We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

Eisvogel · August 20, 2013

lol... thanks for taking the time to actually check it and notice the updates, greatly appreciated =)

Eisvogel · August 20, 2013

Be sure to let us know if you do so we can read it =)

g0thv4mp1r3 · August 20, 2013

DE do you want to make your game more appealing?

A suggestion to make bosses more challenging, more team play, take a look at Vindictus, take a look at all the mini-bosses, bosses and raid bosses, players learn they're attack patterns, they evade, they work in team to hit some weak points on the bosses( here use banshee's ability and voila weak point exposed.... pfff), they do break offs that rewards them items, there are countless examples not only in Vindictus but in other games as well.

Eisvogel · August 20, 2013

Good ol Vindi's bosses..... oh my what a fantastic game, shame it got ruined but full beyond pay 2 win forced approach.... courtesy of none other that our dear Nexon..... i will forever miss that game.

While the mechanics are nowhere near the ones in Vindictus, the thought of Vindictus bosses greatly motivated some of my ideas.... mainly because, that's the grade of challenge i expect from this game... instead of lame stat scaling, bosses that make you sweat for the win... that are both impressive and fearsome.

alocrius · August 20, 2013

Improving Warframe and addressing endgame is not about content for me. The entire game could keep the same exact format if DE simply would read the writing on the wall(forums) and start updating gameplay. Updating gameplay, imo, means increasing the skill ceiling by increasing the depth of the core game mechanics. The strong points of the game mechanics are, have been, will always be movement and melee. If effort was expended into allowing the game depth to expand into deeper combat mechanics and more exciting level design all the "kvetching" would come to an abrupt stop. Basically the full potential of the Tenno is locked up behind poor level design, shallow combat mechanics and needless to say simplistic enemies with poor ai.

What livestream 12 indicates is they aren't going to innovate new game mechanics simply polish/add to the current mission types. I think this is indicative of the main problem of Warframes endgame and why the game, for veterans, is in arrested development. If this were really beta they would still be thinking about vertical improvements to the core game mechanics but we haven't seen ANY indication of this SINCE DAY ONE!! And if you're thinking "but the grappling hook is in the works" that is a half-hearted gimmick, which is probably why we haven't seen it already. And kogake is the antithesis of what I'm talking about. What we see are predictable lateral expansions that bank on the success of the existing model.

My admittedly radical solution is melee/martial arts warframe ability mods and high challenge dead-end missions against enemies with comparative abilities. The fulfillment of Warframe to me is in becoming more and more of a ninja-type who exacts retribution on the enemy. Imagine if you will an update that instead of giving you more of what you already have, namely weapons and repetitive missions, you receive a series of SITUATIONAL ninja abilities that are then called upon in special missions with situationally specific challenges. These missions could also be used to dole out lore and episodic story content. I have already posted about this concept in more detail here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68907-tenno-foundation-for-martial-excellence/#entry732001. I would go into a lot more detail for these mission types as I have lots of ideas but unfortunately it didn't generate a lot of interest. I would still like it to be included in the endgame discussion.

Edit: I should give a brief example of the gameplay I'm advocating for: Imagine fighting a group of enemies who use swords as powerful as yours that could cut you in half in one swipe. You would need one of the sword mods for blocking or counter attack and a crowd control kick mod (butterfly kick) to effectively counter this threat (and throw in a high powered execution mod as well). A proper challenge requiring martial excellence. Like the bow which requires more skill and focus to effectively use, situational abilities like close range cc kicks and defensive/offensive martial arts abilities would also require more focus and greater skill. This is the type of immersion into the Warframe universe I'm looking for. Along with more personalized high risk missions that cater to these more challenging skill sets.

If we could do this Warframe wouldn't be a simplistic arcade shooter anymore which I feel is it's weak point.

Edited August 23, 2013 by alocrius

D3thpool · August 20, 2013

Well, judging the last "community hot topic":

Number tweaks & some other minor bandaids wont change anything.

Honestly loosing hope here.

