With Khora just around the corner, Chroma needs an actual passive now more than ever.

[(PSN)Unstar]

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

As far as I am aware, Mesa still has 2 other parts to her passive: increased fire rate on dual pistols and increased reload on single pistols. Even if DE removed the +50 health with no melee equipped, she still has a passive over Chroma. I also believe that once upon a time that +50 health boost was deemed too great for Mesa's EHP in conclave that they did go ahead and removed it from PVP side. If something is still "going over my head" then I am missing something and would like more details.

Basically, there are a bunch of crappy passive abilities.  Wanting an "actual passive" is a bit of a strange request, considering that most of them are garbage.

At present, Chroma actually has a passive ability that is worth engaging with.  That puts him ahead of the curve in my opinion.  About half the frames have passives that do so little you'll seldom notice them, while some have abilities that are all but worthless (Mag, Nova).

[ZodiacShinryu]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

At present, Chroma actually has a passive ability that is worth engaging with.  That puts him ahead of the curve in my opinion.

You say he has a passive but you didn't say what it is. Enlighten me please. If you are saying that the current "passive" in game where he changes elements based on his energy color is a passive, we are going to disagree. That ability is not passive, it is ACTIVE. You have to go in and pick what you want, it accompanies no other actions. Currently, it functions as a 5th power that you activate and maintain before you start a mission and throughout the mission. You could split Chroma into 4 different frames and achieve the same results. You might as well split Exalted Excalibur and Excalibur. Speaking of, Chroma's "passive" is so passive that Excalibur has a mod that does it but better. If Vex wasn't as OP as it is we would be witnessing a mod that overshadows a whole frame. Lets look at Equinox. She has a "passive" where you pick a color value for energy to determine what form she starts in when you begin a mission (gee that sounds familiar). She also has another passive, innate equilibrium AND she gets to swap mid mission! Suppose we should petition DE to force Equinox (and eventually Khora) into a single form at the start of the mission because of some arbitrary "passive" too.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Basically, there are a bunch of crappy passive abilities.  Wanting an "actual passive" is a bit of a strange request, considering that most of them are garbage.

About half the frames have passives that do so little you'll seldom notice them, while some have abilities that are all but worthless (Mag, Nova).

In what world is not having an additive conditional bonus better than having an additive conditional bonus? Even a crappy bonus is better than no bonus because its just that, a bonus. You going to suggest that because you thought your food was too well done that someone who hasn't eaten in days would not eat it? Honestly I would agree that most the frames have really bad passives but they are just bonuses in this game. Nova's would be better if it was a much larger range and some people like the freedom of Mag's without a need of a sentinel or a slot at the very least. Ironically, Excalibur and Mesa have a similar issue to Chroma where their "passives" require actions before you start a mission that determine if you get anything. Though at least Excalibur's passive suppose to be active during Exalted no matter his melee choice and maybe Mesa's fire rate helps Peacemaker though its hard to say. Also this thread/request doesn't mean players cant champion better passives for other frames but if we are going to talk about advantages of other frames' passives against Chroma's lack of one, he could use even a crappy one.

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

You going to suggest that because you thought your food was too well done that someone who hasn't eaten in days would not eat it?

Please, please, please don't do this.  People who are starving deserve better than to be used as a tool to prop up an argument about video game super powers.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

If you are saying that the current "passive" in game where he changes elements based on his energy color is a passive, we are going to disagree. That ability is not passive, it is ACTIVE. You have to go in and pick what you want, it accompanies no other actions.

There are a handful of passives that encourage you to engage with them outside of missions.  There are several powers that give benefits to certain weapon types (Mesa, Excalibur), and if you want to get any benefit at all from them you need to equip those weapons before the mission.  To personally benefit from Oberon's passive, you need to bring a non-sentinel pet with you.  So at the very least, I wouldn't say Chroma is alone in having a passive that needs to be actively managed outside of combat.

But that said, your opinion is certainly legitimate.  It sounds like you want a passive that doesn't involve you putting any thought into it before the mission, and if that's the case, then Chroma's passive would certainly leave something to be desired.  Cool.

6 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

In what world is not having an additive conditional bonus better than having an additive conditional bonus? Even a crappy bonus is better than no bonus because its just that, a bonus

If you're disappointed with the semantics of Chroma's passive not being passive enough, fair enough.  But if you're going to dismiss the fact that being able to change the damage type of his powers is a bonus that can be used to your advantage...well, it seems insincere.  As you said, a crappy bonus is better than no bonus.

[DreamsmithJane]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

If you're disappointed with the semantics of Chroma's passive not being passive enough, fair enough.  But if you're going to dismiss the fact that being able to change the damage type of his powers is a bonus that can be used to your advantage...well, it seems insincere.  As you said, a crappy bonus is better than no bonus.

He has no passive at all. The text under his "passive" merely describes how his active abilities function. It isn't just "not passive enough". It's not passive at all, and only involves the use of his powers, including energy expenditure. It's not a bonus. It's just a description of how his abilities work, and doesn't modify any gameplay outside of active abilities, just like Nyx. A passive ability that actually provides a passive bonus is, for example, Equinox getting a free 10% Equilibrium, or Ivara getting free 20m enemy radar, or Nekros gaining health from nearby enemy deaths. Chroma? No passive. Don't act like people are nit-picking and fretting over semantics. He literally has no passive ability (and neither does Nyx).

