just flip the tables on the issue everyone pretends exists.  Both have perks and both have downsides, just as it should be. 

Sentinels have sacrifice, med ray and revive. Pets no. You have to babysit them or they will die in a few seconds and wont come back.

Edited December 5, 2017 by DarkSkysz

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

STICK TOGETHER. 

 Why? What's the practical ingame benefit of staying together in missions? Is there a single valid incentive to stay close to your teammates? (except the affinity range, which you don't need to bother with outside Hydron or Akkad)

12 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I don’t know what game your playing but most guides on how to grind long term endless runs require frame synergy and special camping spots. Being that is how most people judge to be the end game the idea that there is some alternative non cooperative cooperative way to play the game is silly as most mission types, once again it’s documented, is gears towards singular objectives or aggros towards players. Outside of search missions nothing else in the game is design to get away from you and majority of the mission types are design to spawn groups of enemies and waves. Now you can point out that it’s not a perfect system, and I would agree with you that yes the spawn rates and spawning mechanics need rework, but adding universal vacuum isn’t going to fix that problem. 

 Except there is no need to grind long term endless runs anymore. No need for frame synergy. No need for camping. And if the killing of endless missions and synergies was undeniably a bad thing, the removal of camping as a valid gameplay choice on its own wasn't that bad. Camping was always frowned upon, even when it was valid. It sucks all life out of the game, turning players into bots with their own specific functions. It's ok, if you like it. But it was never "the right way to play the game". To be fair, it was never "the wrong way to play the game" either. But you can't seriously claim that camping meta is how everyone should play Warframe.

 Don't get me wrong, I love minmaxing. But there's a fine line between making your individual combat unit stronger and turning yourself into a dumb part of a mechanism. And fighing campers definitely wasn't worth taking away endless missions entirely... altho this isn't a UV problem anymore. It has nothing to do with UV. It used to be a mission design flaw, like a lot of things in this game.

12 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

The whole what best companions argument illustrates the real issue I’m talking abutot. Most people never understood the mechanics they are trying to use and DE never bothered to polish it. 

And quite frankly as much good will they may have generated and attracted newer payers with there are starting to be glaring problems that will eventually drive everyone away. I just finished plague Star using those phylaxis and catalyst and because they didn’t figure out how to load the missions or how to handle grouping I lost everything because people disconnected  too early and the mission was marked as a failure. 

You're talking about a completely separate issue and trying to make it into an argument against UV... somehow. That's network problems.

12 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

So so yeah I don’t see the issue as being about universal vacuum needed to be implemented. I see it as both a development issue and a player education issue.

First of all, there's no "player education issue". The only way to communicate gameplay to players is through game mechanics. And game mechachins we have in Warframe don't communicate the kind of gameplay you were talking about. They just don't. Otherwise everyone would have played that way.

12 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

[...]

As I am here playing the game thinking about this the answer seems simple. Instead of trying to make unique pets with unique abilities makes the the pets a template. Therefore all the pets are the same it’s the mods you put which defines how they operate. All the robot pets can use vacuum and all the other precept mods and it’s largely a matter of aesthetics which one you actually use.

Likewise with kubrows and kavats. Kubrows have a certain set of mods that define them and kavats as well  that way you can mix and match how you want pets to behave and instead of the devs trying to mange a disparate number of items for balance and mechanics they only have a to deal with a template and can adjust mods as they see fit to balance them.

Then you can use vacuum on any robot pet or make any kubrow/Kavat you make as effective as you want.  This actually frees the devs as they can strictly focus on cosmetic additions and release way more content in the game without having to figure out how to balance it with existing items. This also mean they can update and modify any stat for pets without having to rework the entire item by strictly focusing on mods and adjusting those stats.

 I understand where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree with you tho. You're talking about reworking half of the game. It would take at least a year to do that, and it won't neccessarily gonna be better. 

 On the other hand, UV solves almost all of the issues you've mentioned and it's incredibly easy to implement, since the basic framework is already in the game (as per devstream 100).

 You're overcomplicating the issue while steering focus of the conversation away from it. Yes, some of the issues you've mentioned are valid, but they have nothing to do with universal vacuum.

Edited December 5, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I was against Vacuum from the start. I used Carrier exclusively for his mastery exp then put him away for sentinels with far superior abilities. I was willing to pick up my own items because it wasn't that big of a deal.

Since the first talk of universal vacuum though, I've watched update after update of new systems to increase the grind. Layers of grinding resources, needed to craft other resources, needed to craft weapons, necessary as components to craft other weapons....New ways to artificially add longevity to the game without actually feeling any more accomplishment for it or sustainability. 

By this point, I've changed my stance. We need inherent, reliable access to universal vacuum, that isn't locked behind sentinels or a tiny radius on our Warframes. With the endless time and effort needed to keep up with the demand for resources we deserve to pick up every single item we've killed for.

[Rosemonde]

If you want to make visible to all this subject like it ! Thank You

Edited December 14, 2017 by Rosemonde

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

On 12/5/2017 at 5:23 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Why? What's the practical ingame benefit of staying together in missions? Is there a single valid incentive to stay close to your teammates? (except the affinity range, which you don't need to bother with outside Hydron or Akkad)

 Except there is no need to grind long term endless runs anymore. No need for frame synergy. No need for camping. And if the killing of endless missions and synergies was undeniably a bad thing, the removal of camping as a valid gameplay choice on its own wasn't that bad. Camping was always frowned upon, even when it was valid. It sucks all life out of the game, turning players into bots with their own specific functions. It's ok, if you like it. But it was never "the right way to play the game". To be fair, it was never "the wrong way to play the game" either. But you can't seriously claim that camping meta is how everyone should play Warframe.

 Don't get me wrong, I love minmaxing. But there's a fine line between making your individual combat unit stronger and turning yourself into a dumb part of a mechanism. And fighing campers definitely wasn't worth taking away endless missions entirely... altho this isn't a UV problem anymore. It has nothing to do with UV. It used to be a mission design flaw, like a lot of things in this game.

You're talking about a completely separate issue and trying to make it into an argument against UV... somehow. That's network problems.

First of all, there's no "player education issue". The only way to communicate gameplay to players is through game mechanics. And game mechachins we have in Warframe don't communicate the kind of gameplay you were talking about. They just don't. Otherwise everyone would have played that way.

 I understand where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree with you tho. You're talking about reworking half of the game. It would take at least a year to do that, and it won't neccessarily gonna be better. 

 On the other hand, UV solves almost all of the issues you've mentioned and it's incredibly easy to implement, since the basic framework is already in the game (as per devstream 100).

 You're overcomplicating the issue while steering focus of the conversation away from it. Yes, some of the issues you've mentioned are valid, but they have nothing to do with universal vacuum.

