Brilliant game, loot system is poorly designed

[Shaantituz]

So played this game with some mates for like 30 days and now every single one them has quit. Which is a real shame because the mechanics, the graphics, the optimization and many other aspects are just brilliantly executed but the loot system is just plain bad. No this isn't an attack on the insane RNG this is another issue all together. The main problem here is the content scaling. The question we all asked is "exactly why am I farming for this mod?" all of the most important mods come from insanely easy but heavily RNG content. The acolytes are an example, shell shock, condition overload the list goes on. Where is the reward for doing harder content? You can push a survival for 40 minutes and be getting the same rewards you got 20 minutes ago. This just makes no sense. There is no incentive to actually get better mods because there is no incentive to do harder content

For example I use atomos pretty much all the time. Why? Because it clears trash so easily. My akstilletto primes have 4 formas on them but I dont even use them . Because no content that provides decent rewards even needs them. So farming things like condition overload, or the acolytes, or shell shock  became pointless and I just stopped because you realize you don't even need the mod. I actually have all these mods now but I dont even use them. Why do I want maiming strike, I already kill all the mobs in one hit, does maiming strike mean I dont have to hit them at all?

In a similar way I used to optimize and forma each warframe and test them on  40-45 level void missions or push the void survival past 20 minutes. Then I realized you actually get no better rewards from harder content...so why bother maximizing warframes.

The placement/reward of mods seems to be just the totally random with no attempt to reward attempts at more difficult content.

The other issue with the loot system is that it is just RNG, there is no incremental reward. The devs need to look at every other game in this or similar genres and realize this methodology is dead. The issue with just an RNG system is if I farm for 4 hours and don't get the mod I am after I get nothing. I may as well just not have played for 4 hours. Every other game has realized this and added some incremental advancement to reward you for time spent.  I think focus was meant to fill this role but it is just so bad, no one cares.

I really feel if you changed loot so that you rewarded players for doing difficult content you could create some kind on incentive to actually chase these rewards. Ask yourself this. If there was a mod that increased mod drop rates but didnt help in any other way would that be the most valuable mod in the game. I am sure it would be. This tells you the ONLY challenge in this game is RNG not the actual content

Edited December 27, 2017 by Shaantituz
spelling

[BlackCoMerc]

Valid concerns. Especially the "get nothing for your time" argument. This is what has finally driven back to Long term break status. Tired of literally wasting my time.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the game play. I do. But to play for hours, in a loot grind game, and functionally not get loot...sorry, but no.

[ACULonSeer]

I actually wish I didn't see this thread, cause you're absolutely right D:

[Sintag]

Annnnnd you just ruined the game for me forever c:

[GinKenshin]

so....you basically play for rewards? that, sir, is your problem :P 

[TARINunit9]

35 minutes ago, Shaantituz said:

The other issue with the loot system is that it is just RNG, there is no incremental reward.

They experimented with incremental rewards with void fissures, but clearly they made the wrong variables increment because a lot of us never noticed

[Xolgys]

warframe is not the only game with rng. basically every game where u have droptables on enemies like path of exile for example or mmorpgs in general have this issue where ur either lucky or u wasted some hours. if u play exclusively for rewards one could ask u why...because the essence of playing a game should be >>>FUN<<<. yes sure u want some type of progress and reward, but on the counterside many games who have kind of weakened the RNG issue reward some kind of token or similar, which can then be traded over into what u actually want and for the most part these "tokens" or whatever its called in detail are not reward in too big amounts. u will "waste" time anyway, like most forms of entertainment. i dont wanna say that warframes RNG and droprates are perfect, but when u get stuff too easily they lose value quickly and u lose long term progress/motivation, unless u enjoy running endurance runs just for the fun. ur complaints are not directed at warframe alone no matter how u formulate it, ur generally complaining about RNG drops in games, of which there are still enough. RNG is not as outdated as u say and those games who dont have literal drop tables have really high costs on craftig materials for example or whatever is required to get what u want, especially f2p titles, since they want to encourage purchases of peremium currency. u will always have to deal with a variation of either of those. the games who give u stuff too quickly one way or another dont make it for a very long time, simply because players wont have much to do at some point without any progress left. the balance is important, not removing RNG completely imo. i agree on incremental rewards because some drops are just silly valueless, but generally its not like RNG as a whole is easy to remove or should be removed completely anyway.

 

greetings

Edited December 27, 2017 by Xydeth

[Volinus7]

If it can make you feel stupid but also reluctant to leave, it's a good skinner box. 

