Melee 3.0. Attempting to Assist Transition. (Updated, See Page 2)

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Red_12hino said:

I love channeling! I usually run a crit hit channeling build with

blood rush

primed fury

Berserker

Pressure point

Killing blow

Reflex coil

Organ Shatter

And what ever damage mod depending on if my melee is slash, impact, or puncture.

I hit red crits with close to every hit.

I will be sad if they pull channeling!

That sounds interesting. Having been playing for so long, I fall onto the meta. I know metas are bad, but unfortunately, you can't knock what is effective. I am trying to help preserve Channelling because I believe it helps contribute to the diversity within the game & increases the number of potential playstyles.

I'd be upset to see it go as well.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On August 24, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Thaylien said:

Okay, I've been there for all of them, plus the twitter and interview responses DE have given about this, so I think I can explain:

Channelling, as a function, is being moved because less than 1% of the player base actually uses it. Weird, I know, but DE have cut content like this before, if it opens up other options.

It's also a really confusing option for a lot of the players, with the mods and abilities that affect it being worded kind of poorly. One of the biggest problems is that people think that Drain Abilities (like Ivara's Prowl) are 'channelling abilities', which is where a lot of confusion comes in. The Zenurik Focus School has a node that increases Channelling Efficiency, and people think it will make their abilities better, then complain when it doesn't. Meanwhile, people that draw their melee and click the mouse button for the first time often don't understand why their energy keeps going down or what affects this function. Then there's the mods, where you have ones like Life Strike, which sound straight-forward, but people that have no idea what Channelling is just equip them and don't know why they don't work (I've had to explain it to so many people...).

And finally, the modding for Channelling is extremely limited. Most people will focus on getting a good build for the weapon itself and never consider Channelling as a viable function when all it does usually is increase damage for energy drain (which most people would rather not have). Then, when you think about it, at what point are any of the mods outside of Life Strike that are Channelling based actually better than putting on more damage, status, critical and so on?

Basically it's the three parts; the mods aren't better than regular mods, the function is never explained except by other players or the Wiki, and nobody really uses it even when they know it exists.

Moving on.

Heavy Attacks have always needed a separate button, having only one melee button means that DE can't make their game engine not do the first melee swing and then start charging the Heavy Attack. Try it with the current system, you will swing once, then charge. When working with weapons that have slow swing speeds, like Hammers and Heavy Blades, this is pretty awful, it slows everything down.

Under the current system for Stealth Attacks, too, this means that a player will often waste their 8x bonus damage on that first 'ghost' hit, and then the Heavy Attack won't get the bonus.

And with some of our melee weapons, like the Redeemer, the Sancti Magistar, and the Zenistar being designed around their Heavy Attacks, it has always been annoyingly limiting to have to swing first, then charge.

DE have wanted to do this, in some way, for literally the entirety of Melee 2.0, they just haven't had the opportunity to.

That said, it's also functional. The Heavy and Light attacks being separate means several things are now possible:

1. Cancelling out of combos and heavy attacks by rolling
2. Chaining a Heavy Attack into your combo freely, between any of the attacks
3. Preserving the basic vertical ground-slam, while adding in the Directional version on the Heavy Attack
4. Making mods and weapons specifically designed around the Heavy Attack.

Genuinely, having the Heavy Attack be a dedicated button for use only when you're in Melee Only mode? That's a huge step up for people that really enjoy that style of play, and it also means that players who just want to use guns, and only melee using the quick-melee function, can still do that.

But...

With all that said...

We really need to see more of it, how it affects Abilities, what's happening with the Combo Counter, what each of the Channelling mods will become for the Heavy Attacks, what's going to happen to the combo-counter affected mods like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, that sort of thing. All those other considerations need to be previewed by DE before we, the un-informed, can really give a full round of feedback.

I explained the majority of what you are advocating already. I'll just give attention to whatever I haven't already mentioned. Please read through the topic for everything else.

Channelling being poorly described within the game doesn't make it bad. It makes DE bad for not describing it better.

If you'd read the OP, I did my best to go in-depth on how an alternative approach on Channelling would work. I've yet to explain how the mods for Channelling & the Combo Counter would work with this, but I do indeed have a plan for them.