We can agree to disagree. I was against universal vacuum, and I see the argument against it. but I feel that arguement is essentially, "Universal Vacuum would force us to rework pets, and we don't want to work on that". But being able to pick up things like energy and health as quickly as you can is a necessity so I see the need to create more options to do so.
Solely putting in universal Vacuum would eliminates pets in general; most people don't utilize pets for anything other than a cute accessory, or for vacuum. While I have spent some time working on my pets, I never felt the pets actually gave me a distinct tactical advantage when playing with a Kubrow or Sentinel. Even though I have read and seen videos demonstrating ow powerful Kubrows can be I never had the urge or the need to put that kinda effort into developing them. Kavat seem more powerful, but they are a completely new creature and designed from the ground up differently, and it's obvious that they never thought about how balanced all 3 pets were.

That's why I feel the answer is really designing the pets to truly have unique advantages and disadvantages and give the player more options in their loadouts. Putting in universal vacuum without addressing how pets would work afterwards would result in pets being abandoned largely in the game except as an accessory. 

I do feel the other serious issue lies in what I like to call the "hallway hero", poorly informed player, who absolutely refuses to follow any of the gameplay mechanics and runs around the map killing everything the minute he sees it. This is the main reason people can't pickup items without vacuum. I mean the other day I pug'd with some alliance members and I was trying to farm polymer bundles. So we queue up a survival mission and normally I bring nekros along because I try to work the mechanics to maximize desecrate. But this time around another squad mate decided he was going to play Nekros and I figured "ok, I don't really have to worry about that now." Except I did. The guy playing nekros would literally run so fast back and forth trying to chase down every mob to kill he was literally leaving before desecrate could act on the bodies, not to mention that most of the time we ended up stretched apart killing little pockets of mobs who aggro towards us no where near Nekros's desecrate range. This meant we were no where near maximizing the amount of items we could get. It was so bad that before the 10 minute mark we had to pop life supports because we couldn't generate enough life support pods from mobs. Because our group, and specifically the Nekros, refused to follow the basic rules of the game type and the mobs were spawning so far apart the Nekros was basically worthless. I see this type of playing more often than not. and it's players like that Nekros which has forced people to ask for universal vacuum, since items are so spread out now that if you tried to run around picking up everything you would literally not be playing the game. This happens constantly during missions like Defense, where once again people rush off to the spawn points instead of just allowing the mobs to bunch up and funnel towards the objective and killing them en masse. So at the end of every extraction round I, and from what I see everyone else, have to stop fighting and start running around the edges of the map looking for any drops they might want to pickup. This is not a game design flaw, it's bad player habits. Because when people do use the mechanics to their advantage no one has to run around the board crazy looking for any an every drop.

Let's stick with the example of survival. I just went online looking for articles talking about that mission and like I always stated, there are distinct mechanics which if you used properly would maximize the amount of mobs spawned on on the level and allow you to stay longer and reap more rewards from that mission. And while you are rightly anxious that what I'm talking about are farming exploits and you think I'm advocating some type of boring camping technique, I'm not actually referring to farming exploits.  Survival as a mode is designed around 3 ROOMS where the life support column spawn in. Each room is fairly large and each room is setup in a way to spawn both the life support columns and mobs. None of the guides I read online required anyone to stay in one spot all the time or advocated any AFK system. All the guides literally pointed out tricks to maximize mob spawning while keeping life support columns available in case you need to pop them. And most allow you to run around a fairly large room to kill those mobs, and if you followed the system you would kill way more mobs than you could ever hope for running off on your own. And while I am aware that sometimes the mechanics screw up or players spawn on a bad map, fundamentally there is a way to play a mission like survival if you want to maximize it's benefits. And alot of players don't even know about it.

Just putting universal vacuum without dealing with the real underlying issues, pet balancing, learning game mechanics, and DE actually addressing the issue of spawn points and level design, would not be a solution. What it will lead to is making part of the game vestigial, the pets.

I for one want to see the pets be even more effective and an option that adds flavor and character to the game.  That's why I rather they rework the pets so that each pet has a clearly defined role, and expand those roles so that the pets are useful for multiple situations and scenarios and give distinct advantages to the player which are unique to the type.  I for one feel Sentinels can vacuum and Kubrows can fetch, and Kavat don't do either.

So if you don't want to spend a mod slot on universal vacuum in your frame but you want to pick up as much as you can, then bring a sentinel. If you don't necessarily care how quickly you pick up things and want a little extra advantage in combat, bring a kubrow. If you want to personally pick up everything quickly and want to make sure you can still kill while doing so, or don't want to or care to use a pet, install universal vacuum and use a kavat or nothing, and run around sucking things up yourself.

Edited December 14, 2017 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[AperoBeltaTwo]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

We can agree to disagree.

I hate doing that.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

 I was against universal vacuum, and I see the argument against it. but I feel that arguement is essentially, "Universal Vacuum would force us to rework pets, and we don't want to work on that". But being able to pick up things like energy and health as quickly as you can is a necessity so I see the need to create more options to do so.

UV would only require one pet to be reworked - the one that already doesn't work, the Chesa Kubrow. The rest of the pets won't require any changes. At least not because of UV.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Solely putting in universal Vacuum would eliminates pets in general; most people don't utilize pets for anything other than a cute accessory, or for vacuum. While I have spent some time working on my pets, I never felt the pets actually gave me a distinct tactical advantage when playing with a Kubrow or Sentinel. Even though I have read and seen videos demonstrating ow powerful Kubrows can be I never had the urge or the need to put that kinda effort into developing them. Kavat seem more powerful, but they are a completely new creature and designed from the ground up differently, and it's obvious that they never thought about how balanced all 3 pets were.

Both pets and Sentinels have enough to offer to at least give a reason to equip them. There's no reason not to equip them, with UV they would just add some more functionale. The only effect the lack of UV has at this point, is it makes people much more inclined to use sentinels instead of pets, because otherwise they're pretty equal and sentinel-exclusive vacuum provides an unfair advantage in comparison to animal companions.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

That's why I feel the answer is really designing the pets to truly have unique advantages and disadvantages 

That didn't work the last 7 times. Chesa, Sahasa, Huras, Sunika, Adarza... or was it 8? How many pets do we have in the game? Insert that number.  

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Putting in universal vacuum without addressing how pets would work afterwards would result in pets being abandoned largely in the game except as an accessory. 

How excatly is that going to work? There was a time when Carrier was the only sentinel with a vacuum and 73% of the playerbase only used the Carrier. Back then the rest of the sentinels were used just as rarely as pets are used today. Immedeately after the Vacuum Within update when all sentinels got Vacuum, I started seeing different sentinels in missions. Suddenly, almost all sentinels except of the most squishy ones became perfectly viable and usable. We have a precedent of Vacuum increasing the popularity of forgotten gear. There's no reason to think that with pets its going to be different.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I do feel the other serious issue lies in what I like to call the "hallway hero", poorly informed player, who absolutely refuses to follow any of the gameplay mechanics and runs around the map killing everything the minute he sees it. This is the main reason people can't pickup items without vacuum. I mean the other day I pug'd with some alliance members and I was trying to farm polymer bundles.

 Log into any random que mission, watch any Warframe stream and you'll see the same thing. No offence, but there is this weird elitist misconception floating around in the community that for some reason Warframe missions are supposed to be slow and you should pace yourself. But there isn't a single valid incentive to do so, when enemies literally can't hurt you and pretty much any mission could be completed in 5 minutes top. There's just no reason to play the way you say everyone 'should" play. If anything, you might be the one playing wrong. Again, no offence intended, just think about it.

...oh right, we had this conversation before. Well, you know my standpoint.

 If the game was designed to be played the way you say is "should" be played, we literally wouldn't be able to play in any other way.

That's just how game design works. 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Helaton]

I think universal vacuum should be in.  But different item types have different vacuum distances.

• 5m - Ammo, Energy, Health, Credits
• 3m - Resources, Rare (green) resources, frame parts
• Pick Up - Ayatans (Sculps/Stars)

For combat, (ammo/energy/health) it doesn't interfere with the game much - which is what I would like. Universal vacuum for combat goods and credits.

For resources however, you have to move closer. If you want an all powerful vacuum, then equip a sentinel, everything above is 11.5m with a vacuum mod.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

13 minutes ago, Helaton said:

I think universal vacuum should be in.  But different item types have different vacuum distances.

• 5m - Ammo, Energy, Health, Credits
• 3m - Resources, Rare (green) resources, frame parts
• Pick Up - Ayatans (Sculps/Stars)

For combat, (ammo/energy/health) it doesn't interfere with the game much - which is what I would like. Universal vacuum for combat goods and credits.

For resources however, you have to move closer. If you want an all powerful vacuum, then equip a sentinel, everything above is 11.5m with a vacuum mod.

 5m, 3m vacuum? Why? What's the point of having a vacuum like that when for years we had a 12m vacuum for everything? This just doesn't make any sense to me. The whole idea of UV is to have a full range proper vacuum but to be able to use it with all companions. Otherwise it's just not gonna work and people would keep using exclusively sentinels.

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

24 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Both pets and Sentinels have enough to offer to at least give a reason to equip them. There's no reason not to equip them, with UV they would just add some more functionale. The only effect the lack of UV has at this point, is it makes people much more inclined to use sentinels instead of pets, because otherwise they're pretty equal and sentinel-exclusive vacuum provides an unfair advantage in comparison to animal companions.

I don't agree with that. If that was the case you would see more variety of pets being used and pets would be included in every guide to maximize your frame. As it stands you can play the game without pets and with the exception of Vacuum not see a single real difference. I used Carrier exclusively even after getting my first kubrow and I have  kavat and still don't really take it out. Most of the pet's abilities, with the exception of a few, have very little impact on how you play.

That didn't work the last 7 times. Chesa, Sahasa, Huras, Sunika, Adarza... or was it 8? How many pets do we have in the game? Insert that number.  

That's why I propose scrapping that whole design in favor of something more simple and easier to handle. Instead of trying to make individual pets which unique abilities you have to balance, each pet type has a range of actions and abilities and you can pick and chose and modify based upon how you like them to help you out. So outside of vacuuming items you have real differences between Sentinels, Kubrows and kavat which add more to your gameplay. Allowing things like sentinels being able to auto hack, or kubrows being able to guide you to hidden items on that map; will give incentive for people to use them outside of, "can it kill things or do I need vacuum?", types of arguments which seems to have relegated pets to a non part of the game.

How excatly is that going to work? There was a time when Carrier was the only sentinel with a vacuum and 73% of the playerbase only used the Carrier. Back then the rest of the sentinels were used just as rarely as pets are used today. Immedeately after the Vacuum Within update when all sentinels got Vacuum, I started seeing different sentinels in missions. Suddenly, almost all sentinels except of the most squishy ones became perfectly viable and usable. We have a precedent of Vacuum increasing the popularity of forgotten gear. There's no reason to think that with pets its going to be different.

Look up above, under my idea it would be any sentinel or kubrow or kavat(future ones hopefully) can be used for a distinct advantage, it's no longer tied to the specific type but how you mod and configure the pet to work for you. We are actually talking about the same thing, as once they normalize vacuum behavior across sentinels people felt the need to take more types out.

 Log into any random que mission, watch any Warframe stream and you'll see the same thing. No offence, but there is this weird elitist misconception floating around in the community that for some reason Warframe missions are supposed to be slow and you should pace yourself. But there isn't a single valid incentive to do so, when enemies literally can't hurt you and pretty much any mission could be completed in 5 minutes top. There's just no reason to play the way you say everyone 'should" play. If anything, you might be the one playing wrong. Again, no offence intended, just think about it.

...oh right, we had this conversation before. Well, you know my standpoint.

And you are reading more into what I'm saying and ignoring my conclusion. Because too many people think of technique or stategy in this game as only revolving around farming exploits and AFK tricks. I have played plenty of defense and survival missions where we used the missions mechanics to our advantage, got to kill ludicrous amount of mobs, and weren't imprisoned in a tiny room or force to be rooted in place. The game does have a balance which rewards cooperation and working together. It's the heart of the game, COOPERATIVE PLAYING. And you are confusing DE's lack of improving this aspect of the game core design as some sort of tacit or implied suggestion that running off solo while in a group is ok and kinda allowed. Which is the core of where this universal vacuum argument is coming from.

For example, you fail to realize that I stated specifically that in survival the rooms where life support columns spawn is tend to be large rooms, so if you just stuck to the basic survival mechanics you and the rest of your squad could run around a fair to large size room and have waves of enemies come at you in increasing amounts and rack up ridiculous kill numbers, but more importantly, have them all die close enough that a player without vacuum can run around and efficiently pick up anything they want without having to break from combat. It is possible, I have seen it happen, and it's not elitist to say that is how the game should be played.

 If the game was designed to be played the way you say is "should" be played, we literally wouldn't be able to play in any other way.

That's just how game design works. 

And yet here we are talking about how because people don't try to take advantage of a games mechanics, they want to add an option to the game which would break a fundamental aspect of it, that it's a COOPERATIVE 3RD Person Shooter.

 

 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

28 minutes ago, Helaton said:

I think universal vacuum should be in.  But different item types have different vacuum distances.

• 5m - Ammo, Energy, Health, Credits
• 3m - Resources, Rare (green) resources, frame parts
• Pick Up - Ayatans (Sculps/Stars)

For combat, (ammo/energy/health) it doesn't interfere with the game much - which is what I would like. Universal vacuum for combat goods and credits.