[(PSN)Unstar]

16 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

He has no passive at all. The text under his "passive" merely describes how his active abilities function. It isn't just "not passive enough". It's not passive at all, and only involves the use of his powers, including energy expenditure. It's not a bonus. It's just a description of how his abilities work, and doesn't modify any gameplay outside of active abilities, just like Nyx. A passive ability that actually provides a passive bonus is, for example, Equinox getting a free 10% Equilibrium, or Ivara getting free 20m enemy radar, or Nekros gaining health from nearby enemy deaths. Chroma? No passive. Don't act like people are nit-picking and fretting over semantics. He literally has no passive ability (and neither does Nyx).

I mean, he literally does.  You're saying he technically doesn't. ;)

But clearly the devs think that Chroma's passive provides enough functionality to be considered a separate ability, rather than a part of his other abilities.  And you're welcome to disagree with this.  Just don't be surprised if not everyone accepts this as an objective truth.

Regardless, I'd gladly trade my Nova's Explosive Counter passive for your Chroma's Elemental Alignment passive, if you'd prefer not to have it.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I mean, he literally does.  You're saying he technically doesn't. ;)

No, I'm saying the (any) literal definition of the word does not in any way suit the ability in question, nor does said ability measure up to standards set by nearly every other similar piece of content. Don't wink at me. That's weird.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DreamsmithJane

[Sasuda]

Chroma is definitely in the boat of having a useful passive. Some frames definitely have more useful "passives" and "active" "passives" than others. Passives are more less frame specific effects the player doesn't affect while in mission, but affect the player while in mission.
 

18 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

You could split Chroma into 4 different frames

That sounds like a pretty impressive passive to me. This is why it's a good passive too actually. It affects all of his abilities and gives him a variety bonuses these play into his powers more than any other frame and actually affect his playstyle significantly. Could affect Effigy and stuff a bit more but seriously, Chroma has a good passive. Compare this to Rhino, innate heavy landing bonus. I mean it works and is kinda cool but it possibly may get in the way sometimes and generally you don't want to be particularly airborne since that prevents you from using your abilities... Equinox's passive is her default equilibrium (which is real good). Her color swap isn't really a similar passive to Chroma since it just decides the default state of her 1st ability. Chroma doesn't have a color change as an ability. If he did, I would agree he that would need a new passive.
Chroma basically has multiple passives with his abilities. I don't think Chroma needs a new passive, rather his abilities should be tweaked to be slightly less reliant on his passive and spread his use out across his abilities a bit more so he doesn't have 1 really great ability and 2 okay abilities and one mostly useless ability.
Yeah the more I think about it the more no to a new Chroma passive I am. So many other frames need better passives.

[(PSN)Unstar]

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

No, I'm saying the (any) literal definition of the word does not in any way suit the ability in question...

passive (păsˈĭv)►
adj.    1. not active.

What this means is that you don't do anything in-combat to get the bonus of the Passive Ability; it's not a buff you activate, nor is it move that you actively invoke.

In Chroma's case, his Passive Ability passively affects some of his active capabilities, namely his Active Abilities.  Instead of abilities always being Chroma's default element, they are automatically adjusted to be a potentially different element based upon factors that you have no control over within combat.  This isn't any different than how when Mirage bullet-jumps she automatically goes further, or how when Nezha slides he automatically goes further.

"But it's not passive if I have to do something!  I'm using a power, that makes it active."

This isn't an unreasonable conclusion to draw.  However, it ignores some very important context: the long history of passive abilities in games.  Go look at the passive abilities in any other number of games, from Dungeons and Dragons to World of Warcraft to Final Fantasy 14.  You'll find that passives come in all shapes and sizes, including many that affect specific active abilities.

But at the same time, you don't have to go too far from home to find these.  Mag's passive requires active player action, as does Limbo's, as do a gaggle of others.

"But I have to set it up outside of combat, so it's not really passive."

You could certainly make an argument that because any aspect of the ability isn't passive, the ability is unworthy of the word.  But again, this ignores the rich history of passive abilities in games.  Some passives need to be selectively activated in a skill tree, or can only be gained by beating a quest or equipping an item, or they can be powered up by devoting more "points" to them, or they do different things depending on what weapon your character is using.  All of these require "active" player intervention.

But in the world of games, we still consider these abilities to be passive, and that's probably because we're keeping in mind when these abilities will be useful to us.  And truth be told, combat-related abilities aren't any use outside of combat.  Are we doing anything in combat to customize these abilities?  Nope.  And that's likely why we consider them passives, because in the heat of combat, we don't have to even think of them — let alone press a button to configure them — to get their benefits.

And again, you don't have to look past Warframe to find that Chroma isn't alone in having this kind of passive.  Mesa and Excalibur are just two quick examples of Warframes that need to be customized outside of combat to benefit from their passive abilities.  Operators also have passives that can be selectively strengthened outside of combat.

"But it affects his active abilities, so it's really part of his active abilities."

I've already addressed this above.  There are plenty of passive abilities in games that affect specific abilities.  And again, you don't have to go outside of this game to find some others; Nyx and Octavia jump to mind.

And you might think that these passive abilities should just be fused with the active abilities, and that's not an unreasonable desire.  Maybe for you it makes more sense that way.  But it's not the only choice, and it's not objectively the best choice (and to be clear, it's not objectively the worst choice, either).

In summary, you're obviously welcome to have opinions about what changes you'd like to make, and to present them with vigor and passion.  You're also certainly free to argue that semantics make your viewpoint the objective truth...but that doesn't make it the truth.  Reality is more complicated than dictionary definitions.  There's a whole world out there that exists outside of Webster's domain (in this case, the specific context of games and their history as a medium), and it's important to take it into account.

[DreamsmithJane]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

What this means is that you don't do anything in-combat to get the bonus of the Passive Ability; it's not a buff you activate, nor is it move that you actively invoke.

I already pointed out that the "passive ability" is not a bonus at all. It does nothing at all, except describe how the active abilities already function. Most of your post is addressing points I never even made.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

"But it affects his active abilities, so it's really part of his active abilities."

I've already addressed this above.  There are plenty of passive abilities in games that affect specific abilities.  And again, you don't have to go outside of this game to find some others; Nyx and Octavia jump to mind.

No, you haven't addressed it. You've dismissed it with a vague allusion to other games, and you haven't even provided any actual examples. Your warframe examples are of abilities that actually do passively enhance or modify abilities that exist independently of said passives. You haven't begun to address the argument. I already pointed out that Nyx has the same problem. Yes, Octavia does as well. That doesn't mean Chroma has a passive. It just means that Nyx doesn't have one either, and Octavia's can only be argued on the fact that it enhances an already existing ability between all frames (transference) without any extra effort. In contrast to this, there is no version of Elemental Ward, for example, that is not affected by warframe energy colour. Describing the pre-existing function of active abilities does not count as a passive ability. That is the point I've been making all along.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

In summary, you're obviously welcome to have opinions about what changes you'd like to make, and to present them with vigor and passion.  You're also certainly free to argue that semantics make your viewpoint the objective truth...but that doesn't make it the truth.  Reality is more complicated than dictionary definitions.  There's a whole world out there that exists outside of Webster's domain (in this case, the specific context of games and their history as a medium), and it's important to take it into account.

That's why dictionaries contain multiple definitions that are revised over time. Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to pollute words with inconsistent or even contradictory usage, and thereby reduce their ability to perform their function. The only reason I'm presenting my views with "vigor and passion" is that you came in here trying to be condescending when your claims were blatantly inaccurate and illogical, and you're still doing it. There's a whole world out there that is what it is, and calling it something else doesn't change its nature. I afford everyone in cases like these some amount of patience, and your allotment has been exhausted. Have a nice life. Just leave me out of it.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Well, there's no point in my engaging on this issue any further.  What's more important than this discussion is the community, and the individual members of this community.

I want to apologize sincerely for your experience in this thread.  My intention was to respectfully engage with the topic at hand, and never to dismiss what you or anyone else was saying (though I certainly disagreed).  I wrote my words in an attempt to turn my thoughts, guided by those intentions, into something others could understand.  That said, my intentions do nothing to change the negative experience you had reading those words.  And that sucks.  That's not what I wanted.

I sincerely wish you no ill will, and genuinely wish you the best in the future.

[ZodiacShinryu]

20 hours ago, Sasuda said:

That sounds like a pretty impressive passive to me. This is why it's a good passive too actually. It affects all of his abilities and gives him a variety bonuses these play into his powers more than any other frame and actually affect his playstyle significantly.

Perhaps its better to look at what a "passive" is/does in this game rather than argue over the semantics of the fundaments of what a passive is. I will not argue that Chroma's forms work in a passive nature because you literally do nothing with them (there is no null state to his concept). If you wish to view that as a passive in this game, fine. However in the same vein you actively blur what is "active" and what is "passive" as pertaining to this game. There are "active" powers on many frames that do things passively, as well as "passives" that affect powers. But when you look at Warframe passives as a whole, they are all additive bonuses more than just a simple definition of passive (proof of such is the fact that most of the passives were added after the fact). So yes, Chroma's current passive does affect his playstyle significantly... because it is main mechanic, his whole concept from which his name was derived, the reason you would pick him over any other frame. He IS THEE ONLY frame with a passive that fundamentally affects how he plays. Excalibur's/Mesa's sword/pistol affinity passive does not require they equip a sword/pistols to use their abilities, the passive is merely additive. However If we could somehow not have an energy color on Chroma he would be reduced to 1 power, Vex (luckily Vex is great); that is how integral his passive is to his kit. When I say he can be split into 4 different frames, it is not a good thing that his passive corrects; he should be one frame with 4 aspects. Furthermore because of his integral passive we run into this passive vs active problem. Lets pretend that he was always just 4 separate frames set with an element then all his elemental wards (because they share no common ground) are no different than say Valkyr's Warcry or Rhino's Roar, they are just arbitrary active buffs. But a question, what would their passives be in these cases? The correct answer is they don't have one. Chroma's passive brings them into one frame (even though they are still 4 separate frames in practice) but that is all that it does. His "passive" does nothing for him except explain how to equip a new frame (which you can easily change to any other frame because they take place in the same place at the same time). And to head off the argument that some frames have "useless passives that do nothing for them" is irrelevant because they are merely additive bonuses on every other frame and Chroma doesn't even have that. I said it before I don't like many of the passives (oddly Ember sports my favorite passive) but by the numbers and by consistency, even in a world of bad passives Chroma needs one in the first place.

21 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Equinox's passive is her default equilibrium (which is real good). Her color swap isn't really a similar passive to Chroma since it just decides the default state of her 1st ability. Chroma doesn't have a color change as an ability. If he did, I would agree he that would need a new passive.

But isn't that the crux of the issue. You give Equinox a pass even though technically she exhibits the same "passive" ability as Chroma but still have that additive bonus of innate equilibrium because her 1 allows her to swap. If she didn't have her 1 as it is then she would be exactly like Chroma, a frame that could be split into 2 different frames that you would pick like picking any other frame before a mission. In the same reasoning there isn't any particular reason Chroma couldn't be allowed to swap elements in a mission (the tech is already in game now).

The fact of the matter is the game has come a long way in the almost 3 years since Chroma was release. Chroma was released before Equinox and it was just accepted that his passive be what is what it is because at that point in time there was no precedent on how to swap forms in a single kit let alone a single power. The way DE designed Chroma's powers made it clear that he wasn't going to utilize his elemental powers individually per power and it was an acceptable way around the system. Then Equinox released and they devised a way to do more than just shift power effects (all that Chroma does) but a whole model swap through a single power and it was given a pass because at that time most the frames didn't have "passives" at this time. It also helped that the way her 1 works made more sense to swap between 2 states than Chroma's 4 states (it would've been inefficient/ineffective to swap that way on Chroma). But then Ivara came with Quiver and eventually all the frames were given some form of passive (except Chroma as such this discussion). Quiver mechanic provides an excellent opportunity to somehow add a shifting feature into his kit (which also has threads on these forums). Chroma's problems could very well be from circumstances of the time (aging pains) rather than the ideal design choice. Honestly he needs it with Excalibur's augment mod's existence so that Chroma can reinforce his concept as his own foremost.

Khora will be the ultimate test. She has (3) forms like Chroma (4) and Equinox (2). The question is how will she come out. From the last Devstream of the year, she looked like she supports a quiver like mechanic for changing forms in mission. We don't know what her passive is but it is unlikely that it'll be directly related to form swapping (or how there of).

[-CM-Machete]

I don't see why not, it should have been default from the start tho, I don't see why they put a terribad version of the Ignis plus a self-cripple (they obviously wanted to balance such OP ability by crippling you Kappa ) instead of an actually useful skill, no, you need to change color schemes because gimmicks are better than usability.

[Sasuda]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:20 PM, ZodiacShinryu said:

Perhaps its better to look at what a "passive" is/does in this game rather than argue over the semantics of the fundaments of what a passive is. I will not argue that Chroma's forms work in a passive nature because you literally do nothing with them (there is no null state to his concept). If you wish to view that as a passive in this game, fine. However in the same vein you actively blur what is "active" and what is "passive" as pertaining to this game. There are "active" powers on many frames that do things passively, as well as "passives" that affect powers. But when you look at Warframe passives as a whole, they are all additive bonuses more than just a simple definition of passive (proof of such is the fact that most of the passives were added after the fact). So yes, Chroma's current passive does affect his playstyle significantly... because it is main mechanic, his whole concept from which his name was derived, the reason you would pick him over any other frame. He IS THEE ONLY frame with a passive that fundamentally affects how he plays. Excalibur's/Mesa's sword/pistol affinity passive does not require they equip a sword/pistols to use their abilities, the passive is merely additive. However If we could somehow not have an energy color on Chroma he would be reduced to 1 power, Vex (luckily Vex is great); that is how integral his passive is to his kit. When I say he can be split into 4 different frames, it is not a good thing that his passive corrects; he should be one frame with 4 aspects. Furthermore because of his integral passive we run into this passive vs active problem. Lets pretend that he was always just 4 separate frames set with an element then all his elemental wards (because they share no common ground) are no different than say Valkyr's Warcry or Rhino's Roar, they are just arbitrary active buffs. But a question, what would their passives be in these cases? The correct answer is they don't have one. Chroma's passive brings them into one frame (even though they are still 4 separate frames in practice) but that is all that it does. His "passive" does nothing for him except explain how to equip a new frame (which you can easily change to any other frame because they take place in the same place at the same time). And to head off the argument that some frames have "useless passives that do nothing for them" is irrelevant because they are merely additive bonuses on every other frame and Chroma doesn't even have that. I said it before I don't like many of the passives (oddly Ember sports my favorite passive) but by the numbers and by consistency, even in a world of bad passives Chroma needs one in the first place.

But isn't that the crux of the issue. You give Equinox a pass even though technically she exhibits the same "passive" ability as Chroma but still have that additive bonus of innate equilibrium because her 1 allows her to swap. If she didn't have her 1 as it is then she would be exactly like Chroma, a frame that could be split into 2 different frames that you would pick like picking any other frame before a mission. In the same reasoning there isn't any particular reason Chroma couldn't be allowed to swap elements in a mission (the tech is already in game now).

The fact of the matter is the game has come a long way in the almost 3 years since Chroma was release. Chroma was released before Equinox and it was just accepted that his passive be what is what it is because at that point in time there was no precedent on how to swap forms in a single kit let alone a single power. The way DE designed Chroma's powers made it clear that he wasn't going to utilize his elemental powers individually per power and it was an acceptable way around the system. Then Equinox released and they devised a way to do more than just shift power effects (all that Chroma does) but a whole model swap through a single power and it was given a pass because at that time most the frames didn't have "passives" at this time. It also helped that the way her 1 works made more sense to swap between 2 states than Chroma's 4 states (it would've been inefficient/ineffective to swap that way on Chroma). But then Ivara came with Quiver and eventually all the frames were given some form of passive (except Chroma as such this discussion). Quiver mechanic provides an excellent opportunity to somehow add a shifting feature into his kit (which also has threads on these forums). Chroma's problems could very well be from circumstances of the time (aging pains) rather than the ideal design choice. Honestly he needs it with Excalibur's augment mod's existence so that Chroma can reinforce his concept as his own foremost.

