Ash Feedback

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Altre:

I'll load up and give it a whirl. I would still like a video of enemies being blitzed through. Not while playing with support frames. I want to see him outkill other kill frames with his 1 in level 100 content.

Am 21.4.2018 um 07:08 schrieb Altre:

 

Ember and Equinox (mostly Equinox after a point) will do fine for many missions, actually, and either perform equal to or outperform Ash in groups.

 

There literally was a ember in the squad. I outperformed her in the level range she did fine. The one that came out second was the frost to my suprise.... tho it was mostly due to him spamming avalance. He got his damage buffed while restricting mine so it makes sense i guess. And i've mentioned it but i didn't even start to use him propperly. At no point did i really start using bladestorm in tandem, neather did i use melee propperly except for setting up the disc for status proccs feeding GP. All i did was filling the quota by killing enemys trough walls using shuriken in a level range between level 40 and 100

 

Am 21.4.2018 um 07:08 schrieb Altre:

 

Make a video of you "blitzing" through a mission from 40 up to level 100 with any group of medium damage output from.

On a build that can go way beyond this and that was the result. Me comming out first with zero issues using shuriken allmost exclusive. Outperforming two supported aoe damage dealers and a supporter with endless scaling aoe damage. Like it's gotta be his 4 that's carrying him in unrelevant levels. His 1 is able to do that perfectly fine.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Altre:

The idea of Ash is fun, the kit just doesn't feel cogent in game.

Just gonna throw my 2 cents there...you don't really care just how effective he is. How he's able to outperform quite a bit of frames with his 1 alone, how his 4 fits in seamless to perform well the more difficult the content gets. You simply don't find him fun and you're looking for reasons to justify a subjective view.

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Hello People... Consider the following change idea.

 

When a marked target is killed, the marks jump to a nearby (Nearest unmarked then Nearest target without max marks) target in a 50m radius. Jump requires line of sight, and if no targets nearby are viable, Mark is refunded as currently. Marks cannot spread beyond Ashes max Mark range.

 

This minor change allows marks to have a longer lasting effect, able to build up easier even with allies and Ash himself killing the enemies.

 

Enemies dying before a mark has a chance to have its effect is the most common issue with Bladestorm. the ability is too slow, and normal combat has enemies dying too fast. the only effective way is to quickly toggle the ability killing a handful of enemies.. This change allows Marks to simply jump to a new target, allowing them to remain effective and build bigger Bladestorms over wider areas..

Ash could even actively kill targets while marking to spread the marks a bit like Spores.

 

Still no 360 no scope, but it would be MUCH more effective in combat with a relatively minor change.

Edited June 14, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

Honestly, just make his invisibility recastable and i think Ash would be in a better place. . 

[Nazrethim]

hace 6 horas, (XB1)Godlike13 dijo:

Honestly, just make his invisibility recastable and i think Ash would be in a better place. . 

Also add:

-Clones are also invisible (it's pointless to destroy bodies if half the enemy army sees the clones and sounds the alarm)

-You can join BS by pressing 4 during it's execution phase, no longer applies to Teleport.

-Smoke Shadow leaves a lingering cloud allies can run into to get cloaked.

[DjKaplis]

Ash is still an amazing and very strong frame that doesn't need any changes right now. Some buffs are always welcome but honestly he doesn't need them. 

Wheelchair...lol, have you played him 😄

[ForsakenEcho]

On 2018-06-15 at 1:26 AM, DjKaplis said:

Ash is still an amazing and very strong frame that doesn't need any changes right now. Some buffs are always welcome but honestly he doesn't need them. 

Wheelchair...lol, have you played him 😄

have I played him. hmmm

[Natfrog123]

On 2018-06-14 at 11:26 AM, DjKaplis said:

Ash is still an amazing and very strong frame that doesn't need any changes right now. Some buffs are always welcome but honestly he doesn't need them. 

Wheelchair...lol, have you played him 😄

The problem isn't that we haven't played him. The problem is we play him A LOT. It isn't practical in this type of game to have a marking system (specifically on console) that is out preformed by numerous frames.... Especially now with the OP modding of "void weapons" or whatever they calling it. Love the new modding mechanic but it's horribly OP. I love OP don't get me wrong but make it across the board.

[Nazrethim]

En 14/6/2018 a las 12:26, DjKaplis dijo:

Ash is still an amazing and very strong frame that doesn't need any changes right now. Some buffs are always welcome but honestly he doesn't need them. 

Wheelchair...lol, have you played him 😄

The thread was made before the lastest buff.

At the time it was made Ash had:

Shuriken: no change, barely able to keep up and pointless to use beyond level 30s without the augment.

SScreen: a short invisibility with a nigh useless stagger and a nigh useless augment. At least it could be cast on the move at that point.