For resources however, you have to move closer. If you want an all powerful vacuum, then equip a sentinel, everything above is 11.5m with a vacuum mod.

I was thinking something along the line of this. Except without item specific ranges. My idea would be to allow a warframe vacuum to pickup at a max 15m area. Heath, energy and ammo can be all picked up immediately and collected. All the other drops: resources, mods, credits, and special items have a limit of how many items can be picked up per second; say max rank 4 special items a second and make the mod have a high point cost. So that way you have a effective 15m vacuum for energy/health/ammo, but if you want to pick up everything you have to loiter a bit. Then change Sentinel Vacuum to allow it to pick up those special items automatically and make the sentinels have the highest pickup and radar ranges in the game. Then put in a Kubrow Fetch behavior but make it inverse to sentinels and the warframe, all special items are picked up automatically, but he has to fetch you health/energy/ammo. And make Kavats strictly combat oriented.

I feel this is the best compromise. I creates distinct roles that your pet can fill in, but give everyone an option either with or without pets and still pickup items effectively.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

56 minutes ago, Helaton said:

I think universal vacuum should be in.  But different item types have different vacuum distances.

• 5m - Ammo, Energy, Health, Credits
• 3m - Resources, Rare (green) resources, frame parts
• Pick Up - Ayatans (Sculps/Stars)

For combat, (ammo/energy/health) it doesn't interfere with the game much - which is what I would like. Universal vacuum for combat goods and credits.

For resources however, you have to move closer. If you want an all powerful vacuum, then equip a sentinel, everything above is 11.5m with a vacuum mod.

1 minute ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I was thinking something along the line of this. Except without item specific ranges. My idea would be to allow a warframe vacuum to pickup at a max 15m area. Heath, energy and ammo can be all picked up immediately and collected. All the other drops: resources, mods, credits, and special items have a limit of how many items can be picked up per second; say max rank 4 special items a second and make the mod have a high point cost. So that way you have a effective 15m vacuum for energy/health/ammo, but if you want to pick up everything you have to loiter a bit. Then change Sentinel Vacuum to allow it to pick up those special items automatically and make the sentinels have the highest pickup and radar ranges in the game. Then put in a Kubrow Fetch behavior but make it inverse to sentinels and the warframe, all special items are picked up automatically, but he has to fetch you health/energy/ammo. And make Kavats strictly combat oriented.

I feel this is the best compromise. I creates distinct roles that your pet can fill in, but give everyone an option either with or without pets and still pickup items effectively.

Guys, ffs! Why come up with some crazy backwards solutions to a straightforward problem, that could be otherwise solved in a single patch by changing one variable in the code?? Simple passive UV is so much easier to implement to a much more predictable and useful effect!

 

 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I don't agree with that. If that was the case you would see more variety of pets being used and pets would be included in every guide to maximize your frame. As it stands you can play the game without pets and with the exception of Vacuum not see a single real difference. I used Carrier exclusively even after getting my first kubrow and I have  kavat and still don't really take it out. Most of the pet's abilities, with the exception of a few, have very little impact on how you play.

Honestly, the single companion ability that has any serious impact on how you play is Vacuum. My thinking is simple: as long as players keep the vacuum, they'll be able to take whatever the random companion they want into the missions without losing QoL. So it would naturally stimulate variety, by removing the primary incentive to play sentinels over the pets. 

24 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

That's why I propose scrapping that whole design in favor of something more simple and easier to handle. Instead of trying to make individual pets which unique abilities you have to balance, each pet type has a range of actions and abilities and you can pick and chose and modify based upon how you like them to help you out. So outside of vacuuming items you have real differences between Sentinels, Kubrows and kavat which add more to your gameplay. Allowing things like sentinels being able to auto hack, or kubrows being able to guide you to hidden items on that map; will give incentive for people to use them outside of, "can it kill things or do I need vacuum?", types of arguments which seems to have relegated pets to a non part of the game.

Look up above, under my idea it would be any sentinel or kubrow or kavat(future ones hopefully) can be used for a distinct advantage, it's no longer tied to the specific type but how you mod and configure the pet to work for you. We are actually talking about the same thing, as once they normalize vacuum behavior across sentinels people felt the need to take more types out.

No "scrapping" stuff, please. Let's keep the conversation realistic and on point. 

 I might wanna introduce spacedragons into the game with cosmic-level superpowers, but we both know it's not gonna happen. Same with companions - we gotta stick to what we have in the game and be realistic about what could be done immedeately, otherwise it's just empty talking (even tho it's empty talking anyway, since DE won't actually read any of this, but let's just keep it real for the sake of our own sanity, ok?)

 I mean, the idea is neat. But it's a lot of sledgehammer work. Just increasing the range of innate vacuum is much easier and would actually solve the problem we're talking about.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

And you are reading more into what I'm saying and ignoring my conclusion. Because too many people think of technique or stategy in this game as only revolving around farming exploits and AFK tricks. I have played plenty of defense and survival missions where we used the missions mechanics to our advantage, got to kill ludicrous amount of mobs, and weren't imprisoned in a tiny room or force to be rooted in place. The game does have a balance which rewards cooperation and working together. It's the heart of the game, COOPERATIVE PLAYING. And you are confusing DE's lack of improving this aspect of the game core design as some sort of tacit or implied suggestion that running off solo while in a group is ok and kinda allowed. Which is the core of where this universal vacuum argument is coming from.

You're missing one very important point: Humanity won't change to fit your idea of 'proper' gameplay.

 People are playing the way they are allowed to, exploring the system and naturally looking for most effective and profitable ways to utilize it. This is what humans do by nature. And if gameplay really was designed so that your way of playing the game was the most practical and profitable, as you claim it to be, people would do it all the time. But they don't. Not because they're all wrong or stupid, but because the way you think everyone "should" play simply isn't incentivized by the existing gameplay mechanics. There's absolutely no valid reason to play "cooperatively" in the current Warframe build (unless we're talking about raids, but those are actually designed for coop... despite all the other problems raids have).

46 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

And yet here we are talking about how because people don't try to take advantage of a games mechanics, they want to add an option to the game which would break a fundamental aspect of it, that it's a COOPERATIVE 3RD Person Shooter.

 Core Warframe missions barely have enough gameplay to keep half-a-brain of a single player awake. You seriously think people need to play cooperatively in missions like capture or exterminate, or spy, or... 'insert any other regular mission'. There is no need for cooperative gameplay in the current Warframe build. Everything except raids could be solo'ed by a half-sleeping bot.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Honestly, the single companion ability that has any serious impact on how you play is Vacuum. My thinking is simple: as long as players keep the vacuum, they'll be able to take whatever the random companion they want into the missions without losing QoL. So it would naturally stimulate variety, by removing the primary incentive to play sentinels over the pets. 

No "scrapping" stuff, please. Let's keep the conversation realistic and on point. 