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

I know what you mean... but let's try to keep hopes up, the other option is letting a nice game with massive potential go to waste or just simply outright quit.

D3thpool · August 21, 2013

True.

But after reading DE's latest posts about the subject ..i dont think they "got" it.

Like there is so MANY feedback & suggestions regarding the gameplay/missions etc. and DE seems to think that some value changes & other bandaids could fix the grinding or the general lack of everything including a challenge.

The proposed numbers tweaking & slightly different missions wont change a damn thing.

Edited August 21, 2013 by D3thpool

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

You got that right.... i sincerely hope the new Golem won't be just another Vor/Krill on a bigger scale.... because that might just be too much for me

Inkyubasu · August 21, 2013

- Assassin Squad: We Tenno are running rampage on the galaxy, following the commands of the Lotus and killing people left and right under the impression we are doing the right thing (for whatever the reason we yet know nothing about). So, don't you think we are making some fellas mad all over the galaxy? It would make perfect sense that they dispatched pro assassins to wipe us out after our misdeeds (in that sense, similar to the stalker.... though linked to the things we know, like grineer/corpus factions and not a mysterious Tenno-like warrior). And i would love to feel a pulse, a real sense of random danger and ambiance.... for example, lights flickering? No, wipe out all lighting around and make it pitch black... remove the full vision, like with smoke deployed all around the squad and assassins coming out of the shadows to rip Tenno apart. The key factor is trying to give the player a real sense of danger (Stalker was nerfed so much that we lol at him now, and has 0.001% chance of killing us if we have at least a piece of useful gear) and would have to be able to kill Tenno and not just die like butter. In case this could prove too much for newer players, it could be implemented as a toggle mode where the players could choose to activate it for the rewards and the challenge. To clarify once more, this assassin squad would be composed of super elite units, not Stalkers. I envision this as something generic (we make bad guys angry, they pay someone to take us out), and not something tied to the lore and mysterious as Stalker.

- Faction Favors: Where there is gain, everything is possible. So would it be that strange for factions to suddenly beg us for help in exchange of something useful? For instance, maybe we are in a Grineer ship and the Corpus attack, and they offer us goodies/resources if we help them fend off the Corpus. The fomorian ships event was about helping the Corpus in exchange of something, so it wouldn't be crazy to think that can happen regularly in a smaller scale... after all, if there's a gain and The Lotus doesn't complain, why not? We have done it before.

I totally agree whit this,not whit the cryogenic dream, just whit the factions and i don't know, some kind of "stalker squads" maybe it could be even more challenging than the boss itselfs,just saying, but i don't really agree whit all the other things,still i wish they could "listen" to this one :D

Edited August 21, 2013 by Inkyubasu

Beany · August 21, 2013

Ive been talkin with allot of tenno's , and what i conclude is that farming and farming and farming is just burning people put , already half of my own clan has burned out cuz of that , they just need to put a new game mode into it , like for example -> PVP atleast a lil bit , but then without the skills of the warframes and only use weapons that have same stats ( no1 has better cuz of the mods but just standard dmg on it ) then its about using "real"skills instead of havin the best equipment and that keep the competetive side into balance and more fun , so people cant get burned out easily like what people already has with Phobos , 75% of my clan was already done in 2 days... FREAKING 2days... that should already say enough about the farming part , we need new gamemode to keep the players interested or DE just lose players... cuz people already know with new planets or new S#&$ to farm its done in a few days maybe a week if they find even more stuff to farm for but eventually people will get burned out again..

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

Exactly... releasing more weapons or tilesets will just extend the amount of names and dots to look at, and bore us with.... we need them to focus on making the actual content interesting, making the gameplay fun and enjoyable... and above all, challenging.... something to give the players both a meaning to carry on and a sense of accomplishment.... we have neither at the moment.

I don't wanna get into PVP, mostly because: A) The game is focused on PvE and it's good at that, it's not suit for PvP and i am hoping we get at least one thing right first (pve) and B) There are no mechanics to make an engaging pvp..... even if you take away the abilities, the game is only based on mods and items.... there's absolutely no skill, no dynamics.... pvping each other is 100% meaningless, and winning hardly proves you bested your opponent in anything.

