Too Much Rng...

[whitejackale]

The game will not be fun for long if there is no difficult endgame content available to players, especially if they are not rewarded appropriately for beating said difficult content. Currently the game rewards everyone based on simply playing through easy content that rewards you for getting lucky with the rng, and that is really not fun for long for the majority of players.

[Brimir]

No the Monster Hunter comparison does not apply to mods. I have no beef with the crafting system and RNG involved in crafting ingredients. This is about mods only. The only way we could compare it to MH would be if certain mods only dropped on certain maps (or bosses); so that they could be farmed like the Monster of MH. But that is not how it is. Mod drop table is faction-wide and has to compete with cross-faction mods. This makes them far too random for to make the comparison to MH accurate.

 

P.S Not to toot my own horn here, but I can pretty much solo every Monster in the second generation naked -  and the difficulty was seriously lowered for the third generation. Deviljo is a kitten once you got his pattern down. MH is as much (if not more) a game about twitch reactions and memorizing Monster patterns. There are crazy Asian people (the franchise is bigger than Pokemon ever was in Asia) that can solo things naked while only playing notes on a Hunting Horn, using the animations for changing notes to dodge and attack!

[Bakercompany86]

The game will not be fun for long if there is no difficult endgame content available to players, especially if they are not rewarded appropriately for beating said difficult content. Currently the game rewards everyone based on simply playing through easy content that rewards you for getting lucky with the rng, and that is really not fun for long for the majority of players.

 

 

You are right.  This game currently only rewards play time.  Nothing else.

 

Not skill, not creativity, none of the above.  Just playtime.

 

This is why I hate grindy games.  MMOs do the same thing, but they are designed around that principle to make it work.

 

Warframe is a farcry from an MMO, and this system will not work.  The game will die if it isn't changed.  And only the elitists will remain.

[philleapa]

Little bit of farming?  This game is entirely based on farming and grinding....it IS Warframe.

 

Mostly yes it is a lot about farming and grinding but no way near as other games, the only thing you have to farm for are mods and Blueprints, i don't consider looking for resources farming as there are certain missions that you can go there easily get all the resources start the mission go to wave 5 and then leave and do it again (defense mission with the new update) it is so much easier to get resources now than it was earlier.

[Brimir]

Erhm, sorry mate, but it is all grinding.

 

 

Take out the mod grind.

 

Take out the blueprint grind.

 

Take out the resource grind.

 

And perhaps most vital:

 

Take out the affinity grind.

 

What is left of the game, then?

Edited August 8, 2013 by Brimir

[Bakercompany86]

Mostly yes it is a lot about farming and grinding but no way near as other games, the only thing you have to farm for are mods and Blueprints, i don't consider looking for resources farming as there are certain missions that you can go there easily get all the resources start the mission go to wave 5 and then leave and do it again (defense mission with the new update) it is so much easier to get resources now than it was earlier.

 

I think it's way too much for this type of game.

 

This is a 3rd person shooter, after all.  They've turned it into some weird MMORPG/Shooter/Brawler Frankengame.

[Xorpheus]

I think the way the topic was presented has created some hostile S#&$, but for sure there are some time vs reward problems in this game, things simply have not been allocated into brackets, killing a higher level doesn't mean getting a better reward, or even a chance of it as far as I can tell, so currently its all about killing in high volume, which most 4 buttons do... I mean... This has been addressed by Steve on like 3 of 11 streams, and its supposedly Scott's number one on his To-do list, so its being redone. However when loot tables and assigning items to tiers or scaling rng with difficulty.... Whatever they are doing for the next few updates I have faith. The fact that they just kept adding items to a big pool that goes game wide basically is why every one is &!$$ed. If they "Fix" loot tables, and it still takes me 47 runs to get a seer pistol well then I might rant but right now though its just whatever, it was expected and probably pushed to the back to bring all the other content they have, so they are addressing it. I do have high hopes for them to do it well. I bet its going to come in with the trading patch. =P

Edited August 8, 2013 by Xorpheus

[Blatantfool]

DE is currently aware that the RNG for Mod drops right now is undesirable.

 

 I don't have an ETA to give you on when we'll see the changes but I do know they are on the way.

 

 The RNG will be changed.

[Bakercompany86]

DE is currently aware that the RNG for Mod drops right now is undesirable.

 

 I don't have an ETA to give you on when we'll see the changes but I do know they are on the way.

 

 The RNG will be changed.

 

 

These are the things this community needs to hear.

 

 

Thank you. *Thread Closed*

[direcyphre]

You may not think so, but as someone who has hundreds of hours in both those games and this, it basically the same. just be thankful we don't need multiple Split Chambers to make one good one. The comparison still holds true regardless of your lack of counterpoints: Mods drop from certain factions, pick whatever mission you like. Currently the best yields are defense due to the number of enemies and concentration, as well as the ability to keep going to higher waves for more of a challenge.

 

The whole point to Monster hunter is mastering the moveset of all monsters; the rest is farming. It's nice you think you've beat that game so soundly, but you still sound as though you never farmed upper tier Tri to know what farming truly is.

 

Grindy game? Obviously. Any game that warrants more than a hundred hours of playtime is pure grinding. It doesn't matter what game or genre. MMOs are no different, because the end-game are raids where you get better and better equipment. Difference is, those are boring tab-targeted clickfests and require no skill whatsoever. If it wasn't for this constant search for purple rares and whatever fancy weapon you're after, what else would you game for? Hate to break it to you, but this game differs in no way from any other MMO out there when it comes to End Game grinding.

[Brimir]

Thank the Lard!

 

Glad they realize it. Just to give everyone an example: I haven't used a primary weapon in ages.

 

Why?

 

Because the mods I have for my sidearm are just of such higher quality: that one Multishot mod I got (at random) puts any sidearm miles ahead of any primary I own. I've been hoping for a Multishot for my Hek for weeks now, but no luck...

 

 

 

The whole point to Monster hunter is mastering the moveset of all monsters; the rest is farming. It's nice you think you've beat that game so soundly, but you still sound as though you never farmed upper tier Tri to know what farming truly is.

 

Look, I've farmed MHFU G-rank quests - which is ten times the farm of your little Tri. Tri is easy-mode because the Monsters are nerfed through the ground and all weapons have gained new attack combos and functions. I don't want to sound like an elitist jerk here, but trust me when I say I know my Monster Hunter and the grind is not comparable simply because of how much more random Warframe's RNG is.

 

It would be like farming Rathian and not only having to worry about getting her rare parts but also have her share her loot pool with all other Monsters in the game; you could carve Yian Kut-Ku parts from her! And not only that, but the lesser Monsters' parts would take priority because they are less rare than Rathian's - just like how Blunderbuss is more plentiful than Hell's Chamber.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Brimir

[whitejackale]

 

Any game that warrants more than a hundred hours of playtime is pure grinding. It doesn't matter what game or genre. MMOs are no different, because the end-game are raids where you get better and better equipment. Difference is, those are boring tab-targeted clickfests and require no skill whatsoever. 

Those boring tab-targeted clickfests require a lot more skill than any content that warframe currently has to offer.

[Bakercompany86]

Those boring tab-targeted clickfests require a lot more skill than any content that warframe currently has to offer.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

The real challenge in MMOs is how it tasks players to work as a group and use their abilities to succeed.  It's a very thin, basic way of doing it but it works because of the MMO atmosphere.  But this is also why MMOs all have that "mmo feeling" to them.

Warframe *could* involve a lot of skill, but suggest that on this forum and you'll be chased off with pitchforks and torches....

 

The Elitists want their grindfest so they can simply walk over content.

 

I find that weak, lame, and lazy.  We can give you an easy mode, but don't punish us for being better than you.

[SoulEchelon]

Monster Hunter? No way. In Monster Hunter you pick which Monster to fight and you only get parts from that Monster. To put them on the same level you would have to make every Monster in the game equally likeable of rewarding carves from all other Monsters as they are their own parts.  Imagine fighting Azure Rathian and getting Yian Kut-ku carves!