 I might wanna introduce spacedragons into the game with cosmic-level superpowers, but we both know it's not gonna happen. Same with companions - we gotta stick to what we have in the game and be realistic about what could be done immedeately, otherwise it's just empty talking (even tho it's empty talking anyway, since DE won't actually read any of this, but let's just keep it real for the sake of our own sanity, ok?)

 I mean, the idea is neat. But it's a lot of sledgehammer work. Just increasing the range of innate vacuum is much easier and would actually solve the problem we're talking about.

You're missing one very important point: Humanity won't change to fit your idea of 'proper' gameplay.

 People are playing the way they are allowed to, exploring the system and naturally looking for most effective and profitable ways to utilize it. This is what humans do by nature. And if gameplay really was designed so that your way of playing the game was the most practical and profitable, as you claim it to be, people would do it all the time. But they don't. Not because they're all wrong or stupid, but because the way you think everyone "should" play simply isn't incentivized by the existing gameplay mechanics. There's absolutely no valid reason to play "cooperatively" in the current Warframe build (unless we're talking about raids, but those are actually designed for coop... despite all the other problems raids have).

 Core Warframe missions barely have enough gameplay to keep half-a-brain of a single player awake. You seriously think people need to play cooperatively in missions like capture or exterminate, or spy, or... 'insert any other regular mission'. There is no need for cooperative gameplay in the current Warframe build. Everything except raids could be solo'ed by a half-sleeping bot.

But basically what you are proposing is, dumb down the game and give a pass on the lack of development in this aspect of the gameplay? And that people never change so why try and encourage or guide people in any way?

Adding this "Passive" little line of code power would be a bigger sledghammer than what I am proposing. Sentinels and kubrows do represent a time sink in the game that DE wants you to invest in. So by removing Vaccuum as a mechanic and making it passive universal ability it would undermine sentinels, would remove greedy pull mags, and yeah maybe more people will take out different pets for lolz, but you've now allowed gameplay mechanics that creates a scenario where people can actually do more AFK and Farming exploits cause now they don't have to worry if their sentinel dies on their hours long runs. Or basically start solo farming easier, cause now you don't even need a sentinel, or find the mods, or develop it, or once again account for it's survivability, you can just go straight to farming mats.

I want to see real improvement on level design, spawn mechanics, and enemy AI to make every mission dynamic, tactical, and challenging.  I want more variety, more options on how I want to play, so I rather see them rework the pets for them to be a real compliment and accessory to your gameplay style and add real flavor on how the mission goes.

Adding a universal inherent vacuum addresses none of that. And what will happen is every match will eventually be 4 players fighting independently on different parts of the map and rarely even seeing each other, let alone work together, and not just in PUGs. I don't see that as an improvement. And I will reiterate that this game is classified as cooperative multiplayer, and that is the intent of the devs.

And I have been converted and believe Warframes should have a vacuum, but it needs to be balanced and there needs to be clear advantages and disadvantages for using a sentinel, kubrow or kavat, or a warframe vacuum which has real impact on how you play the game. That motivates people to go out and collect those pets because they want to play a specific way.

My thought is adding a inherent universal vacuum would break the game even further and lead to more toxic gameplay. If you want a vacuum on your warframe, it needs to be a mod like any other ability(you probably don't know but originally even the Warframe powers were mods you needed to install and had to juggle mod space with) for balance sake. Then at least having to make the choice to sacrifice a mod slot for vacuum or bring a pet adds some strategic or tactical consideration.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

But basically what you are proposing is, dumb down the game and give a pass on the lack of development in this aspect of the gameplay? And that people never change so why try and encourage or guide people in any way?

 It can't go dumber than sentinel-exclusive Vacuum. My proposition is to remove an issue that was hindering companion diversity for years. Simplifying this issue is the best thing that could possibly be done at this point. Not everything has to be overcomplicated and overdesigned.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Adding this "Passive" little line of code power would be a bigger sledghammer than what I am proposing. Sentinels and kubrows do represent a time sink in the game that DE wants you to invest in. So by removing Vaccuum as a mechanic and making it passive universal ability it would undermine sentinels, would remove greedy pull mags, and yeah maybe more people will take out different pets for lolz, but you've now allowed gameplay mechanics that creates a scenario where people can actually do more AFK and Farming exploits cause now they don't have to worry if their sentinel dies on their hours long runs. Or basically start solo farming easier, cause now you don't even need a sentinel, or find the mods, or develop it, or once again account for it's survivability, you can just go straight to farming mats.

People won't stop using companions with UV, ffs. What even makes you think that? If there's a companion slot in the Arsenal, it will be filled - it's simple as that. In regards to vacuum itself, people had been using vacuum for, what, three years now? Vacuum had been a part of the game for so long that no new bugs or exploits could be introduced by this point. UV would literally just treat all companions equally. That's it.

 Don't othercomplicate the issue and don't try to read DE's mind, please. It's impossible. Today they want one thing, tomorrow they go on trying to remake the whole game from ground up. Don't try to guess what their intentions are. I'm not sure if they even want money at this point. Just keep it to the issue at hand.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I want to see real improvement on level design, spawn mechanics, and enemy AI to make every mission dynamic, tactical, and challenging.  I want more variety, more options on how I want to play, so I rather see them rework the pets for them to be a real compliment and accessory to your gameplay style and add real flavor on how the mission goes.

And I want a Spacedragon.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Adding a universal inherent vacuum addresses none of that. And what will happen is every match will eventually be 4 players fighting independently on different parts of the map and rarely even seeing each other, let alone work together, and not just in PUGs. I don't see that as an improvement. And I will reiterate that this game is classified as cooperative multiplayer, and that is the intent of the devs.

Instead of giving us a Spacedragon, UV would adress the real issue at hand - the issue of underused animal companions. Stay focused on the topic, please. Your position is basically: "Let's not throw out this pile of trash over there because fixing Humanity is more important." I don't want to fix humanity, I just want to fix this one vacuum thing in a video game.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

And I have been converted and believe Warframes should have a vacuum, but it needs to be balanced and there needs to be clear advantages and disadvantages for using a sentinel, kubrow or kavat, or a warframe vacuum which has real impact on how you play the game. That motivates people to go out and collect those pets because they want to play a specific way.

What "clear advantages and disadvantages" are you even on about? You want to redesign the entire system without a single guarantee that it would be better that way, instead of solving one problem directly. You're overthinking a very straightforward issue.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

My thought is adding a inherent universal vacuum would break the game even further and lead to more toxic gameplay. If you want a vacuum on your warframe, it needs to be a mod like any other ability(you probably don't know but originally even the Warframe powers were mods you needed to install and had to juggle mod space with) for balance sake. Then at least having to make the choice to sacrifice a mod slot for vacuum or bring a pet adds some strategic or tactical consideration.

