PoE destroyed Chroma

[NV1337]

Just now, ThorienKELL said:

I understand your sentiment, but you must agree that chroma, although powerful was bit bland to play and all that power was mostly in vain anyways, for true endgame content having to wait to recast your 2/3 was an issue, and frame was far from perfect. 

I would agree to chroma rework and slight nerf anytime - if they improved on his powers, made better synergies and improved his 1 and 4 and damage scalability. Even if he loses 50% of damage 250% bonus will still be enough to 2-shoot eidolon limb and destroy everything that game throws at you with melee, no matter of level. 

Thank you for being well mannered. But to start off there are so many ways that they could have reworked chroma without pissing off half of the chroma lovers. The same applies for Ember. I hate the fact that chroma's kit doesn't synergize well. All they had to do was make spectral scream scale with vex which they did do but then they nerfed vex. Also the only real problem for chroma was his effigy.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb kuciol:

Devs confirmed it on stream.

Formular (Boosts now apply before upgrades instead of after) says otherwise. Which is Base dmg * (Vex Armor + Mods) instead. Being additive instead of multiplicative is an EXTREME nerf. All that needed to be done was to fix the bug of increasing the damage to the extreme when using elemental combos.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ---Quill-Onkko--- said:

and with chroma i can dedicate multiple mods to fire rate letting me 1shot everything in site.

That's just you, isn't it?

-----------

Anyway, Chroma's nerf was gonna come ever since they discovered the squared scaling. It is obvious DE didn't intend for silly builds that 1 to 2 shot everything.

I would be salty, but really, there is no point since I didn't invest Forma into Chroma. So what he is a strong frame, I am patient enough to wait for Prime.

But end of the day, the new formula is just horrible. It would still be bearable if it multiplied everything by the percentage, but scaling base damage additively with serration/hornet strike/point blank is just horrible as it will give a much smaller number than it should.

Just remove the squared damage on combined elements.

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Formular (Boosts now apply before upgrades instead of after) says otherwise. Which is Base dmg * (Vex Armor + Mods) instead. Being additive instead of multiplicative is an EXTREME nerf. All that needed to be done was to fix the bug of increasing the damage to the extreme when using elemental combos.

And that way he will work the same way as Octavia for example but his % will be a lot higher. Point still stands, strongest dmg buff in game.

[arch111]

So glad I havent played Chroma yet.

Instead I play Banshee, Inaros, Oberon, Saryn, Mag, Nova, Mirage and Nekros.

With some Loki in there somewhere.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb kuciol:

And that way he will work the same way as Octavia for example but his % will be a lot higher. Point still stands, strongest dmg buff in game.

Vex armor damage buff at base is 175% when fully charged. Amp at base has 200% at max. So that alone proves you wrong. And amp literally just gets casted into an area and buffs everyone. No need to hug a chroma or to take damage for it.

Furthermore, sonar exists which buffs way harder and actually works off your final damage. And then there's nova, doubling your damage and slowing enemies down without needing power strength mods. In order for vex armor or amp to double your damage. Meanwhile with octavia amp, in order to double my damage, despite showing an increase of 4.78x, i need around 245% power strength. That is either 3 mod slots wasted or 2 mod slots -duration and lots of efficiency.

So yeah, useless. And the armor buff will get nerfed too because apparently the armor was at fault as well for oneshotting eidolons i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited February 4, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Vex armor damage buff at base is 175% when fully charged. Amp at base has 200% at max. So that alone proves you wrong. And amp literally just gets casted into an area and buffs everyone. No need to hug a chroma or to take damage for it.

Okay but Octavia is a fairly new frame. I think most of us suspects by now that when DE takes a look at her, she's in for some nerfing as well. 'Coz she is, let's just say, really useful in her current state.

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Vex armor damage buff at base is 175% when fully charged. Amp at base has 200% at max. So that alone proves you wrong. And amp literally just gets casted into an area and buffs everyone. No need to hug a chroma or to take damage for it.

Furthermore, sonar exists which buffs way harder and actually works off your final damage. And then there's nova, doubling your damage and slowing enemies down without needing power strength mods. In order for vex armor or amp to double your damage. Meanwhile with octavia amp, in order to double my damage, despite showing an increase of 4.78x, i need around 245% power strength. That is either 3 mod slots wasted or 2 mod slots -duration and lots of efficiency.

So yeah, useless. And the armor buff will get nerfed too because apparently the armor was at fault as well for oneshotting eidolons i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It doesnt prove anything dude. Quick look at wiki states that you can get more from vex armor than from amp. Secondly novas mprime and banshees sonar are not dmg buff, they are debuff meaning they are more a kin to bane mods than dmg mods.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 1 Minute schrieb kuciol:

It doesnt prove anything dude. Quick look at wiki states that you can get more from vex armor than from amp. Secondly novas mprime and banshees sonar are not dmg buff, they are debuff meaning they are more a kin to bane mods than dmg mods.

Yeah nvm it, so much for "consistency". My bad. Damage mult of 2x is less than damage increase of +175%. Apologize for that misinformation.

Anyway, my point was to show how weak these damage buffs work due to only increasing base damage. But without further ado, i'll show you some actual proofs now using my akbolto prime:

Standard shot:

Spoiler

Apparent but straight up misleading 598% AMP damage buff (299% power strength):

Spoiler

Actual and realistic 149% damage increase roar (299% power strength as well):

Spoiler

So if anything, roar will stay the best due to not only working as it SHOULD but also due to being simplistic in just pressing a button and everyone around you has a buff for a set duration, without needing to be stickied into a place.

Now, if you still don't understand the ridicule that lies behind this additive damage buff formular, do me a favor and pull out your mesa, activate shooting gallery and laugh at the almost nonexistant damage buff thanks to this.

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Yeah nvm it, so much for "consistency". My bad. Damage mult of 2x is less than damage increase of +175%. Apologize for that misinformation.

Anyway, my point was to show how weak these damage buffs work due to only increasing base damage. But without further ado, i'll show you some actual proofs now using my akbolto prime:

Standard shot:

  Hide contents

Apparent but straight up misleading 598% AMP damage buff (299% power strength):

  Hide contents

Actual and realistic 149% damage increase roar (299% power strength as well):

  Hide contents

So if anything, roar will stay the best due to not only working as it SHOULD but also due to being simplistic in just pressing a button and everyone around you has a buff for a set duration, without needing to be stickied into a place.

Now, if you still don't understand the ridicule that lies behind this additive damage buff formular, do me a favor and pull out your mesa, activate shooting gallery and laugh at the almost nonexistant damage buff thanks to this.

Thats how they are supposed to work. You must understand that with new eidolons on the way and new landscape with hopefully its own boss they had to adress that issue. Chroma with its insane buff limited design space. I just did a quick test with Rhino and Chroma with 180% power and Lenz, rhino did hit for 6,7k while chroma wooping 98k. With such insane dmg boost anything will die in seconds, if they adjust it for chroma han nobody else will be able to kill it. If they will adjust the buff of chroma to lets say 9k dmg with my example this will be acceptable.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 1 Minute schrieb kuciol:

Thats how they are supposed to work. You must understand that with new eidolons on the way and new landscape with hopefully its own boss they had to adress that issue. Chroma with its insane buff limited design space. I just did a quick test with Rhino and Chroma with 180% power and Lenz, rhino did hit for 6,7k while chroma wooping 98k. With such insane dmg boost anything will die in seconds, if they adjust it for chroma han nobody else will be able to kill it. If they will adjust the buff of chroma to lets say 9k dmg with my example this will be acceptable.

And this is what most people get wrong. You do whooping 98k because currently chromas damage is BUGGED. It gives you absurdly stupid damage numbers when using ELEMENTAL COMBOS. That's a bug and needs fixed, i'm not even arguing against that. But now, to get a better understanding of what i mean: Do the same testing with both frames and a weapon with only 1 elemental. Electro, Toxin, Heat or Cold doesn't matter. But make sure it has no elemental combo. And then you will see, damage numbers work as intended.

Bug needs fixed, yes. Formular does NOT. It only makes things unnecessarily 1. Nonsense and 2. Weak as hell.

[rune_me]

10 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Yeah nvm it, so much for "consistency". My bad. Damage mult of 2x is less than damage increase of +175%. Apologize for that misinformation.

Anyway, my point was to show how weak these damage buffs work due to only increasing base damage. But without further ado, i'll show you some actual proofs now using my akbolto prime:

Standard shot:

  Hide contents

Apparent but straight up misleading 598% AMP damage buff (299% power strength):

  Hide contents

Actual and realistic 149% damage increase roar (299% power strength as well):

  Hide contents

So if anything, roar will stay the best due to not only working as it SHOULD but also due to being simplistic in just pressing a button and everyone around you has a buff for a set duration, without needing to be stickied into a place.

Now, if you still don't understand the ridicule that lies behind this additive damage buff formular, do me a favor and pull out your mesa, activate shooting gallery and laugh at the almost nonexistant damage buff thanks to this.

Doesn't look that weak. Both are at 299% power strength. One does about 1500 points more damage. Seems you get about the same for the same power strength.

[NV1337]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Thats how they are supposed to work. You must understand that with new eidolons on the way and new landscape with hopefully its own boss they had to adress that issue. Chroma with its insane buff limited design space. I just did a quick test with Rhino and Chroma with 180% power and Lenz, rhino did hit for 6,7k while chroma wooping 98k. With such insane dmg boost anything will die in seconds, if they adjust it for chroma han nobody else will be able to kill it. If they will adjust the buff of chroma to lets say 9k dmg with my example this will be acceptable.

I will disagree with this. Pretty much anyone with a lanka and a decent lank riven can solo kill an eidolon. Chroma is not needed for eidolon hunts at all. My problem is that they decided to nerf chroma because he was too popular in the eidolon hunts and apparently is the so called only frame that can one shot eidolon. cough bullsht cough. If they are going to nerf vex armor bring up a better argument than oh he one shots eidolons hurr durr lets nerf his only viable ability that makes him unique hurr durr.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb rune_me:

Doesn't look that weak. Both are at 299% power strength. One does about 1500 points more damage. Seems you get about the same for the same power strength.

So you're saying that telling me 598% damage increase when it's actually just 120% is fine and the way it should work? Tone the numbers down if needed but make it be multiplicative instead of misleading.

[rune_me]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

So you're saying that telling me 598% damage increase when it's actually just 120% is fine and the way it should work? Tone the numbers down if needed but make it be multiplicative instead of misleading.

I just said that the same power strength gives about the same damage bonus. You seem to be hung up on the % statistic rather than the actual outcome. Yes 598% sounds higher than 120%. Just ignore those numbers if they bother you so much, and focus on the damage you are actually doing in the game. In which case they seem fairly identical.

[IceColdHawk]

Gerade eben schrieb rune_me:

I just said that the same power strength gives about the same damage bonus. You seem to be hung up on the % statistic rather than the actual outcome. Yes 598% sounds higher than 120%. Just ignore those numbers if they bother you so much, and focus on the damage you are actually doing in the game. In which case they seem fairly identical.

It's still an extreme and imho undeserved nerf my mate. The elemental combo bug aside and pretending it never existed, the damage output from chroma gets approximately a THIRD of what it previously could. And the armor should be affected as well considering the formular works for vex armor and not for fury exclusively. And now let this sink in for a while. It's not just the whole mathematical failure in this game that bothers me but also the fact that chroma will be almost COMPLETELY useless. The only thing he can do is TANKING and DISHING DAMAGE. And both of these get nerfed to hell and back. It's not like rhino who can have a scaling iron skin or a super powerful long range CC or like octavia who also has team invisibility, multiple buffs for the whole team as well, scaling damage against enemies and also CC that disables enemies from attacking (resonator). Effigy still stays untouched and useless. Spectral Scream will do more damage and allows you to shoot but really? Is this an argument to pick chroma over anyone else after this?

To give you a further idea of what's about to happen, read this from a dear forum member (gotta abuse you for a sec, sorry):

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Xzorn:

He's getting a massive nerf.

Currently Vex works as (Base * (Serration + Heavy Cal/Riven) * Vex. The same is true for his armor. Base * (Steel Fiber + Ice Ward) * Vex.

Now the value for both is Base * (Mod + Mod/Ward + Vex)

Chroma has always worked this way. What they broke a while back was a Power Strength conflict with Vex armor where the numerical bonus at high enough values would flip back to 0 or negative values. When they fixed this they cause other problems including the Vex multiplier double dipping into weapons with base combination Elemental types like Radiation well as DoT effects like Bleeds. This was a global bug they caused for the sake of Chroma but it also affected Rhino since his damage buff works exactly the same with Roar which has also been a Multiplicative buff since his release nearly 5 years ago.

