Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[wizardeiges]

TLDR;  Why stop with maiming strike when it makes almost no difference for star chart but warframes themselves completely disable hoards of enemies if not rapidly kills them at incredibly long ranges. If we start nerfing everything that kills or disables then warframe loses integral parts that make it what it is.

Why stop at removing maiming strike? remove all melee weapons from the game because any crit build can practically one shot anything and everything up to sortie level REGARDLESS of maiming strike. Maiming strike only makes melee more viable for long survival runs where enemies are 150+.  All star chart missions have enemies that die to one hit from a very basic crit build WITHOUT MAIMING STRIKE. Let me repeat that.      All star chart missions have enemies that die to one hit from a very basic crit build WITHOUT MAIMING STRIKE.

Nerf mesa too,she makes maiming strike look like nothing. 

Nerf excalibur too,his attacks pierce and do more damage than a maiming strike ever could at incredible range and all people do is spam the same attack.

Nerf rhino,he actually completely disables enemies. At least those ready to be killed by a slide attack are able to shoot back. Rhino just takes all the "fun" out of it.

Nova disables enemies too,nerf pls.

Volts electricity stun locks enemies. Remove it from the game or rework please.

Zephyr,now this OP heap of OP'ness disables hoards of enemies and her 2 knocks enemies over forever locking them in a state that prevents them from attacking,removing all challenge from the game.

Remove guns from the game,the ability to kill enemies at a far range needs to be fixed because this is way to overpowered.

Frosts 4 disables enemies by freezing them solid,please remove it. A disabled enemy might as well not exist.

Saryn? she can destroy enemies beyond level 500 by herself with ease. I want my enemies to be impossible to kill so please remove her abilities.

Mag can lock down entire zones and enemies. Remove her abilities pls.

Zephys 3 makes bullets impossible to hit you so the 2 knock down spam continues without issue. Just remove all her abilities because any ability that disables a enemy or kills them is way to overpowered.

Inaros is practically invincible with the right build,please remove him from the game. I'm tired of him being able to take more bullets than me.

Hydroid can completely escape fighting,nerf pls.
Hydroids tentacles disable enemies,nerf pls.

Vaubans 4 disables enemies,nerf pls.

Mirage outputs way to much damage with her 1,nerf pls.

Chroma is required for all eidolon fighting and I dont have him,please remove him from the game because he's powerful and I don't want to put in the time to get him.

Valkyrs 4 literally makes her invincible,please remove this ability.

Wukong? you know we were getting to him. He just cant stay dead! nerf pls.
Nerf his cloud too,invincibility is way to overpowered.

Limbo can lock down an entire area for like 50 seconds,please nerf.

Trinity can repeatedly heal an ENTIRE team,please remove bless.

Trinity makes energy orbs useless,please remove her abilities.
Octavia and loki and ivaras cloaking allows they to remove themselves from being hit,this is overpowered and needs nerfed asap.

Oberons ability to basically cancel out all debuffs is ridiculously overpowered,please nerf.

OR

We could not nerf everything under the sun and just enjoy the game. This isnt destiny,everything doesn't need to be nerfed into oblivion to the point weapons might as well not exist in the game.

Nothing about maiming strike makes it useful for anything star chart when a basic crit build WITHOUT maiming strike will practically one shot everything anyways.
If anything,maiming strike needs a buff so people who play long survival games have melee being more useful.  Not like it'd impact star chart missions anyways as i've stated even without maiming strike you can easily melee everything without issue.

Those of us who play warframe want to feel like a frame built for war. Strong weapons and strong characters. The game isn't about picking daisies or rock climbing.   It's about war with factions that want to control the universe.  If I felt like glass while swinging around a wet noodle then I'd hate this game and I bet many others would too.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by wizardeiges

[sleepychewbacca]

24 minutes ago, Elrond_McBong said:

thats not how it works

Well, if you're referring to how players can get matched up with each other even if ignoring one another, I think it does. I blocked someone by putting them on ignore, and there was a period of time where they couldnt /join me. 

Unless you're referring to leaving the squad. With all the new players coming in, the bad ones have jaded me to the point where I just don't care anymore. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by sleepychewbacca

[rune_me]

Just now, sleepychewbacca said:

Well, if you're referring to how players can get matched up with each other even if ignoring one another, I'm not sure if it actually works. 

But if it makes you feel better, if I see your name in a pub, and I have a Meme Strike Atterax, I'll leave the squad. You have my statement here as proof. 

I think he meant that ignore has never been anything but a chat function. It ignores all chat messages from the ignored user. It has no effect on matchmaking (and never claimed to).

[sleepychewbacca]

Just now, rune_me said:

I think he meant that ignore has never been anything but a chat function. It ignores all chat messages from the ignored user. It has no effect on matchmaking (and never claimed to).

Yeah, I edited this to say a bit more on it, essentially, I remember it causing some issues with a clannie I did not like, and I remember him not being able to join me on missions. Could have been another bug maybe?  

 

[Vindicus8235]

Ignore function definitely does not prevent you from being matched with someone.  Tried it and disproved it 5 minutes later by being matched with someone I'd just ignored.  There is no reprieve from the slide attackers.  I have at least one in almost every game I play, and often 2 or even all 3 teammates scoliac/atteraxing it up.  Talk about variety.

[Vindicus8235]

Just now, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Another reason most things in the game gets nerfed. Just pathetic. Lol. Just go play a different game. *snip*

Naw I think I'll continue playing Warframe, thanks for the suggestion though.

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

2 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Naw I think I'll continue playing Warframe, thanks for the suggestion though.

Yea take a little snip but disregard all the other valid points I made. Real clever.

[wizardeiges]

1 minute ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Yea take a little snip but disregard all the other valid points I made. Real clever.

I'm getting the feeling they don't want a discussion at all. They just want the fun to be sucked out of the game. That's what I get from their posts anyways.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Yea take a little snip but disregard all the other valid points I made. Real clever.

If you start a post with telling everyone who don’t agree with you to get out of your game and play something else, and end it with calling people who don’t agree with you kids, then you really shouldn’t be surprised if those people ignore everything you say. You invalidated your own points.

[Vindicus8235]

1 minute ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Yea take a little snip but disregard all the other valid points I made. Real clever.

I actually stopped reading at "pathetic" but my periphery picked up your sweet-natured suggestion, some stuff about cheese and, oh yea, that part at the end about the kids.  I'm sure it all sounded more diplomatic when you wrote it so I won't hold it against you.

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

On 3/12/2018 at 9:00 PM, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Who cares if they find something else in the future? DE will just need to fix it too. Abandonning the idea of fixing balance problems will only make the game more and more unbalanced with each new things DE adds, and, just in case you don't know, DE is actualy trying their best at balancing the game, as requested by many players over the years. Banshee's RQ was nerfed for a reason, a reason that also applies to Spin-2-win, Ash's old Bladestrom, and so on.

 

The common excuse of all the people defending broken, powercreep and cheese brainless gameplay. Tell me, how much did it hurt you to see Banshee's RQ disapear? 

Banshee's RQ is didn't disappear even though you probably wish it did. It is pretty much Excalibur's old radial Javelin now. Still works like a charm. 

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

50 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Ignore function definitely does not prevent you from being matched with someone.  Tried it and disproved it 5 minutes later by being matched with someone I'd just ignored.  There is no reprieve from the slide attackers.  I have at least one in almost every game I play, and often 2 or even all 3 teammates scoliac/atteraxing it up.  Talk about variety.

Forgive me but unless you provide proof of this I just don't believe it. That or people are slide attacking and doing damage without using maiming strike and you hate it so much you see maiming strike behind ever corner. I NEVER see maiming strike being used. In my entire time playing maybe once or twice....certainly not EVERY MATCH I PLAY.

edit: maybe this is a PC thing? Cause obviously my comment is based on PS4 play. And on PS4 we also don't have to deal with macros. Which might be a reason it isn't as evident. In that case I really don't want to see something changed in the game because of a PC issue vs a console issue.

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)LubzinNJ

[Vindicus8235]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Forgive me but unless you provide proof of this I just don't believe it. That or people are slide attacking and doing damage without using maiming strike and you hate it so much you see maiming strike behind ever corner. I NEVER see maiming strike being used. In my entire time playing maybe once or twice....certainly not EVERY MATCH I PLAY.

Are you going to hold yourself to the same standard and provide evidence that you never see maiming strike being used?  You'll have to take my word on it, and I'll take yours.

You still playing The Division?

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

2 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Are you going to hold yourself to the same standard and provide evidence that you never see maiming strike being used?  You'll have to take my word on it, and I'll take yours.

You still playing The Division?

Fair point regarding same standard...no I'm not going to record because I don't even know how to. But I just can't believe that you're seeing one in every single match when my own personal experience is I never see them, unless it's a PC vs Console thing. I'm not making this up, I can't think of a single time off the top of my head I saw a person sliding away meleeing the crap out of an entire room though.

What does the Division have to do with this?

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

Just now, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Fair point regarding same standard...no I'm not going to record because I don't even know how to. But I just can't believe that you're seeing one in every single match when my own personal experience is I never see them, unless it's a PC vs Console thing. I'm not making this up, I can't think of a single time off the top of my head I saw a person sliding away meleeing the crap out of an entire room though.

What does the Division have to do with this?

It's a PC vs Console thing. Auto hot keys they use. It's not happening here on Console. 

[Vindicus8235]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Fair point regarding same standard...no I'm not going to record because I don't even know how to. But I just can't believe that you're seeing one in every single match when my own personal experience is I never see them, unless it's a PC vs Console thing. I'm not making this up, I can't think of a single time off the top of my head I saw a person sliding away meleeing the crap out of an entire room though.

What does the Division have to do with this?

Perhaps it's not as ubiquitous on PS4, I wouldn't know.

Just a friendly inquiry from a fellow Division player, as I saw you mention it some time back in the thread.

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

It's a PC vs Console thing. Auto hot keys they use. It's not happening here on Console. 

In that case leave the Console players alone and figure out how to solve what is clearly a PC only problem. This isn't a Maiming Strike problem it is a macro problem.

[EvilDarknessAlien]

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

6 hours ago, rune_me said:

Funny thing is, if you looked back at this entite thread, you’d see I started being very much against nerfing maiming strike. I use the mod all the time and don’t really want to stop.

But you and all tje other anti-nerf people have changed my mind. You people have done nothing but whine and moan and cry since tje very first post. You have given no reasonable arguments as to why maiming strike should not be nerfed, other than “it hurts muh feelings”. Frankly, I was so emberassed being part of that, that you guys managed to convince me, that nerfing maiming strike is for the better.

Pathetic. 

The ones making the positive claim are the ones who are obligated to prove their claim. This is how it works. The fact is that we do not have to give reasons why it should be nerfed...people who cry and whine for nerfs should give objective reasons why it should instead of coming up with arguments that essentially boil down to easily avoidable subjective sensitivities and acting like there is a problem as the departing position. 

What is happening here is that you took umbrage to me saying exactly this...which is how we got into a conversation in the first place...making your little spiel of histrionics all the more disingenuous. Good work.  

Have a issue with how others play the game? Play solo or team up with like minded people.

If you come crying for nerfs and attempt to prevent others from using tactics, strategies and play styles you personally do not enjoy...you better have a damned better reason than "whaaaa I no like! MUHHHH balance"....because you will be called out on that BS. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[rune_me]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Pathetic

And once again, I think we can all agree, if you start your post with a petty insult, everything that follows it will obviously be ignored. 

You’re too sensitive, my friend. I get that my opinions hurt your feelings and make you lash out in anger. But really, you should try not to let your emotions do your arguing for you.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 45 minutes, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 a dit :

Pathetic. 

The only thing that is pathetic is your lack of valuable arguments. You're just insulting others who do not think the same way that you do. You're not even worth our time.

We already exposed the problem, so there is no point in arguing with someone who thinks that anybody who's calling for nerfs is a whiny kid. 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

2 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Some of you are trying to turn this into some philosophical question where there must be "proof" that the slide attack combo is overpowered before you will entertain that it might be.  There's observational evidence that suggests it's overpowered but there's no test to run that proves, well, much of anything philosophically speaking--since we insist on taking it there.  Try to explain the color red to a man blind from birth so that he may "see" it as you do.  You can't.  Perhaps it's a limitation of language that can be solved in the future or perhaps it's an impossibility, but you're basically asking for me, and others, to describe red to the blind.  As I said a hundred pages back, everything posted here is opinion--from both sides.  Ultimately it's up to DE to use whatever metric they have to determine which side holds the more correct opinion.

Let's not forget that world on fire was not overpowered before the nerf change either, and was not altered based on how powerful it was in the upper tiers of the game, but because it was highly disruptive in lower tiers.  If DE concluded that world on fire was disruptive then slide attack spammers are disruptive as well, but in all tiers, as they do what Ember did/does only considerably better.

It is no philosophical question. There is also no observational evidence of anything buy some people being very loud how it upsets them and trying their level best to change the metric so other people can't use the metric they can easily avoid just so the game and everybody in it conforms to their subjective standards of what constitutes a good game.

Asking for arguments not founded in "it is a problem just because we say so" or "it is a problem because I don't like it" is actually pretty fair and a rational way to conduct a conversation. Especially considering that the move to get something nerfed is in fact depriving people of things they like and destroying play styles and thus holds repercussions for the entire community....and in this particular case...has effects for platforms that do not experience any of the issues you describe.

And that is aggravated by the fact that the issues so far described are not easily avoidable. They are not in fact inescapable for those who do not want to be confronted by them. You have other options. You have the option to play solo. You have the option to create your own team.   

The danger in those subjective sentiments devoid of objective arguments is that they create a loud noise of the minority that sure as hell influences decision making by developers. And that has more often than not resulted in the game being worse off in both the short and long run. It is dangerous. It is toxic. And it ruins games. 

A prime example IS Ember. After all of the huffing and puffing about how it affected lower level tiers...Ember is no more or less disruptive after her rework than she was before her rework. Everybody can still clear entire levels on the lower tiers. Yet Ember got considerably less viable in the higher tiers though...that is for sure. The same goes for Banshee. Aside from the fact that somebody now gets repetitive strain injury in their index finger...she still does exactly what she did before her rework. Neither of these frames are better off but got worse for higher tier game play and what is worse....the supposed issue was not solved and the game was barely affected except for ruining two frames. It didn't all of the sudden become better or more balanced by these nerfs. So I don't believe the "disruptive for lower levels" argument for one second. 

Now...of course...maintaining that MS and CO disrupt lower levels is kind of comical when we can wipe them out quicker and faster than new players can simply by using almost anything in our arsenal. If I go in with my Lenz or am forced into a low level and I use Equinox you can securely bet that no newbie gets a kill in. Hell...90% of the time when I use atterax I don't even switch to melee only (so no combo counter). I literally do not aim and just run while shooting my Akstiletto or Soma...or Amprex...or whatever. So the real issue is not MS or CO...it is the fact that high level players have to go into low level missions for all kinds of reasons. Of course...that is also a calculated move. Because there is nothing more motivating than the "wauw" effect and the promise of future power.  

And when we are talking about a game that has warframes in it that can literally wipe entire tile sets with the press of 1 single button...getting upset over a mod combo that you can easily avoid (really) as being unbalanced is, no matter which way you turn it, rather silly. 






 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

24 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

The only thing that is pathetic is your lack of valuable arguments. You're just insulting others who do not think the same way that you do. You're not even worth our time.

We already exposed the problem, so there is no point in arguing with someone who thinks that anybody who's calling for nerfs is a whiny kid. 

You indeed exposed yourself as a problem. When it comes to exposing anything about MS or CO...not so much.

You dragged up a couple of statements which all boil down to "I don't like it" and "my vision of how the game should be played is something everybody should be forced to accept and is superior to yours". 

In reality nothing of what you said is in fact a real problem except for your subjective experience. Objective arguments that show anything beyond your own subjective experience are entirely lacking and the entire discussion is driven by people like you telling us there is a problem just because y'all say so. Getting all uppity and mad when somebody asks for any tangible arguments. 

And it turns out that those "perceived" problems are easily avoided by either playing solo or with a pre-made team of friends.

Yet....instead of doing that...you come to the forum in an attempt to create traction for DE to force others to conform to your views and prevent people from playing the game they want to play just because it doesn't live up to your standards.  

And yes...that is entitled whining.  Don't want to be called out on it? Tough...don't do it.  

Now...of course I didn't call Rune_me pathetic because he has another opinion. I didn't call him pathetic at all.

But apparently comprehensive reading and language skills are out the window and language just means whatever we want it to mean as long as it suits our agenda...does it not? 

The reality is that I called his post where he stated he changed his entire point of view just because people didn't agree with him pathetic. 

Because that is what it is. 

Of course we also have his double standards, goal post shifting, contradictory statements and overall attitude of taking just about everything out of context and projecting it to the world at large...but lets not get into that. The guy has embarrassed himself more than enough for me to start copy pasting quotes to expose him further. 

Now....IF by any weird twist of fate you DO manage to come up with an argument that escapes the "hurrduurrr...I no like" levels of debating you displayed so far...we could have a valuable discussion. Because if you scroll back...that I what I asked for when mr. Rune_me took umbrage with that sentiment and got the silly notion I actually cared about his arguments instead of his lack of them. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

7 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

The only thing that is pathetic is your lack of valuable arguments. You're just insulting others who do not think the same way that you do. You're not even worth our time.

We already exposed the problem, so there is no point in arguing with someone who thinks that anybody who's calling for nerfs is a whiny kid. 

If you think the problem is maiming strike and slide attacks then you and the rest who think the same are sorely mistaking. People PC players use Macros/ AH keys or whatever you want to call them. Script keys. 

Here is a PC player slide attacking.

 

In the comment section a guy posted a script for slide attacking.

AHK script if someone need it

slideAttackActive := false

XButton2::

if (not slideAttackActive) {

slideAttackActive := true

Send, {LCtrl down}

Sleep, 15

MouseClick,left

Sleep, 190

Send, {LCtrl up}

slideAttackActive := false

}

Return

Console player cannot slide attacking nearly as fast and back to back like this. This doesn't exist on Console. We dont have maming strike users in every single game doing this. So to say it is a maiming strike thing is just flat out wrong. Console shouldn't suffer (as with most nerfs and buffs) along with PC. 

[Vindicus8235]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

It is no philosophical question. There is also no observational evidence of anything buy some people being very loud how it upsets them and trying their level best to change the metric so other people can't use the metric they can easily avoid just so the game and everybody in it conforms to their subjective standards of what constitutes a good game.

Asking for arguments not founded in "it is a problem just because we say so" or "it is a problem because I don't like it" is actually pretty fair and a rational way to conduct a conversation. Especially considering that the move to get something nerfed is in fact depriving people of things they like and destroying play styles and thus holds repercussions for the entire community....and in this particular case...has effects for platforms that do not experience any of the issues you describe.

And that is aggravated by the fact that the issues so far described are not easily avoidable. They are not in fact inescapable for those who do not want to be confronted by them. You have other options. You have the option to play solo. You have the option to create your own team.   

The danger in those subjective sentiments devoid of objective arguments is that they create a loud noise of the minority that sure as hell influences decision making by developers. And that has more often than not resulted in the game being worse off in both the short and long run. It is dangerous. It is toxic. And it ruins games. 

A prime example IS Ember. After all of the huffing and puffing about how it affected lower level tiers...Ember is no more or less disruptive after her rework than she was before her rework. Everybody can still clear entire levels on the lower tiers. Yet Ember got considerably less viable in the higher tiers though...that is for sure. The same goes for Banshee. Aside from the fact that somebody now gets repetitive strain injury in their index finger...she still does exactly what she did before her rework. Neither of these frames are better off but got worse for higher tier game play and what is worse....the supposed issue was not solved and the game was barely affected except for ruining two frames. It didn't all of the sudden become better or more balanced by these nerfs. So I don't believe the "disruptive for lower levels" argument for one second. 

Now...of course...maintaining that MS and CO disrupt lower levels is kind of comical when we can wipe them out quicker and faster than new players can simply by using almost anything in our arsenal. If I go in with my Lenz or am forced into a low level and I use Equinox you can securely bet that no newbie gets a kill in. Hell...90% of the time when I use atterax I don't even switch to melee only (so no combo counter). I literally do not aim and just run while shooting my Akstiletto or Soma...or Amprex...or whatever. So the real issue is not MS or CO...it is the fact that high level players have to go into low level missions for all kinds of reasons. Of course...that is also a calculated move. Because there is nothing more motivating than the "wauw" effect and the promise of future power.  

And when we are talking about a game that has warframes in it that can literally wipe entire tile sets with the press of 1 single button...getting upset over a mod combo that you can easily avoid (really) as being unbalanced is, no matter which way you turn it, rather silly. 






 

Most of this has been addressed in this thread already, it's incumbent upon you to do your homework at this point if you care to join the conversation as an informed participant, as I don't care to repeat or explain positions which I already have done so; often multiple times.  I realize the thread is almost prohibitively long at this point, but it's exhausting confronting identical arguments repeatedly. 

You have grossly misrepresented positions here as well as offered nothing more than hand-waving dismissals of any opinion in opposition to you own.  My posts are feedback, not truth claims, you seem to be missing this rather apparent distinction somehow.

As for it affecting PC more than PS4, not really my concern.  You fight whatever battle you need to in order to keep it how it is on PS4 and I'll continue mine for it to be changed on PC.