[Shaantituz]

19 hours ago, Xydeth said:

warframe is not the only game with rng. basically every game where u have droptables on enemies like path of exile for example or mmorpgs in general have this issue where ur either lucky or u wasted some hours. if u play exclusively for rewards one could ask u why...because the essence of playing a game should be >>>FUN<<<. yes sure u want some type of progress and reward, but on the counterside many games who have kind of weakened the RNG issue reward some kind of token or similar, which can then be traded over into what u actually want and for the most part these "tokens" or whatever its called in detail are not reward in too big amounts. u will "waste" time anyway, like most forms of entertainment. i dont wanna say that warframes RNG and droprates are perfect, but when u get stuff too easily they lose value quickly and u lose long term progress/motivation, unless u enjoy running endurance runs just for the fun. ur complaints are not directed at warframe alone no matter how u formulate it, ur generally complaining about RNG drops in games, of which there are still enough. RNG is not as outdated as u say and those games who dont have literal drop tables have really high costs on craftig materials for example or whatever is required to get what u want, especially f2p titles, since they want to encourage purchases of peremium currency. u will always have to deal with a variation of either of those. the games who give u stuff too quickly one way or another dont make it for a very long time, simply because players wont have much to do at some point without any progress left. the balance is important, not removing RNG completely imo. i agree on incremental rewards because some drops are just silly valueless, but generally its not like RNG as a whole is easy to remove or should be removed completely anyway.

Man this is hard to read but you didn't read my post so fair is fair. I didn't say the RNG was the problem. The problem is you are not rewarded for doing harder content. RNG is part of these games thats fine. But why would I do harder content if there is no reason to. The follow on is if there is no reason to do hard content, then there is no reason to get any gear...because I can already smash easy content...that has the rewards.

[A7xConnor]

1 hour ago, Shaantituz said:

Man this is hard to read but you didn't read my post so fair is fair. I didn't say the RNG was the problem. The problem is you are not rewarded for doing harder content. RNG is part of these games thats fine. But why would I do harder content if there is no reason to. The follow on is if there is no reason to do hard content, then there is no reason to get any gear...because I can already smash easy content...that has the rewards.

You can only get the 400 endo rewards on the higher tier missions, as well as the biggest credit caches, some gold mods, much better relic distribution (look at Xini, 70% chance for Neo relic on rotation A and 100% chance on rotation B and C for Axi relics) so you do get better rewards in my opinion, if that is "good enough" for each player is up to them to think.

But as some others have said if you're playing just for the rewards then that's probably your problem. I do the higher tier missions like Selkie Sedna survival, Kuva fort survival, Void Mot etc because I find them more enjoyable to play, the "side effect" of getting relics and decent endo amounts is just a bonus.

Edited December 27, 2017 by A7xConnor

[Xolgys]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Shaantituz:

Man this is hard to read but you didn't read my post so fair is fair. I didn't say the RNG was the problem. The problem is you are not rewarded for doing harder content. RNG is part of these games thats fine. But why would I do harder content if there is no reason to. The follow on is if there is no reason to do hard content, then there is no reason to get any gear...because I can already smash easy content...that has the rewards.

yes, its not just the RNG, but the RNG is part of it still because as long as u give something a drop table then useless stuff can potentially drop. would be a different matter if they implemented multiple droptables for endless, like after a certain minute the RNG pulls stuff from a totally different drop table which doesnt have usless or at least unreasonable stuff depending on how far ur in the game. even incremental rewards dont neccessarily solve it depending on how its done and my point was exactly that potentiall RNG can always make ur effort wasted. i get ur point, its not a new topic that endless runs dont have any "real" argument drop wise, but to me ur point didnt just target endless but generally RNG systems which decide to not give out the drop u want when u run a game.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Shaantituz:

[...]The other issue with the loot system is that it is just RNG, there is no incremental reward. The devs need to look at every other game in this or similar genres and realize this methodology is dead. The issue with just an RNG system is if I farm for 4 hours and don't get the mod I am after I get nothing. I may as well just not have played for 4 hours. Every other game has realized this and added some incremental advancement to reward you for time spent.  I think focus was meant to fill this role but it is just so bad, no one cares.[...]

so i think i did read ur post quite fine, maybe u expressed it in a way i misunderstood, i dont know, or its just me, but to me it definitely sounded like u generally had an issue with RNG systems too, not just the incremental issue.

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Xydeth

[Shaantituz]

20 hours ago, A7xConnor said:

You can only get the 400 endo rewards on the higher tier missions, as well as the biggest credit caches, some gold mods, much better relic distribution (look at Xini, 70% chance for Neo relic on rotation A and 100% chance on rotation B and C for Axi relics) so you do get better rewards in my opinion, if that is "good enough" for each player is up to them to think.

If you play much at all none of these are important, I have statues all over my ship so endo is irrelevant, there are no rewards left from the relics and I have more credits than I know what to do with from dark sector extraction farming. But seriously, these are examples of good rewards? I got a 400plat mod from spamming an acolyte on a level 20 map. With this I can buy anything from the relics I want. I got a 90 plat mod from spamming naeglar caches. Seriously white knighters please stop. I did say I thought the game was good, all I want is loot quality to be based on the difficulty of the mission. Is that really that complex to understand. Give me a solid point of view on why harder missions shouldn't have better rewards, and I will stop.

 

19 hours ago, Xydeth said:

so i think i did read ur post quite fine, maybe u expressed it in a way i misunderstood, i dont know, or its just me, but to me it definitely sounded like u generally had an issue with RNG systems too, not just the incremental issue.

