Kaminariss Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 How did you still not get it? I wrote 3 times already that it was related to trading, ANY trading. Tax was not issue. Gambling was. Why are you desparetly trying to defend it? BTW, Disingenuous is putting your words in my mouth. Because frankly I don't care if they did it deliberatly or made a mistake. It doesn't even matter. As for me they may be company made of pure evil. But one thing is certain. IF they did it, it is possible. Their game made a huge sucess worldwide and if they broke the law, governments would already take actions against them. Not to mention it would dissapear from Google Play long time ago. All I said it is not an issue in context of warframe because WF already has trading and is rated Mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabask Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: How did you still not get it? I wrote 3 times already that it was related to trading, ANY trading. Tax was not issue. Gambling was. Why are you desparetly trying to defend it? BTW, Disingenuous is putting your words in my mouth. Because frankly I don't care if they did it deliberatly or made a mistake. It doesn't even matter. As for me they may be company made of pure evil. But one thing is certain. IF they did it, it is possible. Their game made a huge sucess worldwide and if they broke the law, governments would already take actions against them. Not to mention it would dissapear from Google Play long time ago. All I said it is not an issue in context of warframe because WF already has trading and is rated Mature. The way you phrased this: 34 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: The only fault they did was to be rated Teen instead of Mature in South Korea Implies that it's not a big deal. And no, it would not disappear from Google Play. They just made a 15+ and 18+ version of the game after they raked in hundreds of millions of dollars while violating the law. It isn't really relevant that the law the violated was in relation to age ratings. They've demonstrated that they are willing to violate laws because they believe they can get away with it. The rest of the gaming industry hasn't taken that risk. That would imply that there is some sort of liability involved running their auction house like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBeach Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 On 2/24/2018 at 3:40 PM, SpectroSinjkai0 said: The reason is because too many players are afraid of the thought of an auction house, however if we present the idea of an AH just for rivens first then it may gain favor seeing as rivens are a hard item to link sometimes and impossible to sell unveiled in warframe.market. This is very possible but does not have to be the exact same way as WoW since warframe is free however for this to work it'd need to be very exclusive to prime sets, arcanes, and unique rivens because those would take a huge load off of the rest of the market I'm not sure how I feel about an Auction House BUT rivens need their own outlet. I'm 100% for an auction house just for Rivens. I'll even settle for a trade chat that is exclusively for Rivens. It is ridiculous sorting things out in chat and most of it is rivens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 21 minutes ago, Urabask said: Implies that it's not a big deal. And no, I didn't say it is not a big deal. Frankly speaking I don't know how much of a deal it is in South Korea. And it is not an issue here. 23 minutes ago, Urabask said: The rest of the gaming industry hasn't taken that risk. That would imply that there is some sort of liability involved running their auction house like that. You are always trying to find a catch. But no, a lot portion of gaming industry has taken a lot of risks. You don't even need to search far: Nezha, Wukong as Chinese deities. As a result, you cannot tread carefully because there will be always someone who will feel offended. Also I am pretty sure you will find more examples like L2R. And you know what is funny? Real money should have even stricter laws than virtual currency for obvious reasons. Yet again it is perfectly fine to have trade tax on ebay and sites alike. Virtual currency exchanges also have those fees, credit cards etc. You are just trying make up some wierd backstory to this whole argument but its not gonna work. I have provided evidence that this is possible, now present me evidence that this is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) >Person makes a suggestion on the forums about his or her opinion/statement on a way to improve the game. >Huge chunk of the forum thread comments is just full of heated arguments trying to prove the other side wrong Yep...nothing new here Edit: Counted almost 18 pages of pure anger. Jeez guys calm down lol, it's just a game! Edited March 9, 2018 by Grim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabask Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 11 hours ago, Kaminariss said: You are always trying to find a catch. But no, a lot portion of gaming industry has taken a lot of risks. You don't even need to search far: Nezha, Wukong as Chinese deities. As a result, you cannot tread carefully because there will be always someone who will feel offended. Also I am pretty sure you will find more examples like L2R. This is actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. Developers are less concerned with offending anyone when they release a game in China and more concerned with violating government censorship regulations. Many developers actually censor parts of their game that other games don't just on the off chance that they could get nailed on by the Ministry of Culture's review process. 11 hours ago, Kaminariss said: And you know what is funny? Real money should have even stricter laws than virtual currency for obvious reasons. Yet again it is perfectly fine to have trade tax on ebay and sites alike. Virtual currency exchanges also have those fees, credit cards etc. Seriously? What is with your inability to understand that different laws apply to real money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Urabask said: This is actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. You were talking about something different, you condemned netmarble for what they did and said: 15 hours ago, Kaminariss said: The rest of the gaming industry hasn't taken that risk. That would imply that there is some sort of liability involved running their auction house like that. Which is not even remotely close to truth because that would >imply you know what the rest of gaming industry did. 3 hours ago, Urabask said: Seriously? What is with your inability to understand that different laws apply to real money? You still trying to defend? The main issues are always the same whenever is a real currency or virtual one, customer protection, money laundering (crime related) and getting profits for currency usage. At this point thinking that putting tax on virtual currency would be impossible is plain sily (and you were dead certain about it). The only concern that developers of the game might have is the tax that government could put on those trades. Do you remember screenshot I posted? "A 10% trade fee and territory tax will be charged for this sale" Edited March 9, 2018 by Kaminariss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabask Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: You were talking about something different, you condemned netmarble for what they did and said: No, I pointed out that Netmarble deliberately violated the law while other companies comply with laws they could get away with violating because it is not worth the added liability. You can keep chopping up my posts since reading a full paragraph is apparently too difficult but it's not going to change what I said. 14 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: Which is not even remotely close to truth because that would >imply you know what the rest of gaming industry did. Virtually every game on the market uses a secondary currency earned via gameplay for their auction house. There has to be a reason for that. Edited March 9, 2018 by Urabask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealDestian Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) On 3/8/2018 at 9:54 AM, Urabask said: Maintaining the current balance between value and ease of access for plat is the kind of thing most MMO developers only dream of. You are significantly understating the success of Warframe's economy relative to other games FFXIV and WoW both have economies that blow WF's clean out of the water, and that's with WoW having RMT in the form of the tokens that cost $20. And how "successful" is this economy when Warframe.market is flooded with 1 plat items as it is...? All I'm hearing is "Making this system as convenient as it is in competing games would break the economy." and that's an exceedingly bad sign when it comes to gauging the health of the game's economy. Edited March 10, 2018 by TheRealDestian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabask Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said: FFXIV and WoW both have economies that blow WF's clean out of the water, and that's with WoW having RMT in the form of the tokens that cost $20. You mean two economies that are repeatedly broken and Blizzard/Square Enix keep trying to throw **** at the wall to see if they fix them? Okay. 22 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said: And how "successful" is this economy when Warframe.market is flooded with 1 plat items as it is...? Because outside of rivens there are no BiS items that are obscenely expensive. You can earn enough plat to buy all the prime Warframes and prime weapons in a much more reasonable timeframe than you can get to BiS in either of the games you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealDestian Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 24 minutes ago, Urabask said: You mean two economies that are repeatedly broken and Blizzard/Square Enix keep trying to throw **** at the wall to see if they fix them? I mean two economies that function so well that I made enough money in WoW to pay for two subs via buying game time tokens and made ~45 million gil in XIV in just under a month. I wish WF's economy was as "broken"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KochDerFrettchen Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Ehhhh yeah, it's never as much of a hassle as these threads make it out to be. Seen this plenty in some other MMOs that had no AH, and y'all always get dramatic making it sound like you had to traverse the entire world only to realize you didn't know what the thing you were trying to trade was worth and couldn't be bothered to take 5 seconds and google it or ask a clanmate/friend/general chat so you got scammed out of your life savings for an ammo drum/into selling a CC/CD/D/-Z soma riven for 20p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heckzu Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 4 hours ago, TheRealDestian said: WoW having RMT in the form of the tokens that cost $20. WoW tokens cost $20 and only give $15 Battle Net currency. That's a 25% loss. They also can't be broken down into smaller values so you're stuck with either spending $20 or not buying it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) On 9.03.2018 at 6:39 PM, Urabask said: Virtually every game on the market uses a secondary currency earned via gameplay for their auction house. Virtually every argument you made is invalid because you undermine your creditability by >implying you know every mmo game out there and >implying that supply in warframe is almost the same as amout of total items in game which is not even remotely possible. 32 minutes ago, Heckzu said: WoW tokens cost $20 and only give $15 Battle Net currency. That's a 25% loss. Thats not how you use token. Obviously you need to loose something when trading gold for cash or the other way around. But for wealthy players it is possible to play for "free" (for the time they spend in game). And it is as TheRealDestian says, wow economy is better than at least few real world countries, not to mention other games. http://fortune.com/2017/08/01/venezuela-bolivar-world-of-warcraft-currency/ If I am not mistaken WoW market is estimated at few milliards dollars. (Word bilions is ambiguous so I will not use it) However I cannot provide source because I read that long time ago so I may as well be mistaken. Edited March 10, 2018 by Kaminariss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheRealDestian said: I mean two economies that function so well that I made enough money in WoW to pay for two subs via buying game time tokens and made ~45 million gil in XIV in just under a month. I wish WF's economy was as "broken"... For a f2p game when players can avoid paying for things to that extent, that is pretty much the definition of broken economy. That's why it's kind of dumb to talk about two subscription games with retail 19 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: Virtually every argument you made is invalid because you undermine your creditability by >implying you know every mmo game out there and >implying that supply in warframe is almost the same as amout of total items in game which is not even remotely possible. Looks like you forgot to google the word virtually. Also, you've only found one example of a game from a company the knowingly violates laws that works remotely the same as how you'd like warframe to :/ 19 minutes ago, Kaminariss said: (Word bilions is ambiguous so I will not use it) Oh look, more half assed googling. British English adopted the US definition of Billion back in the 70s. Edited March 11, 2018 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Aggh said: For a f2p game when players can avoid paying for things to that extent, that is pretty much the definition of broken economy. That's why it's kind of dumb to talk about two subscription games with retail Oh wow, still delusional that time is not worth the money. 1 hour ago, Aggh said: Also, you've only found one example of a game from a company the knowingly violates laws that works remotely the same as how you'd like warframe to :/ Funny how you imagine things. Give us a proof that they violate the law. Otherewise it is just nonsense. 1 hour ago, Aggh said: Oh look, more half assed googling. British English adopted the US definition of Billion back in the 70s. Oh look, your view is so narrow you don't know that other countries use BOTH milliard and bilion, like mine. And our bilion is not equal american bilion. Thus I use financial term miliard which you can read in wikipedia: Quote The financial term, yard, which derives from milliard, is used on financial markets, as, unlike the term, billion, it is internationally unambiguous and phonetically distinct from million. Likewise, many long scale countries use the word billiard (or similar) for one thousand long scale billions (i.e., 1015), and the word trilliard (or similar) for one thousand long scale trillions (i.e., 1021), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KochDerFrettchen Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 ITT: pedantic argumentation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealDestian Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Aggh said: For a f2p game when players can avoid paying for things to that extent, that is pretty much the definition of broken economy. That's why it's kind of dumb to talk about two subscription games with retail No one is "avoiding" paying for anything when it's all being bought with a currency that must first be purchased through DE. The same principle of time vs. money applies in both WF and WoW and both games benefit from it: A player with more money than time buys a currency sold by the developer (plat and WoW tokens), then uses those in game to acquire something they want, either BPs, mods, parts, etc. or in game gold, respectively. Either way, SOMEONE is buying plat from DE to trade to people for items they want, and that plat inevitably gets spent on one of the game's many, MANY platsinks at some point. Also, the knowledge that it'll be extremely easy to buy exactly the item you want with 0 downtime (or human interaction) will actually indirectly increase the value of plat because plat then becomes the ultimate solution for a player looking to get things done quickly. Right now, no amount of plat can get you the item you want if you can't find someone that's selling it. With an AH/market board, plat would allow you to bypass any form of wait, which makes it even more of an impulse buy for impatient players. Edited March 11, 2018 by TheRealDestian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Kaminariss said: Oh wow, still delusional that time is not worth the money. Funny how you imagine things. Give us a proof that they violate the law. Otherewise it is just nonsense. Oh look, your view is so narrow you don't know that other countries use BOTH milliard and bilion, like mine. And our bilion is not equal american bilion. Thus I use financial term miliard which you can read in wikipedia: Read the article you linked. The committee told them straight up that their trading system was pretty much RMT, which is illegal in Korea. They simply told them instead of taking legal action to give them a chance to fix it. Which they did. You really think they'd give up a cash cow like that because they didn't think they could face legal consequences? You are incredibly naive :/ We're speaking English, not another language. When in Rome. 47 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said: No one is "avoiding" paying for anything when it's all being bought with a currency that must first be purchased through DE. The same principle of time vs. money applies in both WF and WoW and both games benefit from it: A player with more money than time buys a currency sold by the developer (plat and WoW tokens), then uses those in game to acquire something they want, either BPs, mods, parts, etc. or in game gold, respectively. Either way, SOMEONE is buying plat from DE to trade to people for items they want, and that plat inevitably gets spent on one of the game's many, MANY platsinks at some point. Also, the knowledge that it'll be extremely easy to buy exactly the item you want with 0 downtime (or human interaction) will actually indirectly increase the value of plat because plat then becomes the ultimate solution for a player looking to get things done quickly. Right now, no amount of plat can get you the item you want if you can't find someone that's selling it. With an AH/market board, plat would allow you to bypass any form of wait, which makes it even more of an impulse buy for impatient players. Yes it is avoiding paying for anything. The conversion rate from paying to free to paying players is one of the most important statistics for any f2p game dev. True F2p games need a higher conversion rate than wow. Wow has retail and subscription fees across an even larger player population. Also, saying that WoW's economy is one that other games should follow is like saying that f2p games should follow the same monetization scheme as LoL. Their success is on such a different scale and so unique that they can make their own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Aggh said: The committee told them straight up that their trading system was pretty much RMT, which is illegal in Korea. They simply told them instead of taking legal action to give them a chance to fix it. Which they did. You really think they'd give up a cash cow like that because they didn't think they could face legal consequences? You are incredibly naive :/ Read this article once more, again with comprehension. 2 hours ago, Aggh said: We're speaking English, not another language. When in Rome. This is a multicultural forum, english is just a language used here. Just because you are ignorant doesn't mean I need to be too. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/milliard 2 hours ago, Aggh said: Yes it is avoiding paying for anything. The conversion rate from paying to free to paying players is one of the most important statistics for any f2p game dev. True F2p games need a higher conversion rate than wow. Wow has retail and subscription fees across an even larger player population. Your whole "argument" is yet again invalid because time = money, even in "free" to play games. You probably didn't know, but even with wow token EVERYONE is paying for playing with real money. If you can't figure out how it is working then you have no right to make arguments here. The only thing that differs is the "wage". And it is perfectly fine like it is right now. In warframe you can get at most $2 per hour. And WoW can get to the point of having a decent real world job. Last time i checked $20 per hour is possible. And if you wanna make money while playing game you wanna check EVE Online. Basically "F"2P games are time inefficient. Edited March 11, 2018 by Kaminariss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qscgg Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 wow... this thread still alive? people do hate the trade system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealDestian Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Aggh said: The conversion rate from paying to free to paying players is one of the most important statistics for any f2p game dev. https://deltadna.com/blog/how-whales-spend/ The F2P model doesn't work by converting as many players as possible to paying customers. It works by making as much money as possible from the players at the high end that are willing to spend it. If you're ignorant of this fact, I'm sorry, but you seriously need to go educate yourself before you try to discuss this any further (and I'm not saying this in a jerky manner: I had no idea what whales were and how they spend until I did some research and it was fairly mindblowing...). Whales pay for convenience. When they want something, they want it NOW. The fact that I cannot spend platinum to get the item I want by IMMEDIATELY walking up to an AH and buying it? Yeah, that makes platinum less valuable to me, because when I pay real money for something, I don't want to have to go through the hassle of finding someone selling it before I can have it. I want the BP now, and I want to turn around, jam it into my foundry, then pay another 50 plat to finish it immediately. Welcome to F2P games, where whales make waves and everyone else is just around to ride those waves. 7 hours ago, qscgg said: wow... this thread still alive? people do hate the trade system Well, yeah. In an age of gaming where nearly every modern MMO (F2P or P2P) has some form of consignment system that can sell items on behalf of players while those players are out playing the game, WF's lack of such a system is jarring in comparison. Edited March 11, 2018 by TheRealDestian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabask Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Kaminariss said: Funny how you imagine things. Give us a proof that they violate the law. Otherewise it is just nonsense. This actually isn't up for debate. This is the committe decision: https://www.grac.or.kr/Statistics/Popup/Pop_ReasonInfo.aspx?d55fa51b90b643748e7fa8e0be4757cfa6c813a6a053e8e5ec12581d53453bb0 The Won icon indicates they were found in violation of rating regulations for making a 15+ rated game with, "References to gambling or betting (speculation), simulated gambling". Edited March 11, 2018 by Urabask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaminariss Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Urabask said: This actually isn't up for debate. Yes it is, read my statement once again. I am still waiting for proof that they violate the law. (Protip: not violated in the past). From what i see decision of committee was to change rating to mature and they no longer violate law. Warframe is already rated Mature so no problems here to make tax on AH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatternistSlave Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Kaminariss said: WoW can get to the point of having a decent real world job. You see this as a good thing? There's lots of people that have made lots of money gaming the trading systems of lots of games. That doesn't somehow make them quality experiences. Games are for entertainment. Not so some yoball creating bots can make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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