So in short they caused a bug which they are fixing but blaming said bug for the reason to nerf the way Vex has always functioned.

To give you an idea of how this change will impact Chroma this is an eHp calc of Chroma currently and after the proposed changes.

-Old-
344% Power Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 5.16) = 2,541
2,541 * 12.04 = 30,593.64 = 0.99028
960 / (1- 0.99028) = 98,859.65 eHP

-New-
344% Power Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 5.16 + 12.04) = 6,755 = 0.957477
960 / (1- 0.957477) = 22,576.02 eHP

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, NV1337 said:

I will disagree with this. Pretty much anyone with a lanka and a decent lank riven can solo kill an eidolon. Chroma is not needed for eidolon hunts at all. My problem is that they decided to nerf chroma because he was too popular in the eidolon hunts and apparently is the so called only frame that can one shot eidolon. cough bullsht cough. If they are going to nerf vex armor bring up a better argument than oh he one shots eidolons hurr durr lets nerf his only viable ability that makes him unique hurr durr.

The problem is that with chroma you didnt need "lanka with a riven". Than there are new ones that will be a lot harder to kill, lanka wont be enough but Chroma will still one shot them. Do you get it now?

 

7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

So you're saying that telling me 598% damage increase when it's actually just 120% is fine and the way it should work? Tone the numbers down if needed but make it be multiplicative instead of misleading.

Yes its fine and thats how it should work. Thats how DE intended it to be, they f up, you got spoiled by being OP end of story.

[IceColdHawk]

Gerade eben schrieb kuciol:

Yes its fine and thats how it should work. Thats how DE intended it to be, they f up, you got spoiled by being OP end of story.

Who are you to tell me "end of story"? If you don't want to discuss or want actual logic and balance in this game, feel free to leave this thread. Thank you.

[MrInubis]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

Who are you to tell me "end of story"? If you don't want to discuss or want actual logic and balance in this game, feel free to leave this thread. Thank you.

Sorry but thats really how it is.

1) DE intended it to be additive

2) They F up and made it multiplicative, than they F up because they kept it that long

3) You "tasted" that power and now you cant imagine not having it

Is any of this incorrect?

By some reason you also think that frames like Octavia (the only frame i consider OP btw) wont be changed. For me its just a matter of time until they get to her. They simply cant address everything at once. Her time will come, along with banshees sonar, mesas peacemaker and so on.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb NV1337:

My main complaint about this nerf for chroma is that you gave the playerbase 3 FCKING YEARS to get adjusted to his damage which really isn't too unique since banshee can reach or if not surpass that much damage. For 3 years chroma users have become used to his mechanics and his abilities and it was great he did really well in end game since his damage and armor scales really well to match up against the insane armor scaling for enemies. Now during these 3 years people invested time and forma into chroma because the loved his design and playstyle and all of a sudden DE comes along and be like hurr durr Chroma does too well against our eidolons. Let's not buff the eidolons or add a new mechanic to the eidolon to counter some of chroma's damage but no lets fck up chroma's only useful ability cuz hurr durr and then rework him when we have to do prime access and nerf him into sht after that prime access. This is not the first time DE has done this, but this is the first time DE nerfs a character that players had 3 years of getting used to. This is just absurd.

Well, yeah. Dunno what to say about this either. The last sentence sums the situation up pretty well. If they wanted eidolons to not get oneshot, they could have just implemented a damage cap. But instead, they make players move over to the next best DPS buffer. Just shaking my head at the moment.

[NV1337]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

The problem is that with chroma you didnt need "lanka with a riven". Than there are new ones that will be a lot harder to kill, lanka wont be enough but Chroma will still one shot them. Do you get it now?

 

Yes its fine and thats how it should work. Thats how DE intended it to be, they f up, you got spoiled by being OP end of story.