I clearly said having RNG is fine, what I pointed out is that having only RNG rewards is bad (I used the word just in my post check the part you quoted it is there). The indisputable fact is that DE knows this, they added focus to address this. In fact if well implemented focus would have made my argument on this particular point invalid from the start.

 

 

[A7xConnor]

10 minutes ago, Shaantituz said:

If you play much at all none of these are important, I have statues all over my ship so endo is irrelevant, there are no rewards left from the relics and I have more credits than I know what to do with from dark sector extraction farming. But seriously, these are examples of good rewards? I got a 400plat mod from spamming an acolyte on a level 20 map. With this I can buy anything from the relics I want. I got a 90 plat mod from spamming naeglar caches. Seriously white knighters please stop. I did say I thought the game was good, all I want is loot quality to be based on the difficulty of the mission. Is that really that complex to understand. Give me a solid point of view on why harder missions shouldn't have better rewards, and I will stop.

 "if that is "good enough" for each player is up to them to think."

Your initial implication was that the rewards do not imrpove/get better, I was arguing that they indeed do. Not that they are "good" in general. I have over 100 statues just on my ship, around 80 filled in my inventory/not placed, sold a few as well and have over 1mil endo, every prime item in the game etc, so yes I've played for a whie. I personally still like getting a lot of endo/relics from running missions for a while. You can't infinitely get better and better things or improve forever.

And the worth of something like a mod is usually dictated from the players themselves and how much demand there is for it, personally I never using maiming strike, I hate the function of spamming nothing but slide attacks over and over, I find it boring. I think the dual stat electric mods you get from Eris have a much wider use and are more useful overall. Maiming strike is just an easy and quick power play. Demand/price =/= good.

If you don't want people to post different opinions from you then you probably shouldn't post your opinions in a public fashion or a forum open for people to reply to, so calling people "white knighters" and telling them to stop outright is just ridiculous, we're giving our responses and our opinions just like you are.

[mawdeeps]

the longer you stay in fissure missions you get better rewards like rising exp credit and drop boosters and free relics that are already improved also there's jon prodman

[Shaantituz]

22 hours ago, A7xConnor said:

Demand/price =/= good.

wtf..of course it does. Your personal opinion about liking something is irrelevant, its value is determined by the market. The majorities opinion on the quality/obtain-ability of an item will determine its price. Your statement implies in rare metal trading for example saying " I like silver more than gold, therefore silver is worth more than gold" is valid. Try trading like that on the markets. The only objective measure of how good a trade-able item is, is its market value. You yourself said exactly what I did, endo, relics and prime parts are so easily obtainable that their value is very small. So in effect here I used an objective measure for what is good (the market price) you just said "I like endo, I have more than I need but I like it"

Anyway, I am out. Once people base the value of things on what they "like" the battle is over. Emotional attachment does not mix with objective analysis. The real answer here was covered earlier. You may as well say, I like skinners box, but I am not sure why.

 

[BaronKreight]

yes u r right. Heres the root of the problem - developers dont value players time, they never did. And why should they when there are players with thousands of hours played? So unless they change their attitude loot system, power creep, etc wont change.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

On 12/27/2017 at 12:21 PM, Xydeth said:

warframe is not the only game with rng. basically every game where u have droptables on enemies like path of exile for example or mmorpgs in general have this issue where ur either lucky or u wasted some hours. if u play exclusively for rewards one could ask u why...because the essence of playing a game should be >>>FUN<<<. yes sure u want some type of progress and reward, but on the counterside many games who have kind of weakened the RNG issue reward some kind of token or similar, which can then be traded over into what u actually want and for the most part these "tokens" or whatever its called in detail are not reward in too big amounts. u will "waste" time anyway, like most forms of entertainment. i dont wanna say that warframes RNG and droprates are perfect, but when u get stuff too easily they lose value quickly and u lose long term progress/motivation, unless u enjoy running endurance runs just for the fun. ur complaints are not directed at warframe alone no matter how u formulate it, ur generally complaining about RNG drops in games, of which there are still enough. RNG is not as outdated as u say and those games who dont have literal drop tables have really high costs on craftig materials for example or whatever is required to get what u want, especially f2p titles, since they want to encourage purchases of peremium currency. u will always have to deal with a variation of either of those. the games who give u stuff too quickly one way or another dont make it for a very long time, simply because players wont have much to do at some point without any progress left. the balance is important, not removing RNG completely imo. i agree on incremental rewards because some drops are just silly valueless, but generally its not like RNG as a whole is easy to remove or should be removed completely anyway.

 

greetings

So everybody is forgetting this is a free to play game and that the dilution of drops, the option to leave the grind and buy with platinum (free btw if your game is tight)  is what got the game going?

[Xolgys]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb (PS4)fullblast35:

So everybody is forgetting this is a free to play game and that the dilution of drops, the option to leave the grind and buy with platinum (free btw if your game is tight)  is what got the game going?

 

what exactly would that have to do with improving a drop system ? its not like anyone here suggests to get stuff for free. exactly that topic is included in my post you quoted ->rarity equals value differences. it should still be logic droptable wise hence the suggestion of incremental rewards to scale drops with mission difficulty/time on applicable missions.