Enemy Design + Fissure Spawns: Combining to Create a Miserable Experience for Players

[Lyravain]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Apparently, its ok that the experience is subpar. For Operators. For Archwing. For Conclave. For Fissures. For Free Roam in the Plains. Its okay that none of those are nearly as good as they could be. After all, we could just...not do them.

Thing is... the experience isn't subpar. It's great. You just complain because you like complaining. You've been whining and whining and we've just been calling you out. The game is improving, week by week, just not in the specific way that you (and VERY few others) seem to demand.

To reiterate; No. It's not a miserable experience, it's fun. They gave them a couple gimmicks to survive our, frankly stupid, power levels and you complain about that as well. Warframe is a Power Fantasy game -but it needs a bit of balance. In this case it's invulnerability. Unless, I guess, you want enemies on the same level that Phorid is for bosses -a bullet sponge that dies in 1 hit (maybe 2-3 if you're in Sortie).

[Xzorn]

31 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

In the same sentence I say that it's easily avoidable, and if you aren't taking the proper tools in the mission with you to deal with a multitude of conceivable circumstances then you're just screwing yourself.

 

I gave you specific situations and I wana hear how you overcome them. I wana hear what cheese you're gunna use.

They're trap examples. Saying you can avoid them is admittance you're playing exactly by the means OP was protesting this game forces on players.

You can say that's fine but then I guess we should all play CL dagger Ivaras for Survivals or only Gara for Defense and only Limbo for Excavation. One of the greatest things about this game are the ways a player can approach situations but obnoxious enemy design limits that further every year. You cannot fight high level Infested without Invis, Mass CC or Bunker and you cannot avoid a Napalm blast in that situation unless you already have a wall between you.

Those situations are impossible to avoid without a specific setup and that's the problem.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

I gave you specific situations and I wana hear how you overcome them. I wana hear what cheese you're gunna use.

They're trap examples. Saying you can avoid them is admittance you're playing exactly by the means OP was protesting this game forces on players.

You can say that's fine but then I guess we should all play CL dagger Ivaras for Survivals or only Gara for Defense and only Limbo for Excavation. One of the greatest things about this game are the ways a player can approach situations but obnoxious enemy design limits that further every year. You cannot fight high level Infested without Invis, Mass CC or Bunker and you cannot avoid a Napalm blast in that situation unless you already have a wall between you.

Those situations are impossible to avoid without a specific setup and that's the problem.

And no one wants to admit this. 

Even my girl was puzzled for quite a while, asking me why I kept complaining about stuff she didnt experience. Wondering how I was constantly dragged about, pinballed in knockdown hell, etc. 

Finally, we swapped frames. I took the Rhino Prime and SHE took Nova/Frost/etc to those Fissure and Grineer missions. We did this for about 2 play sessions.

Her conclusion: You were right; without Iron skin immunity, its a ******* nightmare of annoyance. Not challenge. Not difficulty. The moment you finally get your control back, you're just going to wipe the room clear. There's nothing challenging about it at all.

Its just tedium. Sheer, perplexing, pointless tedium. In every Fissure mission. Its almost like they WANTED Fissures to be unfun, perhaps to sell something...

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Lyravain said:

Thing is... the experience isn't subpar. It's great. You just complain because you like complaining. You've been whining and whining and we've just been calling you out. The game is improving, week by week, just not in the specific way that you (and VERY few others) seem to demand.

To reiterate; No. It's not a miserable experience, it's fun. They gave them a couple gimmicks to survive our, frankly stupid, power levels and you complain about that as well. Warframe is a Power Fantasy game -but it needs a bit of balance. In this case it's invulnerability. Unless, I guess, you want enemies on the same level that Phorid is for bosses -a bullet sponge that dies in 1 hit (maybe 2-3 if you're in Sortie).

I dont disagree that our power levels our insane. In fact, the root of the problem with this sort of game play is grossly overpowered players that necessitate enemy who can react to us in a manner that is actually threatening, in a time frame so small you cant measure it with standard clock. 

But DE need to do something. Other posts here - and plenty of other posts elsewhere - have made it plain to see that, yes, it is widely believed that Warframe's enemy design is bad and getting worse. 

Most people dont like to have their input constantly robbed from them in a game. Most people dont like Escort missions, Invulnerable Phases over which the player has no influence or multi stage boss fights with forced waiting periods. And not only does Warframe do all of these things. It does them far, far too often. 

Someone needs to take a serious look not just at enemy design, but at the power level of the players that all but forces that design.

Me personally, I would get rid of scaling for a LOT of enemies. Then, I would get rid of all control robbing attacks. Lastly, I would give a HUGE buff to certain enemies in every faction, including diminishing returns resistance to powers, non-bypassable damage resistance and a spawn cap relative to players in a squad. Make them actual mini-bosses. Real, threatening mini-bosses. 

Then I would look at trimming back player power levels for a LOT of frames. But first and foremost, people need to realize: Most people dont play games to have their input constantly turned off. Its widely considered bad game design, and a huge no-no. 

[Shiichibukai]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb -AoN-CanoLathra-:

Oh yeah, sure, just never get Prime frames/weapons or any of Baro's offerings. That sounds like a great way to experience the game.

I mean, if someone has SUCH an issue with that particular game mode. Then might aswell not bother because its fine as it is, you have PLENTY of options on how to avoid all that stuff or how to play it right.

[ironfirefist]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

What it is - as stated, in the OP - is a BAD EXPERIENCE. Because its simple minded. Because its not fun. Because it involved NO actual decision making. 

The problem isnt that any of this bad design makes Warframe HARD. Its that it makes the game TEDIOUS. It encourages a spam powers or be spammed, binary situation. Which leaves zero room for playing tactically, making meaningful decisions, or even actually engaging enemies.

You play as tactically as you want yourself. If you wanna set up an elaborate vauban trap, you can.

You can make decisions. Wich synergy will you use? Wich weapons? Thing is that most of the decision making is pré-game. The modding, getting and choosing your frame.

I don't want to be that person that says "just don't play it". But I'm tempted to say so. This is the game design. It has improved massivly since beta, at wich point all of this was even more "tedious".

It's also a part of the game I like. Something unexpected happens. You gotta anticipate. Come up with a new plan instead of mindlessly charging through a horde of enemies.

47 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I dont disagree that our power levels our insane. In fact, the root of the problem with this sort of game play is grossly overpowered players that necessitate enemy who can react to us in a manner that is actually threatening, in a time frame so small you cant measure it with standard clock. 

Then I would look at trimming back player power levels for a LOT of frames. But first and foremost, people need to realize: Most people dont play games to have their input constantly turned off. Its widely considered bad game design, and a huge no-no. 

This all brings me to the second point.

Warframe says "you wanna be a goddamn space ninja that kills hordes of enemies with one button press? go ahead."

Obviously they can't just turn on godmode, since that's boring.

Warframe is a game that doesn't say no to "overpowered" and other powerfull means of getting the job done. And yes, if you're a veteran things can get boring sometimes, because you invested enough time into the game that some things become easier. If you do want a harder challenge, you can always go into missions with only mk1 weapons or guided effigy. Or do nightmares only. Build your own challenge (rivens implemented a part of a given challenge).

(on that note, in our clan we occasionally do a raid with random loadouts. It's fun to get pulled out of the comfort zone from time to time.)

Point is, the game is based on overpowered and unrealistic characters. We're playing a game about space ninjas FFS.

This requires the enemy to react threathening, but balanced threatening. Fissures is a way to add a twist to normal missions. You gotta cast that frost avalanche. Unless you run out of energy. In wich you run and try to regroup and deal with the matter otherwise. This isn't dishonored, where you have 3 possible ways to overcome an obstacle. 98% of all you do in a mission is kill and shoot. It's the game.

But really, a timeframe you can't measure it with a standard clock? An eyeblink is 0.1s. A knockdown in warframe is about 3 seconds. I think you might be exaggerating to get your point accros here.

Then again does this mean you gotta always block to prevent a grapple? Does it mean you have to go stealth always so a commander can't teleport you?

The answer is no. Just let it wash over you. Deal with it. Anticipate.

It can become annoying to you. At wich point you just take a little break from the game. Play another game, go for a walk outside, and when you feel like it come back and play again.

It's perfectly unbalanced, but if both sides are powerfull it evens itself out.

Your proposal of getting rid of all "control robbing" attacks just feels bad. Not just that, but turning every enemy into bullet spunges? That would make it even more tedious, repetetive and boring.

There are bulletspunges like bursas, ambulas and nox (and in the past sentient immumity) in the game already. And honestly, I wouldn't like them if they spawned as common as dirt.

If anything needs to happen, maybe it should me some LoS tweaks to commanders or a less accurate grapple. But there's no need to call the game (and it devs) bad. And yes, they want to sell something. Without the grind, the primes would have a low price. With making people want items, they finance the game and it's development. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[(XBOX)dude1286]

My biggest problems with fissures is that I feel punished for using frames like Equinox and Ember because reactant will rarely drop because you kill too quickly. The fissure does not spawn new enemies if it set its sights on a group, and it seems like reactant doesn't drop from enemies that are freshly corrupted.