Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[Karaphael]

A wonderfull discussion and sound arguments on both sides but unfortunately we are forgetting the base setting of the game here. There are games that are difficult like dark souls series games with pvp like overwatch and then there are games like warframe where the basic setting is you ARE AN OVERPOWERED TENNO WARIOR IN AN OVERPOWERED WAFRAME ARMOR. This the base setting we are crazy strong and kill enemies by the hundreds. There is harder end game like sorties but on the solar map we are the gods. Sure there are some nerfs but they dont change the basic setting we meant to be overpowered. It is intended and if after playing a couple hundred hours you still dont get it then you either misread the game description or spent that time in the orbiter. Balance? what balance we are meant to be powerfull they cant change that because then it will be a different game. If you want challenge or balance then you are obviously playing the wrong game. this is also the reason this game is pve it is because we can be overpowered. 

[Midrib]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Yes. It is a very slippery slope that the OP is putting forward. If good range and getting kills is what annoys him, then by Earth logic he should be hating on all these things as well. Nerf any ranged weapons, Nerf AOE frames. Nerf anything that is capable of taking out at least three enemies in one go. What's the point in going after this one thing that is quite frankly out-classed by quite a few other builds like Status or Hunter Munitions? It's because he does not care about balance. He only cares about having his vision of "the perfect public squad" realised. One without Maiming Strike specifically.

He more than likely has a preferred method of doing things that someone else might consider irritating, as do we all.

Also, there have been a lot of sound arguments against the OP, which include these points.

No it isn't, because DE doesn't cater towards the OP's desires.

DE has always been against 1 thing, spammable & lazy AoE attacks, Whether it was Ember/Banshee/Saryn/Telos Boltace, it always was S#&$ that was spammable and lazy.

so no, Maiming strike getting nerfed isn't going to break the Dam on everything, its just a continuation of DE's stance against Idle gaming in general.

And again it doesn't matter if certain builds outclass Maiming strike vs level 150 when 90% of the game is placed under level 60. so really that argument in my eyes is incredibly weak.

the defense that something shouldn't be changed solely on the fact that it is outclassed by another build VS enemies that the majority of players never actually went up against is hardly logical in my opinion.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Midrib

[(PSN)RankRancid]

29 minutes ago, rune_me said:

There's a world of difference between giving players a couple of formas when they decided to change almost every single primary weapon in the game, and then compensate someones platinum expenses because they change a single mod.

If you think DE is going to return players platinum, I think you're going to be disappointed.

I don't expect anything. I just don't see them committing suicide by chasing away all the players that have spent boatloads of money on their game. I don't even care about maiming strike. My godly brakk riven, godly Zarr riven and godly vectis prime riven means I can play anyway I want. My speed volt doesn't even need maiming strike or my godly Jat Kittag riven to destroy. Blood rush and body count does enough.

I just don't understand why in a farming game which the goal is to finish missions in the fastest fashion to make farming more tolerable people would ask for nerfs. The only time I take my time through maps are when teaming up with friends that have just started. 

DE does have a reputation of protecting people that have spent thousands on plat to buy mods though. I haven't been here in a few months but unless DE has released Primed Chamber recently I'd think they still do. I could be wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time. 

Besides extermination mode where else will a maiming spin to win player be a problem? It's not like they can cover the entire map of a defence or survival like the pre nerf tonkor could. 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

4 minutes ago, Midrib said:

DE has always been against 1 thing, spammable & lazy AoE attacks

And quite a lot of our weapons can fit into that incredibly vague category. What is lazy, shifts depending on what person you ask. For example the aforementioned user who likes to occasionally peek out of a hole and yell "nerf shotguns" said he considers their potential to blast through a row of enemies, lazy. I'm sure there are some out there who think Condition Overload is far too powerful. I've already seen someone in my clan suggest a nerf to beam weapons again, particularly the Ignis, because they are so good now.

6 minutes ago, Midrib said:

so no, Maiming strike getting nerfed isn't going to break the Dam on everything

It will break the dam. Maybe not immediately. Maybe not tomorrow, or next week. But the same logic used to justify this nerf, can be used to justify the next. Especially with the OP's broad range + strength = overpowered definition.

8 minutes ago, Midrib said:

And again it doesn't matter if certain builds outclass Maiming strike vs level 150 when 90% of the game is placed under level 60. so really that argument in my eyes is incredibly weak.

That basically cancels out the argument against Maiming Strike as well.

[Midrib]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

And quite a lot of our weapons can fit into that incredibly vague category. What is lazy, shifts depending on what person you ask. For example the aforementioned user who likes to occasionally peek out of a hole and yell "nerf shotguns" said he considers their potential to blast through a row of enemies, lazy. I'm sure there are some out there who think Condition Overload is far too powerful. I've already seen someone in my clan suggest a nerf to beam weapons again, particularly the Ignis, because they are so good now.

again DE doesn't cater to anyone's desires, if they did Maiming strike wouldn't remain unchanged for this long.

& Its not really vague, 

Is it low maintenance, low effort, low cost, low risk, high reward, AoE, that you don't even have to aim?

If Yes, then it probably should be changed.

If No, then its fine.

If Maybe but it has some balancing aspects. like it requires Buildup or charging or it falls off over time or range, then it most likely is fine.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

It will break the dam. Maybe not immediately. Maybe not tomorrow, or next week. But the same logic used to justify this nerf, can be used to justify the next. Especially with the OP's broad range + strength = overpowered definition.

No it won't, the assumption that DE will nerf everything just because they nerfed 1 thing is just that, an assumption, and a weak one too.

If they wanted to nerf everything that is powerful they would've done so by now, they would've nerfed everything in sight back when Acrid was a thing.

1 nerf that falls in alignment with what the company has been always against isn't going to turn them into evil Nerfhammer devs that are out to get our gunz.

and It doesn't matter what the OP's definition of overpowered means, they don't knock on his door to take suggestions on what to patch next, neither do they knock on yours or mine. 

25 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

That basically cancels out the argument against Maiming Strike as well.

The argument that Maiming strike should be nerfed because its powerful was always null & void, it's not about its strength, its about how spammable & low effort it is.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RankRancid said:

I just don't understand why in a farming game which the goal is to finish missions in the fastest fashion to make farming more tolerable people would ask for nerfs. The only time I take my time through maps are when teaming up with friends that have just started. 

Who said the goal is to finish missions as fast as possible? That's certainly not the goal for me. You're making the same mistake as the OP, wanting to impose your game style unto the rest of us. DE has always shown that "as fast as possible" is not what they want from their game. By now it should be no surprise to anyone that anything that gets the job done "as fast as possible" will eventually get nerfed.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)RankRancid said:

Besides extermination mode where else will a maiming spin to win player be a problem? It's not like they can cover the entire map of a defence or survival like the pre nerf tonkor could. 

I already said I don't really think maiming strike should be nerfed. I understand where the OP is coming from, but I don't see it as more or less of a problem that several other mods that are only really very good when used in very specific combinations. 

[Valiant]

Eh, just go Mag and ruin their spin2win spam.

That or these people strongly defending spin spam should join 3 other players and see how many kills they actually get and how enjoyable it is. Much like putting 4 leechers together. I can see the issue with it but thankfully I haven't encountered loads and loads, yet. Though some people kinda just want to play the game to have fun and kill stuff, not have someone come in and clear the whole room for them while they sit watching. Nor should those people have to go to recruit and advertise 'Want to play with a group where I'm able to kill stuff and enjoy the main part of the game...'

10 minutes ago, Midrib said:

again DE doesn't cater to anyone's desires, if they did Maiming strike wouldn't remain unchanged for this long.

Wouldn't be too sure about that. Fairly sure people said the exact same thing about other stuff which was changed in the past, Zorencoptering/melee spin speed comes to mind.

'Guys, naysayers, it's not being changed because it's a feature etc. etc.'

Oh wait, now it's gone...

Edited March 15, 2018 by Valiant

[Maercurial]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Midrib:

And again it doesn't matter if certain builds outclass Maiming strike vs level 150 when 90% of the game is placed under level 60. so really that argument in my eyes is incredibly weak.

the defense that something shouldn't be changed solely on the fact that it is outclassed by another build VS enemies that the majority of players never actually went up against is hardly logical in my opinion.

A game should never be balanced with Low to Mid Level stuff in mind. That's a terrible design philosophy right there. You generally balance towards the Endgame because that's where players are ideally going to be at one point and where Weapons should be effective. You'll also aim at providing a sense of Progression and learning curve where players will notice a strength increase, and Warframe and every Looter ever does that by Power Creep that turns you into something that will destroy hordes of low level stuff.

When Balancing you'd want to aim for an efficient weapon that works against the highest available or easily reachable Content within a reasonable time frame.

That doesn't mean Weapons should be balanced with Level 200+ in mind now, but ~150 is reachable easily enough in Index and Medium length Survivals, Sorties are also up to level 100 so that's the absolute Minimum Level a weapon should be efficient at, otherwise it's crap.

Most Starchart Mission are a "do once to Unlock and forget" kinda thing anyway, so these low level Missions as a whole aren't the ones the games balance is or should be aimed at anyway. If you suggest to add more higher level stuff to the Chart tho then sure, I'm all up for more diversity there. We as the Tenno have moved on and left most of the Chart behind with no reason to go to 90℅ of these Missions. This is a Problem caused by a stagnated Star Chart that doesn't provide Lategame areas to go to, not a Problem of our weapons. They are fine, it's just that the enemies they're meant for are too rare. 

[(PSN)RankRancid]

7 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Who said the goal is to finish missions as fast as possible? That's certainly not the goal for me. You're making the same mistake as the OP, wanting to impose your game style unto the rest of us. DE has always shown that "as fast as possible" is not what they want from their game. By now it should be no surprise to anyone that anything that gets the job done "as fast as possible" will eventually get nerfed.

I already said I don't really think maiming strike should be nerfed. I understand where the OP is coming from, but I don't see it as more or less of a problem that several other mods that are only really very good when used in very specific combinations. 

I don't tell anyone to play the way i do. This game is all about resources and loot. I aim to get it the quickest I can after many years of playing this game. I do what I need and wait at the finish. I don't even start the timer if it's only 2 of us unless they just idling at the start. Obviously this doesn't count when going for high rounds but just doing alerts and general star chart play you can bet I'm going to be speeding through it all. 

 

[rune_me]

Just now, (PS4)RankRancid said:

I don't tell anyone to play the way i do. This game is all about resources and loot. I aim to get it the quickest I can after many years of playing this game. I do what I need and wait at the finish. I don't even start the timer if it's only 2 of us unless they just idling at the start. Obviously this doesn't count when going for high rounds but just doing alerts and general star chart play you can bet I'm going to be speeding through it all. 

 

Don't have a problem with that. Play the game the way you want. But in no way does that mean that that is the "Purpose of the game" for the rest of us. Or that that is what DE wants the game to be about.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

3 minutes ago, Midrib said:

Is it low maintenance, low effort, low cost, low risk, high reward, AoE, that you don't even have to aim?

Sayrn, Equinox, Ember (yes the current one), Vauban, Loki, Rhino, Limbo, Frost, Nidus, Atlas, Excalibur, Nova, Condition Overload/Primed Reach Lacera, Quanta, Ignis and many, many more can very easily fit into that category. 

8 minutes ago, Midrib said:

Its not really vague, 

DE's definition of OP changes with the communities thoughts. It's a constant grey area that at any moment can flick to your favoured weapon/warframe. 

9 minutes ago, Midrib said:

If Maybe but it has some balancing aspects. like it requires Buildup or charging or it falls off over time or range, then it most likely is fine.

And the meta Maiming Strike play-style does have drawbacks. For one, it's a hard mod to get hold of. It requires a specific weapon type; whips, which isn't the most popular of weapon types. It also requires you to be constantly slide attacking around the place, which is a play-style not many find appealing, especially when there are more powerful alternatives on offer.

15 minutes ago, Midrib said:

No it won't, the assumption that DE will nerf everything just because they nerfed 1 thing is just that, an assumption, and a weak one too.

If that were true, then there would be no nerfs. Everything will eventually get their turn under the nerf judgement whether we like or not. Especially if threads like this keep popping up. There will always be someone with a problem. And since mechanics and stats on things are always in a permanent stat of flux in this game, you simply cannot say "that will never ever be looked at".

16 minutes ago, Midrib said:

If they wanted to nerf everything that is powerful they would've done so by now

What makes you think that? Chroma was left alone for three whole years. I heard this same type of thing during "Should Prime Vaults have Accessory packs" debate.

17 minutes ago, Midrib said:

they don't knock on his door to take suggestions on what to patch next

He certainly acts like they do. 

18 minutes ago, Midrib said:

it's not about its strength, its about how spammable & low effort it is.

One could also say the same of things in the game, like the aforementioned frames and weapons. The list is endless and so are the perspectives on them.

Also it is about strength. If it was low effort and spammable but weak, no one would be complaining.

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

Imo efficiency is most important

Like who cares about kills, it's a PvE grind simulator. There was once a time when I used to crave having the most dmg dealt, but after I found out what this game was a grindfest, I stopped caring about kills, and more about skill, knowledge, and efficency

Edited March 15, 2018 by (PS4)PS_90210

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

DE's definition of OP changes with the communities thoughts. It's a constant grey area that at any moment can flick to your favoured weapon/warframe. 

Not really at all. It should be clear to anyone by now why DE nerfs something. If you didn't see the Ember nerf coming from a mile a way, you haven't been paying attention. And it had absolutely nothing to do with the communities thoughts. You look at something like Rhino, Vauban, Loki, no way do their fit into DE's idea of what makes lazy farming and they should be safe. Mesa is almost certainly already on their list for upcoming nerfs.

[Midrib]

12 minutes ago, Maercurial said:

A game should never be balanced with Low to Mid Level stuff in mind. That's a terrible design philosophy right there. You generally balance towards the Endgame because that's where players are ideally going to be at one point and where Weapons should be effective. You'll also aim at providing a sense of Progression and learning curve where players will notice a strength increase, and Warframe and every Looter ever does that by Power Creep that turns you into something that will destroy hordes of low level stuff.

Theres no doubt that balancing should be generally towards endgame, but what is going on with Warframe right now is that there is no Endgame, Sorties & Index are the closest thing to it, but Sorties are 3 missions per day that generally don't go over Level 110.

So while Yes Balance should be around Endgame, You can't really balance around Endgame if there is no endgame.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Midrib

[S.Dust]

just saying the only people who complain about maiming strike are the people who dont have it ( i own it but am not much of a melee person so im kind of on the who cares side).

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

@Midrib An example of truly overpowered would be the old Synoid Gammacor. That weapon did actually completely obliterate the game. It made any mission an absolute joke and rendered all other weapons completely superfluous. You literally did not need any other weapon in your inventory. Everyone was using it and those who weren't did rightfully feel like they were being punished for their inferior weapon choices. It was hands down the best weapon in the game at the time. Zero effort, hold down the button and just casually stroll through the level.

That was the sort of thing that really needed a nerf.

Maiming Strike is nowhere near that level. 

[Midrib]

28 minutes ago, Valiant said:

Wouldn't be too sure about that. Fairly sure people said the exact same thing about other stuff which was changed in the past, Zorencoptering/melee spin speed comes to mind.

'Guys, naysayers, it's not being changed because it's a feature etc. etc.'

Oh wait, now it's gone...

Not going to get into Coptering because its not really relevant to the argument at hand, but its pretty obvious why it was changed,  it doesn't really come from a balance standpoint as much as it came from a bad game mechanic that heavily restricted Melee weapons & movement.

[Midrib]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

@Midrib An example of truly overpowered would be the old Synoid Gammacor. That weapon did actually completely obliterate the game. It made any mission an absolute joke and rendered all other weapons completely superfluous. You literally did not need any other weapon in your inventory. Everyone was using it and those who weren't did rightfully feel like they were being punished for their inferior weapon choices. It was hands down the best weapon in the game at the time. Zero effort, hold down the button and just casually stroll through the level.

That was the sort of thing that really needed a nerf.

Maiming Strike is nowhere near that level. 

Again, I don't know if you are missing the point, its not about being overpowered. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Midrib

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

8 minutes ago, rune_me said:

If you didn't see the Ember nerf coming from a mile a way, you haven't been paying attention.

I did. Because quite a lot of people wanted it and were actively campaigning for it. I could see it was going to be nerfed the minute I first jumped into a mission with the new WoF, based on the fact that I knew people were going to complain about it. That is how quite a few nerfs have gone down in the past.

9 minutes ago, rune_me said:

And it had absolutely nothing to do with the communities thoughts

I absolutely had to do with the community. There were regular threads regarding WoF on here and on the subreddit.

10 minutes ago, rune_me said:

You look at something like Rhino, Vauban, Loki, no way do their fit into DE's idea of what makes lazy farming and they should be safe.

"Should be". 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

6 minutes ago, Midrib said:

Again, I don't know if you are missing the point, its not about being overpowered. 

The title of this thread and the reason why nerfs are even a thing suggest otherwise.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I absolutely had to do with the community. There were regular threads regarding WoF on here and on the subreddit.

There are regular threads to nerf a lot of things. As I said earlier, if all we had to do to get something nerf was to cry "nerf", then every frame in the game would be nerfed by now.

It has absolutely nothing to do with threads on this forum and everything to do with how something is used in the actual game.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

5 minutes ago, rune_me said:

As I said earlier, if all we had to do to get something nerf was to cry "nerf", then every frame in the game would be nerfed by now.

If enough people want it, it will happen.

DE said Vacuum wasn't going to be a thing for all Sentinels. Now we have it.

Prime Access used to have no separate Accessory pack at all. Now we have them.

Prime Vault used to work like the old PA. Now it has Accessory packs too.

Some nerfs have also been reversed thanks to the community, like the Vacuum nerf when it was spread to other Sentinels.

DE is very, very close with the community. Our thoughts very clearly influence their decisions.

The "it would have happened by now" thing, is simply not true. DE have shown that they will just leave things for a very long time and then just nerf them.

Edited March 15, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[kgabor]

28 minutes ago, rune_me said:

You look at something like Rhino, Vauban, Loki, no way do their fit into DE's idea of what makes lazy farming and they should be safe. Mesa is almost certainly already on their list for upcoming nerfs.

Vauban? Why?

I mean Bastille is certainly one of the best cc abilities in the game with the augment but it has its cons, like Ancient Infested/Nullifiers completely ignoring it and or shortening its duration and it's pretty much all there is to Vauban as all the other builds fall off at like lvl. 40 or so.

Add to it that Bastille is a 3. ability with the energy drain of a 3. and that it has kinda low-average base duration which has to be recast like every half minute with max duration.

Vauban as of now is pretty much an Excavation/Mobile Defense free win bot with Bastille with the other abilities being barely any useful (and are even less energy efficient than Bastille), no one uses it other than to troll with bounce pads or troll teammates by delaying a Defense mission, it's sure due for a rework but i doubt it would be a straight up nerf.

Edited March 15, 2018 by kgabor

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Vauban? Why?

Low effort, high reward AOE abilities like Vortex and Bastille.

According to some, that should fit under DE's "lazy methods" category and warrants a nerf.

[rune_me]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

If enough people want it, it will happen.

DE said Vacuum wasn't going to be a thing for all Sentinels. Now we have it.

Prime Access used to have no separate Accessory pack at all. Now we have them.

Prime Vault used to work like the old PA. Now it has Accessory packs too.

Some nerfs have also been reversed thanks to the community, like the Vacuum nerf when it was spread to other Sentinels.

DE is very, very close with the community. Our thoughts very clearly influence their decisions.

The "it would have happened by now" thing, is simply not true. DE have shown that they will just leave things for a very long time and then just nerf them.

So let's say if that's true. I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Developers listening to the community should be considered a positive, yes?