Teleport: augment 100% required. That's still true. Now it's worse because it's unusable while BS is active.

Blade Storm: at the time, it attacked enemies one by one taking forever to use the marks, while you were trapped in the cutscene. It also drained more energy the frame had capacity for on just 10-15 enemies, in a horde game. Nowadays the cost is lower (still keeps that pointless fake synergy with invisibility that only serves to bandaid a still too high cost), outperforms Shuriken, making the 1st ability pointless (unless augmented), makes teleport unusable while it's active (because for some stupid reason DE decided that using another ability to trigger an effect that another ability should have instead of using the same key that goes unused during execution) and still has a largely pointless multimarking system that just confuses the average player. As well as no visual indicator beyond a tiny number on the far corner of the screen to tell you "alright, you can use bs again".

Ash was pointless outside of fatal teleporting on Rathuum at the point this thread was made. BS was so sh*tty it was actually detrimental to use, you were better off using Fatal Teleports backt o back than using slowstorm.

[Natfrog123]

On 2018-06-11 at 4:40 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

There it is. Playing ash fast in a squad with a octavia, frost and a ember.

Please note that that's only playing him fast. I didn't even start to play him effective.

(Except for the effective support by dbuffing armor.)

I'd like to point out you started this recording at over 20 mins into game play. You went to just under 40 mins. You only had 550 kills? I can tell just by the ending there was not ONE single damage frame in your group. If you can call this effective then more power to you. I noticed you were off by yourself for over half of this video you showed us... That is not being in a group and it is not an issue to play solo with ash.

[RealPandemonium]

10 minutes ago, Natfrog123 said:

I'd like to point out you started this recording at over 20 mins into game play. You went to just under 40 mins. You only had 550 kills? I can tell just by the ending there was not ONE single damage frame in your group. If you can call this effective then more power to you. I noticed you were off by yourself for over half of this video you showed us... That is not being in a group and it is not an issue to play solo with ash.

Lol, so your argument is that it's not easy enough to steal kills with Ash?

[Nazrethim]

hace 2 minutos, RealPandemonium dijo:

Lol, so your argument is that it's not easy enough to steal kills with Ash?

No, his argument is that in the video Ash was pretty much doing Solo play with some people milling about. He wasn't competing with another killer frame. And the video just shows Ash on the ranges where Shurike is effective if you minmax to the extreme.  Basically the video isn't a proper test. The idea would be starting at lvl20s then go all the way to 100. With a party full of different DPS frames. Normal Onslaught at default stats (that is, no STR, Duration, Range or Efficiency mods used) nor Augments. Just to see how truly effective the frame is compared to others before minmaxing. Arcanes would be off the calculations too for obvious reasons.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Natfrog123:

I'd like to point out you started this recording at over 20 mins into game play. You went to just under 40 mins. You only had 550 kills? I can tell just by the ending there was not ONE single damage frame in your group. If you can call this effective then more power to you. I noticed you were off by yourself for over half of this video you showed us... That is not being in a group and it is not an issue to play solo with ash.

That's what the playstation is able to record and i've done pretty much nothing but shooting shurikens. Per quota in a specific level range. With, quote: "even half decent aoe frames" in the group.

Usually i also melee, use bladestorm and i'm thus far above what's shown there due to how it plays out with the armor drain. 

These results are due to nothing but outranging other frames. If you play him propperly, you outdamage them in such a level range too. By far.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

 And the video just shows Ash on the ranges where Shurike is effective if you minmax to the extreme.  

170% strength, 95% duration and 175% efficiency is min maxing to the extreme? ^^ never min maxed much did you.

Switched to 155% strength and speed drift in the meantime so it's become quite a bit more effective.

@RealPandemonium the joke is that it is... with a frame that's tuned to broken damage on anything else.

Edited July 7, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

hace 15 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

170% strength, 95% duration and 175% efficiency is min maxing to the extreme? ^^ never min maxed much did you.

I didn't remember the exact numbers you had (which I faintly remember you mentioned). I take back what I said.

And yes, I HAVE minmaxed, both in warframe and in other games.

hace 15 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Switched to 155% strength and speed drift in the meantime so it's become quite a bit more effective.

I recently switched to 9/10 umbral mods and Seeking Shuriken/Fatal Teleport (depending on mission).

Found something odd: sometimes SShuriken requires multiple casts to strip a target, even though my STR is well above the point SShuriken completely strips them. Possibly a bug. Have you encountered that?

 

Anyway. I'm not gonna go again on a long rant because I sound like a broken record by now, so I will just leave with the basic things that need to be adressed:

SShadow needs to make a lingering cloud allies can pick up or run into to get cloaking.