Kracken · August 21, 2013

i'm lately was thinking not about the endgame - but the gameplay what we have at this point. almost everything we it easy to gain. from map progression, resources, to weapons (and i'm not talking about void runs).

I will start from the map. WE go exterminate/capture/sabotage etc on a mission - its done ... we exit now we can go to the next area/planet. lets stop it right here. its kinda pretty boring huh ? lest change that - lest say by doing that we can unlock only small part of the map/missions. to unlock the rest we should do something special - a "secret" achievement/mission objective - like finding a data-bank (example: on defense mission);rock shelf with different route,different route itself, end the mission in different way (and not faster or silent)- THAT kind of thing. for those that have fully explored solar system would be not challenging - it would need a forced map reset- you got that right a MAP RESET.

but that's not all. we need much more types of mission- and mix of them - not one objective on once but two or even THREE objectives.and even missions that can be do only solo/in party.

DE want to change some mission - i say let make them more playable or fun to play - the rescue mission was straigh liner - we go, beat the crap out of the guards and get the hell out of there... what i think of is make it a litle more twisted - let say we go to MD but instead of just ending the mission - the "kofin" will open and we catch sleepinghead, and take him over the shoulder. our speed will be slower but when we will need it (like in gunfight) we can just lay him down. we would so similar to normal defense missions (or we could finely saw the recovery team xD ).

I would like to see something like that - a mini boss that we need to capture is guarded by a boss.

but yeah... minibosses ... random encounter... hmm ... only now all we have is stalker. WE NEED MOAR!! a bosses/minibosses that would be a additional hindrance/challenge to us (and source of bp's/resources) or a "not that rogue" tenno that want to help us on the mission(a npc) but will not be in the center of an mission and sometimes we would need to rescue him as mission objective.

weapons are practically there - all we need is to go farm the resources and craft it. by copying the idea from maps - we should start only with small set of items to buy/craft (teno only)- the rest we should unlock from achieving something - lest say gorgon bp will be dropped only from a random encounter on earth from heavy gunner champion (a miniboss) - but we still have to re-engineer the bp for us to work. the weapons that can be got from actual bosses - will drop the bp's from a special type of missions- similar to nightmare(let name it gauntlet mode) - the mobs would have different/higher stats (like invulnerability to knockdown, etc) and the bosses would be much stronger and have different skills and we wouldn't have any disadvantages.it still much more challenging.

similar to resources and crafting - the most valuable resources we will get from / bosses and mini-bosses.

i'm playing WF from February and i always asked myself - why this/that frame dont have a passive resistance to this or that- frost to ice/cold; amber to fire; etc... and why the frames dont have any disadvantages, and skills a cooldowns. with them the frames would be much more balanced (at this point i dont know how to balance them...its all in hand of the creators). and why skills wont live a specific environment hazards with their skills on limited space ? (frost/amber/saryn etc)

At the time of introducing new mod system (if i remember correctly) it was mentioned that frames could have additional skills. let say they wont have anything new - but we would use a "chip" that would modify the skills that we already have - those chip would be implemented to the skill cards and the change would be permanent (we have duplicates of the skill cards so it wont hurt). those chip would &#! some new effect/buff the old / nerf or even add some disadvantage - all this in a +/- to energy used by that skill.

chip would be crafted/dropped/buyer.

fallowing that thought we have a random environment hazards.. let stop with random - specifick maps/planets should have some hazards as a standard - like the icy planet will have cold effect. and even that effect would be even buffed - our shield /hp would be damaged by those hazards from time to time or when we are exposed on their effect for a too long. plus enemies would inflict on us a wider palette of status effects- not only poison, burn, frost - but stun, "crippled" and similar to lokies disarm. (i would wish to even add a list for each of frame what % resistance it have to what status effect/ source of dmg but this is not an rpg)

since we are at warframes... they need something that would make them "special". i would add to them and to weapons additional slot (max 2) for additional equipment; in those i would put:

for frames:

-spiked shoes (for icy/slippery terrains)

-any resistant mods (anyone is using them normally?!)