 

In Warframe, you fight a certain boss to obtain certain blueprints to craft specific warframes or weapons, while the environment and normal mobs give the lesser components to help craft these items. Sounds exactly like Monster Hunter in that regard. And Vindictus as well.

 

WoW/Neverwinter/Rift? No way. In this games you don't have to go out and hunt for your spells and abilities; they are unlocked as you level up. Those games are in no way on the same level as Warframe in that regard.

 

You automatically obtain all your abilities when you craft a new warframe. In order to actually use them however, you have to gain experience and "level up" so you have the mod capacity to equip them. Yup, sounds like just a different way to get to the same goal.

 

 

Note that I am not complaining about crafting in general. Crafting weapons and Warframes is fine (well, they could make Control Modules drop earlier to allow new players to ditch their starter Warframe earlier. Hyena is faaaaaar too far in to the game to be the first reliable source). It is only when it comes to mods it goes way, waaay too far.

 

They're still working on balancing out the mods and where they drop. I do agree there needs to be more to it, but currently there are certain places where certain mods drop. The different factions do have chances to drop certain rare mods. Problem is, this system isn't used as much as it should.

 

 

Those boring tab-targeted clickfests require a lot more skill than any content that warframe currently has to offer.

 

You're heavily over exaggerating, lying to try and further your own viewpoint, or you used the plat gained from your Founder status to bumrush and make the game incredibly easy. The fact that currently a ton of new players are actually having alot of trouble playing this game shoots your opinionated post into the ground.

Edited August 8, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Bakercompany86]

There are way too many MMO elements in this game for my taste.  I'd like to see some toned down and the rest removed.

[SoulEchelon]

There are way too many MMO elements in this game for my taste.  I'd like to see some toned down and the rest removed.

 

You do know this is an MMO game, right?

[Bakercompany86]

You do know this is an MMO game, right?

 

No it is not.

 

Massively Multiplayer Online describes persistent online worlds where hundreds of players exist within the same domain.

 

 

The most we can have in a game is 4 people.  This is not an mmo.  It is a squad based 3rd person shooter.

[SoulEchelon]

No it is not.

 

Massively Multiplayer Online describes persistent online worlds where hundreds of players exist within the same domain.

 

 

The most we can have in a game is 4 people.  This is not an mmo.  It is a squad based 3rd person shooter.

 

Wrong. Vindictus and Monster Hunter have the same formula you just stated, and they're both classified as "MMO". Just because the world isn't persistant doesn't mean it's not an MMO.

[Bakercompany86]

Wrong. Vindictus and Monster Hunter have the same formula you just stated, and they're both classified as "MMO". Just because the world isn't persistant doesn't mean it's not an MMO.

 

 

This is not an MMO....  There is no other way to say it.  Having 4 people in the game at one time is not an MMO.

 

By that logic, Battlefield is an MMO, Call of Duty is an MMO, or any game where lots of people are playing the game at the same time.

 

For your game to be "Massively Multiplayer" people have to exist in the same world, at the same time.  Otherwise it's just "multiplayer"

[SoulEchelon]

This is not an MMO....  There is no other way to say it.  Having 4 people in the game at one time is not an MMO.

 

By that logic, Battlefield is an MMO, Call of Duty is an MMO, or any game where lots of people are playing the game at the same time.

 

For your game to be "Massively Multiplayer" people have to exist in the same world, at the same time.  Otherwise it's just "multiplayer"

 

So I guess the huge solar system everything is situated within as well as the global chat isn't a world. Just like the village hubs in Monster Hunter, Vindictus, and Phantasy Star Online. Let's not forget guild halls being filled with people too, but in different instances when one instance is filled.

 

Massively Multiplayer Online Third Person Shooter is what Warframe is classified as. See, Warframe can be both. Arguing over a moot point is pedantic. Though frankly, I'd call Warframe a Dungeon Crawler, because that's exactly what we do.

Edited August 8, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Bakercompany86]

So any game with a global chat is automatically an MMO, noted.

[SoulEchelon]

So any game with a global chat is automatically an MMO, noted.

 

That's not what I said, but if you're going to be a child about it, sure.

[Bakercompany86]

That's not what I said, but if you're going to be a child about it, sure.

 

Not being a child.  You are simply wrong.  This is a 3rd person shooter.  You can only ever interact with up to 3 other Tenno at a time.  How on earth is that an MMO?  Global chat doesn't make this an MMO.  Again by that theory, every multiplayer PC game is an MMO...

 

"Warframe is a free-to-play cooperative third-person shooter video game, developed by Digital Extremes for Playstation 4 and Microsoft Windows. Players control a member of the Tenno, ancient warriors who have awoken from centuries of cryosleep to find themselves at war with the Grineer, a race of militarized humans, and the Corpus, a merchant guild. The Tenno use advanced armor with unique properties, called Warframes."

 

Genre:  Third-person shooter.

 

 

Warframe is a cooperative free-to-play online action game set in an evolving sci-fi world. Join your friends in player-vs-enemy raids across the solar system and master the power of the Warframes. Stand alone or fight together against enemies that threaten your world.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[SoulEchelon]

Not being a child.  You are simply wrong.  This is a 3rd person shooter.  You can only ever interact with up to 3 other Tenno at a time.  How on earth is that an MMO?  Global chat doesn't make this an MMO.  Again by that theory, every multiplayer PC game is an MMO...

 

"Warframe is a free-to-play cooperative third-person shooter video game, developed by Digital Extremes for Playstation 4 and Microsoft Windows. Players control a member of the Tenno, ancient warriors who have awoken from centuries of cryosleep to find themselves at war with the Grineer, a race of militarized humans, and the Corpus, a merchant guild. The Tenno use advanced armor with unique properties, called Warframes."

 

Genre:  Third-person shooter.

 

A third person shooter that's online, has a constant universe, and 2 million + players. Warframe has been labelled pretty much everything under the sun that has to do with being Massively Multiplayer, 3rd person shooter, and co-op based. A simple google search will have Warframe and MMO put together in almost every link, especially since (dur) there are MMO elements in this game.

 

Are you going to continue to argue over semantics like a child, or are you going to get back on topic? If it's the former, then I'll happily bow out. This really isn't worth arguing over.

Edited August 8, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[whitejackale]

Yes and no.

 

The real challenge in MMOs is how it tasks players to work as a group and use their abilities to succeed.  It's a very thin, basic way of doing it but it works because of the MMO atmosphere.  But this is also why MMOs all have that "mmo feeling" to them.

Warframe *could* involve a lot of skill, but suggest that on this forum and you'll be chased off with pitchforks and torches....

 

The Elitists want their grindfest so they can simply walk over content.

 

I find that weak, lame, and lazy.  We can give you an easy mode, but don't punish us for being better than you.

Endgame pve in mmorpgs usually involves a lot more than simply getting a group to work together. Endgame pve involves 4-40+ people getting together while each accomplishing the role of tanking, healing, dealing damage, using crowd control, and buffing. Each person needs to do their job correctly by using 5-20+ separate abilities while managing cooldowns and resources in order to be as optimal as possible at their chosen role. Not only that, but each player needs to make sure that they can deal with several different mechanics depending on the boss that they are fighting. Anyone failing to do their job properly while avoiding several mechanics can lead to death by mechanics, or death by the boss enraging because you took too long to kill it. So yes, mmorpg endgame content is definitely a lot more difficult than anything that warframe has to offer.

 

What is important is not that mmorpgs can offer much more difficult content than warframe, but rather that warframe has no real difficulty to offer. In mmorpgs, players progress through content while getting new gear and being exposed to new mechanics, which will later allow them to move on to even more difficult content that will offer new gear and mechanics, and so on.

 

Mmorpg endgame content, as well as the progression towards that endgame content, is something that warframe needs to emulate in order to be successful. And it needs to get away from rewarding players with an rng system that rewards them for endlessly grinding easy content.