Fatal Teleport's automatic finisher should be by default

Rising Storm should be buffed to give 10s counter instead of the confusing "100%" (which is a pointless 3s)

And the 'join BS' should be activated by pressing the BS key during execution time instead of being on Teleport.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

 Have you encountered that?

I did, but usually when grouped with frosts... i'd blame it on freezes status restriction, couldn't state anything certain though.

[RealPandemonium]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

No, his argument is that in the video Ash was pretty much doing Solo play with some people milling about. He wasn't competing with another killer frame. And the video just shows Ash on the ranges where Shurike is effective if you minmax to the extreme.  Basically the video isn't a proper test. The idea would be starting at lvl20s then go all the way to 100. With a party full of different DPS frames. Normal Onslaught at default stats (that is, no STR, Duration, Range or Efficiency mods used) nor Augments. Just to see how truly effective the frame is compared to others before minmaxing. Arcanes would be off the calculations too for obvious reasons.

Regardless of the video, why does Ash need to compete with "killer frames?"  We don't need more 1-button room-killers in Warframe.  Especially not ones that ignore armor and shields and get huge multipliers on their damage.  

[Natfrog123]

18 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lol, so your argument is that it's not easy enough to steal kills with Ash?

My arguement is that in the video we have a solo Ash hitting for 300 damage and at time even less.... are we even sure he is killing? Ember had only 400 and some kills... is she even a "damage" frame if her kill count is THAT low? I mean we have to assume that a good AoE frame would have been much higher in kill count at low levels than that if it was in fact a damage built frame. The test is invalid. We don't have enough info about the group comp and their setups and if WoF was hitting tiny dots on enemies we couldn't see or if something else was in play. As for his number 1... of coarse it works. This isn't about if Ash CAN kill... it is 100% about the blockade of using his number 4 in practicle situations. Which with the marking system it is not ever to use it anywhere. Mesa's major buff she just got absolutely breaks her to being so OP it isn't funny. Don't be shocked when every game you see will start having a Mesa once people understand how to build her pistols.

I'd also like to point out you had a complete trash Octavia. Did you see that tiny range? This alone I'd say invalidates your claims as to a "good" AoE damage team. It almost to me seems like they were running no mods specifically to let you "get kills" for this video you have shown us.

I call your BS sir.

I noticed it also took a heavy gunner to deny you a kill before you ran away. If you were "melting" enemies with your number 1 why did you run? I'm sure the excuse is the bleeds would kill it but there in lies the problem. In an ACTUAL good group those things die before you can get your bleed on them in the first place.... even at 3 hour mark. 

Had a decent Octavia been in your group you would have stood no chance unless you are playing solo which again you were doing in this video. But like i said did you see her default range? I mean seriously did you think no one would notice?

Edited July 8, 2018 by Natfrog123

[Natfrog123]

20 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That's what the playstation is able to record and i've done pretty much nothing but shooting shurikens. Per quota in a specific level range. With, quote: "even half decent aoe frames" in the group.

Usually i also melee, use bladestorm and i'm thus far above what's shown there due to how it plays out with the armor drain. 

These results are due to nothing but outranging other frames. If you play him propperly, you outdamage them in such a level range too. By far.

Ok so I did the maths

In the last 8 mins and 10 seconds of the fight we see Kante999 get more kills than you in an area you say you "outdamage" all the other frames.

Kante get 79 kills to your 61.

Your damage decreases by 2% while Kantee999 raises by 2% in the final 8 mins. 

To me it seems everything but what you are suggesting. 

If this trend continues or they actually start trying... not sure which it is honestly... you would have been FAR outdamaged.

I mean I am only using the video YOU provided as a basis on your truth. Even when setup to succeed you manage to NOT prove your own point?

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Natfrog123:

Snip

 

Want me to make another 20 or so of those videos with different groups? I've outdamaged quite a few metas with nothing but shurikens.

Want me to share my current build so you can try it yourself?

Want me to actually go all out?

Note that absolutely nothing in this video even uses his kit. Me using his first frickin ability repeatedly drove you to overanalysing it, desperately looking for reasons just why everyone else fell behind.

That this one ability of his got the firerate and range of old and the damage of new WoF, with way better damage, damage type (slash stacks, fire does not) and armor disspell.... that it's on par with quite a few lazy metas all by itself while not restricting invisibility, teleports OR Bladestorm is probably closer to the truth. I didn't min max anything eather... this is a quite balanced build.

[Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Want me to make another 20 or so of those videos with different groups? I've outdamaged quite a few metas with nothing but shurikens.

Want me to share my current build so you can try it yourself?

Want me to actually go all out?

Note that absolutely nothing in this video even uses his kit. Me using his first frickin ability repeatedly drove you to overanalysing it, desperately looking for reasons just why everyone else fell behind.

