So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[(PSN)HAVOCS-Regret]

On 2/25/2018 at 12:40 PM, SpectroSinjkai0 said:

The reason is because too many players are afraid of the thought of an auction house, however if we present the idea of an AH just for rivens first then it may gain favor seeing as rivens are a hard item to link sometimes and impossible to sell unveiled in warframe.market. This is very possible but does not have to be the exact same way as WoW since warframe is free however for this to work it'd need to be very exclusive to prime sets, arcanes, and unique rivens because those would take a huge load off of the rest of the market

Quite a good idea here, instead of a full AH, make it only work for a small range of things.  Then DE could test the impact it makes

[PatternistSlave]

12 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

D3 you get gear from mobs which you could sell on AH. In warframe you get gear from mobs which you could sell on AH.

Fixed.

12 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Successful economy is basically when the money flows.

We're talking about a game here.  Where players playing is what makes a good economy.  Not some BS you learned in home ec.

[Blackgimli]

Le 2/24/2018 à 19:35, Fenwyn a dit :

It's beyond sickening having to go through all the drama of belligerent players, sorting through an disappearing mess to sort through, where in every single MMO it's a simple search query, purchase, and equip.  No drama, just done.  Everyone will post that it isn't so bad, that there's another website, all these other solutions, but the fact that there are such solutions in the first place is the issue.  It's still a headache to navigate trading for half an hour or longer to find what you want, it's still a headache to have to play guessing games with morons who won't just give you a flat honest price and expect you to correctly guess right away based on any of the arbitrary numbers listed on a 3rd party website, and it's still a headache to not have a firm comparison of final price points to have some idea if you're being ripped off or not.

 

Please, please, please DE, add an auction house.

I agree that the clutter of trade chat can be intimidating, especially to newer players, but it only requires a filter to reduce the clutter, so no to a general AH. Truthfully newer players suffer the most in trades due to their naivety to the value of items. That is where 3rd party sites like Waframe Market come in. However even, the third party sites are not to be taken as the 'true' price of items but a general basis for buying and selling prices (though the buying prices really need to be more realistic, I mean I see more outrageous buying prices than selling prices on the site). One can still haggle prices and it is still the free choice of someone to buy or sell, so honestly other than the clutter of the chat to me the only thing that needs an AH is rivens because of how variable their stats and prices are. Rivens have added alot of clutter to the already cluttered trade chat and with their variability you get multiple instances of a single riven when asking for one and lets not talk for selling one given how hard it is to link a riven in chat.

[torsoreaper]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

Fixed.

We're talking about a game here.  Where players playing is what makes a good economy.  Not some BS you learned in home ec.

With all due respect, you're the one that sounds like you only took home ec.  Let's take your example and say Warframe didn't add any players over the next 3 years but all of them play the crap out of the game and none of them buy plat, is that good or bad for DE?  It's probably bad. Let's take it a step further, let's even say warframe ADDS millions of players but none of them buy plat.  Still bad. 

 

DE makes money from plat and prime subs.  Without money flow and plat sinks, DE isn't really making money.  If DE can increase the plat sinks in the game while keeping players happy, they will make more money because people will have to increase their platinum purchases in order to replenish the supply of money in the system.  If players can simply not buy platinum and only trade it back and forth with eachother, DE doesn't make any money from that which is bad.

Edited March 20, 2018 by torsoreaper
edited for clarity

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, torsoreaper said:

With all due respect, you're the one that sounds like you only took home ec. 

He literally said he was using what he learned in home economics as the basis for everything he's been saying.

1 hour ago, torsoreaper said:

Still bad.

Not necessarily.  A game in either of those scenarios could succeed with a different business model.

1 hour ago, torsoreaper said:

DE makes money from plat and prime subs.  Without money flow and plat sinks, DE isn't really making money. 

They might be able to make more with loot boxes.  That doesn't make it good for the game.

[Draugurr]

Warframe market exists. Makes trading a whole lot easier. But i guess we can pretend it doesn't exist.

[Kaminariss]

8 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

He literally said he was using what he learned in home economics as the basis for everything he's been saying.

I believe you have some sort of delusions. Did you miss the part I said I work in ecommerce sector for about 8 years and counting? While I am still no expert, you did not learn economics at all, lets face the truth. 

 

8 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Not necessarily.  A game in either of those scenarios could succeed with a different business model.

No, if players do not spend any money on the game, then game is either dead or you will see advertisement popups in it. Nobody works for free (DE is not charity company), time is not free either.

8 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

They might be able to make more with loot boxes.  That doesn't make it good for the game.

OR they could put trade tax in plat/ducats in AH and make game better. Game evolves because of money, if they stop earning money the game is dead.

 

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Fixed.
We're talking about a game here.  Where players playing is what makes a good economy.  Not some BS you learned in home ec.

If you really think Diablo 3 gear system is similar to Warframe then you might want to visit doctor as there seems to be something interfering with your vision.

Economy rules apply also to games. It is not some magical place where money flows because of some imaginary rules. It is just simplified economy model.

[PatternistSlave]

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Did you miss the part I said I work in ecommerce sector for about 8 years and counting? While I am still no expert, you did not learn economics at all, lets face the truth. 

 

I don't care how many of your GI Joes you've sold on ebay.  We're talking about a game economy.  It's not about the most efficient system possible.  It's about a system that undermines the game the least while offering the most benefit.

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

No, if players do not spend any money on the game, then game is either dead or you will see advertisement popups in it. Nobody works for free (DE is not charity company), time is not free either

Never said they did, but monetization should not be at the expense of gameplay.  That's when you get into areas like Battlefront and EA.  DE has adopted a strategy of something more akin to LoL  Where you attract enough players and they're happy to spend money on your game.

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

make game better.

Warframe is very unlikely to have succeeded with a different monetization strategy and is better than a lot of AAA titles that gouge every penny they can out of players.

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Economy rules apply also to games. It is not some magical place where money flows because of some imaginary rules. It is just simplified economy model

You sure you don't work for EA or maybe Activision?  This is entertainment and no the same rules do not apply.  For example.  Street performers.  You could stand there and watch for free.  But if they're good you pay them anyway.  Same basic idea with true free2play.

Edited March 21, 2018 by PatternistSlave

[JalakBali]

Because any auction house is prone to market manipulation. An entire team of economists are required to maintain it which DE has none nor the experience. Auction house is not as simple as "put up price you want, let someone buy it whenever" because the database might balloon like crazy and become expensive and it would also put your entire economy open for manipulation and monopoly.

 

Trade is annoying now but it's practically impossible to manipulate at all times.

[Kaminariss]

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

We're talking about a game economy.  It's not about the most efficient system possible.  It's about a system that undermines the game the least while offering the most benefit.

No, that is delusion. Game economy is still economy, just with simplified model.

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

That's when you get into areas like Battlefront and EA.  DE has adopted a strategy of something more akin to LoL  Where you attract enough players and they're happy to spend money on your game.

That is not argument, AH would not be closer to loot boxes. And it works regardless of how many players you got. If players are satisfied they will spend money on the game. That's it. Also game cannot die out, and to so, you need people who pay.

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Warframe is very unlikely to have succeeded with a different monetization strategy and is better than a lot of AAA titles that gouge every penny they can out of players.

Again, that is not argument against AH, funny enough, it is the opposite. AH would only help players that don't want to use their real life money and pay with their "time" instead.

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

This is entertainment and no the same rules do not apply.  For example.  Street performers.  You could stand there and watch for free.  But if they're good you pay them anyway.  Same basic idea with true free2play.

Yes that is also included in economic model, donations. It is nothing new and has been for quite some time in real world. It only proves you are not familiar with economics.

 

1 hour ago, JalakBali said:

Because any auction house is prone to market manipulation. An entire team of economists are required to maintain it which DE has none nor the experience.

False. Automated systems has been around for quite long time and they work pretty well. Slap some restrictions and you don't need team of economists. Especially not with so slim market as it is in Warframe.

[JalakBali]

Just now, Kaminariss said:

False. Automated systems has been around for quite long time and they work pretty well. Slap some restrictions and you don't need team of economists. Especially not with so slim market as it is in Warframe.

Care to define these 'restrictions'?

 

Here's a funny thing too: the slimmer the market, the easier it is to manipulate.

[(PSN)Borengar629]

I hate to break it for most here who (like myself) want an auction house, but it is likely never to happen, because of the grindy nature of the game itself. Pretty much the same reason trade tax will never be eliminated.

The time you spend in trade chat is time you do not grind and therefore do not progress through the content of the game. This is a net win for DE. Same with trade tax. It is a money sink and therefore also a gate stopping you from progressing through actual content.

If trade tax would be removed and an auction house implemented the whole balance of the game would shift towards the fast food mentality most games encourage nowerdays. It would also force DE to pump out far more content in far less time and therefore hurt the quality of the game as a whole.

Think of it that way. There is a set amount of content that you / or better the average player needs a set amount of time to consume. If there are no gates implemented stopping this progress, the consumption will progress in a linear fashion leading to many players reaching the end of the content fast and at the same time. That puts pressure onto the developper to deliver more content. As this content drop is likely smaller than the base game, the process repeats itself only faster this time. This directly leads into a downward spiral for both the players as well as the developper.

But if you implememtn certain blockers like, trade tax, the need to actually interact with other players to trade, or even the 24 hours cooldown on mastery rank test, that prevent you from leveling new gear faster you a stretch the set amount of time needed to comsume your game and b (much more importantly) spread the playercount reaching the end of your game accross a much larger time window as not every player trades the same amount of time and not every player immidiately takes mastery test after test as soon as available.

All of these messures are necessary to ensure a quality game and in the end benefit us as players much more than we realize.

Like I said, sorry to break it to you but that's reality.

[Kaminariss]

1 minute ago, JalakBali said:

Care to define these 'restrictions'?

Just look at other games with AH and their restrictions (WoW, Tera online, L2R), I've told them many times in this thread.

2 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

Here's a funny thing too: the slimmer the market, the easier it is to manipulate.

Slimmer in terms of people who participate, yes (and it is perfectly possible right now, you can manipulate both trade chat and warframe.market). But I meant slim as: not so many things that can be bought. Funny enough, its way harder to manipulate AH than current " trading system".

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Borengar629 said:

But if you implememtn certain blockers like, trade tax, the need to actually interact with other players to trade

And here is where you are wrong. That also invalidates your whole argument. You were not far from truth but missed the point.

Warframe.market exists, it is not an issue to either buy or sell things. It is not a blocker and has no significant impact on the length of gameplay.

Cooldowns only slightly affect length of the gameplay as you don't actually need to be logged in for weapon to finish building. The only blockers right now are:

Riven mods - unfortunately there is no challenging content for them to be mandatory.
Arcanes - same as above.
Star chart - you need to do all these missions first
Leveling and forming weapons

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Borengar629 said:

The time you spend in trade chat is time you do not grind and therefore do not progress through the content of the game. This is a net win for DE.

Or use warframe.market and find item you need in seconds. However this is not a "win" for DE. They do not want us to sit idle in dojo. Thats the straight way to loose players.

[JalakBali]

3 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Just look at other games with AH and their restrictions (WoW, Tera online, L2R), I've told them many times in this thread.

Slimmer in terms of people who participate, yes (and it is perfectly possible right now, you can manipulate both trade chat and warframe.market). But I meant slim as: not so many things that can be bought. Funny enough, its way harder to manipulate AH than current " trading system".

No, the less things being available means it is easier to corner the market. The current 'trading system' which is practically an open, road-side, first come first served market, is hard to manipulate because you cannot tell how deep is the market. Even when the market is shallow, you still can't tell because you have very little indicator of the supply and demand.

 

 

None of the systems you mentioned would work. Here's a hint of why it would not work: inventory space.

[(PSN)Borengar629]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Kaminariss:

Or use warframe.market and find item you need in seconds. However this is not a "win" for DE. They do not want us to sit idle in dojo. Thats the straight way to loose players.

I am sorry but I strongly disagree. Neither don't they want us not to sit idly in our dojos nor is it a straight way to loose players. Some players, myself included for example, actually like to take a break from the grind from time to time and hang around in trade chat. Also like it or not distracting and straight up blocking players from consuming content is a necessity in game development. There is no way a developper can keep up with the consumption of content by players without either delaying it or tuning the down the quality immensely.

Also there is a lot of fun to be had in trading in Warframe. I usually give a tip when buying something. Most players are very much taken by surprise by that. I always calculate a price at wich I am willing to buy. If a seller offers at a lower price than I have calculated I always share the difference. This has sparked a lot of really good conversations. I also do the same when seeling. When I calculated a price and would get more I give my buyer a discount. Many players are so surprised by that that they throw a lot of stuff my way because they feel like it. That got me an Ignis Wraith at a cost of 2p for example.

I understand that I am far from being the average when it comes to trading and also that is not to everybody's liking but it is a good system nevertheless and one with no need for DE to ever touch it again.

And sites like Warframe.market being out there is not a valid argument. There are many third party sites dealing with certain aspects of certain games. There is no need for a developer to implement everything in a game only because someone else thought it to be a good idea and turned it into a website. Think of it that way... there is a codex ingame. I bet my left eye that the wiki gets far more attention though.

And my final point (and most likely the most important)... if someone already provides an auction house like service to players, what would be DE's incentive to do it themselves and invest resources into an implementation. In my opinion the wish for an auction house is most likely motivated by the idea of "earing" plat while not even being online which is not possible with third party sites. And that my friend is a questionable motive for a developper to act upon.

[PatternistSlave]

3 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Game economy is still economy, just with simplified model.

So long as you refuse to accept gameplay and enjoyment having any bearing on this game we're talking about there is little point to further discussion.  The most effective, efficient system is not the most fun nor does it create the most fun.

[Volinus7]

What if someone 'enjoys' watching prices drop to 1p?

Well people who regularly buy plats(great supporters who pump DE revenue every quarter) and want to buy more stuffs via trading for example... 

Oversupply works well for paid players, doesn't it? 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Volinus7

[PatternistSlave]

21 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

What if someone 'enjoys' watching prices drop to 1p?

Well people who regularly buy plats(great supporters who pump DE revenue every quarter) and want to buy more stuffs via trading for example... 

Oversupply works well for paid players, doesn't it? 

Not really.  Buying your way to victory has very limited appeal.  And there aren't free players to engage with which makes the game far less fun.

[Volinus7]

16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Not really.  Buying your way to victory has very limited appeal.  And there aren't free players to engage with which makes the game far less fun.

D3 devs thought like that too, they removed AH along with the whole trading system so people can't immediately buy powers without playing the game. 

But it's the whole point of Warframe trading, isn't it? To buy stuffs you don't want to grind by yourself. 

 

Suddenly the whole WF trading sounds like a big clump of hypocrisy lol. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Volinus7

[(PSN)Borengar629]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb PatternistSlave:

Not really.  Buying your way to victory has very limited appeal.  And there aren't free players to engage with which makes the game far less fun.

There are players that are only interested in outperforming others because that means fun to them. You should not forget about that as they are not really few and far between. Some men just wanna watch the world burn ;)

[PatternistSlave]

3 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

D3 devs thought like that too, they removed AH along with the whole trading system so people can't immediately buy powers without playing the game. 

Yes they did.

3 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

But it's the whole point of Warframe trading, isn't it? To buy stuffs you don't want to grind by yourself.

Yeah and it's gamebreaking to some extent.  The idea being it's limited as to not overtake the game itself, allow players to skip only limited aspects they don't enjoy and free players an avenue to premium items.  There is a better argument for removing trading altogether than there is for an AH.  I think barter is pretty fun and social tho.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Borengar629 said:

There are players that are only interested in outperforming others because that means fun to them.

Yeah I'm not crying myself to sleep concerned over them.  They have enough games to wave their wallets around in.

[CarrotSalad]

If you want to see how easy it is to influence take a vacation to those gaming cyber cafes in Phillipines, Malaysia or Indonesia.. See what the spare machines are doing when the cafes are empty. They're botting, they're selling, they're hoarding and they're influencing the market prices. The locations are a hub where ingames items are traded for real money. Where platinum currency can be bypassed altogether. This is why i was against warframe even implementing trading to begin with because theres too much experienced greed that knows to how exploit and influence mmo markets especially with a global game.

Trading halls can be automated by bots. When that happens you're suddenly empowering anyone with the ability to run multiple VM's or multiple PC's to control the market. Then you have to bring in an economist or 2 to keep things in check and run flash events and frequent adjustments to drop rates. Which in itself also opens the door for GM corruption as we've seen first hand from companies like Asiasoft and Nexon.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Most games with Auction Houses experience several common and abusable problems:

Infinite listing of items in most games means that as long as they can farm it, they can list it, and they can ruin listing records in seconds with multiple accounts listing hundreds of items with the price direction they want. They also use a single in-game currency that is infinite and generally has only one use in-game, and can be created either/or by pure enemy drops, or selling junk to NPCs.

A Warframe "Auction House" (or asynchronous trading system with a searchable listing and buyouts) could have these preventative measures:

• MR trading limits per day limits how much 'damage' can be done, even with many accounts - each account could do a maximum of 25 trades a day - they could even limit it to half your MR rank for these more convenient transactions.
• Credit fees to list, and sales tax of platinum on completed trades - makes fake listings very costly - even if they successfully make trades to lower or raise prices, a platinum fee on each successful transaction will take a big chunk of out potential profits - requiring a larger startup investment on any potential manipulation maneuver.
• Automated buyouts will force "manipulators" to sell to ANYONE who buys their listing, not just their other accounts who may not snatch it up in time, thus they take even more losses - not just for the undercut price they listed, but the loss of the item as well, so they can't use it again.
• The premium currency of "Platinum" must be created by purchases with real money to engage in in-game trades, not primarily an infinitely farmed in-game resource like credits (though still needed for listing fees). This prevents "out-of-control inflation" that you usually see in games that use the in-game currency only, so inflation like that isn't going to impact this economy - this is usually the biggest fear about AH's ... not prices dropping to nothing.

And more... those are just a few off the top of my head. A couple unique to Warframe, another couple taken from good examples of AH's I've seen in other games.

 

[Cetus_Christ]

we need auction house not only that but because of the brainlets that play this game no one knows how to price rivens

[helioth137]

Still think Digital extremes is missing out on making cash by keeping trade chat and 1 to 1 trading the only mode of trading.

A well designed auction house with fees adjusted to whatever they see fit would be good for the game and also bring in money by players paying for convenience.

There may be a few anti bot policies / procedures and things they have to implement but i think it would be qorth it.

My gut feeling tells me a lot of people give up on the game because they dislike trade chat. Vice versa more people would stay play and pay if trading was convenient.

Edited March 22, 2018 by helioth137