Khora will be the ultimate test. She has (3) forms like Chroma (4) and Equinox (2). The question is how will she come out. From the last Devstream of the year, she looked like she supports a quiver like mechanic for changing forms in mission. We don't know what her passive is but it is unlikely that it'll be directly related to form swapping (or how there of).

Mesa And Excal have passives that don't require you to have a pistol or a melee, but it does a massive toll on your damage output so they actually do have a pretty critical passive ability of having abilities affected by weapon mods. It doesn't affect their whole kit cleanly but those are the actual good passives on those frames. They're not directly mentioned as passive abilities but I think they really should be. 

If Chroma had no color he wouldn't be reduced to 1 power. I'm not sure what you're saying there. In terms of a theoretical no color Chroma would mean generic rather than specific elemental damages, and more generic small bonuses on his abilities. In this way his passive is also merely additive, It adds specific elemental effects to his abilities.
And while I kinda went along with the thought that Chroma could be split into 4 frames I really don't think that's true. His abilities don't change that much between colors. It's rather like he has 4 optional passives. For the most part his "additive bonus" passives are built into Elemental Ward which kinda doesn't make them "true passives" sure. But then for them to be "true passives" you just take them off of Elemental Ward and as constant buffs to Chroma. If that's what you'd prefer sure I guess I'd agree to that change. But he doesn't need a new passive really. More like retweaked abilities which is what I suggested.
Ember's Passive is one of the worst ones, and requires you to be actively getting it moreso than Chroma. Chroma's elemental bonuses may require abilities, but Ember's requires walking into damage for a boost that isn't worthwhile at all and also mostly only affects active abilities, other then the energy regen which isn't very good and is counter intuitive to using her 4th. And like I said Rhino's Passive isn't really necessarily additive at all and is counter intuitive to his stay grounded design with Rhino Stomp. Chroma's elemental statuses are far more useful (cold happens to have generally more useful status effect, but other procs are still very good). Those are his passives, and they're quite good.
Again Equinox's passive is very different, because she has very different design and abilities. Her forms operate very differently to Chroma's elements. She is designed around  constantly adapting to changing situations, Chroma's elements keep him relatively stable in different situations and it's more along the lines of choosing a passive to suit missions and preffered setups rather than respond to enemies changing. The nature of design is different,to the point that her colour passive has a completely different potiential, she's not designed around being locked into a single form. One is designed around stability and the other around adaptation. Even if you were to be able to swap Chroma's color's on the fly he's generally better suited to being stable and sticking with one element.

Khora is looking to be a balance between the stable and adaptive natures that Equinox and Chroma have.

[Endless_Destruction]

Just an idea that I've had for a while:

What if we got rid of Vex Armor as an ability, and made Scorn/Fury a two part passive that takes effect when taking damage? Not modifiable with power strength, but no cap either, armor and damage can just keep on rising. Of course, it would have to be at a much slower rate, but this would actually allow Chroma to scale alongside enemies instead of hitting a hard cap at some point where that stupid amount of damage he has currently has just isn't enough, and it would eliminate his extremely annoying handicap of having to go hide in a corner every minute or so to refresh his buffs, and it would open up a new ability slot that could offer a more engaging playstyle than "run away when your timer hits 0."

Vex Armor is the best ability that Chroma has, because it directly contributes to making sure everything dies while you don't in a better way than any of the other abilities do. So, to maximize Chroma's effectiveness, one should build for Vex Armor, which conveniently benefits EW as well. The problem is that maximizing VA is demanding, so removing it and making it an always on passive would encourage build diversity.

As far as switching elements go, both Spectral Scream and Elemental Ward could be given the Ivara treatment and allow a tap-to-swtich-element-for-this-ability and a hold-to-cast. The only thing energy color would affect is which element each power is set to at mission start, similar to equinox.

[ZodiacShinryu]

13 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Mesa And Excal have passives that don't require you to have a pistol or a melee, but it does a massive toll on your damage output so they actually do have a pretty critical passive ability of having abilities affected by weapon mods. It doesn't affect their whole kit cleanly but those are the actual good passives on those frames. They're not directly mentioned as passive abilities but I think they really should be. 

What? First, Excalibur/Mesa's passives are not integral and that was the point. They do not take a massive toll on damage because it is simply 10% damage and attack speed on Excalibur and 10-20% fire-rate and reload on Mesa for equipping their theme of weapons. You lose more if you take off a mod then if you just ignore the rules of their passives. You equip claws on Excalibur and you just lose ~10% of your potential melee damage if you were to use a sword, it affects nothing else (technically you get his passive bonus when he is using Exalted no matter what he uses). The only time you lose massive damage output (as far as their abilities are concerned) is if you equip NOTHING but the passives don't take it that far because the abilities take the generic mods from any equipped weapon for their damage. Second, they are directly mentioned within the game as passives. You go to your arsenal and click on your "warframe" tab then click the "abilities" tab and its in the left under "passive ability". All the passives currently are listed this way even Chroma's.

13 hours ago, Sasuda said:

If Chroma had no color he wouldn't be reduced to 1 power. I'm not sure what you're saying there. In terms of a theoretical no color Chroma would mean generic rather than specific elemental damages, and more generic small bonuses on his abilities. In this way his passive is also merely additive, It adds specific elemental effects to his abilities.

What again? You can't infer what doesn't exist. Based on what his powers do, having "no color" is a null. Generic elemental damage DOES NOT EXIST. Well that's not entirely true anymore with the addition of Plains of Eidolon and Operator 2.0 for which the "Void" damage type was added to operator amps only. We should also take note that Chroma existed far longer than operators (as far as gameplay goes) and as such this argument wouldn't even hold weight just 7 months ago (as this debate has been going on for years). However to do damage in this game you MUST produce physical damage (Impact/Puncture/Slash) and/or elemental damage (all the rest and I guess void for operators), there are no other damage types that exist. Without a color he can't have an element because that is his passive after all. Spectral Scream (his 1) only does damage/procs and without an element, what damage type is it suppose to do? Unless you somehow think it would do IPS (there is nothing to support that it would being those are physical) SS could not deal damage as far as the game is concerned. Effigy (his 4) is basically a turret of his 1 and the same rules apply. I suppose Effigy could exist but it would not be able to deal damage. Elemental Ward is all elemental as well leaving just Vex Armor. So yes just 1 power (or 1.5 if you want to include that even more worthless Effigy).

As far as Ward is concerned, as I said before, each Ward share no common traits (they share no traits at all even between 2 let alone 4). No element means no Ward. There is no generic small bonus to fall back on in this "null" situation, DE would need to add things to all his abilities (except Vex). If you mean they could do that then fine, but at that point its just as much work to give him a new passive and the ability to shift between his elements in a mission.

13 hours ago, Sasuda said:

And while I kinda went along with the thought that Chroma could be split into 4 frames I really don't think that's true. His abilities don't change that much between colors. It's rather like he has 4 optional passives. For the most part his "additive bonus" passives are built into Elemental Ward which kinda doesn't make them "true passives" sure. But then for them to be "true passives" you just take them off of Elemental Ward and as constant buffs to Chroma. If that's what you'd prefer sure I guess I'd agree to that change. But he doesn't need a new passive really. More like retweaked abilities which is what I suggested.

I didn't say it was good design to split him into 4 frames, it was my explanation of his passive. That is how is passive functionally works with how he is designed. People would call it extremely lazy if DE released him as such (4 separate frames to be clear) because you are right the only thing that changes is his Wards (his 2) and the damage type of his 1 and 4. However he basically is this because as I said picking a frame and picking a color happen in the same place at the same time. By splitting him into 4 frames you just skip having to pick a color, that is all his passive does.

You would be right about the "additive bonus" being built into his Wards IF his wards shared something in common; but they don't. It is not an additive bonus because it is the base ability. And like I said, because of how you pick Chroma and his form, it is really no different than saying Elec Ward is on a different frame as Cold Ward then it is to say Rhino has Roar and Valkyr has Warcry. They are all base abilities that you pick ahead of time by the virtue of the frame you pick before you start.

So what I would prefer is to just give him the quiver treatment and allow him to change his element when he wants and just give him a new passive. No need to retweak anything outside of the retweaking that every frame needs (which I have my own ideas on a whole Chroma rework that would get its own thread).

13 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Ember's Passive is one of the worst ones, and requires you to be actively getting it moreso than Chroma. Chroma's elemental bonuses may require abilities, but Ember's requires walking into damage for a boost that isn't worthwhile at all and also mostly only affects active abilities, other then the energy regen which isn't very good and is counter intuitive to using her 4th. And like I said Rhino's Passive isn't really necessarily additive at all and is counter intuitive to his stay grounded design with Rhino Stomp. Chroma's elemental statuses are far more useful (cold happens to have generally more useful status effect, but other procs are still very good). Those are his passives, and they're quite good.

I didn't say Ember's was great (though it easily could be made so), I said it was my favorite. It is like 5e/sec and 50% power strength (no mod required), that is amazing. The bad part is the heat proc on yourself because Ember really cant afford to be damaged and heat procs can be no joke. You can proc it yourself with self damage (my current favorite way is a Zaw with Exodia Contagion and exploiting the damage fall off on the explosion resulting in a heat proc that does next to no damage) but yes it is fairly active to do so. Not that it matters because the whole debate over that is semantics when it is still just an additive bonus to her kit. How could DE make this just a solid passive? Giving her powers a chance to proc a 1 heat damage per sec proc on herself in some fashion (maybe an overheat type mechanic). Every now and then she could just passively enjoy energy regen or power or both depending on how she is fighting. Believe it or not you don't need (or build for) her 4th up all the time as using Accelerant and heat weaponry gives great results.

Rhino's passive is not great (way worse than Ember's could ever be) I can agree but it is still an additive bonus. It goes off passively when he falls a distance (doesn't need to be a hard landing) and It goes off all the time when I travel through the plains. It just doesn't have any real combat utility because you'd be better just engaging with the enemy but if you are just running around you might hit some enemies as you pass by. By the numbers, having a bonus is still better than not having one (my position on Chroma). Should Chroma get a passive, yes. Should Rhino get a new passive, yes. They are mutually exclusive issues not ultimatums.

13 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Again Equinox's passive is very different, because she has very different design and abilities. Her forms operate very differently to Chroma's elements. She is designed around  constantly adapting to changing situations, Chroma's elements keep him relatively stable in different situations and it's more along the lines of choosing a passive to suit missions and preffered setups rather than respond to enemies changing. The nature of design is different,to the point that her colour passive has a completely different potiential, she's not designed around being locked into a single form. One is designed around stability and the other around adaptation. Even if you were to be able to swap Chroma's color's on the fly he's generally better suited to being stable and sticking with one element.