-enemy radar

- flashlight

and similar

for weapons:

- all those special mods (thunderbolt/primed chamber)

- a scope (sniper rifles/seer would game more from it)

- grappling hook

and similar

additionally weapons would get a SKILL SLOT - each type of weapon should have different ones - like heavy weapons charged attack would make a wave/slam the ground to knock back enemies, glaive would not bounce only go trough enemies, dual/single would cause bleeding effect - something like that. (the special mods like thunder bolt would be a skill not a "mod" or something ...) (some skill could be used only 1 up to 5 times ion one mission - and it uses energy)

all that additional slots and "mods" would be similar to aura slots - but will not give that much additional points - max +4 - or can have be used like normal mods that subtract the mod points.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Cracken

alocrius · August 21, 2013

You can rearrange the data terminals on a burning Grineer ship but it won't stop the Sawman from chopping off his own leg. An old Orokin proverb I heard once while swinging my reaper with some dojo farmers.

OmniLight · August 21, 2013

I like the idea of this but we'd really need a boss with good AI and mechanics to him for it to be enjoyable to do on a regular basis. Invincibility from damage just prolongs the fight despite how bullet spongy the boss could be. That isn't entertaining since a lot of the bosses aren't a threat in any way with a good team (along with those that can solo any of them perfectly fine). And just upping their normal attacks and weaker abilities damage isn't a good way either but also just the cheap way out.

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

Added to OP in entry list. I am going now Cracken, so i'll answer your wall-o-text later when i am back =3

Thanks for taking the time to leave your feedback

Edited August 21, 2013 by Eisvogel

Kracken · August 21, 2013

but I feel like I dint wrote about something ... xD

Hixlysss · August 21, 2013

At least the new golem aka Colossus appears to be near "End game" worthy sort of boss. The problem that I see is that DE is trying to cater to old and new players, which there is a giant gap between what is the "Veteran" and "Noob" in that most vets have been around since CB and have farmed, farmed, farmed, and know every little detail possible on how to fight this.

How ever, DE has stated they are working on a lot of things, with update 10 we are expecting change to damage, the new game modes for spy and deception, and Colossus. On top of that DE has stated they are working on AI, to make stealth gameplay more viable, so that can also help.

They are at least somewhat aware that the game is getting old and they need to revamp it, and they are doing it near as I can tell anyway. Sure there is no "end game" content now, but from the looks of it they are setting the ground work, getting a feel for how players, both old and new, like these changes and will probably incorporate them into any sort of "End game" content.

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

I'd even rather they focus on all the gameplay topics addressed in suggestions like the ones in this thread, before endgame probably. We need the challenge and we need the feeling to keep in the game and to spot new players quitting/getting bored after 10/20hs of gameplay.

There's such a gap between "noob" and "veteran" because the game completely lacks any sense of skill or real challenge, it's just mods and stats.... nothing else, absolutely nothing. Then it's either you dish enough dps and wipe everything out, or you lack the gear/mods and you feel completely worthless, it doesn't matter if you are a skilled adept gamer or a first time gamer.

And it shows the form of jokes as the lame nightmare mod, since there is nothing to do or how to challenge the players.... they throw in a cheapness even greater than stat scaling, and just decide to break the rules the game prepared you with since the start.... and punish the players that way, trying to mask it as an "endgame mode" or a "challenge"..... what a joke....

Let's hope they start changing the course soon

Eisvogel · August 21, 2013

Indeed we need to attack the gameplay and mechanics first, before going into the end-game content... if possible, both at once to reach out for all the range of players out there.

The missions, hazards, bosses/minibosses and the meaningless items (more weapons, more tiles just the same)... we agree on everything, since that's why i made those sections in the OP.

I think the passives you speak off, inherent to frames, should be a given.... it's not crazy to think that each frame is specialized in something since each one has their own powers, and since auras already exist the system can't be any hard to implement.

I dunno about chipping the mods, i think there's already enough mess as it is with forma, dual mods and beyond. And we also have the problem that anything in the game can be bypassed by just spamming energy. Build are focused mostly on energy, it's like.... instead of a life saving tactical ability.... you have abilities as commodities, free to spam away. That's probably a major hindrance to any other aspect in the game and blocks the path to move forward

I would really like the idea of getting a skill shot based on each weapon or weapon type.

jpvi1207 · August 22, 2013

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/98223-new-idea-for-a-weapon/

this is a pretty good idea

Eisvogel · August 22, 2013

Just took a look at it and left my comment :3

It's nice, and we can't really complain because we have so many S#&$... RPG, acid, flamethrower, flux beam XD.... the thing is no one would use it with the current gameplay.

Intrude · August 22, 2013

I agree, tilesets and weapons create temporary homework for the devs... thats all. The hype of a wep or tileset is so short, it is close to not being worth it.

I stopped playing warframe for quite sometime now, and went on to playing the almighty SKYRIM. I can conclude what makes this game the best game that I played.

This game has such deep lore! The game is so emmersive to the story, and the environment and everything is centered around being a dragonborn and the legacy to make.

The story is so good, I get goose bumps when I play! That is the complete opposite for warframe! Warframe is just a bunch of beautiful colors mixed together to create "modern art" if you get what I mean :p

Skyrim painted a story that automatically placed you in the spot of a dragonborn. The story is forced upon you to suck up, and it is amazing!

Warframe wants you to like match the sound of your warframe and stuff, and want you to make up your story or something... Seriously... It is like an author giving you a blank book and saying, "Here, write a story, you are going to enjoy it."......NO.

Skyrim gave you many books filled with history and lore and said, "Do whatever you want... But know that the outcome will be different based on your actions."

Yes game mechanics can be improved. But I truly believe that those are just the icing on the cake. And when you eat too much icing, you get sick of it. Skyrim's combat is more quirky than warframe, but yet I enjoyed it more because I fought for a reason! My enemies had a reason to die! (Sounds sinister) The enemies in warframe are innocent! I feel a bit sad for one-shotting all of the grineer!

Eisvogel · August 22, 2013

Thing is... the reason that attempts to compell you to keep playing elder scrolls is the story.... because that's pretty much all there is. It's no wonder a lot of people quit Elder scrolls half way before finishing it..... the game gets way too repetitive and at some point, the lore and story that drives you just isn't enough.... the game is too boring with so much repetition and so little mechanics to play with.

That's why we need to address the gameplay as well as the story/lore.... because story and lore only go so far, they won't last without a fun and attractive gameplay that stands along.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Eisvogel

Enguzrad · August 22, 2013

My main problem with Warframe right now is that I don't know if I should look at it as a RPG or action shooter.

It requires some skill, you have to know how to aim (which is more difficult with non-hitscan weapons), you can do headshots and you can run on walls. But mostly it is about mods. Player's success depends roughly 90% on mods and 10% on skill. More powerful mods on your weapons allows you to fight stronger enemies but this progression is not endless. Once you reach the top, what are you going to do? I have no problem with this vertical progression in singleplayer games, where the game has open world and there is good story which draws me through the game.

If the game is supposed to entertain you infinitely, it needs something which doesn't get old even if you did it houndred times already. The only thing which is close to this is defense. But I'm not playing defense because I enjoy it more than other missions, I play it because there is the largest reward. The gameplay is just aiming and shooting, sometimes taking cover. And after some time there is so much enemies that shooting turns into casting ultimates, because you just don't kill fast enough with your weapons. And almost everything in the game supports this kind of gameplay. We have mods which insanely boosts our stats and ammo and energy orbs dropping everywhere.

So, If Warframe is supposed to be like this, than we need something new to do on high levels, because defense 8-8 and defense 40-40 is the same, you just need better mods. And a good story to draw us through repetitive missions.

If this is bad and the game is just broken and needs to be fixed, than there is lots and lots to do. Balancing the weapons, nerfing or reworking the mods, reworking the energy system and creating missions which are worth to play again.

We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

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