What is with the "Do you get it now?" first off why is it a bad thing for DE to put more effort into boss fights? Isn't it better for DE to invest more time and effort to craft a boss that can give chroma difficulty to deal with. Also my point with the riven thing was that chroma isn't too necessary for eidolon hunts and that his damage is nothing unique as it can be surpassed by a banshee. DE's main reason why they are nerfing chroma is because of the eidolont hunts. Does this not go to show you that DE does not care about the rest of the game but instead cares only about their stupid plains of eidolon that still doesn't give players the incentive to play in other than oh kill eidolons for focus points or what not. Shouldn't be focused on fixing fundamental problems within their game like I don't know the insane armor scaling and some of the bugs within the games. I get that DE wants to focus on open world and all but there are some fundamental problems that needs to be fixed. Eidolons can be considered end game content for the game but nerfing a character that still holds use outside of the plains just because they couldn't A.) buff the eidolon. B.) add a mechanic to the eidolon where he can only take a certain amount of damage to his limbs. This isn't fcking rocket science. Instead of continuously focusing on new content DE must fix some fundamental problems within the game I think rahetalius made a video on this. The audacity of DE to just nerf chroma all of a sudden after 3 years just because their eidolon can get one shotted per limb just because of chroma is just insane and degrades my confidence in them as developers.

[Orblit]

Seemed more a case of, was planned to make the damage increase happen pre-mods, but somehow, in some way...forgot.  Then came teralysts and the increased usage of chroma was like, "Hey...remember that balancing you were gonna do?"

[NV1337]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Sorry but thats really how it is.

1) DE intended it to be additive

2) They F up and made it multiplicative, than they F up because they kept it that long

3) You "tasted" that power and now you cant imagine not having it

Is any of this incorrect?

By some reason you also think that frames like Octavia (the only frame i consider OP btw) wont be changed. For me its just a matter of time until they get to her. They simply cant address everything at once. Her time will come, along with banshees sonar, mesas peacemaker and so on.

Your 3rd point is basically human nature in general. Don't deny it. It is basic human nature that once they get used to something for example chroma's damage for 3 years then of course they will feel afraid of losing that power they had for 3 years. It is in the very nature of humans to fear change. If they had changed chroma's vex armor a couple months after his release no one would have complained. But they gave us 3 years to get used to and now all of a sudden they are taking away the power we grew to love and adapt to. This is a game that encourages power fantasy and yet the very developers of this game are taking away the power fantasy away from chroma lovers. OF COURSE WE ARE FEARFUL!!! This is a mechanic that we have grown used to for 3 years and now they are going to take this away because hurr durr we can't figure out a way to make sure chroma can't one shot eidolons.

[NV1337]

1 minute ago, Orblit said:

Seemed more a case of, was planned to make the damage increase happen pre-mods, but somehow, in some way...forgot.  Then came teralysts and the increased usage of chroma was like, "Hey...remember that balancing you were gonna do?"

exactly my point. I even wrote this i think on the 3rd page.

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, NV1337 said:

What is with the "Do you get it now?" first off why is it a bad thing for DE to put more effort into boss fights? Isn't it better for DE to invest more time and effort to craft a boss that can give chroma difficulty to deal with. Also my point with the riven thing was that chroma isn't too necessary for eidolon hunts and that his damage is nothing unique as it can be surpassed by a banshee. DE's main reason why they are nerfing chroma is because of the eidolont hunts. Does this not go to show you that DE does not care about the rest of the game but instead cares only about their stupid plains of eidolon that still doesn't give players the incentive to play in other than oh kill eidolons for focus points or what not. Shouldn't be focused on fixing fundamental problems within their game like I don't know the insane armor scaling and some of the bugs within the games. I get that DE wants to focus on open world and all but there are some fundamental problems that needs to be fixed. Eidolons can be considered end game content for the game but nerfing a character that still holds use outside of the plains just because they couldn't A.) buff the eidolon. B.) add a mechanic to the eidolon where he can only take a certain amount of damage to his limbs. This isn't fcking rocket science. Instead of continuously focusing on new content DE must fix some fundamental problems within the game I think rahetalius made a video on this. The audacity of DE to just nerf chroma all of a sudden after 3 years just because their eidolon can get one shotted per limb just because of chroma is just insane and degrades my confidence in them as developers.

They just started doing that. They cant rebuild whole game at once. They are adjusting frames now , than dmg 2,5 will come out with dmg 3.0 (elemental changes) later. Who knows maybe they will focus on enemy scaling after that? We cant know that, i bet even they dont know what they will do next.