But its not. It only seems different because she can do something he can not: Shift. Equinox can change her playstyle based on a situation (though much like Chroma ends up spending more time in a single form because everyone only cares about damage) but Chroma could change his playstyle if he could shift as well. They are both adaptive warframes the difference is not how they were designed but the timescale of the change. Equinox is freer in comparison. Chroma could easily adapt to his surroundings if he could change as simply as Equinox. The basic adaptation is enemy weakness exploitation through elemental rotations. Next is proc control. Then comes the playstyle changes from how Ward functions. Chroma could use Cold to give him safety while building up his Vex or dishing out cold procs to CC the enemy. Cold could be used when you expect to take heavy damage or when you need to get in the thick of it to revive someone. But once those situations pass and Vex is up to protect you, he could go toxin to get the scalable toxin damage and enhance gun play. Or he could go Elec and turn the enemy's damage against them while throwing out some stuns. Or Fire to add some survivability to your team through the health boost and some situational healing (which took a really big hit when they made it per cast instead of when affected) as well as some panic procs. Both Chroma and Equinox are as dynamic as you want them to be. I can tell you if Chroma could swap it would definitely not be better to stay one element.

I would just like to say that DE's own official description of him is: "Master of the elements. Adaptable to any combat scenario, he reigns supreme on the battlefield." While the way he is now doesn't technically betray this, there is a lot to be desired in both elements and adaptability. In that he doesn't really adapt as much as he predetermines a course of action. It is a subtle difference but a difference none the less.

Edit: Forgot Khora but I felt it was important

Khora seems more like Chroma than she does Equinox. The only thing she would be borrowing from this particular later example is the ability to shift forms in mission. However the ability to swap isn't particularly an Equinox exclusive trait. Ivara and her Quiver ability (also given to Vauban) is how it looks like Khora's shifting will manifest (and again something Chroma could also benefit from). But Chroma and Khora have a lot in common and act like foils. They are damage type manipulators. Khora is master of the physical types while Chroma would be ideally the master of the elemental types. They both have a companion in their abilities. Their damage type doesn't change the way the powers function (aka its not a new power) but may have special behaviors and stats that accompany them.

Edited December 29, 2017 by ZodiacShinryu
Added Khora

[RazzIeDazzIe]

Careful what you wish for or you could end up with a no self damage passive.

[Sajochi]

I was floating around an idea that Chroma's passive should not only make each element unique but make their effects trigger on appropriate status procs. The details are in this thread:

In short, I'm against mid mission element changes and for tactical builds or finding something that fits your playstyle. Each element should feel strong and change how you play each one, so they should all look appealing.

[Sasuda]

On 12/29/2017 at 10:16 AM, ZodiacShinryu said:

What?

This seems to be a misunderstanding. I had believed you were saying Mesa/Excal with weapon vs. no weapon based on " . Excalibur's/Mesa's sword/pistol affinity passive does not require they equip a sword/pistols to use their abilities", sorry I misunderstood that as (does not require they equip a melee/secondary). I get that she has the dual pistol, single pistol, no melee specific passives. But I more or less was saying just because a passive isn't written in the ability description, doesn't mean it's not there. I think both frames have a passive ability of having their 4th abilities affected by weapon rather than Warframe slot mods. Which like a said isn't in any in-game description but I think belongs under the passive section. You're free to not share that line of thought, but I think it's a pretty significant detail in classifying their passives. The actual described parts of Mesa's Passive are almost insignificant. But because of the mod effect, which I consider to be a part of her passive, I think her passive is mostly good ( I don't really like that it just is for Peacemaker is the point I'd like to see improved but that involves some complex tweaking which is off topic.) Excals attack speed bonus has greater affect due to how melee works, but I have similar thoughts in regards to that.

I'm well aware of building for accelerant, her passive should be activated through Fireball I think. (it's also 35% not 50%) but I think it's crappy when passives work in contradiction to Warframe abilities at all.

On 12/29/2017 at 10:16 AM, ZodiacShinryu said:

Should Chroma get a passive, yes. Should Rhino get a new passive, yes

I think Chroma has a passive, in applying elements & statuses. it could be made better that's fair I agree with that. What I think on what it should be is basically the passive @Sajochi suggested.

15 hours ago, Sajochi said:

Chroma's passive should not only make each element unique but make their effects trigger on appropriate status procs

It's more or less the same effects that Elemental Ward has slightly expanded. Which is why I was trying to say when I was talking about that he has passives, they're possibly too connected to Elemental Ward. Basically the changes to the passive described in https://forums.warframe.com/topic/897090-chroma-changes-that-are-needed/ Are the same as how I see it. (I have to come back to this to look into the rest, thanks for sharing.)

 

On 12/29/2017 at 10:16 AM, ZodiacShinryu said:

But its not.

I disagree, Equinox cannot be both high damage output, and defensive support at the same time. She is designed very much push and pull with her 2 forms changing. Chroma can do both very well at the same time and in general functions relatively consistent in his 4 different elements. Equinox does not gain additional elements, statuses or other side effects on top of her other abilities basic functions based on her color at all. It changes her abilities between aggression and support. Chroma's element and status passive may seem lackluster, but that's more due to his 1st and 4th abilities being underwhelming along with the basic elements having lackluster procs, not because he has no passive. Her passive is exclusively for the sake of deciding whether abilities are offensive or defensive supporting on mission start, it's the nature of the abilities that make the passives have completely different meanings. It's not like she does what Chroma does with abilities but better because she shifts, her abilities are based on shifting often because they have polarized effects. Adaptation for mission "combat scenario", vs adaptation for instances in battle. I'm not saying he's not adaptable, I'm saying ability nature's between the 2 are not alike, and Chroma favors to specialized in advance for his abilities & weapons with his effect over changing effect on builds & weapons. Putting in a color swap woun't be useless or bad, but mostly unnecessary.