Almost nobody plays that way these days. Even back in the day I would refuse to camp because it's the definition of brain-dead and toxic. It's just boring and unnecessary - especially in the current low-lvl build where endless missions were killed off completely. I don't know who taught you that it's the "right way" to play Warframe, but, really, it isn't.

 

 Also, removing skill mods is a primary example of "dumbing down" a gameplay mechanic for the better. Mandatory mods s&ck in general. And getting rid of vacuum as a mod would only be a good thing. Not everything has to be cumbersome and overcomplicated.

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

And I want a Spacedragon

I'm kinda amused by this statement as what I am proposing would actually allow for such a thing to be possible.  By equalizing all pets by type and creating a set of behaviors you can mix and match, you could totally design the Wyrm to be a Medium to Long Range nuker with a set of attacks, and if you wanted to built it without vacuum and move that power onto yourself, this system gives you the framework to do so. What  am proposing opens up pets to fill a whole bunch of roles; some of which aren't even in the game, and moves the argument away from; is the only thing good about pets it's DPS or vacuum?

You want a space dragon. I want a sentinel that opens all red chests and automatically breaks open chests within line of sight and suck them in; and the ability to autohack consoles. I want a Kubrow that can lead me to special items like Grineer caches, Synthesis Targets, Syndicate Marks, and special rooms.  With all due respect you have small dreams. Dream bigger and see the possibilities is all I'm saying. And I've been playing games long enough to know that with trying to make game mechanics you have to put balance and restrictions or the game becomes too boring and people lose interest. So by saying, whats the big deal just let me collect things however I want without restriction, you are ignoring the unintended consequences that decision leads to.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

With all due respect you have small dreams.

You don't hear me. Here, quotes from another topic:

14 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Let's not "dream" at all? Let's talk about what is possible with the current game build. Please. Seriously.

Edit: I mean, it's ok to dream. But you gotta be able to connect the dots with reality... somehow. I just realized, I don't know how to do it myself, but anyway. Let's at least try to be real here.

13 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I don't think longterm right now. I focus on immediate solutions that could be implemented as soon as possible without having to sledgehammer half of the game down.

 Longterm ideas I had involve a complete focus/operator rework from the ground up (because current focus is complete rubbish); "Solar War" invasions system; Endless Raids; Arcane armor sets with actual stats; mastery rank-based stat system for weapons ... etc. etc. Nothing of this is going to happen, so I talk about stuff that is more or less reasonable and possible.

 

[(PSN)fullblast35]

On 11/28/2017 at 12:39 PM, xXDeadsinxX said:

Non of the above in the poll. It should legitimately be Universal Vacuum in the settings that can be disabled and enabled, simple as that. Everyone’s happy.

thank you.

[Rosemonde]

Le 30/11/2017 à 08:06, shootaman777 a dit :

Le 30/11/2017 à 06:41, Vulpei a dit :

Alright, what would make people choose sentinels over pets if every companion was given a 10m vacuum?  Pets have better survivability, better damage, and better support skills.  The only thing sentinels have over companions right now is the fact that they have a larger vacuum.  This change would literally just flip the tables on the issue everyone pretends exists.  Both have perks and both have downsides, just as it should be. 

The problem with what you're saying, is that several companions have copied abilities from Sentinels. 

For example, the Huras Kubrow has Shade's Ghost ability, the Raksa Kubrow has Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, and the Chesa Kubrow has (formerly) Carrier's Vacuum. 

 

This brings to light a bigger issue - uniqueness amongst companions/Sentinels. 

The unique companions/Sentinels are: Carrier/Carrier Prime, Dethcube, Diriga/Wyrm/Wyrm Prime/Raksa Kubrow, Djinn, Helios/Helios Prime, Shade/Prisma Shade/Huras Kubrow, Taxon, Chesa Kubrow, Sahasa Kubrow/Sunika Kubrow, Helminth Charger, Adarza Kavat, Smeeta Kavat. 

Counting only the best in each category and the categories that actually have a general purpose, the unique and useful companions/Sentinels are: Carrier Prime, Helios Prime, Prisma Shade, Adarza Kavat, Smeeta Kavat.  That isn't a lot of options. 

 

Going back to addressing what you mentioned: ultimately, yes, the companions mostly have better stats than Sentinels. 

However, the companions' mediocre pathing, larger hitboxes, and limitation to solely melee combat, are their main combat disadvantages when compared to Sentinels. 

 

Even though companions have the advantage of better stats, the 3 previously mentioned things make them down far more often than a properly modded Sentinel dies. 

Even will lifesteal-link, the tankiest Kubrow can still be easily mowed down rapidly by an enemy, since the Kubrow will always have to close the distance and then proceed to attack an enemy, all while under enemy fire.  This is in comparison to Sentinels, which have a bullet sponging aggro machine with a larger hitbox directly underneath them at all times, in the form of a Warframe. 

 

This is why people who bring companions to sorties are laughed at, and their decision to do so, frowned upon and ridiculed.  Because all their companions are good for, is dying.  Companions lack the mobility and support of a Warframe to keep them out of the line of fire, so the companion in question just downs, again and again.  It's irrelevant that companions can be revived, because they force their owner to keep reviving them to get any use out of them, becoming more of a liability than an asset. 

 

Kubrows, specifically (and regrettably), are in a sorry state of affairs.  The best Kubrows (Huras) do the same things in a comparable capacity to many of the basic sentinels, without Vacuum, with the liability of having to be revived.  The mediocre (Chesa, Raksa) and worst (Sunika, Sahasa, Helminth Charger) Kubrows are inferior to sentinels in every way. 

 

Kavats are in a slightly better place.  They have unique abilities that can be useful in any mission, just without Vacuum, with the liability of having to be revived. 

 

On top of all of this, Sentinels aren't limited in terms of weaponry.  Any Sentinel's weapon (save for Helios'/Helios Prime's Deconstructor/Deconstructor Prime) can be used on another Sentinel.  Different Sentinels weapons can be selected on any Sentinel to better fit the mission in question, as opposed to the melee-only approach of companions. 

 

 

Additionally, not only do companions not have Vacuum and constantly demand reviving, they also have a credit upkeep in DNA stabilizers (100,000 credits buying 6 DNA stabilizers).  On top of that, they have a recovery time after coming out of stasis, forcing a player to pay a fee to be able to use their companion when they want to.  And on top of that, companions require an upgrade segment to reduce the cost of rushing the recovery time, which reduces the cost to 10,000 credits apiece. 

And this is the answer to the question you asked before; the bigger picture.  Kubrows and Kavats are both inferior to Sentinels due to lacking Vacuum, being far more prone to downing, AND having a credit upkeep cost and inconvenience premium. 

