Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, zWhiteKz said:

so u think scaling endless kuva not gonna break the game?

Scaling Kuva with a cap? No. The most damage that could be done is the Riven economy, which is more of a positive than a negative. No more 5000+ Riven's.

2 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

lol i think void key system is a prove that scaling reward is not the answer

Why? The old Void wasn't a broken mechanic. It was really the closest thing we had to endgame. Also, again the rewards should always equal the time/effort involved. The current endless Kuva is just not worth it. Either it gets changed, or I have no doubt it'll be another forgotten game mode, like Lunaro or PVP in general.

Your thread has done nothing at all to sway anyone who says "Scale the reward because it's hard". You just quoted a perfect world/scenario as if that would somehow make everyone change their minds. But again, perfect worlds don't exist, so your whole premise is pointless. You don't actually have an argument against scaling Kuva.

[Toran]

How can people applaude this clown math?

It's possible to solo the fastest Kuva missions in less than 3 minutes with far less stress than the survival missions (unless you go afk there...). If I ignore the very bad missions (e.g. killing Lech Kril...), most missions time around the 4 minutes (or less) the OP mentioned. That's about 300 Kuva/min with resource boosters (wouldn't farm Kuva without that...).

With Kuva Survival however, you can hope to scratch those 300 Kuva/min, at best. That is if you have a Nekros/Hydroid along, if nobody messes around with the life supports or life supports doesn't bug around and having your Smeeta's charm proc here and there.

From something that takes far more effort than your average Kuva missions, I expect better rewards (don't you argue with relics, we're here for Kuva!).

[fluffysnowcap]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Scaling Kuva with a cap? No. The most damage that could be done is the Riven economy, which is more of a positive than a negative. No more 5000+ Riven's.

In a case the rewards should out scale the enemies

[zWhiteKz]

Yes im a clown, a clown that actually try to think of something rather than catering to "Scaling everything is fine". I love WF and can u say u can do i dont know an hour of flood ? (even though yes you can do flood endless but dont tell DE ) remember that you can do endless kuva as long as u want and when ever u want but u can only do 1 floor and 5 siphon each hour so for the love of DE stop try to come up with kuva/min flood/siphon vs endless (even though u should ... ehhh this kinda doesnt make sense).

With the negatitivy aside i come up with an idea (of course it shjt but it something)

New resource: Kuva Cloud

  The kuva we get is kuva in it liquid from, this new resource is a new type of kuva or kuva smoke. This is the unrefine to kuva and need to be refine for it to turn into liquid kuva. But it come will a twist, this resource only available only in mission, once u leave/finish mission this resource will "disapear" or if u die. This resource drop when ever u kill fortress type enemies (cause Grineer on fortress inhale too much kuva? idk ok) and act like normal pickup like nano spores.

Pro: - Can later refine to become kuva in mission aka more kuva

Con: - Another stuff to keep an eye to while in mission.

Kuva Cloud interact with fortress mission

  Remember how tower become a "siphon" when u equip them with kuva catalyst? This resource will work like this. Collect x Kuva Cloud by kill x Grineers and then go to a current operating siphon tower and trade in so when they finish they will reward base amount + x kuva after the siphon is finished. This can work like the trade in system of the Index, the more u collect the higher the bonus is with no downside so u can carry as much as u like until u die. So will this u can collect a lot of kuva cloud and hope when smeeta buff u turn all in a siphoning tower and get even more kuva from it. And for the other mission, remember every tiles set have a "dead end" tile, just simply put a "Kuva refiner?" (i'm bad with name) then in every fortress mission u can also gain an amount of kuva too, making fortress mission more apeal than they are right now. With the resource like this u will have to chose either go with a Smeeta for "a chance" of getting x2 buff for more kuva to collect OR a sentinal to suck as much as kuva cloud u can get( they will dispear when u not pick them up due to WF performent issue) for a chance of burst x amount of kuva. This way u can get more net kuva value without touching the "scaling" stuff and make mission type on fortress more interactive rather then frost globe > wait 1 min > rinse and repeat but actually encourage player to be more active. Of course idk if this resource should be boosted with booster/smeeta or not because it gonna make kuva gain double dip and if i learn anything of Path of Exile then double dip is not good ( x2 kuva cloud then x2 again after refine which gonna weight the booster too heavy hence screaming Pay to Win). And we all know we can cheese this stuff with Spdva which make enemies spawn and go after u faster and so make the Kill per second high = more cloud but this is not a bad thing this is actually a risk/reward factor (more u kill the better but u gonna get swarm by enemies).

So this is my latest (stupid) idea for more interactive gameplay with more kuva reward without touching the "scale" of course many of u will say "This doesnt change anything and we want scaling reward cause enemies become harder". Rememer that u dont build a house with broken foundation aka WF scaling that why our new content from DE is not on high lv but instead interesting mechanic.

So leave ur "constructive" feedback or just ignore this if u think it too stupid, it fine.

Also Bonus for anyone who said scaling is ok in WF and this is one year ago and still plague WF to this day

 

[fluffysnowcap]

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

New resource: Kuva Cloud

Javlok much, adding new resources is hardly a good solution, any ideas we come up with should not involve making the game considerably more complex.

[zWhiteKz]

1 hour ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Javlok much, adding new resources is hardly a good solution, any ideas we come up with should not involve making the game considerably more complex.

so i guess back to yelling scaling right? ... k then wake me up when u have better idea than scaling 

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

so i guess back to yelling scaling right? ... k then wake me up when u have better idea than scaling 

Wow, so scaling is always bad and there is no balanced way to implement it. Glad to see you have an open mind...

How about Kuva Towers start at 50 Kuva per and scale up by 50 per tower until it caps at 300. Oh wait, I forgot, every mission has to be optimally completed by those who like fast missions but those that like long missions are forced into completing fast missions everyplace else.

[zWhiteKz]

i never said scaling is bad, i want scaling but right now WF back-end dont support scaling content... also if it scale to 300 im ok with it tbh as long as it dont scale > flood then it fine 

Edited April 3, 2018 by zWhiteKz
typo cause im a "strawman"

[Qdub]

i feel like im getting more kuva in normal kuva missions than endless

[fluffysnowcap]

If the basic rewards are increased it will make kuva syphons/floods redundant, if there is no bonus for staying longer it defeats the point of it being endless. Quite frankly I'm unable to imagine an alternative other than scaling which does not add unneeded complexity or entirely replaces kuva syphons/floods. And i feel that if nothing is done about this game mode it will be left by the way side like the regular endless missions outside of intended farming have been.

 

@zWhiteKz

So because of this impasse we are having, can you please explain to me like I'm a child why scaling can not be the answer to making the content feel more rewarding with out replacing kuva syphons/floods.

[Bao]

I was skeptical of the endless Kuva when it first came out and 200 per tower sounded pretty bad.

 

I decided to run it once without a booster, got about 4-5k maybe? Then with a booster 8k, then with booster and smeeta well over 10k. Sure, it may not be quick and great as Siphons/floods, but in the time you're waiting for those to come up, tossing in a survival isn't going to hurt you any more than the others will. I personally prefer the survival more now, because of the fact it is a later game map, there's a lot more activity to it so it keeps you on your toes, and it's a different kind of pacing than other ones. It's faster than excavations and feels like an endless mobile defense.

 

Maybe it's just me and I enjoy being able to run a variety of missions instead of burning through the same map over and over again.

[DrBorris]

2 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

i never said scaling is bad

But you did say...

16 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

 wake me up when u have better idea than scaling 

Maybe you did not intend to say that you don't like any scaling, but you can't deny that your words definitely give that impression.

 

At the end of the day I am being selfish, yes. I want the Kuva Survival node to be the place where you can go and expect to have an endurance run, pushing out anyone who wants to do a short mission. But... given that it would be the only node on the chart that would be like that (and there are no exclusive rewards), I think it would be okay.

[zWhiteKz]

10 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

If the basic rewards are increased it will make kuva syphons/floods redundant, if there is no bonus for staying longer it defeats the point of it being endless. Quite frankly I'm unable to imagine an alternative other than scaling which does not add unneeded complexity or entirely replaces kuva syphons/floods. And i feel that if nothing is done about this game mode it will be left by the way side like the regular endless missions outside of intended farming have been.

 

@zWhiteKz

So because of this impasse we are having, can you please explain to me like I'm a child why scaling can not be the answer to making the content feel more rewarding with out replacing kuva syphons/floods.

ffs WF build doesnt base on endless content the game right now is base on lv 0 - 180 hence the MR cap and scaling mechanic is a mess not to mention the damage system back-end is also "Old" right now making it harder and harder for DE to add new content each patchs do u not see it??????? fix the "BASE" mechanic 1st then we can talk about scaling reward.

Also u show me a vid with a zephyr ( her 3 just minigate all the projected damaged - she a defensive heavy frame ) use lanka gas build ( with a riven .... ) fighting corpus ( which only have 1-2 units that have armor ) and dismissed that scaling armor/hp/dame/lv is fine? really???????? 

Edited April 3, 2018 by zWhiteKz
typo cause im a "strawman"

[zWhiteKz]

6 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

But you did say...

Maybe you did not intend to say that you don't like any scaling, but you can't deny that your words definitely give that impression.

 

At the end of the day I am being selfish, yes. I want the Kuva Survival node to be the place where you can go and expect to have an endurance run, pushing out anyone who wants to do a short mission. But... given that it would be the only node on the chart that would be like that (and there are no exclusive rewards), I think it would be okay.

scaling enemies is BAD right now soon™ be fixed? Scaling reward is NOT but right now we dont have the foundation for a "solid" scaling mode yet 

[fluffysnowcap]

4 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

ffs WF build doesnt base on endless content the game right now is base on lv 0 - 180 hence the MR cap and scaling mechanic is a mess not to mention the dame back-end is also old right now making DE harder and harder to add new content each patch do u not see it??????? fix the "BASE" mechanic 1st then we can talk about scaling reward.

Also u show me a vid with a zephyr ( her 3 just minigate all the projected damaged - she a defensive heavy frame ) use lanka gas build ( with a riven .... ) fighting corpus ( which only have 1-2 units that have armor ) and dismissed that scaling armor/hp/dame/lv is fine? really???????? 

So you're not even attempt to entertain any viewpoints other than your own. Talking to you is literally a waste of my life. Enjoy your knee jerk reactions on every new patch this game makes. And have fun throwing away every single good idea that has been presented so far, like i don't know replacing the abort option in survival with a emergency withdrawal, or according to you having a temporary band aid that adds a hard cap on enemy scaling to prevent as you put "The Division difficulty mode".

[zWhiteKz]

what idea did i said is bad except scaling reward supass flood like u wish? that the ONLY idea i agaisnt and as plenty people point out why ( Void key intensify ) and where did i said add hard-cap to enemies? what is this come from? please dont add words to my mouth .....

Also we all waiting for the new damage system and enemies rework FYI 

Edited April 3, 2018 by zWhiteKz
Add more of my "strawman" point

[DrBorris]

5 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

scaling enemies is BAD right now soon™ be fixed? Scaling reward is NOT but right now we dont have the foundation for a "solid" scaling mode yet 

To what degree is scaling bad at the moment? Even up to level 150 (around an hour in Kuva Survival) any well equipped, four person pub group can hold it together. And this is unorganized. If you synergize and have a pan handling up to 200-250 is possible. And I don't mean by means of cheese but rather using game mechanics as intended. Obviously when you resort to cheese there are no limits to what we can face. And I find it better to feel forced out of a mission because you are being outmatched rather than getting bored (the basic premise of scaling).

And if you cap scaling rewards in a way like how I mentioned earlier, it actually makes a diminishing returns relationship between the time spent in the mission and your rewards. So you are not encouraged to go forever, just for awhile.

I will agree that scaling is in a pretty bad place at the moment, but it is not horribly broken beyond any usefulness. Many still find enjoyment even above level 100 enemies, you may not find that fun but I (and many others) do.

[zWhiteKz]

Yes scaling from 0 - 1.5 hour is fine but the scaling from 2 - 3 and then 4+ is broken .... pls google Warframe scaling and you will know why and also most people ask for "scaling reward because i fight hard enemies" they want infinite scaling which the the bad point here. And u know if endless kuva scaling go through people gonna do 4-5hrs long and the pub match gonna be full of try-hard 1h suvive which not everyone can do and dont balance the game just the upper top of the player base ...

Edited April 3, 2018 by zWhiteKz
Add more of my "strawman" point

[fluffysnowcap]

13 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Also we all waiting for the new damage system and enemies rework FYI 

That kinda got killed thanks to the community taking one look at it and going WTF what have you done to blast rag doll and viral and let's not even mention "I.P.S" and for damage 3.0 will be here in the next major patch and will always be here in the next major patch since november 2016'.

 

17 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

'...'and where did i said add hard-cap to enemies? what is this come from? please dont add words to my mouth .....

I didn't. a hard cap on enemy level was a rhetorical point i made earlier when you said enemy scaling was broken for the fifth or twentieth time and needed to be changed fast. But i wouldn't expect you to pay attention to our opinions, ideas and suggestions or appreciate band-aids we offered for "your" problem.

 

22 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

what idea did i said is bad except scaling reward supass flood like u wish?

Yes i do want it to surpass floods, but have a significant time increase that could prevent you from playing the flood mission your comparing it to, and surely broken enemy scaling would help keep the kuva gains down from a scaling reward, as opposed to...

33 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

scaling enemies is BAD right now soon™ be fixed? Scaling reward is NOT but right now we dont have the foundation for a "solid" scaling mode yet 

... as opposed to running a mission with scaling rewards, and enemy that scaling to a less extent, it almost sounds like you don't want scaling now as it will be to hard for poor diddums here, Having a scaling with incredibly tough enemies allows the reward to scale to a large extend with out running in to an overabundance of a resource you want tightly controlled.

[zWhiteKz]

wow u actually embrace the idea of broken mechanic scaling!! idk wherether be sad or not. Like i said dont balance the game just the upper top of player base, the game dont just have "endure" runners. And yes i agaisnt the current scaling system right now, it just bad and force player to play either defensive frame to keep oneself alive or mass cc to minigate 100% damage of the enemies deal or %hp ability to kill enemies that supass the threshold of weapon killing them so tell me where the "diversity" of modding comming into kill these kind of enemies when they became like that? do a 1hr then 2hr then 3hr then 4hr of survive and u will see this clear as day problem also not everyone can do 1hr+ content so like i said dont balance the game like that it just gonna hurt WF in long term 

[fluffysnowcap]

29 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Yes scaling from 0 - 1.5 hour is fine but the scaling from 2 - 3 and then 4+ is broken .... pls google Warframe scaling and you will know why and also most people ask for "scaling reward because i fight hard enemies" they want infinite scaling which the the bad point here. And u know if endless kuva scaling go through people gonna do 4-5hrs long and the pub match gonna be full of try-hard 1h suvive which not everyone can do and dont balance the game just the upper top of the player base ...

 

39 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

... And have fun throwing away every single good idea that has been presented so far, like i don't know replacing the abort option in survival with a emergency withdrawal....

 

12 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

This is a separate issue that can be solved by adding the ability to leave survival in much the same way you can leave interception and defence missions.
changing the basic mechanic of abort mission into extract for only survival will surely solve this issue.

I have already provided this answer twice already, how much clearer do I have to make it? Giving people the ability to leave survival with out the rest of there squad is something which is needed, and just goes to demonstrate the age of this game mode, And the fact it needs a update.

[AJ5511]

So these 11 pages for this post are basically saying we shouldn't have kuva scaling at endless becuse the enemey difficulty is not worth the amount of kiva farmed?

[zWhiteKz]

if the ability to leave survival is a good idea dont u think DE already do that .... i mean like u said they did that for defense and intercept then why not survive while they at it? please try to think more deeply before making any asumption

[zWhiteKz]

1 minute ago, AJ5511 said:

So these 11 pages for this post are basically saying we shouldn't have kuva scaling at endless becuse the enemey difficulty is not worth the amount of kiva farmed?

enemies is just not hard. They scale to the billion and billion of eHp not to mention around 200+ they 1 shot almost any frame and they shot shjt load of bullets at once with pin point accuracy idk if i can keep explain how broken scaling and AI mechanic anymore for each person come in and asking before doing some research about this matter 

[fluffysnowcap]

16 minutes ago, AJ5511 said:

So these 11 pages for this post are basically saying we shouldn't have kuva scaling at endless becuse the enemey difficulty is not worth the amount of kiva farmed?

nail on the head, much!?

 

@AJ5511 Do you have any input from an outside perspective?

Edited April 3, 2018 by fluffysnowcap