So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[Borg1611]

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

This is a subscription game we're talking about here.  That went from having no pay2win mechanic at all to having one because of botters and gold sellers abusing the auction house.  I realize the game was popular enough and Blizzard had the impetus and resources to make the best they could of a bad situation, but that doesn't make the game any less irreparably damaged.

No... The game was improved. Not "irreparably damaged" at all. The only real damage that was done was by sub-par class design in WoD and Legion. That has nothing to do with business models or WoW tokens though. Blizzard is also far more aggressive at banning botters than many other companies. They even changed their terms of service during this expansion to tell you that they can scan other processes on your computer while the game is active, which absolutely devastated the public bot scene in WoW. 

If you think the WoW economy was somehow devastated or so horrible Blizzard had to add tokens when they didn't really want to.. I don't know what to tell you other than that your perception is completely misguided and wrong. Competing against gold sellers may have been a contributing factor, but the WoW token was massively popular to legit players on both sides. As I mentioned, it has created the best synergy between players who want to play for gold and players who want to play spending real money that any game has ever had. WoW has had an active and prosperous economy throughout its entire history, even with botting of gold and resources.

A lot of players that wouldn't be willing to pay $15 a month now play the game using in-game currency. WoW wouldn't be worth a real sub to me and hasn't been for years, but I still have active game time because it effectively doesn't cost me much because I have millions of gold. I've made millions in Legion just from all my mission table alts, effectively providing me with hundreds of dollars to spend on Blizzard products via my in-game currency that I didn't have to cheat or bot to acquire. Before they changed their EULA there were waves of resource farming bots you can see discussed on the woweconomy reddit, yet legit players were always able to make a ton of gold despite bots. They didn't destroy the game and now are even less of an issue. 

There is no pay to win aspect at all. What is pay to win about WoW? There is a sort of underground where you could pay mythic raiders to carry you through a raid or something, but that's not from Blizzard and they actively ban anyone they find to be providing services for real life money (we saw quite a number of bans for raid or M+ carries at one point in Legion). 

What can you buy with gold that is pay to win? Warframe has numerous pay to win aspects from boosts to directly buying items. You can buy weapons, frames and even resources directly for plat from the market or from vendors on cetus. There is only one thing you can buy for money that compare to any of that in WoW.

You can't directly buy anything of consequence from Blizzard for WoW besides a leveled character. A lot of people certainly complain about that, but when they add something that requires leveling, like the new race mog sets, they specifically set it up in a way where you can't buy a character boost to get the mog or achievement, you have to do it yourself.

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Well it certainly should be since the game isn't f2p.

It is F2P for people with gold. I have not had to spend a single dollar of my own on any blizzard product since the D3 AH existed. The D3 AH was a F2P portal for all Blizzard products and the WoW token was some years after that. Their games pay for themselves + for several future games and other random things you might want. I don't think there business models are completely innocent. Their gambling boxes in games like Overwatch I think are unethical at best, but things like the WoW token are more ethical and fair than a lot of practices you find in F2P games like Warframe. They focus on a player to player economy which is better for players on both sides (buying for $$ or buying for gold/in-game currencies) than a system where you balance your grinds around people buying boosts or getting fed up and just buying the item directly. 

A new player couldn't jump in for free, so it's not completely F2P, but for existing players it absolutely can become F2P. At the very least, the game more than pays for itself and many other games at the same time if you try at all. In that same sense Warframe isn't really F2P because you eventually (fairly quickly) will want more slots. Yea, you technically can log in without more slots (which isn't much better than being able to log into up to level 20 characters in WoW for free), but nobody is going to want to play long term without access to plat either via paying themselves or trade. 

I think Path of Exile is the only F2P game I've played without major pay to win aspects and even that game you eventually will be driven to buying more stash space if you don't want to go crazy long term. 

Edit: And while character boosts are a pay to win feature, they existed for years before WoW tokens could be exchanged for battle.net balance, so you can't even blame that or other blizzard services on tokens. Being able to buy them for in-game currency effectively made them less pay to win than they were previously since you can effectively grind for them in-game if you want.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Borg1611

[Kaminariss]

36 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

There is a sort of underground where you could pay mythic raiders to carry you through a raid or something, but that's not from Blizzard and they actively ban anyone they find to be providing services for real life money

But you can buy boosts for gold, it is perfectly legal. Having said that, you would go bankrupt before getting decent gear.

You still can't buy skill with neither gold nor real money. Warframe has nothing even remotely close to being as challenging as raiding. When i first gone to WF Raid i thought it was a childs play. WoW is still on the top because it can crush your dreams about being good player.

[PatternistSlave]

15 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

The D3 AH was

nearly the complete ruin of D3 and removed.  I appreciate you'd enjoy abusing an AH for your own profit, but this is profit you'd be making at the expense of DE, newer players, and the health of the game.

[PatternistSlave]

15 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

WoW tokens could be exchanged for battle.net balance

So you're able to buy Hearthstone cards by abusing the system in WoW?  Does everyone know the game is so pay2win because Blizzard hands out freebies to old WoW players?

Sorry.  Strike that.  Facilitates older players abusing new players in WoW.

Edited March 14, 2018 by PatternistSlave

[torsoreaper]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

nearly the complete ruin of D3 and removed.  I appreciate you'd enjoy abusing an AH for your own profit, but this is profit you'd be making at the expense of DE, newer players, and the health of the game.

So if DE made an auction house and took an AH tax as a % of plat for a sold item and charged a non-refundable % of plat just to list an item, that would be a huge plat sink which means people need to buy more Plat.  Also if AH was so easy to buy things, people would be encouraged to buy plat.  So how would that be at the expense of DE?

[PatternistSlave]

16 minutes ago, torsoreaper said:

So if DE made an auction house and took an AH tax as a % of plat for a sold item and charged a non-refundable % of plat just to list an item, that would be a huge plat sink which means people need to buy more Plat.  Also if AH was so easy to buy things, people would be encouraged to buy plat.  So how would that be at the expense of DE?

That's a tax on being a new and/or free player.  Could DE make the game completely pay2win and make more money?  Doubtful.  They don't have the name recognition to attract players.  We wouldn't be having this conversation right now, because I never would have started playing it.  Have had my fill of that BS.

[Femuru]

how on living earth is this topic still going on in the wackiest direction is beyond me. . . . . 

[Borg1611]

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

nearly the complete ruin of D3 and removed.  I appreciate you'd enjoy abusing an AH for your own profit, but this is profit you'd be making at the expense of DE, newer players, and the health of the game.

You don't know what you're talking about, nor do you understand the word abuse. Trade in D3 wasn't nearly as much of a problem as the mindless masses made it out to be, it was used as a scapegoat for all the other issues the game had. Issues like lack of interesting itemization and the fact that the game only had a story mode with no free roam were by far the biggest issues and they had nothing to do with trade or the AH. If they had had a crafting system and unique diversity as good as Path of Exile, trade accessibility would have been even better. Unfortunately everything was just a stat stick and it was all fairly uninteresting, which is the real reason so many left so quickly. 

Also, it is not "at the expense" of the company at all. Blizzard made a lot of money off their cut of the D3 ah and they make a lot of money off the WoW token. That's why it exists. Tested and works. By facilitating a synergy between players that want to buy with in-game currency and those that pay with real life money, they create a system to bring in more players from both sides and make a lot of money in the process. Everything is paid for in the end because someone has paid them real money at some point for everything that is bought. 

I'd take player to player trading over DE selling things directly to players any day. Every weapon, frame resource etc purchased directly from DE is a failed opportunity to promote a player to player economy. You can still make money via a cut/tax as well as getting people to farm for currency to buy cosmetics and slots, which far more would do if an in-game trade system existed to facilitate easier access to trade. 

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

So you're able to buy Hearthstone cards by abusing the system in WoW?  Does everyone know the game is so pay2win because Blizzard hands out freebies to old WoW players?

Sorry.  Strike that.  Facilitates older players abusing new players in WoW.

More failure to use the word abuse correctly. Buying hearthstone cards or random boxes in Overwatch with WoW gold instead of real money is abuse because...? Someone wanted the gold. Blizzard could just sell it outright, instead they let players sell it to other players. I'm also waiting for you to explain why you think WoW is so pay to win. I think the reality is you just don't know what the term means, because it's far less pay to win than most F2P games, including this one. 

What the system actually does is allow players who already have resources to sell them to people who want to buy them and then use that currency to buy something else. It creates synergy between real life currency spenders and in-game currency spenders. It's not "abuse." There's also nothing I can buy in WoW to win much of anything or even accelerate progression besides maybe entry level gear for raiding which I could get fairly quickly without crafted gear. There are no gold boosters or resource boosters. You can't buy raid gear unless you do some shady deal with raiders and happen to get lucky. Once again, the only remotely P2W aspect in WoW is a paid character boost, which I've personally never purchased. In Legion you could buy twink gear for a level 101 character, but the only content you can do with them is normal dungeons or farming out in the world. Not exactly winning. 

Also, if you think the system is only accessible to old players, try again. Check the WoW economy reddit and random stories of people making a million gold in a month and getting into the trade game starting from nothing. There are many markets to participate in WoW as well as ways to generate gold like the mission table (which they nerfed somehwhat so it's less self-sustaining via blood missions). You can also check sites like wowtoken.info. If the economy was doing so poorly why is the token market so popular...? There are plenty of sellers and buyers. Blizzard must be doing something right to keep interest from both sides. 

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

That's a tax on being a new and/or free player.  Could DE make the game completely pay2win and make more money?  Doubtful.  They don't have the name recognition to attract players.  We wouldn't be having this conversation right now, because I never would have started playing it.  Have had my fill of that BS.

Warframe is already more pay to win than any Blizzard game besides maybe hearthstone, though I don't play that game so I can't speak to how pay to win it really is.

Do you really not understand that? You can buy weapons, warframes, prime access and even plains resources directly from DE for plat. You can buy boosts for plat. Nothing like that exists in WoW besides the character boost. 

You support 100% of plat going to DE off direct purchases but think a tax on player to player trades is an issue? Really? It's not a "tax on new or free players" it's a tax on trading plat between players. Convenient in-game trade system = more trade = more opportunities for new players to get plat for free to buy slots and cosmetics with as well as other items from other players via plat. A better trade system is better for new players and also better for old players and also better for DE since it can create a new platinum sink if you have a tax on trades via that system. You can leave face to face trades in for people that want to bypass that tax, just as they do in other games. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Borg1611

[PatternistSlave]

Just now, Borg1611 said:

You don't know what you're talking about

As someone that's had to compete with people like you abusing a system in one game to be at an advantage in another I think I understand a hell of a lot better than you do.  I'm beyond furious, will never play another Blizzard game, and am finding it extremely difficult to be civil.  Your utter disregard for anyone but yourself is frankly disgusting.  Do not write me again.

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

As someone that's had to compete with people like you abusing a system in one game to be at an advantage in another I think I understand a hell of a lot better than you do.  I'm beyond furious, will never play another Blizzard game, and am finding it extremely difficult to be civil.  Your utter disregard for anyone but yourself is frankly disgusting.  Do not write me again.

Every response is just a quote of a small word or phrase of mine where you take one word or small concept, completely disregard everything I said, likely did not read any of it (as I can tell you didn't based on how fast you responded). 

You never actually even attempted to understand my arguments (and I do in fact know more about it than you do, which is apparent based on everything you've said). You quote one word or phrase out of context and then respond with a stream of bias. I could tell easily that you have an anti-blizzard bias and don't want to hear anything that goes against your pre-existing belief without you telling me that, but thanks for letting me know I guess. If you were more objective you would see the benefits of the systems being discussed, instead you just randomly throw hate and bias at them and think you've made an argument against them. 

Hypocrisy at its finest? You tell me I'm not listening to you when you quote tiny snippets of a single sentence or word with no context and then go on a fairly unrelated tirade of bias and nonsense about that concept and I'M the one not listening?

Also, if you don't want me to respond to you, then don't write something to me first that shows up in my notifications or hit ignore. Bye?!

[PatternistSlave]

28 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

If you were more objective you would see the benefits of the systems being discussed

Benefits to you as a veteran and ONLY you.  You've said so yourself.

23 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

A new player couldn't jump in for free, so it's not completely F2P, but for existing players it absolutely can become F2P.

You might not care about the effect your milking newer players in WoW has had on Hearthstone.  A game I enjoyed.  But I do.  Say what you want about pay2win, but at least that's an even playing field.  Veterans of WoW are getting how many extra cards just for abusing WoW's broken system (that was created to match goldsellers)?

[Borg1611]

17 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Benefits to you as a veteran and ONLY you.  You've said so yourself.

On 3/13/2018 at 2:09 PM, Borg1611 said:

I actually specifically stated that it's better for everyone (it creates a synergy between those spending real money and those wanting to spend in-game currency) and also mentioned you could see proof of people starting from scratch in WoW and making a lot of gold on places like the WoW economy reddit. It is true that when the tokens came out I already had a lot of resources in WoW because I played it for over a decade, but people can start from scratch and get into any numbers of markets or even generating gold via alt missions.

People who have played a lot less than I have have a lot more gold if they put in the time and effort to get it. I'm a fairly lazy gold maker (or goblin, as they say on the woweconomy reddit). 

18 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You might not care about the effect your milking newer players in WoW has had on Hearthstone.  A game I enjoyed.  But I do.  Say what you want about pay2win, but at least that's an even playing field.  Veterans of WoW are getting how many extra cards just for abusing WoW's broken system (that was created to match goldsellers)?

This is an issue with the business model of Hearthstone though, not of WoW tokens. The fact that you have to have specific cards to compete or whatever is potentially very pay to win, but that's not the fault of wow tokens, it's the business model of hearthstone. I have read from some hearthstone players that they can compete as F2P players and were able to complete whatever decks just from playing, but I don't know a lot about the game so I won't bother trying to argue how it works since I have zero experience with it. It does sound similar to how boosts work in a game like Warframe where you're paying to accelerate progress rather than taking time to grind out dust or decks or wtf/e it is you grind in hearthstone. 

If WoW tokens did not exist, people could be paying real money for an advantage because RNG and card packs are a thing either way. The issue here is purely hearthstone's business model, not WoW tokens making it something it already wasn't/isn't.

[Urabask]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

This is an issue with the business model of Hearthstone though, not of WoW tokens. The fact that you have to have specific cards to compete or whatever is potentially very pay to win, but that's not the fault of wow tokens, it's the business model of hearthstone. I have read from some hearthstone players that they can compete as F2P players and were able to complete whatever decks just from playing, but I don't know a lot about the game so I won't bother trying to argue how it works since I have zero experience with it. It does sound similar to how boosts work in a game like Warframe where you're paying to accelerate progress rather than taking time to grind out dust or decks or wtf/e it is you grind in hearthstone. 

The problem there is that currency gain in Hearthstone for F2P revolves largely around winning matches (you get 10 gold per three wins and daily quests many of which focus on winning with a specific class).  So if you've got a ton of WoW players that can just buy 50+ packs on release you see a lot more meta decks even at lower ranks in matchmaking.  This in turn makes it a lot more difficult to grind out your gold each day.  Most of the claims about Hearthstone F2P being reasonable are pretty dubious since they mostly revolve around using budget aggro decks that the meta quickly finds answers to. 

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

If WoW tokens did not exist, people could be paying real money for an advantage because RNG and card packs are a thing either way. The issue here is purely hearthstone's business model, not WoW tokens making it something it already wasn't/isn't.

Even in a card game like Hearthstone there are a limited number of players that are willing to spend enough money to get the cards they need.  It's a bit ridiculous to say that WoW isn't making the player population more competitive given the very large overlap in the player populations.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Urabask

[Borg1611]

6 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Even in a card game like Hearthstone the number of players there are a limited number of players that are willing to spend enough money to get the cards they need.  It's a bit ridiculous to say that WoW isn't making the player population more competitive given the very large overlap in the player populations.

My point is that card RNG/packs and the general business model of Hearthstone is the issue, not the existence of WoW tokens. More people may be willing to spend in game currency for cards than real life, sure, but the fact that they let you purchase an advantage AT ALL is the real problem, not that you can exchange wow gold for battle.net balance.

Overwatch has random loot boxes (that are ethically questionable due to gambling for cosmetics), but they have zero impact on gameplay and offer no advantage in the game at all. It was the hearthstone teams choice to make the game pay to win. The existence of Hearthstone doesn't mean that the WoW token system wasn't a great F2P portal within WoW itself. It also allows people to buy entire games with WoW gold and cosmetics with no advantage in games like OW.

Hearthstone being pay to win may be a problem, but it's not the fault of a system that otherwise works incredibly well on Battle.net. 

[Urabask]

3 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

My point is that card RNG/packs and the general business model of Hearthstone is the issue, not the existence of WoW tokens. More people may be willing to spend in game currency for cards than real life, sure, but the fact that they let you purchase an advantage AT ALL is the real problem, not that you can exchange wow gold for battle.net balance.

Overwatch has random loot boxes (that are ethically questionable due to gambling for cosmetics), but they have zero impact on gameplay and offer no advantage in the game at all. It was the hearthstone teams choice to make the game pay to win. The existence of Hearthstone doesn't mean that the WoW token system wasn't a great F2P portal within WoW itself. It also allows people to buy entire games with WoW gold and cosmetics with no advantage in games like OW.

Hearthstone being pay to win may be a problem, but it's not the fault of a system that otherwise works incredibly well on Battle.net. 

It is a fault of that system because the player population would become competitive more slowly without the influence that WoW has on it.

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, Urabask said:

It is a fault of that system because the player population would become competitive more slowly without the influence that WoW has on it.

They could have designed Hearthstone to have zero pay to win aspects at all. That's a choice of the Hearhstone developers. They made it pay to win, which may be made worse by wow tokens, but if you look at all of b.net as a whole, tokens are a genius system that works well in WoW, Overwatch and everywhere else on B.net. The games pay for themselves + other games + other random crap in other games.

Also, the only reason wow tokens were even brought up in this thread is because they're a great example of how well a player to player synergy can be created between people buying currency (like plat) and those that want to trade for it. So if the main objection to WoW tokens is their impact on hearthstone, that wouldn't even relate to Warframe since plat is a single game currency, unlike battle.net balance which can be used across all of battle.net. 

Creating a better trade system in Warframe would increase platinum flow between those that buy it and those that want to trade for it. That would increase the number of sales of things for plat from the market, just as there was an increase in sales of WoW cosmetics from the shop and Overwatch boxes and apparently and unfortunately Heathstone cards. People unwilling to spend real money on those things would be willing to trade for the currency via things they have in game. They still end up being paid for, just indirectly. That's why the token works so well. It increases sales by getting people unwilling to spend their own money to essentially spend someone else's by trading for a currency they bought with real money. 

[Urabask]

1 hour ago, Borg1611 said:

They could have designed Hearthstone to have zero pay to win aspects at all. That's a choice of the Hearhstone developers. They made it pay to win, which may be made worse by wow tokens, but if you look at all of b.net as a whole, tokens are a genius system that works well in WoW, Overwatch and everywhere else on B.net. The games pay for themselves + other games + other random crap in other games.

Also, the only reason wow tokens were even brought up in this thread is because they're a great example of how well a player to player synergy can be created between people buying currency (like plat) and those that want to trade for it. So if the main objection to WoW tokens is their impact on hearthstone, that wouldn't even relate to Warframe since plat is a single game currency, unlike battle.net balance which can be used across all of battle.net. 

Creating a better trade system in Warframe would increase platinum flow between those that buy it and those that want to trade for it. That would increase the number of sales of things for plat from the market, just as there was an increase in sales of WoW cosmetics from the shop and Overwatch boxes and apparently and unfortunately Heathstone cards. People unwilling to spend real money on those things would be willing to trade for the currency via things they have in game. They still end up being paid for, just indirectly. That's why the token works so well. It increases sales by getting people unwilling to spend their own money to essentially spend someone else's by trading for a currency they bought with real money. 

You would have to be entirely ignorant of CCGs to think they could ever make one that isn't inherently P2W.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Urabask

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, Urabask said:

You would have to be entirely ignorant of CCGs to think they could ever make one that isn't inherently P2W.

Is that meant to be an argument against WoW tokens in some way? I'm still unconvinced that WoW tokens weren't a brilliant system that created an amazing synergy between paying and F2P customers if that's the case. WoW tokens are incredibly popular and have likely substantially increased the sales of WoW shop items, OW boxes etc. 

If these card games are inherently P2W why complain about them being P2W or argue against an amazing system like the WoW token because of the inherently flawed nature of ccgs? It works really well with every other game on B.net. If you don't want people to buy cards with WoW token money you don't want people to buy cards in general or want some limitation on how many they can buy over a period of time, which again, is an issue with Hearthstone, not the WoW token in general. You claim they're inherently P2W and then complain when people are paying to win?

Also, again, as I mentioned in my previous post, the primary reason WoW tokens were a part of this thread was because they demonstrate how well more easily accessible trade would benefit Warframe, which has nothing to do with Hearthstone or WoW tokens impact on Hearthstone. 

[PatternistSlave]

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I actually specifically stated that it's better for everyone

You can say whatever you like, that doesn't make it true.  You're going to sit there and try to tell me newer players on top of a subscription fee should be paying you and do for no reason whatsoever?

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

This is an issue with the business model of Hearthstone though, not of WoW tokens.

It's an issue with both because Blizzard connected them.  Their business models are now intertwined.  I've looked it up.  I was playing when they made WoW tokens able to be used on other games.  It was around the same time Hearthstone became significantly more pay2win.  Coincidence?  I think not.

[Borg1611]

3 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You can say whatever you like, that doesn't make it true.  You're going to sit there and try to tell me newer players on top of a subscription fee should be paying you and do for no reason whatsoever?

What are you talking about? You really just don't understand how it works at all. Nobody has to pay me or anyone else anything. People buy gold for real money via the token system or rather they buy a token for real money then sell it for gold on the AH and people with gold buy the token and then convert the token into real money. Nobody has to do this. They choose to if they want to buy something for gold such as a fancy mount that you can only buy for gold. 

You could farm the gold yourself. You could trade in various markets for the gold. Or you could simply not get the gold to begin with as you don't need gold beyond repair gold that you'll just get more than enough of via actually playing if you don't care about cosmetics or consumables (that you could also make yourself if you wanted to or sometimes a guild will provide its raiders with consumables so they don't even have to buy or make their own). 

A new player is also 100% capable of making gold and then converting that into battle.net balance so they don't have to continue to pay for the game if that's what they'd prefer. 

I think I've explained it pretty in depth in many long posts so I'm not sure what else to tell you. Your perception of the system is just way off and you won't listen to any idea that contradicts your pre-existing perception of it. 

6 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

It's an issue with both because Blizzard connected them.  Their business models are now intertwined.  I've looked it up.  I was playing when they made WoW tokens able to be used on other games.  It was around the same time Hearthstone became significantly more pay2win.  Coincidence?  I think not.

No. It was exactly as pay to win before. Look it up harder next time. You may have had more people willing to pay via gold than via real currency, but nothing prevented anyone from buying cards before the tokens. Being pay to win is a choice of the creators of the game. You apparently are annoyed by the number of people paying to win rather than with the fact that it was possible to begin with. You're misdirecting your anger with the game's design to the tokens. It's misplaced. 

Though again, Hearthstone has nothing to do with the main point with tokens as they relate to platinum and warframe since plat is a single game currency and there is no CCG to spend plat on anyway. Making trade more convenient in Warframe actually would make it less pay to win than it already is as you'd make plat purchases more accessible to completely F2P players, which is what happened on B.net with the tokens as many people buy more things with gold via the token system than they would have been willing to buy with real life money. 

[Urabask]

2 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

No. It was exactly as pay to win before. Look it up harder next time. You may have had more people willing to pay via gold than via real currency, but nothing prevented anyone from buying cards before the tokens. Being pay to win is a choice of the creators of the game. You apparently are annoyed by the number of people paying to win rather than with the fact that it was possible to begin with. You're misdirecting your anger with the game's design to the tokens. It's misplaced. 

They also integrated adventures into expansions so that there are three sets per year instead of two at the same time they started letting people convert wow tokens into blizzard balance.  This meant that instead of two expansions where you get cards via packs and two adventures where you just pay $15 you have three expansions with packs.  If you really can't put 1+1 together and get 2 here I don't know what to say.

[Aggh]

11 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Making trade more convenient in Warframe actually would make it less pay to win than it already is as you'd make plat purchases more accessible to completely F2P players, which is what happened on B.net with the tokens as many people buy more things with gold via the token system than they would have been willing to buy with real life money. 

Wrong.  Prices would drop and it would be harder to earn plat.  And paying players wouldn't have to spend as much on trades so they wouldn't need to buy as much plat.  It'd make it more p2win since it'd be significantly more convenient to buy plat than grind for it, but overall plat purchased wouldn't increase since people wouldn't need to buy as much for trades.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Aggh

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, Urabask said:

If you really can't put 1+1 together and get 2 here I don't know what to say.

Exactly what I'd say to you and the other guy going on about Hearthstone. Hearthstone being P2W has literally nothing to do with the discussion or why WoW tokens are a good model and how they relate to Warframe and platinum.

But yet again, the WoW token system has been an amazing success for people who play literally any other game on Battle.net. Heathstone being a P2Wfest that you already admitted is in an inherently pay to win genre is not a meaningful point against tokens in general and is even less relevant to the discussion in this thread. 

Just now, Aggh said:

Wrong.  Prices would drop and it would be harder to earn plat.  And paying players wouldn't have to spend as much on trades so they wouldn't need to buy as much plat.  It'd make it more p2win since it'd be significantly more convenient to buy plat than grind for it, but overall plat purchases since people wouldn't need to buy as much for trades.

Rivens would easily maintain value. Rivens would be less pay to win with more accessible trade. F2P players would have a more accessible avenue to get plat once they were at a point where they could do sorties. Players unwilling to buy large amounts of plat or participate in our outdated trade system would now have access to rivens they otherwise wouldn't have (aka less pay to win).  

I'd be perfectly happy with them just implementing a Riven market first in the game. If it works out well they can add more markets and/or expand on crafting systems that could potentially also work well with a more accessible trade system. 

I don't personally agree that everything else would be worthless if they had a more expansive trade system for more than Rivens, which I've already commented on in past posts, but without re-posting what's been said in another really long post, I'll just say that not everyone agrees with your assumptions. 

[PatternistSlave]

10 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

People buy gold for real money via the token system or rather they buy a token for real money then sell it for gold on the AH and people with gold buy the token and then convert the token into real money.

Then they're paying you, genius.  There's a reason they're paying you.  Those 10+ years seem likely.  Inordinate amounts of time or money.  The hallmark of every pay2win game there is.  That I wouldn't care so much about, but then it gets really shady.  See you're now able to spend this money you received from newer players on Hearthstone cards.  Meaning new players there are at a disadvantage and are encouraged to spend more if they want to be competitive.  So that's two entirely separate games where newer players are for some reason beholden to you.  That's just you.  What about these people that make a living with a fleet of characters?  Let's not forget about the D3 AH you also abused for personal gain.  No.  I haven't forgotten about that.  That's narcissistic garbage preying on anyone dumb enough to pick up a Blizzard-Activision game.  Reminds me.  Can you use these tokens to buy the loot boxes in Destiny?

[Borg1611]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Then they're paying you, genius.  There's a reason they're paying you.  Those 10+ years seem likely.  Inordinate amounts of time or money.  The hallmark of every pay2win game there is.  That I wouldn't care so much about, but then it gets really shady.  See you're now able to spend this money you received from newer players on Hearthstone cards.  Meaning new players there are at a disadvantage and are encouraged to spend more if they want to be competitive.  So that's two entirely separate games where newer players are for some reason beholden to you.  That's just you.  What about these people that make a living with a fleet of characters?  Let's not forget about the D3 AH you also abused for personal gain.  No.  I haven't forgotten about that.  That's narcissistic garbage preying on anyone dumb enough to pick up a Blizzard-Activision game.  Reminds me.  Can you use these tokens to buy the loot boxes in Destiny?

You keep posting snippets out of context and then making nonsensical posts. I tried to bring the topic back to the actual topic by repeatedly pointing out how WoW tokens relate to plat in this game, but you apparently have some extreme hostility towards Blizzard you need to deal with. 

You claimed some nonsense about new players having to pay a sub and me. This was nonsense. You were wrong and continue to demonstrate you don't understand the topic you're constantly posting about. I pointed out that nobody has to buy gold. Some people do choose to because they want something that they do not need in order to play the game. This is a choice. It is not pay to win. There is nothing you can gain of substance in term of game progress in WoW outside of a character boost, which I've mentioned several times already. 

You also can not make a living via legitimate transactions as it is confined to battle.net balance. You can't spend it outside of Battle.net. You could make money via paypal briefly in D3 via the AH but that obviously no longer exists. 

You continue to make BS nonsensical claims that I abused various systems because you are extremely bias and hostile in addition to not understanding the things you're talking about. I did not abuse anything in either D3 or WoW. I make easy passive gold in WoW via alt missions with minimal time or effort. They made it that way and could have changed it for over a year at this point (actually it's a continuation of garrisons from WoD, but made even easier since they created an app to speed up the process, so they've had multiple years at this point to change it if they felt it was wrong or abusive rather than doing exactly what they probably expected people to do). You can also make gold in several other ways, feel free to check out the woweconomy reddit for all the supposedly abusive ways to make gold (that was sarcasm). This does not involve anything abusive. You don't know what that means. It doesn't mean "doing something I don't understand or approve of," if that helps you. 

I made easy money casually flipping items and occasionally selling something I found in D3. Hurray games that pay for themselves via normal play? That's also not abusive by any logical rational definition of that word. It was designed the way it was designed. I didn't have to exploit anything or do anything especially "creative." I used it as it was intended to be used and it worked. Yea me? Others had multiple accounts and put in a lot more effort into it and made a lot more out of it. Good for them I guess. 

I have no idea what you can or can't buy in Destiny 2 as I cancelled my pre-order after trying it in beta and realizing it was a terrible game. If you can purchase loot for money, that's again an issue with game design, not tokens. See Overwatch for an example of a game where there is zero pay to win aspect yet still has interaction with tokens potentially (though I do have issues with gambling box business models for other reasons). 

It's also ironic how hostile you are towards the WoW token system since they are actually quite similar to platinum in this game. Everything purchased for plat was paid for by someone at some point unless you won it in a stream, just as anything bought with b.net balance that you could have obtained via a token was also paid for by someone else at some point.