Give UniVac to Kubrows and Kavats, and there will still be a hard choice to make: whether or not to pay the upkeep and upgrade costs on companions, or to not have to go through the hassle and use Sentinels.  And, on top of that, Kavats and Kubrows will still be going down often in missions, more so than Sentinels will be dying. 

In other words, UniVac is only the first step to making companions viable.  As-is, Kavats are fine, but require UniVac to be used more often.  Kubrows, on the other hand, require an entire set of reworks. 

 

The only way that companions will see more usage, is if they acquire UniVac, and then are buffed to be SUPERIOR to Sentinels, to make it worth the melee-only, constant reviving, and credit costs of maintaining said companions. 

In other words, it'd have to become a 'you get what you pay for'-type scenario.  Otherwise, why would anyone pay the credit prices for Kavats (not even asking about the

 

inferior Kubrows)? 

 

Le 28/11/2017 à 18:39, xXDeadsinxX a dit :

Non of the above in the poll. It should legitimately be Universal Vacuum in the settings that can be disabled and enabled, simple as that. Everyone’s happy.

 

Le 29/11/2017 à 19:31, AperoBeltaTwo a dit :

Le 29/11/2017 à 18:09, Sentinel-14 a dit :

I run a sentinel with vacuum, personally. I dont have a problem with the vacuum issue on pets because I dont run pets; their health degradation mechanic annoys me, but that's another topic. Point is, I dont run one so I dont have a vested interest in the Universal Vacuum argument. But I have been wondering something while following this debate.

I'm not advocating this, it's just a thought I had while taking the argument to it's logical conclusion:

For the people pushing for Universal Vacuum, (meaning a setting, not a mod on Sentinels or pets) why not push for loot to go straight into your inventory instead? No need to walk over it at all, it just appears in your inventory as soon as it drops. It's the next logical step, right? This maybe doesn't happen much to others, but I've missed argon, ayatan crystals, even mods on occasion because I couldn't get to them before the extract timer ran out. Losing loot I wasn't anywhere close to picking up is kind of a bummer, but happens when teams spread out in a map (especially when dolts like me get turned around and can't find the exit). I dont make a big deal of it, but if we're having the discussion about a universal vacuum, why not take the extra step and just push for immediate drop-to-inventory?
 

I hope your question is geniune, cause I intend to spend some time answering it.

 First of all, there is absolutely no practical reason not to have instant on-kill looting in Warframe except that it cuts on the stockpiles. I never heard a single argument and conversed to a single person who would be able to dismiss your question on any logical ground. It's just impossible.

BUT

There are three notions I could use to explain why instant loot is a bad idea in my personal opinion. One of the notions would be purely subjective, the other is a bit less subjective, and the third one is rooted in the gameplay build we have right now in Warframe:

1) Instant pickups just wouldn't feel right. Like something is missing. Like there could have been a looting mechanic in the game, but for some reason nobody bothered to design it. Like an empty space where there was supposed to be something, but everyone forgot what exactly it was. It's purely subjective on this level, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand what I mean by that.

2) When properly designed, looting is satisfying. It's one of those mechanics that create the "feeling of gameplay". Like gunplay, sound design and movement system. You probably got used to it by now, but when I just got my first Carrier it felt really nice to jump over a pile of resources and collect everything in one go - with the clicking sound and vacuuming animation. It's geniunely satisfying and for a lot of people is a huge part of the gameplay whether they notice it or not. That's why I acknowledge that some people might not like Vacuum for the same reason I enjoy it (even though I have yet to meet anyone who would actually come up with this point). The only problem being, that manual looting simply isn't designed all that well in this game, becoming even worse after the pickups' remodelling. 
 Honestly speaking, I advocate for Universal Vacuum only because our manual looting mechanic is so clunky that it constantly pulls you out of the expierience, and in the circumstances the lack of vacuum also harms animal companions tremendously. If manual looting was designed differently and fitted the movement system better, and if Vacuum never existed in the first place, I wouldn't be asking for UV at all. 

3) A lot of work went into designing the looting system. Instant looting would mean scrapping it all. From designing the pickups themselves to the crates and items\mods that specialize on looting, it would just be a huge waste of time and resources to rework everything looting-related in Warframe after four years in open beta. Instant looting would be an enormous undertaking that wouldn't really add anything. Basically, we happened to arrive at this point where looting system functions the way it functions and not everything about it is necessarily bad. So it would be more effective to build upon the existing system, than taking a sledgehammer to it. That's why I'm advocating for UV so much. 

 Passive togglable warframe-based Universal Vacuum, simply, is a middle ground that doesn't require scrapping all the work done on the looting system previously, while optimizing players' interactions with looting mechanics, preserving the stimulating feedback looting provides and allowing for a more focused combat-oriented gameplay. Oh, and freeing players' companion choice on top of that.

Le 28/11/2017 à 21:30, AperoBeltaTwo a dit :

Le 28/11/2017 à 21:07, Thexceedel a dit :

i guess universal vacuum takes away from the looter aspect of the game. Tbh if DE wants to make universal vacuum  they should start with fixing pets first <,<

Looter aspect of the game doesn't exist, when most of the playerbase simply run sentinels 24\7. Universal vacuum would only affect animal companions. Otherwise it wouldn't change anything much.

 UV version I personally would like to see is a passive element of looting mechanic (simply 12m range of standart item pickups) that you could reduce to standart 3 meters via an option in the menu. It would allow for more companion diversity and would remove a mandatory mod from the game (which is always a good thing). 

 Also, UV is the easiest first step to fixing pets. They could literally do it tomorrow. It's just changing one value in the code and adding a switch to the menu. That's it. Basic framework for it "was shipped with Plains of Eidolon" update.

 

Le 29/11/2017 à 18:37, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 a dit :

Companions and sentinels need to be completely reworked in general, but specifically the item pickup issue does impact the playability of companions. I agree WF isn’t designed for manual pickups and the gameplay would be radically different if you didn’t have a vacuum option.

A practical solution would be to make robot companions vacuum based and kubrows/Kavat a fetch and retrieved based collection tool. This give you a distinct difference but allows companions to serve the basic utility they are needed to perform. One of the things this would allow is completely separate behavior for collecting items. For example I would make all sentinels vacuum, unlock red doors and auto hack a console when in alert. Sentinels should have bonuses for things like enemy radar and loot detectors mods. 

Animal companions would have a different mechanics. They can fetch and retrieve items for you(if you ever watch feral kubrows you see they perform this behavior already) and would be focused on finding items like the scavenger mod which allows kubrows to dig up the ground and find random items. I would also make the animals have tracking behaviors, so they could be used to identify things like grineer caches, syndicate marks and synthesis targets.

But this just highlights the biggest issue with companions. They are hopelessly out of date mechanic wise. I don’t know if most people don’t realize but companions still use the ORIGINAL mod system prior to the update which saw powers mods removed and built into the Warframe.  That’s why all the kubrows/sentinels behaviors are mod cards. So up to 4 mod slots are wasted just giving the companion abilities.

Result:

Edited December 15, 2017 by Rosemonde

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

5 hours ago, Rosemonde said:

 

 

 

Result:

Yeah this is why the devs don't even want to talk about this. In the end most players are asking for a feature without regard to the consequence. I do see the need to expand and allow more pickup options in the game. But just granting a universal inherent vacuum of anything more than a few meters would break so many other parts of the game. Parts that I think most players are not even aware of. I do believe that if this was added to the game, newer players would be even less incentivized to play cooperatively and we would get even more toxic gameplay than some of the things I already see in PUGs. As it stand by allowing vacuum to be used by all sentinels DE already gave everyone a option that at least allows you to use different sentinels while you play. Putting in a universal inherent vacuum would make sentinels useless. I would rather they rework all the pets, give them distinct abilities outside of just vacuum and pickup abilities, and create framework by which the pet becomes another extension of your play-style than just a cute accessory that sucks up drops or is just there for looks if they did add universal vacuum.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Yeah this is why the devs don't even want to talk about this. In the end most players are asking for a feature without regard to the consequence. I do see the need to expand and allow more pickup options in the game. But just granting a universal inherent vacuum of anything more than a few meters would break so many other parts of the game. Parts that I think most players are not even aware of. I do believe that if this was added to the game, newer players would be even less incentivized to play cooperatively and we would get even more toxic gameplay than some of the things I already see in PUGs. As it stand by allowing vacuum to be used by all sentinels DE already gave everyone a option that at least allows you to use different sentinels while you play. Putting in a universal inherent vacuum would make sentinels useless. I would rather they rework all the pets, give them distinct abilities outside of just vacuum and pickup abilities, and create framework by which the pet becomes another extension of your play-style than just a cute accessory that sucks up drops or is just there for looks if they did add universal vacuum.

 Whatever "parts" of the gameplay Vacuum could have broken had already been broken at this point. Never to come back. Dude, no offence, but you just keep saying "Universal vacuum will break the game in ways we couldn't possibly anticipate!" This isn't a valid argument. The lack of teamplay in Warframe, as I said before, is an issue that stems on the lack of a gameplay incentive to play in a team. It has nothing to do with loot pickup mechanics. Especially when normal Vacuum is readily available for all players anyway - so the choice of using Vacuum or not doesn't influence teamplay in the slightest.

 You keep saying that they should rework all the pets etc. Leaving aside the fact that it can't be done in any reasonable time frame without taking all the existing pets away from the players. What do you think that would even achieve? It won't solve the looting problem and won't necesseraly make animal companions more popular!

 I get it, you want customizable companions. And it's a cool idea. But right now, today it's unrealistic.

 On the other hand, Universal Vacuum could be done in a single patch and incredbibly easily.

Edited December 15, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Drusus]

On 11/29/2017 at 12:08 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

This is a Dev team that spent months concocting a second, forced combat system that is strictly subpar to the one already on offer in every way possible.

Never say never.

I can't glean from your description there if you mean Operator, Archwing or Conclave systems or simply mean Damage 2.0 or what not.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your point, just that I don't know which you are considering.

 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Whatever "parts" of the gameplay Vacuum could have broken had already been broken at this point. Never to come back. Dude, no offence, but you just keep saying "Universal vacuum will break the game in ways we couldn't possibly anticipate!" This isn't a valid argument. The lack of teamplay in Warframe, as I said before, is an issue that stems on the lack of a gameplay incentive to play in a team. It has nothing to do with loot pickup mechanics. Especially when normal Vacuum is readily available for all players anyway - so the choice of using Vacuum or not doesn't influence teamplay in the slightest.

 You keep saying that they should rework all the pets etc. Leaving aside the fact that it can't be done in any reasonable time frame without taking all the existing pets away from the players. What do you think that would even achieve? It won't solve the looting problem and won't necesseraly make animal companions more popular!

 I get it, you want customizable companions. And it's a cool idea. But right now, today it's unrealistic.

 On the other hand, Universal Vacuum could be done in a single patch and incredbibly easily.

And you fail to realize how integral game systems interact with each other. So from your point of view this is just a simple line of code that won't have impact on the total experience. I have worked in software development and it's never as simple as that. Alot of the major bugs people experience in a game come directly from the fact that small code changes are made which are seen as non-critical, and then that code change results in a butterfly effect that breaks some other aspect of the software. So stop saying it's would be easy to just add universal vacuum. I would require testing it out and would not be a simple patch. It would require programming and development resources.

At minimum, I can see a new player starting the game and never bothering to get a sentinel or pet if they had universal vacuum. They could avoid that grind entirely and get all the advantages that alot of people worked hard for and even payed plat for, which would lead to a change in the attitude about pets, and it would result in people not even using them anymore. And that would result in pets being relegated to what archwings are now. Except it's even worse because you don't even need a pet to finish any quest in the game.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

And you fail to realize how integral game systems interact with each other. So from your point of view this is just a simple line of code that won't have impact on the total experience. I have worked in software development and it's never as simple as that. Alot of the major bugs people experience in a game come directly from the fact that small code changes are made which are seen as non-critical, and then that code change results in a butterfly effect that breaks some other aspect of the software. So stop saying it's would be easy to just add universal vacuum. I would require testing it out and would not be a simple patch. It would require programming and development resources.

 First of all, by that logic DE shouldn't do anything with the game at all out of fear it would mess up "something" in the code due to "butterfly effect". This is plain out ridiculous. Secondly, it's not a coding issue. The basic framework for UV is already in the game (as per Scott, Devstream 100). So it is indeed a matter of changing the range of the already present in the game 3m UV.

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

At minimum, I can see a new player starting the game and never bothering to get a sentinel or pet if they had universal vacuum. They could avoid that grind entirely and get all the advantages that alot of people worked hard for and even payed plat for, which would lead to a change in the attitude about pets, and it would result in people not even using them anymore. And that would result in pets being relegated to what archwings are now. Except it's even worse because you don't even need a pet to finish any quest in the game.

 New players get Taxon almost immedeately after starting the game. For a new player Vacuum means nothing. They have no idea what it is. So they'll try Taxon just for the sake of trying Taxon and finding out what it does. I don't want to offend you and it's geniunely good to present things from an alternative perspective, but you're really grasping at straws here. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 29.11.2017 at 8:08 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

This is a Dev team that spent months concocting a second, forced combat system that is strictly subpar to the one already on offer in every way possible.

Never say never.

1 hour ago, Drusus said:

I can't glean from your description there if you mean Operator, Archwing or Conclave systems or simply mean Damage 2.0 or what not.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your point, just that I don't know which you are considering.

I'm pretty sure he meant the operators....oh, I see what you did there.

Edited December 15, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo