Melee 3.0 / Melee Overhaul

[sherif3000]

Melee 3.0 / Melee Overhaul

Let me preface by saying that it is unusual that DE is so torn on how melee should, they have all their other systems mathematically working in top notch order e.g. Gun, Warframe, Movement and other system but when it comes to melee they seem in the dark. However, I would like to look at this in a positive light as it would mean that DE indirectly acknowledges that there is much work to be done and not just tuning of the current melee system.

Some of my thoughts on the current melee system… melee is tied to a stance system with a few variations of attacking such as charge, channeling and maybe slide attacks (basically melee 2.0 – reference the Warframe Wikia for more info). I think imho the biggest drawback of the current system is that most of the melee gameplay is tied to the stance – there are no chaining of attacks other than it being tied to the stance e.g. I think only the parry attacks and finishers are gameplay elements that are somewhat “satisfying” (underwhelming really).

I think melee 3.0 requires a dramatic change WHILE keeping most of melee 2.0 elements (e.g. stealth, charge, channeling etc). Some inspiration that comes to mind is the movement 1.0 < parkour 2.0 – a dramatic change that was very well received. I think you can do this DE:)

Some suggestion…so DE themselves said they look at other games for inspiration e.g. Bayonetta, God of War, Devil May Cry, Dynasty Warriors…so I’d like to mention one more Onimusha and their critical hit system – totally different from Warframe.

Furthermore, and some of the bigger changes that I think WF’s melee system needs, HUD elements that can aid in melee combat, for example: a melee swing bar, kind of like how golf games work you have on the bar that shows you when the optimal time to ‘hit’ is (note, these are suggestion an exact mechanics can be discussed for future reference). Another HUD element could be a display of the attack speed (a metronome of sorts – maybe a blinking dot at the very basic) cause who knows how fast 1.25 per second is, this could aid in melee combat flow, rather than frantically button mashing.

Mechanical suggestion, “Block” + ”counterattack/Deflect”. Ancients and Grinner Scorpions have a grapple hook attack that reels in players imagine, when we block that grapple hook and then counter their grapple hook (block + ‘e’) and reel them in for a ground finisher. Bombards, imagine we blocks the rockets and in a short time frame (same: block + ‘e’) we could deflect the rocket so as to take as minimal damage as possible. Corpus, Moa ground shockwaves, imagine we block the ground shockwave and again in a short window of time we get an opportunity counter with a dash attack of sorts. There are more interactions like these such as absorb elemental damage as DE have hinted at in the past.  

Should these be coupled to the current system of stances? Again imho I don’t think so, how would it be decoupled from the stances if it should be? A secondary melee mode, how? While melee is active push the mouse scroll button (then the frame would go into a “Frame Fighter” mode:). For the most part the stance’s attacks would still be active only now a whole new set of mechanics become available.

So there’s my 2 cents in the melee discussion, I hope melee 3.0 becomes something special.

Edited March 18, 2018 by sherif3000

[Olianu]

2 minutes ago, sherif3000 said:

HUD elements that can aid in melee combat, for example: a melee swing bar, kind of like how golf games work you have on the bar that shows you when the optimal time to ‘hit’ is (note, these are suggestion an exact mechanics can be discussed for future reference)

No.  For anyone that would suffer a micron of lag, this is an awful idea as it would severely restrict the efficiency you'd be able to actually damage.  And once you're calibrated to deal with the lag, it will clear up, you'd have to re-calibrate again, and then the lag spike would hit again, making it a toxic and painful spiral downward.  By the way you made it sound, it would make the damage range instead of being as consistent as it usually is with most primaries and secondaries, making melee weapons seemingly less appealing in comparison to your primary/secondary arms.

[sherif3000]

Yes i agree which is why did put " (note, these are suggestions an exact mechanics can be discussed for future reference)" my point for suggesting this is to get a better flow for melee combat, perhaps the player is rewarded for timing the combos correctly with higher dps, if you don't you still get your set dps output.

[(XBOX)Volker9549]

I like the idea of additional block functions. Not a fan of extra ui though. Just allow a skill gap between people who want to use advanced stuff or just mash the button.

[chainchompguy3]

The primary issue DE is having with their current melee system, if I correctly understood what they said during Devstream 108, is that it is not designed for killing hordes, it's designed to look cool while you slice up 1 enemy throughout the entire combo.

 

Thus, they are looking into the combo animations/functions to make them more usable in this horde-shooter of a game.

 

I'm especially hoping they do away with the fact that most combos are just boring swings, but then after 6 attacks they have a function, like a  forced proc or finisher attack.

On paper, the player would attack something for every attack leading up to that, and then use the special on a heavy.

In practice, enemies are a bit too spread out, and thus you end up spending most of the combo swinging at air waiting for enemies to approach you (Because ALL melee attacks except slide attacks limit movement, with some rare exceptions.)

 

How would you go about fixing that?

 

I, personally, can't help but feel like the best melee option is to just do away with all the flashy stuff, and assign special attacks to special buttons.

-use right-mouse-button for charge-attacks, make blocking automatic 

-make use of the reload key, preferably for alternate attacks, such as lunges, throwable weapons, shockwave attacks, finisher-openers, etc.

-Aside from the unique effects listed above, all melee combos are just alternate ways of perfoming general attacks (Attack to the side, attack above, etc.)

-Make melee attacks not restrict movement so much, and with things like lunges, even enhance it.

[RagingReaper67]

53 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

The primary issue DE is having with their current melee system, if I correctly understood what they said during Devstream 108, is that it is not designed for killing hordes, it's designed to look cool while you slice up 1 enemy throughout the entire combo.

 

Thus, they are looking into the combo animations/functions to make them more usable in this horde-shooter of a game.

 

I'm especially hoping they do away with the fact that most combos are just boring swings, but then after 6 attacks they have a function, like a  forced proc or finisher attack.

On paper, the player would attack something for every attack leading up to that, and then use the special on a heavy.

In practice, enemies are a bit too spread out, and thus you end up spending most of the combo swinging at air waiting for enemies to approach you (Because ALL melee attacks except slide attacks limit movement, with some rare exceptions.)

 

How would you go about fixing that?

 

I, personally, can't help but feel like the best melee option is to just do away with all the flashy stuff, and assign special attacks to special buttons.

-use right-mouse-button for charge-attacks, make blocking automatic 

-make use of the reload key, preferably for alternate attacks, such as lunges, throwable weapons, shockwave attacks, finisher-openers, etc.

-Aside from the unique effects listed above, all melee combos are just alternate ways of perfoming general attacks (Attack to the side, attack above, etc.)

-Make melee attacks not restrict movement so much, and with things like lunges, even enhance it.

I agree with the intent of this idea, but I happen to like the flashiness, so an in-between would do well. A possible solution would be to reserve the flashy stuff for stance combos and make basic melee, well basic. For some weapons this is already the case, but it should be more standard to just shwack stuff on the go. I also agree with the auto-blocking since all you really have to do is hold a button anyways. This could be a way to open up the current block button for an alt button (so you can throw with a click rather than a hold (gun blades would still need to charge for balance)).

I can dig the grapple-counter thing. Though, to fit with auto blocking, it should happen when you have melee equipped and are taking the grapple head-on (cuz catching a grapple from behind is silly).

I also feel that some uniqueness between types of melee weapons is needed; not just aesthetically, but functionally. For instance, I should be able to snatch someone with a whip and jerk em around. Or maybe use a staff to sweep the legs for a takedown. There's a lot of possibilities with this approach and I feel that it would make trying different melee weapons, and melee in general, more rewarding. Also we need more gun blades (shotgun, burst, beam, etc.).

Additionally, I think it would be neat to expand on the unarmed option. I know it kinda goes against the idea of having an entire armory at your disposal, but sometimes I just wanna punch a dude in the face...with just my fist. Maybe throw in some grappling too.

Lastly, please be careful about how much inspiration is drawn from over-the-top video games. I'd rather keep the martial arts feel, rather than turn melee combat into Dynasty Warriors. I understand the desire to engage hordes, rather than single targets, by I honestly feel like this is already a well balanced feature. The weapons that should engage groups do, while the weapons that are rationally single-target do just that. I wouldn't be mad at some cool AoE weapons though, like innate blast damage. 

 

[blacklusterseph]

I think the point that @Olianu raised regarding the lag is super important. For me that and the desync just kills the more finesse Melee mechanics like blocking. It's not noticeable on lower levels, but as soon as you run anywhere with enemies that can one-shot you, then the melee story becomes really frustrating.

I actually thought while watching the janky movement and rubberbanding in Frame Fighter, that if they somehow were able to fix it there, then any netcode/hitdetection improvements could make it into the main game and maybe sort out melee for people who aren't running frames with invis or invincibility states.

Edited March 19, 2018 by blacklusterseph

[RagingReaper67]

4 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I think the point that @Olianu raised regarding the lag is super important. For me that and the desync just kills the more finesse Melee mechanics like blocking. It's not noticeable on lower levels, but as soon as you run anywhere with enemies that can one-shot you, then the melee story becomes really frustrating.

I actually thought while watching the janky movement and rubberbanding in Frame Fighter, that if they somehow were able to fix it there, then any netcode/hitdetection improvements could make it into the main game and maybe sort out melee for people who aren't running frames with invis or invincibility states.

Right. Anything that requires pin-point timing is pretty much a no-go.

Edited March 19, 2018 by RagingReaper67

[sherif3000]

I agree with all of you, If you guys do not agree with the melee swing bar that’s cool, (..there is a mechanic that’s in the game at the moment like it aka Bows and charged shots...just saying) but I can understand that you guys are not feeling it. However, the broader point I'm trying to make are suggestions for melee 3.0, and how a HUD prompt could aid in better gameplay. To further clarify,  I did not mention earlier, the prompts I hope to see are not the God of War type prompts i.e.  press “X” prompts, rather animation type prompts e.g. finisher animations etc…In other words Warframes own mix of HUD elements + animation prompts

[RagingReaper67]

3 minutes ago, sherif3000 said:

I agree with all of you, If you guys do not agree with the melee swing bar that’s cool, (..there is a mechanic that’s in the game at the moment like it aka Bows and charged shots...just saying) but I can understand that you guys are not feeling it. However, the broader point I'm trying to make are suggestions for melee 3.0, and how a HUD prompt could aid in better gameplay. To further clarify,  I did not mention earlier, the prompts I hope to see are not the God of War type prompts i.e.  press “X” prompts, rather animation type prompts e.g. finisher animations etc…In other words Warframes own mix of HUD elements + animation prompts

If they're subtle, then I don't think it would be problematic. I don't think most would see a benefit because timing in WF is pretty easy, but to those who would benefit I think this would be a good addition. Like I said, though, it would have to be super subtle so as to not clutter the screen.

I think the most viable argument against such a feature would be the lag, but that's not an every-player-problem.

[Drejzer]

Well, about the flashiness: we don't really get to witness it because when someone uses something other than slide attacks it usually devolves into holding [block] and spamming [e] or just spamming [e] which leads to using one or two combos from a stance, and every stance has at least one combo that requires timing with input... and now get a Volt or Valkyr in your team and have fun trying to perform anything different than spam-e combo.
Another rather annoying thing is when one combo requires pressing (back) mind-combo...

Edited July 9, 2018 by Drejzer

[RagingReaper67]

You can complain all you want, but combos are not that hard to pull off, even at high speeds. Stop trying to get DE to make Warframe lazy and just learn how to use the already great system.

[(XBOX)xNIGHTFLASHx]

 I run my hirudo with inaros and chroma and the reason for this is that it rewards you with health and a bigger health cap when you crit. Weapons like these which live off of blood rush and drifting cotanct/body count will be a lot less usable don't you think? Please tell me they are buffing crit damage crit chance and status chance. Is it curtains for weeping wounds and blood rush?

[RagingReaper67]

I see where you're going with this, but DE has yet to make game changing decisions without accounting for the things affected by the change. I have 100% confidence in DE and believe that they have already found solutions for all the problems people are asking about.

[(XBOX)WP ScorpionWind]

On 2018-03-18 at 5:15 PM, chainchompguy3 said:

I, personally, can't help but feel like the best melee option is to just do away with all the flashy stuff, and assign special attacks to special buttons.

-use right-mouse-button for charge-attacks, make blocking automatic 

-make use of the reload key, preferably for alternate attacks, such as lunges, throwable weapons, shockwave attacks, finisher-openers, etc.

-Aside from the unique effects listed above, all melee combos are just alternate ways of perfoming general attacks (Attack to the side, attack above, etc.)

-Make melee attacks not restrict movement so much, and with things like lunges, even enhance it.

        I think the biggest reason why this isn't already the system is because right now consoles, specifically the Xbox(I don't know, to what extent if any, PS4 support KB&M) are unable to do so due to the lack of buttons on a controller and the lack of keyboard and mouse support. I know for a fact that in Xbox's case being as that's what I'm on, that due to our inability to map effectively with not being able to map multiple things to buttons, or assign to button combos or pressing two at once for a different action, it makes it very difficult to do anything outside of the default setup. I have manged to make it work but it's kind of wonky. If and when Microsoft was to provided KB&M support, which at current is only rumored to be in the works but not confirmed, your stated idea would become possible.

        (This method requires an Xbox Elite controller) I hesitate to even talk about this, but another, very unlikely, option for such an idea, would be if DE was able to work it out with Microsoft, so as to make it so we could assign macros to the paddles of an elite controller and then DE was to add combo mapping to the game. It would basically add, in concept, 4 more separate inputs, to the controller allowing us to assign a special to a combo, and the combo to one of the 4 paddles. HOWEVER, this idea is very shaky at best, due to macros not currently being support on elite controllers, as I guess macros are not allowed in competitive play for whatever reason,Another problem is the price difference in controllers. A basic (no custom design), standard (Standard vs Elite) controller averages $60, where as a basic, Elite controller averages $150. That's 2.5x more. While I would say this is a good option in terms of function, it is not viable in terms of $$$ or in the fact that it would require immense amounts of cooperation between Microsoft and DE, and fair amount of programming and/or reprogramming on both companies. It would also open a large can of worms on Microsoft's part once other game companies caught wind of this, and many would want the same, inevitably causing problems for competitive play, due to players wanting to use macros as that's what they were use to.

        THUS!!! While I for one would like the idea of converting from a FPS style of control to a more RPGMMO style of controls, it would be very difficult to add it in at this time. If changes in support or dare I say, the list of things need for option two and/or competition regulations, I don't believe it to be something that can be implemented without causing series problems. While I know the game is not cross play, It seems that DE doesn't want the UI to be overly different other than based on the device used to control the game. My guess is to have PC using a RPGMMO style of controls and the other two use a FPS like style of controls would be difficult and problematic.

Edited August 12, 2018 by (XB1)WP ScorpionWind
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