That this one ability of his got the firerate and range of old and the damage of new WoF, with way better damage, damage type (slash stacks, fire does not) and armor disspell.... that it's on par with quite a few lazy metas all by itself while not restricting invisibility, teleports OR Bladestorm is probably closer to the truth. I didn't min max anything eather... this is a quite balanced build.

Well this was the video YOU gave us saying untruths. You said you out damaged frames in THIS video but I have shown you differently. So where you think you are outdamaging frames because of final numbers... you are mistaken. I don't want to see a video of you and your friends setting up a VERY specific situation like you did in the last video... but still managed to get called out for failing BTW. Those were hands down trash characters not using any build I have ever made or seen. It was a rigged contest and you failed. It's ok that one skill is not as powerful as an entire set... it's fine honestly... but your claim that it is something that it is not needs to stop. I understand you want so badly to think your Ash is great but in all honesty it needs a lot of TLC to it's number 4. Ash is the lethal ASSASSIN... or he was at least. Now he's just a sub-par killer when standing next to other frames. It really is a shame how far he has fallen. It may be the best thing since sliced bread on PC but I'm not complaining about PC. I'm upset that on X-Box he is handicapable and confined to a wheelchair. The once great lethal executioner has been crippled. Not paralyzed like you guys think we are suggesting but hindered in a way that ruined him compaired to his former glory. Give us our glory back. It's been far far too long. I want to see Ash be AMAZING again and stand out in the crowd. Not do things every other frame can do.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Natfrog123:

It was a rigged contest 

Indeed. One that implyed that even half decent frames do well with bad abilities in a scaling level range between levels 40 and 100 with one ability, literally what i've covered here with the one ability that's on par with those. That's evidently even better then some.

 

He is a assassin indeed. Imagine what happens when you actually use his abilitys that are set to those levels. That "damage you don't need" appearently.

Edited July 8, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Indeed. One that implyed that even half decent frames do well with bad abilities in a scaling level range between levels 40 and 100 with one ability, literally what i've covered here with the one ability that's on par with those. Evidently even better then some.

 

He is a assassin indeed. Imagine what happens when you actually use his abilitys that are set to those levels. That "damage you don't need" appearently.

Just stop. You have already lost this debate. Your claim was proven wrong. it's over stop wasting more of my time.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Natfrog123:

Just stop. You have already lost this debate. Your claim was proven wrong. it's over stop wasting more of my time.

^^ my claim was that he isn't behind "effective" abilities with his shurikens, what i have prooven. What you've brought up is that the damage of static abilities with no scaling is lacking and you're correct. That's what brings his bladestorm, teleport and shurikens armor drain into the spotlight, which is appearently "useless because it isn't as effective".

What is it now?

Edited July 8, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

^^ my claim was that he isn't behind "effective" abilities with his shurikens, what i have prooven. What you've brought up is that the damage of static abilities with no scaling is lacking and you're correct. That's what brings his bladestorm and shurikens armor into the spotlight, which is appearently "useless because it isn't as effective".

What is it now?

He is behind with his shuriken and setting up your friends to hold back or run crap setups isn't proving your point. Even with the trash setup the only other one doing ANY damage manages to out damage you. If you ran with my friends you wouldn't have gotten even HALF of those kills. Again that is ok if you are only useing a single skill. Why are you defending this point so much? Is your pride under fire here? 

As for using bladestorm as well your damage would have fell off that much more because of time constrants. You keep thinking the trash players you are playing with are the norm.... they are not. They were garbage either by design (which I think is the case) or by default. You asking your friends to help prove a point and to hold back is not uncommon. I could ask my friend to do the same thing for almost ANY skill in the game. If we have an outcome we are trying to show surely I am smart enough to figure out a way to show that outcome in a video even if that isn't the normal way things work.

Now please stop wasting all of our time. You have proven your not a trustworthy source by your own words and game play. Your claim was false and the maths don't lie. Again it's not a bad thing your 1 spam isn't as good as an entire set. Even if the scene was setup for you to prove that point with your friends.

[Natfrog123]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

^^ my claim was that he isn't behind "effective" abilities with his shurikens, what i have prooven. What you've brought up is that the damage of static abilities with no scaling is lacking and you're correct. That's what brings his bladestorm and shurikens armor into the spotlight, which is appearently "useless because it isn't as effective".

What is it now?

"effective" 

Those were not "effective" frames. The kill counts do not lie. You had a trash buffer Octavia. A bunker frost. I presume an average at best Ember. Just stop. 

Octavia should have had 280% range with as much duration as possible.

Ember should have been using the stealth from Octavia going full glass.

Frost just should not have been at all and replaced with saryn/Korha/nidus/banshee/Mesa/etc.

I mean you did say "effective abilities" after all.

Now please stop this garbage. You are making yourself out to be a fool for defending a single skill that is ok at best.