[ZodiacShinryu]

19 minutes ago, Sasuda said:

I disagree, Equinox cannot be both high damage output, and defensive support at the same time. She is designed very much push and pull with her 2 forms changing. Chroma can do both very well at the same time and in general functions relatively consistent in his 4 different elements. Equinox does not gain additional elements, statuses or other side effects on top of her other abilities basic functions based on her color at all. It changes her abilities between aggression and support. Chroma's element and status passive may seem lackluster, but that's more due to his 1st and 4th abilities being underwhelming along with the basic elements having lackluster procs, not because he has no passive. Her passive is exclusively for the sake of deciding whether abilities are offensive or defensive supporting on mission start, it's the nature of the abilities that make the passives have completely different meanings. It's not like she does what Chroma does with abilities but better because she shifts, her abilities are based on shifting often because they have polarized effects.

I think you misunderstand why I pull Equinox and Chroma together. Equinox is a flexible support frame while Chroma is a frontline warrior frame so of course they aren't going to be alike in abilities. It is about mechanical function not about concept and design. Chroma per color theme has a set of skills, period. Equinox per color value has a set of skills, period. If it wasn't for her ability to shift she mechanically functions like Chroma based around what she picks before the mission, again like Chroma. Chroma came out before Equinox so it is natural she has more going on (it is a trend, look at the warframe progression). Equinox is not the sole example of abilities that shift function (with Khora just adding more to the pile). The question is if we erased Chroma from this history and DE decided to design Chroma as the next Warframe, what would he look like now? My guess is he would look a lot more like Khora (they feel like brother and sister to me, for now). You said, "Her passive is exclusively for the sake of deciding whether abilities are offensive or defensive supporting on mission start, it's the nature of the abilities that make the passives have completely different meanings," but as far as Chroma's elemental abilities go there isn't a particularly good reason this couldn't be the same for him.

Now, Equinox not being both highly defensive and highly offensive at the same time is irrelevant to this particular debate because Chroma can only do it because Vex which has nothing to do with whether the is passive: good, bad, real, or fake. Vex has no elemental properties. Equinox's concept is change/transition and it manifests through her manipulation of combat pacing/timing. Day is offensive support while Night is defensive support both can be used aggressively or passively. I would like to point out you said, "Equinox does not gain additional elements, statuses or other side effects on top of her other abilities basic functions based on her color at all. It changes her abilities between aggression and support," but Chroma doesn't particularly gain anything on top of his choice of color either (definitely no side effects). It is a simple damage type shift at base which does very little for the basic function of a damage power long-term (in comparison to weapons anyway). A change in status is somewhat comparable to a change in function ideally much like what happens with Equinox. Furthermore Ward behaves exactly like Equinox when she shifts because it gains completely new properties (some Wards are more offensive then defensive). Simply, a change of state is a change in function for Equinox but that is also true for Chroma's elemental abilities.  I disagree that the primary elements are lackluster also. Cold is great CC one of my favorite Frost builds mass CC Ice wave. Toxin ignores shields and can be a powerful dot. Heat can cause panic stuns and also deal high dot damage. Elec can chain damage and stun as well. They are not lackluster just his 1 and 4 are at utilizing them.

3 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Adaptation for mission "combat scenario", vs adaptation for instances in battle. I'm not saying he's not adaptable, I'm saying ability nature's between the 2 are not alike, and Chroma favors to specialized in advance for his abilities & weapons with his effect over changing effect on builds & weapons. Putting in a color swap woun't be useless or bad, but mostly unnecessary.

He is not adapting. He forces his way through missions by the virtue of Vex. His passive's effect on Ward is secondary to dictate playstyle. So is it unnecessary to add shifting? Maybe but giving him the ability to do so gives him flexibility and freedom to adapt to not only the enemy but his allies. Honestly his allies are the bigger variable. There isn't any particular reason to limit his playstyle in this fashion.

1 hour ago, Sasuda said:

It's more or less the same effects that Elemental Ward has slightly expanded. Which is why I was trying to say when I was talking about that he has passives, they're possibly too connected to Elemental Ward. Basically the changes to the passive described in https://forums.warframe.com/topic/897090-chroma-changes-that-are-needed/ Are the same as how I see it.

I have looked through Sajochi's thread and there are things I like and things I dislike. As far as my thoughts go on their thread I will make them there when I decided how I wish to address them. However, what I can say is that those ideas still don't dissuade the mechanic of allowing Chroma to shift freely. I know they said they are against it but it is a self imposed arbitrary limitation. Which is really where this debate goes every time: What are the limitations we subject Chroma to for what he has?  Ultimately as long as he can not benefit from more than one elemental buff at a time I don't see where he gains any massive benefit (not already given by Vex) that validates the gimmick of a passive he has. What he does gain is freedom and whether the player wants to use it and how they use it is their choice. Because of Elemental Ward, shifting would give him an identity and flexiblity beyond just Vex. Currently Chroma is just Vex (well mostly). If we talk just about damage types and procs he doesn't have anything more than just picking say Frost, Ember, Volt, or Saryn. Shifting and adding a new passive is a simple QoL change. As compared to tweaking his passive then reworking the abilities around it. If we are just going to rework him we can make anything work.

As I have said, I have my own thread worthy ideas about grand changes to Chroma that are still formulating. I will make that thread after DE makes their elemental proc changes or they hint they are going to start looking at him (likely by summer or fall when his Prime chances come around).