How does having 2 separate buttons make attack cancelling easier? The command layering I'm proposing could just as easily have the same of whatever attack cancelling methods that the 2 button approach would have.

Edited August 31, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(XBOX)MAKEthemSUPPER]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I'd like to see a complete product, that has not yet been put into the game. Once it's in the game, it's my experience that DE will want it to stay that way. You know, it takes time, effort, & money for changes. Would you rather we shout it down now, or wait until DE has already put it in game after they put in that time, effort, & money? We know most of the major details. Channelling is being removed almost completely, save for Parry. The heavy attack will get a separate button, is going to be the attack that deals bonus damage according to the Combo Counter, & will derive a cost from the Combo Counter. I believe it was also mentioned that Parry will Channel by default, meaning that Parry would become an energy drain.

I've yet to mention what I believe is bad about the changes, other than for Parry (but I'll mention it again).

As I stated, Channelling shouldn't need to be removed, only improved. If you read the OP you'll know my proposal. I reason I like that idea more is because it would allow all melee attacks, not just heavy attacks, to be capable of becoming empowered. If only heavy attacks get empowered, then that limits the options of attack that players can take without having to spend their Combo Count. I'd assume some players like the idea of being able to do heavy, normal, or rapid attacks, but if only heavy attacks are empowered as DE intends, that devalues the other types of attacks, & makes heavy attacks cost Combo. Some will say that the heavy attack deserves special treatment like this, & that normal & rapid attacks should be seen as only a means to an end, which is increasing Combo for a heavy attack. Whereas with the idea I gave, allowing all attacks to be capable of being empowered, we could expand their purposes, while Channelling would become more worthy for use & much better for utility, based on the current mods for Channelling. Heavy attacks would be sluggish, yet efficient, because a single heavy attack is still one attack. Rapid attacks would have higher DPS, meaning that in the time it takes to perform a single heavy attack, a player also could've done 3-4 rapid attacks, whose damage sum would be higher than a single heavy attack, which would make them inefficient. Normal attacks would be between heavy & rapid, for balance. When you tie this concept into the Channelling revision idea in my OP, then you see why a heavy attack is efficient but slow, while rapid attacks are for high DPS but inefficient. One single attack, any attack, will cost Combo; a single heavy attack would cost the same amount of Combo as a single rapid attack.

I've already explained multiple times why the heavy attack doesn't need a separate button. It's unnecessary.

The change to Parry qualifies as a nerf to Parry. If Parry is going to Channel by default, by extension that will cost energy by default. Unless DE has a way to keep the option of Parrying without having to Channel, that's a nerf.

Yeet.

[(XBOX)WP ScorpionWind]

Sense the announcement of Melee 3.0 I have not liked what I have heard. While I think improving the game and continually adjusting the system to function more fluidly I don't like the idea of what's being done here for a large variety of reasons. (Each spoiler box holds the reason as title above to better the size of the comment)

No Combo multiplier For Regular Attacks

Spoiler

For one, changing thr combo multiplier from effecting all swings and only the heavy attacks, will drastically hurt if not kill crit builds as a system and as an alternative to status builds. I personally Run Dual Keres and have them set as a crit build and am only working on getting the riven for it. (Build is linked here Riven status at end of it's description available by click on name right of the stars) If you watch any melee weapon when changing the combo counter, take my build linked above as just an example (Input set riven stats, set attack to normal, nb of status effects to 2 and berserker buffs to 3, to better see the impact but not required), you can see that changing that combo counter, even by .5's, drastically changes the damage output. By removing the effects of combo multiplier from normal hits, the damage output is drastically lessened. So much the point that crit designed builds are almost useless because our damage output is now not getting the steadily climbing damage output.

By doing this we make more builds and melee with the better CC & CD even weaker than status based ones. Right now my dual keres with the above build, and holding a minimum combo multiplier of 2.5x, and blood rush (covering that next) is closer to on par with a good chunk of status build, which are already considered superior to nearly all crit builds. Doing such a change only spreads that gap even further and the the list of "good" weapons even smaller than it already is. It also lessens the customization and personal style from player to player, translation more cookie cutter and forcing us to all do the same thing, which I might add has been amongst the list of reasons of what killing games of this kind, and lets face it we already see this problem in the game, like in eidolon hunting and many players requiring one of for frames to participate  All because crit based for melee is now almost totally useless. And simply buffing damage of melee weapons isn't going to fix that because status weapons would still get that buff, thus not proportioning the lose that crit builds specifically face.

Combo Multiplier Scaling Based Mods

Spoiler

Another problem we face is the little to no info/system for mods such as blood rush. I use blood rush such as an example due to it being basically a must have in 90% if not more of crit builds. This mod is built specifically to increase cc by the formula of,  Crit Chance = Modded Crit Chance × (1 + Blood Rush Multiplier × Combo Multiplier) as we well know. Now by taking out combo multiplayer from the equation we now no loner have but basically a primed true steel. This can be seen somewhat by my build linked build as just an example. This in result makes all crit builds that use blood rush which again is at least 90% to have absolutely no scaling factor and runs into the the same problem of crit builds, and crit strong melee's not being able to get their damage closer to those of status based weapons. This all leads to the same problems mentioned in the last reason.

Removing Channeling & the Impact on Channeling Based Mods

Spoiler

While this isn't as wide spread a problem due to the lack of people who understand/ know about channeling which from my understanding is more on the PC side of things due to it not being defaulted to a button that they use regulatory like it is for console. It's also kind of on DE for not having really anything that explains the existence and purpose of channeling in the tutorial. But as my entire frame build is built around Life Strike, which is a channeling based mods, that I use regularly to regulate my health, and basically complete 99% of missions i do without a single down or death, and basically survive longer than every higher MR I've come across sense using it, I figure I'd at least touch base on it. I'm not against the removal of channeling as long as life strike was modified so as to still be able to turn it on/off at will I. As at least some people know channeling is kind of a thing. It basically increase damage and when active it bypass the activation of a finisher attack on a enemy that the random low MR in the squad used a stun ability like umbra howl but all you wanted to do was slash through them as you ran by (I know we've all been there at some point or another.) There are also a small list of mods that are tied to it and its use. One of those mods is Life Strike.  But as I said, as long as it was still controllable in activation I have no problem with channeling being removed.

Only a couple of the problems and are the top three. the others ranging to it's a rather LARGE change to the whole game system and it's going to cause a lot of workarounds, it's going to impact rivens, many players builds, and other minor issues.

Edited October 7, 2018 by (XB1)WP ScorpionWind
wasn't finished and accidentally posted so had to throw a rap up in.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 2018-10-07 at 12:36 AM, (XB1)WP ScorpionWind said:

Sense the announcement of Melee 3.0 I have not liked what I have heard. While I think improving the game and continually adjusting the system to function more fluidly I don't like the idea of what's being done here for a large variety of reasons. (Each spoiler box holds the reason as title above to better the size of the comment)

No Combo multiplier For Regular Attacks

  Reveal hidden contents

For one, changing thr combo multiplier from effecting all swings and only the heavy attacks, will drastically hurt if not kill crit builds as a system and as an alternative to status builds. I personally Run Dual Keres and have them set as a crit build and am only working on getting the riven for it. (Build is linked here Riven status at end of it's description available by click on name right of the stars) If you watch any melee weapon when changing the combo counter, take my build linked above as just an example (Input set riven stats, set attack to normal, nb of status effects to 2 and berserker buffs to 3, to better see the impact but not required), you can see that changing that combo counter, even by .5's, drastically changes the damage output. By removing the effects of combo multiplier from normal hits, the damage output is drastically lessened. So much the point that crit designed builds are almost useless because our damage output is now not getting the steadily climbing damage output.

By doing this we make more builds and melee with the better CC & CD even weaker than status based ones. Right now my dual keres with the above build, and holding a minimum combo multiplier of 2.5x, and blood rush (covering that next) is closer to on par with a good chunk of status build, which are already considered superior to nearly all crit builds. Doing such a change only spreads that gap even further and the the list of "good" weapons even smaller than it already is. It also lessens the customization and personal style from player to player, translation more cookie cutter and forcing us to all do the same thing, which I might add has been amongst the list of reasons of what killing games of this kind, and lets face it we already see this problem in the game, like in eidolon hunting and many players requiring one of for frames to participate  All because crit based for melee is now almost totally useless. And simply buffing damage of melee weapons isn't going to fix that because status weapons would still get that buff, thus not proportioning the lose that crit builds specifically face.

Combo Multiplier Scaling Based Mods

  Reveal hidden contents

Another problem we face is the little to no info/system for mods such as blood rush. I use blood rush such as an example due to it being basically a must have in 90% if not more of crit builds. This mod is built specifically to increase cc by the formula of,  Crit Chance = Modded Crit Chance × (1 + Blood Rush Multiplier × Combo Multiplier) as we well know. Now by taking out combo multiplayer from the equation we now no loner have but basically a primed true steel. This can be seen somewhat by my build linked build as just an example. This in result makes all crit builds that use blood rush which again is at least 90% to have absolutely no scaling factor and runs into the the same problem of crit builds, and crit strong melee's not being able to get their damage closer to those of status based weapons. This all leads to the same problems mentioned in the last reason.

Removing Channeling & the Impact on Channeling Based Mods

  Reveal hidden contents

While this isn't as wide spread a problem due to the lack of people who understand/ know about channeling which from my understanding is more on the PC side of things due to it not being defaulted to a button that they use regulatory like it is for console. It's also kind of on DE for not having really anything that explains the existence and purpose of channeling in the tutorial. But as my entire frame build is built around Life Strike, which is a channeling based mods, that I use regularly to regulate my health, and basically complete 99% of missions i do without a single down or death, and basically survive longer than every higher MR I've come across sense using it, I figure I'd at least touch base on it. I'm not against the removal of channeling as long as life strike was modified so as to still be able to turn it on/off at will I. As at least some people know channeling is kind of a thing. It basically increase damage and when active it bypass the activation of a finisher attack on a enemy that the random low MR in the squad used a stun ability like umbra howl but all you wanted to do was slash through them as you ran by (I know we've all been there at some point or another.) There are also a small list of mods that are tied to it and its use. One of those mods is Life Strike.  But as I said, as long as it was still controllable in activation I have no problem with channeling being removed.

Only a couple of the problems and are the top three. the others ranging to it's a rather LARGE change to the whole game system and it's going to cause a lot of workarounds, it's going to impact rivens, many players builds, and other minor issues.

I don't mean to be rude here, you may want to do some edits. It's difficult to follow your points.

The issue I see is that removing Channelling & limiting the buff of the Combo Multiplier to heavy attacks only is limiting to the build diversity of weapons.

Removing Channelling throws a monkey wrench into how to keep the current Channelling mods relevant under DE's planned system. Not impossible, just more difficult. Making Channelling more difficult to utilize, if at all, will indirectly hurt Channelling builds unless it's somehow buffed to reflect its usefulness.

Limiting the Combo Multiplier to heavy attacks discounts potential use of regular attacks & devalues them, which I mentioned in a reply to @(XB1)MAKEthemSUPPER. He quoted that reply just above you.

I wouldn't say that the changes as currently planned by DE would be the sole reason that crit builds die. It's mostly because the status effects of Corrosive, Viral, Toxin, & Slash are extremely powerful given the current mechanics of the game. No other status effect is as useful for damage or utility. Corrosive is simply necessary because of armor not being balanced. The status of Viral doubles all damage of all sources regardless of any resistance to Viral (yes, that means Viral is OP). Toxin & Slash simply stack DoT.

1. Armor is OP, & demands armor stripping effects.
2. Viral is OP because of what I just stated, making it useful in all scenarios instead of just some.
3. All other status effects have little practical use beyond Crowd Control, which frame abilities do a better job at. The only time I considered Cold was for Synthesis targets to unveil Rivens (no damage, no abilities, no traps). Innate effects such as on Artax don't qualify because other weapons invariably deal more damage.
4. Toxin & Slash are actually pretty balanced as is, but should probably be tweaked. It's more that the other status effects are simply not up to par for anything other than Condition Overload builds.
5. Corrosive, Viral, Toxin, & Slash have one thing in common... damage. Players want everything to die obscenely fast (the speed here is the problem, not the fact that enemies die) because they're either tired of these samey enemies, missions, & tilesets, or they believe that the goal is to actively trivialize everything in the biggest gaming power trip ever. Also... enemy drops. The difference between those two feelings is how much the game has been played (veteran, overplaying), but they cycle between each other. The experience of grind is lessened by diverse experiences, which Warframe doesn't offer enough of. Players also want more damage because of the abominable level scaling which does nothing for creating new experiences & just makes the game more tedious.

Furthermore, when you mention crit builds, I believe you mean "Pure Critical Build". Those types of builds have been dead since Harrow's introduction update, the creation of orange crits. I won't deny that the death of Pure Crit Builds is bad, because it is, but crit still exists as a way to enhance Toxin, Slash, & Viral. Also because more damage is undeniably good. There are two types of meta (boring/godlike) builds, Status Builds, as in "Pure Status Builds", & Hybrid Builds, which is usually status & crit combined together, but can refer to any build, meta or otherwise, that can be considered exceptional.

Edited October 12, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

START UPDATE HERE

I've recently been told that DE will be going through with their own changes.

I'm not sure if this is rumor, but the one who told me described some of the changes that they believe will be in Melee 3.0. I haven't been able to confirm this but it generally follows along with what DE has stated in the past that they intend to do with Channelling & Combo in Melee 3.0.

With the Heavy Attack still being the only attack benefiting from Combo:

1. It will be an attack which spends the entirety of the earned Combo when used.
2. The system will be called "Rage", in which higher Combo is higher Rage.
3. Rage will be inheriting many aspects of both Channelling & Combo. Rage uses Combo as resource, using the Heavy Attack to spend & benefit from the Combo Multiplier, renamed "Rage Multiplier".
4. With Rage being a merge of Channelling & Combo mechanics, most mods previously having to do with Channelling & Combo will now affect the same thing. That being the Rage system.
5. The manner in which Combo is earned is still planned to be faster. It is implied that the threshold to earn Combo Multipliers has been massively lowered. Combo is of course still earned with regular attacks, just that they won't benefit anymore.
6. Rage can be enhanced further by completing & chaining the stance combos in the planned melee stance changes (I wasn't able to find details on the stance rework).
7. All melees will definitely be buffed in base damage by ~3x to make up for the loss of our current meta.

I haven't heard anything more about Parrying.

If this all occurs together, Combo builds such as with Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds, believe it or not, will be minimally affected (quick melee abuse, such as with Lesion, will be dead though, as will Spin2Win, R.I.P.). Combo Multiplier will be easier to earn, & all melees are getting massive buffs. With both of those together, not only will these new Heavy Attacks be spammed, but they will deal, most likely, up to 12x the damage on average (~3x base damage (×) 4x Combo Multiplier) compared to what we currently see on a no Combo melee strike (that's if the execution of these Heavy Attacks are properly paced), & that's without Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds. I shouldn't have to tell anyone how strong that would be.

What I see, however, is a relegation of Heavy Attacks to being more so for single tank targets, whereas I would have liked a Heavy Attack to be considered a fodder crowd haymaker, with the introduction of new Rapid Attacks for single target, & Mid-Speed Attacks for inbetween balance, all of which could be equally enhanced by my previous ideas for a Channelling & Combo rework, seen earlier on this same topic.

I can only imagine some cases where this proposed Heavy Attack will successfully strike multiple targets (enclosed areas & small spaces such as corners & corridors, melee type enemies, & crowd gathering frame abilities such as Nidus' Larva & Vauban's Vortex).

From here on, I will assume that DE's proposed Melee 3.0 changes are set in place just waiting for introduction. With that in mind, there are a few mods that need to be adjusted. True Punishment, Enduring Strike, Corrupt Charge, & Focused Defense.

True Punishment & Enduring Strike need to be changed because they are competing with Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds. I have an idea of how True Punishment & Enduring Strike could be changed. Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds do not need changing. I will need graphs to attempt to describe the plan better, which I'll do next post (when I have time). For now, the basic idea is that True Punishment & Enduring Strike will become exponential buffs according to the Combo Multiplier, while Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds will remain multiplicative as they are now.

Corrupt Charge likewise is competing with Killing Blow. Since its downside is minor compared to other Channelling mods, it could just be buffed a small amount while nerfing Killing Blow a similarly small amount. It could also become exponential like True Punishment & Enduring Strike, but would need a greater downside to reflect that.

Focused Defense exists as a way to improve the tankiness of Parrying. I've yet to devise something for Focused Defense that specifically fits within DE's plan because I haven't seen the details on that aspect. If someone knows please tell.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[voltocitygel]

I like almost all of your ideas here. The parrying is what I don't agree with. Parrying should either be timed and completely block attacks, or have a reduction. Not both. Stunning against melee and non projectile attacks seems fun, and makes sense. My recommendation? Let parrying block 100% of non projectile attacks, and a % of the damage of projectiles. It's essentially doing the same thing- it's just artificial and bypasses possible RNG bullS#&$(both against you and for you). I like your ideas for explosive attacks- even a shield couldn't reliably defend against a point blank explosion.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

4 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

I like almost all of your ideas here. The parrying is what I don't agree with. Parrying should either be timed and completely block attacks, or have a reduction. Not both. Stunning against melee and non projectile attacks seems fun, and makes sense. My recommendation? Let parrying block 100% of non projectile attacks, and a % of the damage of projectiles. It's essentially doing the same thing- it's just artificial and bypasses possible RNG bullS#&$(both against you and for you). I like your ideas for explosive attacks- even a shield couldn't reliably defend against a point blank explosion.

Ya, my Parrying suggestion I felt wasn't as coherent as it could've been. You did get most of it right.

Why can't it have both? What about the difference between timed & sustained Parrying? You would just prefer more simplicity right?

Dagger block. 35% damage reduction changes to 35% chance of damage immunity (though I wonder if they could exist together). Timing improves that chance, or, if I borrow part of your suggestion, a timed block will have 100% chance immunity. I'm fine with that. Explosive & AoE still exceptions.

The reason I wanted the RNG to stay is so that Parrying wouldn't be abused if the Parrying were to be sustained. You're idea of having Parrying be 100% immune to melee attacks would harm the point of existence for melee only units.

As for Channelled Parrying, the Combo Tier will increase the defenses accordingly. This is where pure immunity could be achieved.

The only mechanics I'm unsure about are reflection & deflection.

I hope this explanation helps.

Edited October 12, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[voltocitygel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Ya, my Parrying suggestion I felt wasn't as coherent as it could've been. You did get most of it right.

Why can't it have both? What about the difference between timed & sustained Parrying? You would just prefer more simplicity right?

Dagger block. 35% damage reduction changes to 35% chance of damage immunity (though I wonder if they could exist together). Timing improves that chance, or, if I borrow part of your suggestion, a timed block will have 100% chance immunity. I'm fine with that. Explosive & AoE still exceptions.

The reason I wanted the RNG to stay is so that Parrying wouldn't be abused if the Parrying were to be sustained. You're idea of having Parrying be 100% immune to melee attacks would harm the point of existence for melee only units.

As for Channelled Parrying, the Combo Tier will increase the defenses accordingly. This is where pure immunity could be achieved.

The only mechanics I'm unsure about are reflection & deflection.

I hope this explanation helps.

Yeah, it helps explain a bit. The main reason I think the damage immunity (not the stun) from melee should be constant is because you can't block while attacking. Then, at high levels you have to choose between attacking and blocking anyway, no? And you can only block in one direction at a time, in any case. Sure, it makes enemy melee units less dangerous overall (for melee users), but they are mostly cannon fodder anyway.

i feel this way partially because I really don't like that blocking(fully)/staggering melee attacker's currently costs energy. The stagger, I can understand, because it goes beyond a simple parry. But blocking a melee attack is not difficult. 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

57 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

Yeah, it helps explain a bit. The main reason I think the damage immunity (not the stun) from melee should be constant is because you can't block while attacking. Then, at high levels you have to choose between attacking and blocking anyway, no? And you can only block in one direction at a time, in any case. Sure, it makes enemy melee units less dangerous overall (for melee users), but they are mostly cannon fodder anyway.

i feel this way partially because I really don't like that blocking(fully)/staggering melee attacker's currently costs energy. The stagger, I can understand, because it goes beyond a simple parry. But blocking a melee attack is not difficult. 

Ah. I have a tendency to forget about level scaling because I view it as something that doesn't belong in a game such as Warframe. I believe it is an aspect that does more harm than good. I tend to exclude it from my idea process because of that. Not to say I hate it in all cases (Destiny did scaling better, but failed in other areas), but I don't believe it is appropriate for the type of game Warframe is, as it is thus far.

I don't think we should assume that we won't see more diverse enemies, especially melee ones. I actually expect DE to keep trying to create new enemies because it helps reduce the feeling that the currently available ones are cookie cut.

I don't think I understood the second part of your reply. Blocking(fully)[<??]/staggering melee attacker's currently cost energy? Only if Channelling. You run Channel Tank build?

Edited October 12, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[voltocitygel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Ah. I have a tendency to forget about level scaling because I view it as something that doesn't belong in a game such as Warframe. I believe it is an aspect that does more harm than good. I tend to exclude it from my idea process because of that. Not to say I hate it in all cases (Destiny did scaling better, but failed in other areas), but I don't believe it is appropriate for the type of game Warframe is, as it is thus far.

I don't think we should assume that we won't see more diverse enemies, especially melee ones. I actually expect DE to keep trying to create new enemies because it helps reduce the feeling that the currently available ones are cookie cut.

I don't think I understood the second part of your reply. Blocking(fully)[<??]/staggering melee attacker's currently cost energy? Only if Channelling. You run Channel Tank build?

I agree that scaling could be significantly improved. I wouldn't say it has no place- but as it is now, It goes from unnoticeable to far too extreme in the blink of an eye.

You're right there. here's hoping to more enemy variety in the future!

Yeah, thats what i meant. Currently, completely blocking damage and staggering melee attackers costs energy. I do not run a build like that, lol. I'm sorry if it was phrased poorly, I wrote that comment pretty quickly while on break at work. I was trying to express how much i hate the current channeled blocking mechanic. 5 energy per block is absurd, given the rate of fire that some enemy weapons have. And that's ignoring the fact that staggering a melee attacker is not a guarantee. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by voltocitygel

[voltocitygel]

(delete this please, i pressed quote instead of edit)

Edited October 12, 2018 by voltocitygel

[dorkzillaa]

On 2018-08-30 at 5:51 PM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

That sounds interesting. Having been playing for so long, I fall onto the meta. I know metas are bad, but unfortunately, you can't knock what is effective. I am trying to help preserve Channelling because I believe it helps contribute to the diversity within the game & increases the number of potential playstyles.

I'd be upset to see it go as well.

Channeling as implemented was never efficient enough to even be worth looking at. The baseline energy requirements needed to be way lower, along with the mods supporting it being MUCH increased in effectiveness.  I always liked the idea of using the channeling button as the combo modifier, where each stance has it's usual pauses and block modified combos, but additionally gets access to a "channeled" combo for a cost of energy.  Ideally this would have been a separate combo from your stance, maybe something unique to weapon class, but even just an empowered version (increased damage, range, and the mentioned "ghost" weapon aura) of existing stance combos would have been nice.

[voltocitygel]

51 minutes ago, dorkzillaa said:

Channeling as implemented was never efficient enough to even be worth looking at. The baseline energy requirements needed to be way lower, along with the mods supporting it being MUCH increased in effectiveness.  I always liked the idea of using the channeling button as the combo modifier, where each stance has it's usual pauses and block modified combos, but additionally gets access to a "channeled" combo for a cost of energy.  Ideally this would have been a separate combo from your stance, maybe something unique to weapon class, but even just an empowered version (increased damage, range, and the mentioned "ghost" weapon aura) of existing stance combos would have been nice.

This is pretty much exactly what i was trying to say when i was complaining about channeling. 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

11 hours ago, dorkzillaa said:

Channeling as implemented was never efficient enough to even be worth looking at. The baseline energy requirements needed to be way lower, along with the mods supporting it being MUCH increased in effectiveness.  I always liked the idea of using the channeling button as the combo modifier, where each stance has it's usual pauses and block modified combos, but additionally gets access to a "channeled" combo for a cost of energy.  Ideally this would have been a separate combo from your stance, maybe something unique to weapon class, but even just an empowered version (increased damage, range, and the mentioned "ghost" weapon aura) of existing stance combos would have been nice.

17 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

I agree that scaling could be significantly improved. I wouldn't say it has no place- but as it is now, It goes from unnoticeable to far too extreme in the blink of an eye.

You're right there. here's hoping to more enemy variety in the future!

Yeah, thats what i meant. Currently, completely blocking damage and staggering melee attackers costs energy. I do not run a build like that, lol. I'm sorry if it was phrased poorly, I wrote that comment pretty quickly while on break at work. I was trying to express how much i hate the current channeled blocking mechanic. 5 energy per block is absurd, given the rate of fire that some enemy weapons have. And that's ignoring the fact that staggering a melee attacker is not a guarantee. 

Yes. The idea in my OP was about making it so that Channelling would cost Combo instead of energy. Since the base cost is 5 energy, then it would cost 5 Combo. The damage would scale normally as the current Combo mechanic does, except that Channelling mods would increase it. Killing Blow for example would buff the damage of each Combo Tier by 120%. Tier 1 at 1.5x, or +50% damage, would become 2.1x, or +110% more damage.

Merging Channelling & Combo this way means that Channelling & Combo mods would end up being for the same thing. AFAIK this is true for DE's plan as well.

On 2018-10-10 at 5:56 PM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

True Punishment & Enduring Strike need to be changed because they are competing with Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds. I have an idea of how True Punishment & Enduring Strike could be changed. Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds do not need changing. I will need graphs to attempt to describe the plan better, which I'll do next post (when I have time). For now, the basic idea is that True Punishment & Enduring Strike will become exponential buffs according to the Combo Multiplier, while Blood Rush & Weeping Wounds will remain multiplicative as they are now.

Thinking about it now, the biggest difference between DE's plan & my idea, is that theirs utilizes the Heavy Attack exclusively, while mine maintains the classic nature of Channelling as we know it. I find my way better because it permits the player to choose whichever attack they see fit. Not so in DE's plan. Their plan is Heavy Attack all the way. Furthermore...

On 2018-10-10 at 5:56 PM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Focused Defense exists as a way to improve the tankiness of Parrying. I've yet to devise something for Focused Defense that specifically fits within DE's plan because I haven't seen the details on that aspect. If someone knows please tell.

I have absolutely no idea how DE intends to rework Focused Defense.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(XBOX)WP ScorpionWind]

On 2018-10-13 at 8:58 AM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Yes. The idea in my OP was about making it so that Channelling would cost Combo instead of energy. Since the base cost is 5 energy, then it would cost 5 Combo. The damage would scale normally as the current Combo mechanic does, except that Channelling mods would increase it. Killing Blow for example would buff the damage of each Combo Tier by 120%. Tier 1 at 1.5x, or +50% damage, would become 2.1x, or +110% more damage.

Merging Channelling & Combo this way means that Channelling & Combo mods would end up being for the same thing. AFAIK this is true for DE's plan as well.

OK but what about channeling mods like Life Strike? It's purpose doesn't add damage rather it acts as a player support. In this case it would not make sense to base cost for it on combo because it wouldn't help the combo damage. So what would be the cost to use it?

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

13 hours ago, (XB1)WP ScorpionWind said:

OK but what about channeling mods like Life Strike? It's purpose doesn't add damage rather it acts as a player support. In this case it would not make sense to base cost for it on combo because it wouldn't help the combo damage. So what would be the cost to use it?

How exactly does a differing use, other than damage, warrant an alternative resource cost? I'm not seeing the reasoning behind that. That's almost like saying Rhino's Roar & Iron Skin should cost a different resource, other than energy, because they don't cause damage like Charge or Stomp. Radial Blind doesn't cause damage. We have a whole laundry list of frame abilities that don't cause damage. Should they all cost some special resource like Nidus' Mutation Stacks?

This is not to suggest that Nidus' Mutation should be removed, as gimmicks are okay with spare use, but you mean to introduce a completely new resource on reasoning that would consequently have to apply to everything else in the game. Nidus in this case has his gimmick because of lore reasons, not because his abilities are somehow special, out of the ordinary, or outside the box, & his gimmick further serves to, *potentially*, make him a frame that requires little energy expenditure, which would be a functional reason that he has his gimmick.

Focused Defense doesn't increase damage either, & Enduring Strike & Enduring Affliction only increase damage due to damage based status effects. Life Strike is similar.

This suggestion would make the game more complicated than it needs to be.

What we could do, is suggest a new weapon that has its own special resource. For example, something like Arca Titron. The resource in question would be specific to the weapon, & exist for lore &/or functional reasons.

Edited October 19, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom